Leaning sinking trap houses at Sparta?

What is the latest on the sinking and leaning trap houses at Sparta? Is the IDNR on this? Does this affect target flights?

 

If the Trap Houses are not Situated Correctly they will be throwing Erratic Targets, that are not Correct.

GB..........................................DLS

 

Trap Houses not in Specifications should Absolutely not be Used, and I urge Competetion Shooters to refuse to shoot targets Thrown from THEM.

GB....................................DLS

 

This is probably part of the new and improved ATA, you know moving in a Fanasstastic Direction and all ... If you have a few drinks you will never know the difference ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


Illinois Policy
21 hrs ·
With a growing backlog of unpaid bills and the nation’s worst unfunded pension liability, Illinois is in real trouble. Social service agencies are going out of business. Community colleges and state universities are cutting staff, classes, and are losing students galore. People are leaving the state. And nobody does anything about it.

We’re truly in a sorry state.

This was posted on FaceBook this morning ... Prettiest sight I ever seen was Illinois in my rear view mirror as I was leaving ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Before I would believe they have leaning and sinking trap houses at Sparta I would have to see pictures of them. I have talked to several people who were there last summer and fall and they did not see any. Is this just some more of the propaganda that gets put in here?

Ross Randall

 

I'm going to be there for the US Open. I'll check and see and report back.

 

"Propaganda" is something that is questionable, not sure anything of that nature has ever been posted "in here " ... I do know that anything that has ever been in question (posted) has been proven beyond any questionable doubt by someone, anyone, and more times than not multiple people ... I have not been to the WSRC and gave my word a long time ago that I would never go there with any intention of shooting but if by chance I am in the neighborhood I might stop by, but I have been told by several people that are friends of mine that there are some trap houses that are in fact sinking, knowing them as I do and based on their higher degree of honesty, I would not doubt their word ... Take a transit with you so you can verify it if its not noticeable to the naked eye ... Please report back, no Propaganda please ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

PROPAGANDA : 20/30 Million dollars generated in the local and regional area in and around Sparta, headed in a "Fantastic Direction", the biggest little shoot in the world (the grand) , etc ... If you need more propaganda the ATA sells it by the bushel, hear it makes great fertilizer like BS ...

 

wpt is absolutely correct in stating : "I do know that anything that has ever been in question (posted) has been proven beyond any questionable doubt by someone, anyone, and more times than not multiple people ..."

You won't find much propaganda here and you'll learn that fact pretty quickly if you stick around here for a while.

The report of some of the WSRC traphouses sinking came directly from the ATA. It was mentioned in the Executive Committee minutes of August 1, 2016 and can be viewed on their website for those that wish to verify it for themselves. (I suggest this for those who think this is a fake news site)

It should look something like the below and the item of interest is #5:



HB

 

Thanks, HB

So, either the houses aren't sinking and we just spew "propaganda" OR

The houses aren't sinking and the ata report is more BS

 

Flyersarebest,

Now you know that we only "report" and the reader "decides."

All we can do is try to point them to the truth. And sadly, sometimes posters don't even believe the truth when they read official documentation.

I recall one poster who believed the WSRC electric bills were fake. I sent in a FOIA request myself to verify its authenticity. I reported that I received an identical invoice copy validating the invoice posted earlier but the poster was steadfast in his belief that it was not real. Oh well!

HB

 

I owe an apology. I do see they should be on it. I hope they are. There has been so much negativity on here against the ATA and their membership that I figured wrong.

It is pretty simple no matter what you on here want to think and say the ATA will continue.

I have not been to Sparta, but I have a campsite at the Cardinal center that I have had for three years. I do enjoy going there 3-4 times a year. Not sure about what will happen this year. I am going to see cancer doctors on Monday to get set for chemo but if all goes well I will be there donating again this year. LOL I have been fortunate and won a few dollars in the past, but never enough get rich. Just enough to keep putting in the pot, so to say.

Ross Randall

 

Ross, Randall,
People make mistakes, as I said and its been proven once again by the Amazing Hb, the man knows his tuff ...

You will be in our prayers, hopes that God watches over and guides you as you fight the fight ... "NEVER GIVE UP" ... This is what was engraved on Reggie Jakimowski"s (sp)? trigger guard of the Model 12 he used when he ran 100 from the 27 yard line at the Grand when it was still in Vandalia ... Please keep us updated on your progress ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Ross Randall,

No apology necessary. You offered your opinion and asked if the report of the WSRC sinking traphouses was propaganda. I gave my answer based on what I had read and provided my source. That's what most of us do here . . . separate the facts from fiction and you shouldn't misinterpret our written words as being negative (though it is sometimes easy to do). In my view there is nothing wrong in challenging any statement made on this forum when the search for truth is done respectfully.

It is not only a right for members to ask questions and challenge the leadership of any organization when they fail to communicate with its members, its a duty. Providing oversight is always good in my view. It keeps everyone honest and if you've ever belonged to a club you must know that it is absolutely necessary from time to time.

Feel free to challenge any statement I make at any time.

Respectfully,

HB

 

wpt,

You always remind us of a wonderful piece of history. Thank you. Let's not forget his long run of 1306.

​

 

It is unfortunate that Ross and others may have missed the big point. It is the attitude of the IDNR and the arrogance shown by the ATA and the rep from the IDNR, Monica Brackman. The response from IDNR's Brackman:

She said she is happy now that everything is working out

That above remark nonchalantly mentioned after the other problems mentioned. Traphouses needed painting as well as the walkways. Then the issued of the funds vetoed by Rauner to fix the road.

And the clueless at the top thanked the IDNR for their work by giving governor Rauner (the guy that closed the joint) a lifetime membership.

Idiots only get into power because of apathy. Thanks Ross. Great attitude.

 

Ross,

Good Luck to you.

You are like us. You are seeking out answers from us who seek out the answers about the ATA doings...We are NOT negative, just would like to see that the ATA EC and BOD keeps US in their best interests, not themselves as it appears from time to time.

This is OUR organization and it is our duty to ask questions when we are unsure of just what they are doing.

Once again, we all wish you very good luck Monday...

From one Cardinal Center appreciator to another ~~~

And thank you HB for not only seeking out the true facts, but for getting me so interested in our heritage.

 

Not like me........he was here to crap on the site!

This is more crap from the stooges crowd.

Could be Ross can justify the last part of his statement about this being a propaganda site. Let's hear from Ross as to what the propaganda crap is he is talking about. I am calling bullshit!

 

Famiy Guy, If I make it over to the Cardinal Center this year I will be on spot 755. You can show up there and meet face to face and discuss all of this. I will even give you a beer, diet coke, or water. You at least know who I am and where to find me. This invite goes for WPT and Brads friend as well as HB.

I stated I was wrong on my comment and apoligized for it. If that is not enough then too bad. No need to continue on this.

Ross Randall

 

Got it Ross...but my statement was not about your specific comment about the site being negative and full of propaganda. To eliminate the "punch and run" optics, I am only asking you point out some specifics about this site's "propaganda" and wrongful "negativity". Thinking you may want to give these guys a chance to clarify the other issues you say are "propaganda". It was mentioned on the site and a private meeting as you know would not give the forum the chance to again prove the facts.

 

I apologized and that should suffice. If not, too bad. I am not in the mood to continue this. Sorry.
I will keep my thoughts to myself. It is better that way.
Still beer, water or pop if you decide to stop by.
I guess you could say I am done with this.


Ross Randall.

 

Ross Randall,

I understand your position, however, Family Guy does have a point. In my view, if comments on this forum are being viewed as negative or propaganda and challenged like you did, posters have a right to explain and/or authenticate their comments so they are not misunderstood. I'm a proud member of this forum because of the factual information offered by a variety of posters. As I've said in the past, if this shooter's forum ever becomes a "fake news" site, I'm gone, post haste.

I had no problem with you challenging the sinking traphouse matter and was glad I could provide you with the facts as I understood them as well as the source from which they came. But, your comment : "Is this just some more of the propaganda that gets put in here?" got my attention because I believe this forum usually provides information you will see nowhere else. You seem to suggest a significant amount of fiction that I have not observed. I'm glad to see people challenge statements as you did. I am not glad to see people sit back and believe those statements are false or intentional lies.

Your failure to identify comments you believe were negative or falsehoods makes it very easy for me to believe that the intent of your comments may not have been genuine. I certainly hope I'm wrong, but you see how easy it can be, to misinterpret someone's comments?

If you misspoke or feel you could have reworded your comments, so be it. We've all misspoke, misconstrued or wanted to amend our written commentary. But, leaving us with no explanation is a bit unfair to those of us who offer honest, informational comments and opinions here, and to the forum itself, only to have someone say our statements are untrue and propaganda.

Again, I feel your apology is not necessary. An explanation of your comment would be helpful.

Respectfully,

HB

 

Don't hold your breath

 

I apologized and that should suffice. If not, too bad. I am not in the mood to continue this. Sorry.
I will keep my thoughts to myself. It is better that way.
Still beer, water or pop if you decide to stop by.
I guess you could say I am done with this.
I started to type more and the more I typed the worse it sounded, even to me. Time to just move on.
Maybe my meds were doing the talking. How is that? LOL
Maybe I am not thinking straight right now. How is that? LOL
Anyway I am done with this, for the last time. When and if I feel like it I might dig back to get some actual quotable comments for all of this, but not right now.
I made an honest attempt to apologize.
Beer and cool drinks are on me if I make it over there.

Ross Randall

 

Some people should act like the stooges from stooge land and stick to name calling. Coming here and debating facts can be darn embarrassing.

Where is part where there was an apology for the negative propaganda remark. Someone cut copy and paste that part.

 

With House Speaker Mike Madigan’s longevity comes a patronage army paid with public dollars.

House Speaker Mike Madigan is set to become the longest-tenured state House speaker in U.S. history. But he started his career at the local level, when he was elected as Chicago’s 13thWard committeeman in 1969.

He holds that office to this day. And he spoke about it in a 2009 interview as part of the oral history of his mentor, former Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley.

“I mean, everybody wanted to be a ward committeeman. They knew the power of the patronage system,” Madigan said.

“They wanted a job in the patronage system. I would tell them, ‘Yes, we can put you in a job. But you’re going to work for the Democratic Party.’ ”

A new investigation from a court-appointed “special master” published April 25 shows Madigan and other top officials, including Illinois Auditor General Frank Mautino, continue to operate this way.

Clouted hires

The investigation details how top Illinois Democrats used political juice to push preferred job candidates in the Illinois Department of Transportation, or IDOT, under former Gov. Pat Quinn.

Madigan had a role in placing at least seven individuals in staff assistant jobs at IDOT. The staff assistant position has become notorious in recent years as a patronage haven, and Gov. Bruce Rauner eliminated it in 2016.

The report told the story of one director-level employee at IDOT who was ordered to hire a Madigan pick “even though he lacked basic computer skills.”

Another unqualified individual Madigan’s office pushed, referred to as “Staff Asst. 8,” was allowed to resign after being arrested for assaulting Illinois state Rep. Edward Acevedo, according to the report.

Acevedo told the Chicago Tribune the assault allegation was not true.

Formerly a bricklayer, Staff Asst. 8 had responsibilities at IDOT that included monitoring minority-hiring complaints and “maintaining relationships” with minority road builders. He received two unusually high pay raises after being hired in 2009.

The report also reveals Illinois’ chief financial watchdog, Auditor General Frank Mautino, used his influence as a state representative to secure two staff assistant positions at IDOT. One individual previously worked at Mautino’s family distributor business.

Mautino is currently under investigation for alleged campaign finance violations.

Pattern of patronage

The House speaker’s shady political practices are nothing new.

A 2014 Chicago Tribune investigation in the wake of Madigan’s Metra patronage scandal found more than 400 current or retired government employees who worked elections for Madigan, donated regularly to his campaigns, registered voters on his behalf or circulated candidate petitions for him. That’s a conservative estimate.

“He’s been getting people jobs, getting promotions for his people, getting raises for his people. It’s what he does,” longtime Illinois political commentator Rich Miller said in an interview for a documentary on Madigan.

“Everybody pays tribute up, but from the top down they take care of you. And that’s how they get the loyalty,” Miller said.

University of Illinois-Chicago professor Dick Simpson echoed Miller.

“Mike Madigan controls your behavior because he controls your livelihood,” he said in an interview for the documentary. “Most people who see [patronage] want a higher position themselves so they keep their mouth shut.”

Solutions

The investigation notes Quinn established the Illinois Reform Commission in 2009 in the wake of former Gov. Rod Blagojevich’s arrest and impeachment. This commission recommended a series of reforms to strengthen state hiring processes.

But investigators found that those reforms “were never fully implemented.”

Lack of accountability is evident in the fact that at least 36 employees who were improperly gifted staff positions at IDOT remain employed by the state, according to the Rauner administration.

Due to collective bargaining protections, these employees cannot be fired. But Rauner filed a motion April 26 asking a judge whether these illegal hires could actually be protected under the state’s agreement.

Firing these employees en masse would send a strong message of transparency. And full implementation of the commission’s recommendations would be a commonsense structural reform to prevent patronage.

Just don’t count on Madigan to lead the charge.

 

I knew that Madigan name from somewhere but couldn't place it at first.

I've had some difficulty in getting information from the Attorney General's Office and some of my FOIA requests have been denied.

The Illinois Attorney General is Lisa Madigan . . . . probably no relation and shame on me for even mentioning it.

 

Madigan is related ... He got her that position ... Illinois is one of the most corrupt states in all of the United States ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You bet they are related.Father & Daughter.

 

Simply Amazing

 

BUDGET + TAX / Article
April 28, 2017
Credit rating agencies have warned Illinois’ credit could slide into junk territory if the legislative session ends in May without a budget deal to get the state’s finances back on track.

The state of Illinois’ financial condition is just one month shy of being designated “junk” by the nation’s credit agencies. The agencies have warned that if Illinois doesn’t resolve its budget issues by May 31 – the end of the state legislative session – it may be punished with more downgrades. It’s quite possible the agencies could downgrade Illinois bonds to junk status.

A junk rating of Illinois’ bonds isn’t just some wonky financial designation that only affects politicians. It has real consequences for the people of Illinois, from the most vulnerable to the wealthiest.

Illinois’ political class is to blame for the state’s financial collapse. Lawmakers have been unwilling to enact the spending reforms to stop the bleed and the economic reforms to grow the state’s tax base.

Falling to ‘junk’

Illinois, which already has the lowest credit rating of any state, will become the nation’s first junk-rated state if the rating agencies follow through on their downgrade warnings. The only remotely similar companion in this disgrace will be Puerto Rico, the junk-rated American territory that’s suffering a deep crisis of its own.





A junk rating would be another blow to Illinois’ already low reputation, further discouraging investment, job creators and the in-migration of new residents. It would also hurt Illinois financially and push up borrowing costs, taking even more funds away from core government programs and social service providers.

The state’s fall to junk credit status has been a long time coming. For decades, Illinois politicians have ignored important issues, passed fake reforms and papered over Illinois’ structural problems with tax hikes.

Lawmakers haven’t passed a real balanced budget since 2001. A lack of real pension reform has driven Illinois’ pension debt to $130 billion, up nearly $100 billion from a decade ago. And inadequate property tax reform and tax hikes have shrunk Illinois’ tax base, both in people and dollars.

As a result, Illinois has been downgraded 19 times by the three major rating agencies since 2009 alone, according to the Commission on Government Forecasting and Accountability. Illinois’ drop to junk status would be its 20th downgrade, assuming a double-notch downgrade by just one agency.





The state’s decline is part of a larger story of financial collapse in Illinois. The city of Chicago is already junk-rated. Chicago Public Schools is even deeper in junk territory. And Illinois’ public universities are now facing additional credit downgrades as well. Northeastern Illinois University was recently downgraded further into junk status by the ratings agencies as part of a major review of all universities by Standard & Poor’s.

Without major reforms, such as moving state workers to 401(k)-style plans and comprehensive property tax reform, things will only get worse for both Illinoisans and the economy.

Illinois needs a real plan

Many politicians and pundits and those in the media think that Illinois needs a deal, any deal, to end the current crisis.

But Illinois’ past is littered with bad deals enacted in the midst of a crisis. They’re what got Illinois into its current crisis.

Former Gov. Jim Edgar’s 1996 pension ramp was a disaster that Illinoisans continue to pay for today. Former Gov. Rod Blagojevich’s $10 billion pension bond deliberately avoided addressing pension reform and simply left Illinoisans with more debt. And former Gov. Pat Quinn’s copycat deals borrowed another $7 billion. Then Quinn’s temporary income tax hike allowed politicians to raise spending, leaving Illinois on a budgetary cliff when that tax hike expired.

Every one of those deals had something in common – they all avoided fixing Illinois’ structural spending problems.

The Senate’s proposed “grand bargain” does the same. It will only perpetuate Illinois’ dysfunction, something that Illinoisans simply cannot afford.

A real plan – and a real balanced budget – must solve those structural problems. If not, Illinois won’t be able to avoid an eventual junk bond rating or get off the path to bankruptcy.

 

With the financial situation as it is in the State of Illinois they will be lucky to have toilet paper at the "grand daddy of them all shoot" if they depend on the State to make provisions ... The State has been downgraded more than a 2 bit hooker on a $5 street corner ... This is not good bring extra supplies if you are headed that way ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Family guy I think you need to lighten up on Ross, I've been called everything for years when I was the lone wolf reporting on the BS crowd that runs the ATA. Over that last 25 years I've seen ATA members not really know or care what is happening but rely on hope. If anyone of the Neil Winston Sparta loving 2 whole (targets) shooters that run the ATA today would be really paying attention and reading this site they'd see what I do. In 1978 when Reggie won the grand how many shooters did they have? 4073 good god Sparta and the ATA can't even get 2000 today. Anyone, and I mean anyone, that can't see this are just Plain dumb. Brad

 

Brad could you be thinking of the above mentioned folks in the same way that I heard the democrats described on Fox News earlier this morning? A former congressman said that the democrats were just like the crying baby with a runny nose and a dirty diaper. LOL

Dave Berlet

 

Brad Local news wants to know why Pres. Trump has not started the wall, it was approved in 2006, He could use the money from the De-Funded Sanctuary Cities.



Gary Bryant.................................Dr.longshot

 

Mr. Dysinger,

As I understand it, there is a sizable group who visit and/or post on this forum. In my view, the majority of the posts on an array of different subjects seem to be reasoned and factual, often provided with supporting documentation. This fact leads me believe that most who read this forum are capable of comprehending and even changing their opinions when confronted with specifics and official verifying documents.

Unfortunately, there remains a very small denomination of folks, who, for whatever reason, will still misconstrue what they read, and view those comments as "negativity", "propaganda", or "A.T.A. bashing", failing to realize the only oversight of the ATA is being provided by those who, armed with facts, call out the A.T.A. leadership when it appears they are misleading the membership or mismanaging our Association. More important is that they are educating the membership with important information they would otherwise not be informed of. And this includes Delegates who are unaware of details they should know but don't have enough ambition or interest to request an answer from the Executive Committee. Though we are not Delegates, some of us feel it is our duty to inform, and we get no satisfaction in accepting this task (responsibility) and know that we will be ridiculed by some. To those I say it's called "checks and balances" not "A.T.A. bashing."

So, for those who just cannot seem to understand the intent of your post and for those who won't accept anything you have to say as being factual, I offer the comments below made in 1954 by then outgoing A.T.A. President Chauncey E. Huber, who was elated that the Grand American Handicap tournament had finally reached 2,000 entries in 1954. Entries were on the incline in those days.

​

62 years later, the 2016 Grand American Handicap event had 1795 entries, down 204 since the prior year. Shouldn't one expect there would be a lot more entries today for the World Championship at handicap targets than in 1954?

And the actual number of those who registered scores at the 2016 GAH is lower than those numbers provided by the ATA since the term "Grand Classified Shooters" is used in the reports. While the number 30,175 is used, only 29,913 actually shot and that's the number used in paying the IDNR their $3 fee. In the old days, the A.T.A. reported the actual number of shooters . . . not the number of entries. And 62 years ago the Grand tournament was held over 9 days and shot a total of 1800 targets.

Here is the attendance figures after those appearing in the October 2016 Trap & Field had to be corrected in the November issue. The years 2014, 2015 & 2016 had their "Total Entries" lowered from 56,544; 58,212 and 58,555 to 29,179; 30,166 and 30,175 respectively (as noted in Revisions October-Page 23 at bottom of page).



In closing, there are only a few of us paying attention and concerned about this "Fantastic Direction" as wpt would say. This downward trend in the number of shooters is the point being made.

HB

 

Funny that only the forum cared about the false numbers.

 

I'm not so sure its a matter of false numbers anymore, I think its more the deception and misleading the membership for no obvious reason ... There is nothing to gain by posting false numbers because sooner or late the real number will surface and then it makes the inaccurate numbers look all that much worse ... This forum has shown and proved to be most factual of any not for any reason other than to expose the truth to those who are interested ... If your standing on the deck of a ship you do not have to get wet to your knees before you realize its sinking unless you been hitting the kool aid again ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Who repaired the sinking and leaning traphouses? Or did they just skip those banks? Who paid for it?

 

I didn't see any houses that looked they are sinking or have been repaired. Shot on a few banks on east end & rode past all. They look fine. Good targets all week.

 

Houses the ATA says are leaning

Now they aren't ?

It must be a bloomin' miracle ~~~

 

Brad's friend (I hope), I remember shooting at a club in the old days (can't remember which one) that post one was about three feet higher than post five and it made the trap house LOOK crooked so maybe the ground at Sparta is sinking in the right direction to compensate for the leaning trap houses.

On another note I talked to Dave Berlet the other night and he told me that the road was back to a rutted mess and he bottom out his van one day. I thought too late to blame it on the donuts, I'm not as fast as I used to be. Brad

 

Propaganda too?

 

St. Henry Trap range OH had a trap like that.

 

So where are the sinking houses? I still have time togo look for them. Or did they get fixed?

 

We used to have a Premier Gun Club up by Rochester, NY which had complete pavement over the fields where you stood.

That stuff heaved over time, and when you shot on some stations one foot would be 6 to 12" above the other BUT the houses weren't leaning, so it didn't compensate at all.

Been some interesting fields over the years.

 

mkstephen, St Henry might be the one I'm thinking of. I broke a 50 in their Calcutta there in 1976 and got over $800 for an $8 entree fee. One trap was a bear to shoot. It was an old Remington trap with the big table arm set up and it would throw some wild angles ever once and awhile.

I hated to see St Henry close down as they had two good shoots a month back then. One Calcutta on a Friday night and then one on a Sunday. They kept there own handicap yardage system too. I think Tom Osterholt ran those shoots if I remember right. Brad

 

Maybe the trap houses are sinking to the front or back, not side to side. That would be harder to see from the shooting stations. I shot there Weds. and was impressed with the help but disappointed in the appearance of the place. Many benches and chairs needed paint. A lot of them had broken/missing boards. Roads were not good. The campgrounds were packed and seemed to be in good repair. Vendor row was not as impressive as I had hoped, in fact the vendors at the Cardinal Center were much better organized.

 

Bank 11, House A & B. A is lower on the right side and B is lower on the left.
Shot them Thursday during the Clay Target. No problem with flights & angles.

 

Eric,

Your information is truly appreciated by many of us. Thanks

Question: Were the targets normal? Do you think they leveled the traps? Or, was just the house leaning by the trap base was not affected?

HB

 

HB

Targets were normal, the houses were leaning but the traps inside were level.

Looks like all the houses got a new coat of paint before the Grand this year too.

Eric

 

Thanks Eric. I kinda miss being there. I patiently await the desire to return to shooting again. Don't have a clue where it went but it left me after about 30 continuous years.

The ATA painted the trap houses and bank signs earlier this year.

HB

 

Yes, I shot there a few times. The first time I shot there on the left trap when I walked from post 5 to post 1 I looked over and the shooter post on 5 was 2 or 3 feet higher than 1. First time I ever shot a 'peach' shoot. mkstephen