Where or will the grand be held now? POLL

The IDNR WSRC is scheduled for layoffs. Illinois seems to want out. They want outside management. The place was shuttered last year for a while. 1745 was the number in the GAH.

On top of that this forum caught the ATA publishing false attendance numbers.

There are also union issues now.

You decide.

Merlo out

 

The EC would rather have no grand than beg the CC. The CC probably just wants to hear them beg. Then say no. jmho

 

I can't imagine why Fishburn would want any thing to do with the current leadership of ATA.

 

Don't worry, Master Gipson will have it all under control.

Sparta a sure bet !

ATA will NOT let this place go no matter how bad it gets...

They donated $250,000.00 to the horse barn fund don't forget, and that will be given to the State if they bail out.

That is what I call a bunch of Horses Asses...

 

Everyone in Mississippi voted. Great turnout!

 

I really don't care. Probably Sparta until Trap Shooting dies! Sparta might have been a good Ida. In fact it was the only viable idea at the time. Trap Shooting is dying across the country and by factors and economics that the ATA can not control. Unless the ATA can find a location that is easier to get to and has plentiful rooms and infrastructure nearby they cannot expect attendance to grow. They will never get more people to Sparta.

Opening a big RV campground with Trap fields won't get me there. I don't own a RV and don't want to spend the time driving. Get me a location where I can fly cheap and the rooms are available I might go. The average weekend shooter can't afford the airfare rooms and entries. There are a lot of shooters that would like to go but they can't justify 300-400 a day for a vacation that takes 10 days.

 

Last I read there were only 5 employees left at Sparta.
Union or not, 5 people's wages are not going to make or break the WSRC!

 

The ATA made the move to Illinois out of desperation rather than have no grand ,no place, and look like fools which they ended up doing any way ... There was talk about how people at one time camped in their cars and tents, used the bushes for rest rooms, did anything and everything to attend the grand when it was first getting set up in Vandalia , anything, any way to shoot the grand ... Trap shooters have obviously evolved beyond that point and want some of the normal comforts associated with any other shoot they would attend, comfortable rooms, food, showers, real rest rooms, not sleeping with the worms ... The ATA was told in many ways what would happen by the majority of those who used to attend and they chose to ignore them ... The WSRC has not broke even since the first grand was hosted there and there is nothing they can do to change, alter or modify that at this stage of the game ... If anyone needs conformation of the facts just look at the continuation and decline in attendance over the years ... There have been attempts to increase the attendance with enticements of $100,000 payout to no avail, it did increase the attendance by ONE once all was said and done ... There is nothing that can be done to change the inevitable at this point in time, its has gone from bad to worse for 11 years so a pattern has been developed that will be impossible to change ... The State of Illinois remains in dire straights with its budget so they do not have the money to try and make repairs that are needed and will continue to get worse over time ... The writing was on the wall, nobody took time to read it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Build it in the right place and they will come, build it in Sparta and they won't ...

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/illinois...embers-authorize-strike-needed-170307509.html

 

Good for those workers!!!

 

"We are prepared in the eventuality of a strike. We'll keep essential services running," Rauner told reporters in the state capitol, while declining to discuss preparation details.
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I wonder IF the Sparta shooting complex would fall under "Essential" services....

Look at the Millions of dollars that would be lost if that place was not kept running.

Millions, is what has been posted in the past by certain leaders.

To me, that place would be "essential".

Just sayin'

 

If the WSRC would be considered Essential it never would of been shuttered the first time when they had events on the schedule ... The State of Illinois has major budget problems and neither side are willing to compromise, Rauner has approached the democrats with altered budgets with many compromises in them, Madigan and his cronies won't even look at them, let alone consider them ... The WSRC has been a big hole where the State of Illinois can only throw money if they stay involved with the operation of the facility ... The WSRC is a proven loser that only gets worse year after year ... The numbers from the last grand have not been posted for the membership to see (or I missed them) , but you can bet if the out come would of been positive the numbers would of been posted even if as an I told you so ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The budget issues in Illinois don't just effect the WSRC. It effects all the state owned properties.
Until the 2 politacal parties can get together and come up with a workable budget plan more than just the WSRC is going to suffer.
The polititions are putting personal beleifs/ feelings ahead of what's best for the state.

 

We need a list of the idiots that pushed for a venue in a gun hate state. Footnotes should make it clear that the venue is the grandchild of gun hater and felon Blagojevich. More notes should include that we left the future of the ATA in the hands of the gun hating politicians of Illinois.

And another note should mention that the southern folk in Illinois helped elect Blagojevich.

And some wondered if the SCTP would stay?

 

Put in more centrally located in the US from BOTH coasts.

Several states would have loved to have had the ATA move there. Even my state, one of the most gun friendly in the US would have considered it.

Although we are a bit too far north (SD), the Black Hills would have been ideal as it is a tourist state out west and in August the weather is above as perfect as it can get. Highs up to 100, but normally less, humidity around 25%, tons and tons of nice places to stay and eat and a ton of places the wife and kids can enjoy.

It IS a fly-over state and we want to keep it that way after having grown up in California.

My 2¢.

Whiz

 

That is about where it is Whiz. Equally inconvenient to all. So the trapshooting Meccas, OH, MI, PA go to their own mega venues. Not that I should care.

I have six shoots to go to within a morning's drive that are all nearly the same size. Putting it a gun hate state far away from the shooting mecca shows what the idiots at the top are like. Idiots!

1745 last year! Great idea huh Whiz?

 

Smithy,
Where else should the ATA have moved to?
Missouri's home grounds has 60 traps, plenty of camping space and the Lake of the Ozarks in the backyard with hundreds of restaurants and hotels. Second largest trap venue to the WSRC.
Further west by 225 miles from the "shooting mecca" though.

Missouri is not a "gun hate" state.
Would you have come there or just because it's not in Ohio is reason enough to keep beating the dead rat's ass?

 

Keep that element out. jmho

 

And?

Who said the rats had to move anywhere?

 

This is my only question,
if the ATA had moved to Missouri or Texas or anywhere other than Illinois, would you attend the Grand American if you were capable to do so?

 

The probability (possibility) of Lynn Creek having a better (bigger ) turn out than the WSRC in a place with very limited places to stay, eat etc is huge ... The Shooters who attend the Mo Fall Handicap would probably attend the grand also knowing what the shoot can be ... The existing problem might be some gun clubs that are well run and do a great business do not or will not give way to being "Micro Managed" by the ATA who have a problem running what they consider to be their Big Party (the grand) , by a bunch who really do not know what they are doing much less have a way to get it done ... Lynn Creek, Tucson, to name two of a few clubs capable of hosting what the ATA calls its big shoot (the grand ) when there are less than 2,000 shooters that attend at present, unless you count the 15,000 who stayed in the 1,000 camping spots and the other 15,000 that were in the immediate area ... I would lay odds that if the ATA turned over the operation of running the grand to Lynn Creek or one of the other clubs capable of hosting the shoot, the attendance would improve immediately ... This will not happen because the ATA has a point to make which has obviously already been made by the shooters who said they will not attend the grand in Sparta, Ill and they are still standing by their convictions ... The ATA ignored the masses (members) as the straw polls were posted figuring it would never happened, they guessed very wrong ... The only salvation the grand has is to be moved by the ATA, ASAP if not sooner as the attendance at the WSRC continues to decline ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Missouri made three (3) land offers to the ATA that I'm aware of. 1967, 1972 and 1973. The 1972 & '73 propositions were for free gifts. I don't know if these were the same piece of land, but suspect the '72 & '73 offers may have been.

The ATA could have had the Missouri Homegrounds (Linn Creek) for free, but decided in August 1973 to decline and send a nice thank you letter to Mr. William Fineup for his offer instead.

I believe many who usually attend the GAH each year would still make plans if it was moved to Missouri or Texas. Of course some would reevaluate the expense and find it affordable. I attended 23 consecutive Grands to include the first 7 at Sparta. I'd still be attending but for some reason I completely lost the desire to shoot and patiently await for its return. I enjoyed every year at the Sparta Grand and the local people were very cordial. The WSRC is certainly a fine shooting facility. Speaking for myself, I don't know that I could afford to attend a Texas Grand because the cost to attend the event at Sparta was getting pretty high. I would certainly have made the first trip to Texas and then evaluate future plans. I've been to Linn Creek and San Antonio and liked them both.

Though many shooters in PA and OH and other parts in the East have been branded as haters, trying only to hurt the ATA for moving the Grand, those of that mindset, I believe, are in a very small minority. There are many reasons why some stopped attending the Grand American and unfortunately, they mostly apply to the location.

The ATA leadership was wise enough to poll the membership on the relocation issue, but they dismissed the results.
The Grand American is now about half the size of what it was for many years and that started "the blame game" from both factions. I was in a meeting some years back when a Past President made that very claim about OH and PA shooters intentionally hurting the ATA. I asked to be heard and stated my respectful objection to his statement and advised the group that the decline was due to several factors and that I did not know a single shooter who was boycotting the event to bring harm to our association. I reminded them that the membership poll on the relocation suggested the attendance would decline if the Grand moved to Sparta, IL, and that the leadership initially accepted it believing the loss would be made up by shooters from Western States.

Blaming member shooters from different States, asserting they were trying to hurt the ATA was a dim-witted statement. It was simply wrong then . . . just as it is now, and has only led to the divisiveness which has plagued our organization since the move.
I submit, leaders who divide any organization are not leaders at all.

My view.

Enjoy Our History !

HB

 

To support my above comment, thus eliminating any doubt regarding the free land offers by the folks in Missouri here are ATA minutes from August 1973, reported in October issue of Trap & Field.

 

Thanks HB

 

There are several reasons the "Sparta" location is doomed to fail that get "glossed over" .....

The "Grand in Vandalia" was the World's Largest Trap-Gun Swap-Meet. There were people "trading" shotguns EVERYWHERE on the grounds. "Trapshooters" are "gun traders", when they feel "big brother" has too much involvement, you lose more "attendance" than is given credit.

The "Gun Vendor requirements" for the "Grand in Sparta" are much more restrictive than "Vandalia" was, making it not affordable for many "Tent Vendors" to comply. In "Sparta", all "face to face" parking lot trading has "eyes" watching 24/7. All firearm transactions should "comply" with any and all laws. But, many want a chance to "do the right thing", without someone treating them like a need excessive supervision. And when they made a "dealer to dealer on the grounds transfer" use a "common carrier" to "transport" from one vendor to the vendor next door to them, that is just silly. The State of Illinois wants all the "tax money" they can get, and "Trapshooters" will buy a 20k shotgun and refuse to pay any tax or transfer fees.

A competitive shooter has a hard time spending thousands of dollars, and many days, to shoot a bunch of shells, and go home with little to nothing for the effort.

That place is also so large it lost the "Home" feeling. You can spend days there and not "see" some people, like you would when it was in the smaller location.

The smaller location also gave some the chance at a "Gun Show". They would walk around with their "high dollar" prize, to just be seen by as many people as possible.

Many things changed at "Sparta", with very few being for better attendance by non "Point Chasers" .....

 

Thanks, HB as usual right on point and factual ...

The ATA made a mistake, they will never admit to it and make the changes needed for the survival of the grand ... The ATA can and will survive on the daily fees collected by all of the clubs who put regfstered targets in the air ... Those clubs are and will always be the Life Blood of the ATA, without them the ATA is done ... PERIOD ... WPT ... (YAC) ...