OSTA Championship AAA or not to AAA

I am getting some conflicting reports as to whether there will be a AAA on the 16's at the Ohio State trapshoot.

Could we get on OSTA official to comment?

 

The OSTA board completed a review of the data available on R J Stuarts data base and the ATA average book and determined there was no justification to add a AAA class at the 2017 state shoot.
Dick Barhorst, Northwest Zone Director.

 

Good Job Dick, there is no need for AAA

 

Thanks for your support and agreement. When you look at the facts and stat's there is no need for there to be a AAA class.

 

Big Papa

What would the criteria be for making a decision like that?

Thanks in advance.

 

I would like to see something different for a change ..... like AA-17-yards .....

It wouldn't change much on who breaks what scores, but at least it is not like just giving some a base HAA/HOA score .....

You couldn't say it would be a squadding problem, or any other normal reason some wouldn't want to do something different.

 

Tooo many categories causing this issue....just a guess. AAA should be shooting for non-trophies.....and shoot for their own monies only.

 

Most of the AAA shooters are teaching classes or selling guns.

 

What.......No AAA shooter's left in Ohio? And none expected to attend!

Somebody could get accused of picking on little guy's!

WL

 

If Harlan doesn't show up all us little AA shooters have a small chance for a victory. If he does, he gets most of the trinkets. Then again, good for him!

 

Dawg

I feel for ya, but at least you got him out numbered...........

No AAA class needed at the Ohio State....... I'll be watching the scoreboard for the dozens of 200's!!!!!!!!!!

WL

 

Just because somebody breaks 200 does not mean they are AAA.

 

Just my opinion; when a dozen or more 200's hit the scoreboard there will be AAA shooters included in the tie.........

 

Why not just disqualify all AAA shooters? Then you will have to whine about the AA shooters. Where does it stop, when all you have are class D's in the competition? Maybe all classes should be dropped and put all shooters in one catagory. That way it will seem even. ROGER C.

 

Whew......
Just can't believe a shoot with 200 plus squads can't come up with enough AAA shooters to justify a class for them to shot in......


WL

 

I just feel obligated to give a few user's some of the "criteria" or FACTS about having a AAA class at the state shoot. Since I was positive there would be the same folks questioning "why not a AAA class" I took the time to review REAL facts about the 2016 state shoot. After working to get facts for singles, it was real easy to say "do not bother to waste your time even looking at doubles". I used two sources to gather "criteria" and facts. I used two sources to gather information. So, lets look at the findings.

There were 1621 shooters at the 2016 state shoot. 1545 of them (or 95%) came from ten states based on information on RJS reports. WOW, 95% that's not a sample!!!! Then I went to the 2016 ATA average book for those 10 states. Based on the data available in that printed resource there are a grand total of 46 class AAA shooters in those 10 states. WOW, 46 AAA shooters in 10 states. Ohio had the most AAA shooters with a total of 11. So, back to the RJS data base. Out of the 46 possible class AAA shooters who COULD have attended how many ACTUALLY did attend. A whole 20 class AAA attended the shoot. So that would be 11 resident shooters and 9 non-resident shooters.

Since you must have both resident and non-resident trophies, who thinks we should add over 40 trophies to the state shoot for 20 shooters (less than 3% of the total shooters)? Over 20 resident trophies for 11 Ohio shooters and over 20 non resident trophies for NINE shooters.

I will tell you I voted for no AAA class at the 2017 shoot. Hopefully this information will put this issue to bed forever. It just does not make good common sense.

Hope everyone comes to the state shoot and has a lot of fun. We are in the final stages of completing the 2017 program. It is going to be a great and exciting shoot this year. In addition to the great grand prizes we have had in the past years, we are adding a gun give away on all 14 events this year. It will be a $10 option for each event. There will be a random draw for a winner of a gun on all 14 events. Also, do not forget MONDAY is our FUN day. Make sure you take a good look at the program when you get it. Look forward to seeing a lot of ole friends again in JUNE.

Dick Barhorst
Northwest Zone Director

 

Good Job Dick, very well explained and I think some people just wont get it.
thanks again.

 

Dick how many shooters were below 85 average? If you want to add classes the OSTA needs to go lower. Brad

 

OMG Brad now you are really wanting to stir the pot. There is no doubt, there are a whole lot more true class F shooters than class AAA.

One of the things we have done the last two years (this year will be the third) is change the lewis payout's on singles. Previously there was a 50-30-20 three class (or 9 scores got paid). This method of distribution supports only the true class A and up shooters. We now are doing five classes, 60-40 (paying 10 scores). The intent is to give the true B, C and D class shooters a chance to win some money.

I just went back to RJS and looked at the singles payouts for 2016. Event 1 - a score of 90 paid $96.00 (a 100 straight paid $96) - Event 5, a score of 89 paid $82.25 and an 88 paid $61 - Event 8, a score of 90 paid $187.25 (a 100 straight paid $55) - Event 12 a score of 180 paid $159.00.

Instead of questioning AAA class, play the lewis on singles, shoot your best and watch the nice distribution of payout's. There is money in singles at the Ohio State Shoot.

 

Dick

I understand your rationale and get your point on the trophy headache. I don't have a dog in the fight either way, just wonder if all the hard working, solid AA class Ohio shooter's appreciate the OSTA allowing the 11 Ohio AAA shooters to beat up on them at there State Championship Shoot.

Makes me glad I live in Florida where we shoot $20,000 guns and $40 worth of shells for $150 on Sunday afternoons!

WL

 

With all the whining that is being done on here about the almighty AAA shooters I checked back 10 years and in our Ohio singles championship and there have 4 AAA winners 4 AA winners and 2 A winners. One of the AA and one of the A winners was a sr. vet. That doesn't look to me like the AAA elite few have really dominated. Anyway W L said that he wouldn't attend our Ohio shoot. A question that I have to ask to W L are you also still crying about Hillary losing the election. AAA winning 4 of the last 10 state singles championships I really don't believe would be considered dominating by the Ohio shooters. By the way W L how would you be classed if you would come to our Ohio shoot. Just wondering?

Dave Berlet

 

Dick I've advocated more lower classes for ever. Instead of all the categories we should be shooting all classes. Age and sex does not determine anyone's ability. What made trap shooting great in the first place was that a ten year old girl could shoot against a 79 year old man and the best shooter won. Trap has become skeet. To easy and everyone wins, but only against there group. Brad

 

Why would Wildcat lewis care about AAA class, when he don't even shoot here. That makes about as much sense as Obummer did in 8 years. He must be a Hilary Fan.

 

AAA doesn't really make a tremendous difference in 16's, where it really makes a difference against the very top shooters (and that doesn't mean all AAA shooters) is in the HOA and HAA. It's tough to hang in there over 1,000 targets when a bunch of those guys are at a shoot. That said, I agree, it would seem to be better to have another lower class, but then the penalty and classifying issues come to the front and someone will win the new class while others post that they sandbagged.

 

Mercy you folks are hard on a fellow.........A Hillary Supporter?? You guys know how to make insults hurt.......By the way I didn't say I wouldn't attend your state shoot and I may ease up that way if I get time this summer. Shot the Singles Championships at the Classic a couple times in the past and its a great place to shoot...............Took some of your money back with me to top off all the fun I had too...............

For your political questions; Ronald Regan and W are my past favorites. I was on the ground in Central Florida supporting Mr Trump this fall also, thank you............

For your classification question I would be either AA or AAA as I am border line and bounce back and forth between the two classes depending on how good or bad I'm currently shooting. Have never argued with a classifier and never will. Have moved up a class voluntarily numerous times to be sure things were fair prior to shooting.

As for the whining comment; NO whining here just stating facts and taking up for your hard working Ohio AA shooters that are getting the short end of the stick! Not to mention the E class shooters who are getting no consideration anywhere. Thank you Mr Dysinger for bringing that fact to OSTA's attention.........

As for entering and leaving the great state of Ohio I have guaranteed lifetime state wide safe passage permission from the old time Down Town Cincinnati gambling crew..................

WL

 

I have a question Mr. Lewis.

When you researched all the states that have "state" shoots, did they all have a AAA class?

Or were you only "looking out" for the "hard working" Ohio shooters.?

 

A class lower than Class D? Now why would that ever be a consideration?

My assumption is there were a lot fewer registered shooters in 1928 than there are now.
However, for many years our rules did give consideration to low average shooters by including a Class E.

Once again I offer my admiration of the old-time leaders who seemed to give much thought about what rules were necessary.

Enjoy Our History !

​

 

HB,

You just answered my question as to having an "E" class.

Can you perhaps tell us when the ATA did away with this "Optional E Class" ?

 

I'm not certain "Brads friend (I hope) since I only have a few of the old ATA rule books. I can tell you that the last time Class E was listed for 16-Yard Singles in the Grand American Handicap Program was in 1938. However, the 1940, 1946, 1955 and 1957 rule books still list Class E. I hope to learn just what year the ATA removed Class E from the rule book.

It may be interesting to know that in the late 1938 & '39, there were few Doubles shooters in comparison to Singles shooters and the scores and averages in Doubles were not very high. Perhaps this was largely due to the fact that the so-called "most desirable" Double setting for targets was 35° each side of the center stake with the legal target area being a minimum of 20° and maximum of 45°. The interesting fact is that there were only three (3) Classes listed for Doubles at the Grand American Handicap tournaments in those days. Class A - 86% and above; Class B - 76% to 86% and Class C - Below 76%. What should stand out is that the targets were more difficult than today and there were far less trophies, yet the sport continued to grow despite those who believed the difficulty would drive away shooters.

Here's the 1938 GAH Program from Sportsmen's Review :

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And here's the pertinent pages from the 1957 Official Trapshooting Rules :

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Enjoy Our History !

 

Agreeing with Wildcat here I think.

The AAA class should be there to protect the AA class. AAA needs no trophies. Also thanks to the OSTA Zone Director that at least did some work one way or the other on the statistics here. Great effort!

 

Really, how many AAA or AA shooters truly desire another belt buckle, pewter plate or flashlight trophy to clutter the basement even more?

 

I haven't done any research on this and honestly don't think I have ever shot at a State Shoot that had a AAA class. However, I was actually a bit surprised that Ohio didn't have the AAA class with the number of squads and quality of shooters in the area. What was really surprising to learn from the discussion was that a class lower than D could actually be utilized.

And yes, I was actually "looking out" for the Ohio AA shooters along with AA shooters from any other state while competing at their state shoot......

On a serious note I do understand the class and category trophy headaches for the state organizations which is why I contribute a few dollars every year at my home state shoot here in Florida for the young folks trophy's and or targets.

..........................My point is; the AAA shooters may not dominate the shoot for their state championship, but in most cases I would think they should dominate the AA class for class option money, added class money and or the class trophy.....................

WL

 

With single targets set so easy today just about every class at Ohio is won with a 198 and above, and a lot of years a 200. Averages in singles are mostly meaningless today. You have experienced shooters shooting in low class and the new shooters who are really class C or D have NO CHANCE at a shoot the size of Ohio. I classified the Ohio Shoot for years, we need Lower Classes these new shooter are the ones who need protected not a AA shooter. Brad

 

Brad,

When you folks have these "Challenge Shoots" among the AAA shooters, perhaps there should be one trap house set up with a trap from the olden days.

That was when a AAA shooter shot true, people thrown targets.

It would be a good place for "New" shooters to actually see how targets were thrown in the olden days.

Western White Flyer "Auto Angle" trap shown

 

AA Class /// AAA Class /// E Class

Ohio State Resident AA Class Winners

Data provided by cross referencing 11 years previous RJ Stuart and ATA records (2006 through 2016)

Resident AA Class Winner in Singles Championship
7 of 11 years won by shooter with AAA year ending average.
4 of 11 years won by shooter with AA year ending average.

Resident AA Class HAA Winner
9 of 11 years won by shooter with AAA year ending average.
2 of 11 years won by shooter with AA year ending average.

Resident AA Class HOA Winner
9 of 11 years won by shooter with AAA year ending average.
2 of 11 years won by shooter with AA year ending average.

My opinion keeping everyone in a class to match there ability including an optional E class is the way to go and do away with the category's. Select the All American teams by actual averages and event wins..................

WL

PS; Keep a close eye on the increased number of Lewis Class pay outs system. Florida started that several years ago and it hasn't worked out to well down here.

 

At the highest level of a "competition", it is harder to "overcome" any "gap" in ability ..... In fact, many times it is just impossible.

You CAN NOT "beat" a 100x100, or a 200x200, you have to shoot until everyone else "loses". And the chance of a "lost target" is proven to be greater by someone with a lower "average".

It is silly to think some are not going to self-adjust (sand-bag), driving scores up in the "lower classes".

Stop giving "Trophies" if need be, but asking AA shooters to "hope" ANY NUMBER of AAA shooters all have a bad day, then prevail over those "in the proper class", is a tall order .....

 

I think AAA should be a thing of the past.

I would change the percentage points of who gets to be AA, A,B,C,and D

And use the 10ths of a percent in each Class of Singles and Doubles Shooters.

GB..........................................DLS