Euro targets flying at the Cardinal Center - Made in Ohio?

Say it aint so Merlo!

The scoop is Euro Targets may soon be flying around the Cardinal Center. Why should White Flyer get the business? After all White Flyer is made in the U.S. But, it looks like Euro Targets may soon be made on site.! Not just made in the U.S., but made and distributed from land adjacent to the CC.

Euro will have the edge - - low cost shipping. Advertising advantages as well.

The CC will save money and space. No damage during storage or transportation.

12 million targets will be flying this year at the CC alone. That puts Euro at the feet of OH and PA.

I report you decide.

Merlo out

 

With Jack Fishburn anything's possible.
Wow...Lead reclamation and possibly Target mfg.
Now that's a full service facility.


Regards....Gerald

 

Gerald&Merlo You could very well be on to something. If my memory serves me correctly Brad had CC check into the possibility of buying the Remington molds after they quit making targets, only to find out that White Flyer had already bought the molds and I don't believe they exist anymore. With what has transpired over the years at the CC this could be another move forward. Maybe Brad could comment on this subject?

Dave Berlet

 

Dave I can't remember what year it was but I did suggest to Jack that he buy the remington models from the findley plant after it shut down but I was told White Flyer bought them and destroyed them. I think that is the same thing that happened to the Great Eastern targets that Elwood Brown used to make in the 90's in Pa. I have no idea if Merlo is onto something here or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if Jack got into the Clay Target business.

You and I have seen a lot of target companies come and go or still hang around. Some I remember are midwest, bobwhite, eclipse, meckling, racer, winchester, remington, and I'm sure a few more I'll think of after I post this. Maybe the historybuff can do a piece on target manufactories.

I'll snoop around and see if I can get any info on what is going on or maybe someone else has some info to share I don't know anything about Euro Targets, but it makes good sense to me if Jack got into the target business, he has the oil connections, the limestone connections and the location, and also plenty of land to build on. I hope it's true. Brad Dysinger

 

MIDWEST targets are still made in Litchfield Illinois.

 

Personally I like the White Flyer targets and also the people that work for the company, but a little more competition is always good. I really am not familiar with the Euro targets other than the little bit that I have read about them and it seems like they must be a quality target.

Dave Berlet

 

Merlo,

YOUR STORY IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FABRICATION AND NOT ONE SHRED OF TRUTH EXISTS IN THIS TALE!!! I only became aware of the existence of this website yesterday afternoon, when someone named "Joe" who claimed to operate this website called me to ask if this story was accurate. I quickly notified him that it was absolutely false and asked him to remove the thread or post a retraction. He agreed to post a retraction, which he did not follow through on......hence this reply. During our conversation, Joe made reference to Merlo's comments are protected by the first amendment. No they aren't and that's why you can be hauled into court for both Libel and Slander. So Merlo, the only "Scoop" you have is the one is your hand now picking up the poop that you deposited to the readers of this website.

Here are the FACTS about Eurotarget: We manufactures 1.25 million clays per day and we distribute our targets to all (6) inhabited continents in the World. Eurotarget is continually asked to be the official supplier to World level shotgun shooting events around the globe (European Championships, Asian Championships, World Cups, World Championships and Olympic Games). Every major World Governing Body for shotgun sports has approved our clays for use in their matches. The historical quality and performance of our clays are without equal and Eurotarget is the most well respected clay target manufacturer in the world. Yes, Eurotarget will be looking for a U.S. manufacturing site in the future, but at this time NO site has been determined or have talks begun with any individuals or company's.

Allen Chubb - North American Import/Export Manager - Eurotarget USA

 

Yes, Eurotarget will be looking for a U.S. manufacturing site in the future, but at this time NO site has been determined or have talks begun with any individuals or company.

When you do start to look, it would probably be a good idea to make Jack one of your first calls.

 

The historical quality and performance of our clays are without equal and Eurotarget is the most well respected clay target manufacturer in the world.

Are these the only targets all the big Trapshooting (ata) and Sporting events in the USA use? From the above line I would think they would dominate every MAJOR event.

 

More rumors. Kind of like the fake news stories on the media.

 

One thing for sure is that Eurotarget appears to have plans to capture a portion of the U.S. target sales.

I have no reason to disbelieve the above statement of Mr. Chubb, Eurotarget USA, LLC - Import/Export Manager from Elizabethville, PA.

In fact, it seems he has been making good progress.

​

 

Mr. Chubb, The worst thing you can do is alienate American shooters. If we do not like you or your product it will not (FLY) with us. Piss off the customer and you can figure how to cook and eat your most respected targets. Roger C.

 

I do not want to get into this with folks but I will offer my opinion.

IF, and ONLY IF any plant were to be built in the US of A, would it POSSIBLY have to do with President Trump's import Tax scare, and His bring jobs to America program?

I could see some positive to all of this, IF it were to come to pass.....More AMERICAN jobs !

It could only benefit our country. I as well as the others living in the USA would have to applaud Eurotargets in this case.

Shall wait and see.

 

Dang folks, did anyone ask Luke ?

 

In response to Just Joe....if that is who you are. LOL!!! WOW!!!

Let's first of all get a grip on reality here. The last poster got it right "Did anyone ask Luke"? The obvious answer is NO! Did Merlo call me before printing a blatantly false story? The obvious answer is NO! Remember Joe, you called me yesterday afternoon to see if the story is correct. What did I say? "NO". I didn't even know of this website/blog until you told me about it. I thought you were originally talking about Trap shooters.com.......CORRECT?

Now let's deal with your claims.

1. Yes, I did not want you to use my name and you said that you just wanted to investigate the story. Obviously you had some doubt as to its accuracy as well....hence why you called me, who claims to be Allen Chubb. Once again.....WOW!!! You stated that you would post on the thread and report it to be inaccurate. Did you? The answer is NO! You stated that you don't know who Merlo is and that he rarely gets things wrong. I find that hard to believe and guess what....He did get it way wrong. You claim that I hindered your investigation with my own arrogance on not wanting to disclose my name. Why don't you tell everyone why you wanted to know our U.S. market sales figures. You were being nosey and I told you that this was proprietary information, so excuse me for not wanting to be forth coming with you during our first conversation. After signing into your website, I sent Merlo a message. Did he reply? The answer is NO. So both of you were content to let the story carry on as written with full knowledge of its falsehoods and as you stated at this point you really don't care about the facts. Well, both I and Eurotarget do care about the facts. This is why I registered for your website in order to set the story straight. Take note that unlike Merlo, I don't hide behind some illusion of anonymity and expect that I can say anything I want whether is factual or not. Where's his accountability?

2. You have no doubt that I'm the importer of Eurotarget, but yet you doubt that I'm Allen Chubb. Come on, even you have to scratch your head and laugh at that one. You take great liberty at ASSUMING what influence YOU assess that I have and don't have with Eurotarget. Let's boil it down to these facts:

a. You don't have a clue of who I am?
b. What my position and job description is with Eurotarget?
c. What influence I have with Eurotarget?
d. What our plans are for the U.S. market?
e. Where any why we're looking to put a production facility in the United States?
f. What happens to me after we open the production facility?

3. You might want to revisit that policy when you knowingly allow falsehoods to perpetuate themselves on your site. It's called culpability. Ask your attorney.

4. Yes, you can defend your first amendment rights, but in slander and libel cases your defense is shaky.

5. Refer to the subsections of #2. Focus on the words "Sales" and "Export".

6. LOL!!! Yes, I some how colluded with Merlo (Who both you and I don't know) to post a false story on a website/blog (That I didn't know about) so that I could register to get free advertising. Again, that's a real head scratcher.

7. No one from Eurotarget is going to stop by your office. Doing business with the Cardinal Center is not libelous, but what happens if management at the Cardinal Center opts not to do business with us due to Merlo's fairy tale. They could falsely assume doubt in our company's ability to keep quiet on confidential business dealings and not contract with us. That my friend is called "Damages".

If you'd like to get an understanding as to why we're sensitive about such contrived stories......over the last three years, both Eurotarget and myself have been constantly victimized on blogs and in conversations. We have people jumping to wild conclusions and inserting themselves into conversations and negotiations as if they were sitting with me in the Board room of Eurotarget. I'm not a very complex guy, I live a very simple life and I'm not interested is amassing a fortune. The reason for my ire on this story is that every aspect of it is so flamboyant and grossly false that you have to just put your foot down.

At the end of the day.....competition is a healthy thing. If anyone is interested in learning more about me (The real Allen Chubb) and what I've created, please feel free to log onto the following website: www.keystoneshootingpark.com or watch the following video:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehisdn15gmo5ncp/KSP%20V2.mov?dl=0

Oops!!! Sorry, more free advertising. LOL!!!

Allen Chubb - Import/Export Manager - Eurotarget USA
Allen Chubb - President & Treasurer - Chubb International Shooting Sports, Inc. & Keystone Shooting Park
Allen Chubb - Master Range Program Distributor - Global Shooting Sports, LLC. & B&P USA

 

It looks to me like it would be very expensive to start a target manufacturing operation,but after the way the CC has grown and expanded I would say that anything shooting related is possible. Many people didn't believe that the CC would make the additions to accommodate the SCTP, but in a very efficient and timely manner they came to be. Now they are reclaiming their own shot and could the next step forward be building clay targets?

This only my opinion, but I believe the best all around ATA targets that I have ever shot were the Remington targets that were made while Tom Fitsgibbon was the Findlay plant manager. He seemed to love his job and he knew how to make clay targets.After he was gone the targets just didn't seem to be as good.

True false, or rumor this may not be as far off the charts as some may believe it to be. I guess time will tell. As Columbus said has any one checked with the CC?

Dave Berlet

 

Dave can you remember what year Fitsgibbon left the Remington plant in Findlay, I think it was the late 90's but not sure. I also wonder if he is still around. From what my 40 plus years of trap shooting has shown me the ability to make a clay target that is soft enough to break yet hard enough to throw out of an auto trap is tricky. It appears that the mixing, baking, and cooling is a lot like a chef making a cake. I know it didn't take Remington long to go down the tubes after Fitsgibbon left.

I wonder how much a target plant would cost to build? I remember when fiocchi ammo came here to the usa in the 80's. Bob Oxen from Federal opened the plant if I remember right. Roger C. might remember, I think he was out west then. Oxen was the Rep in the California area. Brad Dysinger

 

I support using American Made Targets, Unconditionally in American Shooting Sports. I like American made shot, as shot size in more uniform, a #7.5 is a 7.5 not an #8, American Made Shot in Magnum is Harder. Metric Shot seems to measure smaller than American Shot. and Softer.
Gary Bryant....................................Dr.longshot

 

Oh,oh!

 

Merlo seems to have hit a nerve again, good reporting Merlo. Brad

 

If Woody Brown could do it anyone can. Well, anyway, those Great Eastern targets sucked!

 

Looks to me like you had better not piss off,Just Joe.

 

I just got off the phone with one of my contacts in the Ohio Government (won't reveal who} they have ties with Jobs Ohio which is the gov economic people and they said that there are state gov programs available for companies moving to Ohio and they would certainly be willing to work with any company wanting to come to Ohio For any reason.

If and when I get any concrete info (if Merlo don't best me to it) on what is going on I let you on here know. It just makes sense to me that someone if not Euro would be looking into target making. Brad

 

In South Dakota, under now-deceased Governor Bill Janklow, the state itself was considering building and operating a state-owned target manufacturing facility and using the prison population as "employees." I worked for a proceeding governor and good friend for a couple of years, so I kinda had some inside old information.

Janklow was a genius at developing business ventures, and those ventures through the state's Office of Economic Development has made this state a super gun-friendly state. Many firms have moved to SD as a result. Corbon Bullets, H-S Precision, and many others have made the move and are succeeding here.

Janklow orchestrated the selling of the SD State Cement Plant here in Rapid City to GCC of Mexico. I, for one, was not in favor of that sale, but it did generate a healthy income. Unfortunately, PCC has gone from around $58 a yard to well over $100 now. Governoe Bill was quite successful in doing a "sale-lease-back" business selling state buildings and leasing them back. Now, the 30 years time limit has arrived and the state now takes back automatic ownership of those buildings.

Now, getting back to the first sentence, I have no idea why the clay target business did not succeed. Perhaps, now with the Bakken oil fields just north of us, in and around Williston, ND, and clay availability, it could have been a viable business, particularly using "cheap" prison labor. I think this state incarcerates more people per capita that other states, so employee availability would always be a positive.

Anyway, as I have read the above threads, it appears to me that this Mr. Chubb needs to eat a bit more fiber. I find it strange that an entrepreneur is ass-chewing in public. Perhaps that German short fuse (I am German and have one myself), just might cause a business implosion.

WW

 

I saved a few from the PA state shoot, tossed them years ago, that had 6-8 holes in them. Picked them up one evening after the shoot was over.

 

As I wonder why everything on this site is a fight, I feel the need to clarify something.

Slander is spoken, Libel is printed. An easy way to remember this is Spoke and Slander both start with S.

 

I still don't understand what was said that got mr. chubb's undies all in a wad? I would have thought that he would have been thanking someone on this site for talking about the Euro product. I guess you just can't make everyone happy.

Try as hard as he has our new president just doesn't seem to be able to make many of the Hillary fans happy. Seems the bottom line is much like an email I saw that stated that it didn't make a lot of difference how many people attended Donald Trump's inauguration the important thing is that we know exactly how many people attended Hillary's inauguration.

Something that I am really worried about is just how Luke and Jake will be able to mine the shot,mix the slurry and still find time to run the shoots. I guess they will just have to go like the Energizer Bunny. LOL

Dave Berlet

 

What I wonder is, would Mr. Chubb had the same response if Merlo posted this instead.


The scoop is Euro Targets may soon be flying around Keystone Shooting Park. Why should White Flyer get the business? After all White Flyer is made in the U.S. But, it looks like Euro Targets may soon be made on site.! Not just made in the U.S., but made and distributed from land adjacent to the Keystone Shooting Park.

 

I think you've hit the nail flyer. Brad

 

FYI: I just reread Gipson's letter on ATA letterhead again, just for the hell of it. There is a small error in the second paragaph.

Mr. Gipson: the correct word is "parameters" not "perimeters", unless you are only talking about the "circumference" of a target. I suspect you mean the specifications including: size, shape, density, mass, color, etc.

WW

 

What are the par(I)meters for an ATA target? I believe the weight and size criteria were removed years ago were they not. Is there any way the perameters could be published on here?
How about it H.B. Do you have an up to date set of perameters? Roger C.

 

I've been enjoying this thread. I'm going to introduce another idea that I threw at the CC last summer right after I found out that Luke had taken control of the pit and the CC is now running it. I asked an international person (I won't say whom) how many more pits Jack would have to have to hold a world cup shoot at the Cardinal Center. I said to them certainly 4 more would do it. This person was thrilled about the possibility.

I think the cost of the traps would be to much but Jack has the means and the land to do it. I suggest right out in FRONT of the new vendor building number three, the fields would be in front of the ATA fields. I've not pursued this any this year yet, but when you look NW of bank 12 and see the 14 skeet fields that sprang up virtually overnight like mushrooms would anyone on here want to bet against it? Or you could look west of bank 12 across the road at the pistol berms. I learned many years ago with Jack that you never say "can't happen." Brad

 

You could put four maybe six pits west of the sporting clay parking lot.

 

Does this mean we aren't going to shoot "chubbies" at CC?

 

If they are made in the USA with American workers, who cares. White Flyer needs the compatition, It will keep them honest. Did any club ever get a shipping price for a trailer load by rail? Should be a lot cheaper, Mr. Chubb should locate near a rail shipping depot. Roger C.

 

Don't answer that....without an attorney standing nearby.

 

according to a white flyer rep. you can not ship targets by rail. they are too fragile.

 

Just curious, anyone know what happened to the Mechling operation in Lima, Ohio?
We used to buy targets from them in the mid. 70s. Nice people in their late 70s or early 80s at the time.
Just curious what happened to the equip.

Regards....Gerald

 

I've been following this thread since it first appeared.
Interesting posts, to say the least.
Our club has been throwing the Euro Targets for a couple of years now. I wasn't crazy about it at first as there is a White Flyer plant right here in Missouri. I thought," How can they ship targets from Italy cheaper than we can get them here in our own backyard?"
The club owner and manager said the targets aren't cheaper, but the quality is so much better. There is substantially less shipping damage and less broken targets thrown that the Euro Targets end up cheaper.
Our youth team was paying $6.00/ round with White Flyers and now we're paying $5.00 / round for the Euro' s.
$1.00/ round is quite a bit of shavings when our kids shoot 80-90,000 practice targets annually!

I have met Mr. Chubb and have been to his Keystone Shooting Park. My son shot in the Junior Grand Prix a couple of years ago. Beautiful facility and yes, Euro Targets are thrown there.

As far as a "Grudge Match" with Mr Chubb on the bunker, I'll put my money on Allen!

 

I wish someone would make a clay pigeon like the ones used in the video/DVD "Trapshooting with the Remington Pros!"

Boy, those smoked like pouring black ink in water. If you were on a fast-shooting squad, you'd have to shoot through the black fog.

WW

 

Those were the day!

 

Whiz, Those targets were probably made in the Finley, Ohio plant. They were the best. Roger C.

 

Five guys that shot together all the time, a nice calm summer Sunday, 4 black clouds still hanging when the 5th man called.
And the smell of Fed papers !

Yeah boy, Those WERE the days

 

I believe that the targets made in Lima O by Eli Mechling ended after he passed and the machinery was sold to a person or group from Pennsylvania. I don't know if they ever produced any targets or not. They even threw the Mechling targets 1 year at the Michigan State Shoot probably around 1990.

The Findlay Remington targets back in the 70's and 80's were a great target.

Dave Berlet

 

Dave Berlet and others,

I have in my collection one of these targets that looks like the patent drawing of the Mechling Target.

There are no identifying marks on this target.

Can any of you tell me if this is indeed the Mechling target ?

Thanks guys, Dave


A part of my collection attached

 

Dave, If you want to have a hands on look at one of these, I believe I sent one to Betty Peterson for the Ohio HOF museum.

 

Back to original post.

I would imagine that the White Flyer targets the Cardinal throws ( assuming they do) come from the plant in northern Indiana.

Wouldn't it be worth a phone call to get a quote on the Euros just to keep White Flyer honest?

Curious why CC Jake hasn't weighed in on the thread?
Conflict of interest?

 

From Mr. Chubb's comments in this post. I know one gun club for sure that will continue to purchase White Fllyer targets. Mr Chubb may be an importer. But his salesmanship skills need some work. I have gone from a person who would of given his targets a try. To a no way in hell will I try them at our gun club.
Jim Bradbury

 

Is this the same Mr Chubb that had all the problems down in Florida at the Silver Dollar?

 

The only characteristics I remember of the Mechling targets were they were dirty and grittier than others.
Also the paint wasn't as nice. No markings.

Eli was a Mechanical Engineer (as I was told) and if you saw some of his drawings you would agree.
He didn't care much for Electronics so most all of his equip. was mechanical.
A nozzle dropped a puddle of paint which was followed up by a rotating brush. Therefore his paint wasn't as pretty.

He bought pitch and paint, I think from Remington, which they called rejects.

Regards....Gerald

 

Is there a pattern on your target's dome area? Hard to see in the picture.

 

History Buff,

Some time back, you sent me the patent info on the Mechling, and if memory serves me correctly I sent you one of these targets out of my collection.

There is NO pattern on the dome, actually NO markings anywhere on the target at all.

All of the outside diameters appear to match up with the patent illustrations, as well as the ridges on the dome.

That's why I believed these to me a Mechling, but I cannot be 100% sure.

Thanks for the interest.

BF ( at least I hope )

 

Dave it looks like a Mechling to me, I loaded and shot a lot of them around here. I live about 20 miles from Lima and all the small clubs shot these targets when I was a kid. Brad

 

Mechling!

 

It does look like a Mechling, but it has been a long time since I have seen any of them.

Dave Berlet

 

Thanks to all for the input...

Sounds like we have three shooters who are agreeable that these are Mechlins .

I would be remiss if I didn't mention that HB had not sent me the actual patent for the target, but they were the patents for the Machine, which showed pretty clearly the target on the inside mold (or die).

Item #26 is the target.

Thanks again HB for all you do for us who are interested in the History of Trap Shooting !!!

Your information is invaluable.

 

Apparently the Mechling targets had no name or identification embossed on them.

​

Mr. Mechling's follow-up patent granted in June 1972 was a machine for handling and painting clay pigeons. The patent states:

"The apparatus according to the invention is capable of handling and coating the targets at a high rate of speed, in the order of 6,000 to 8,000 targets per hour."

That certainly is a lot of targets per hour. Especially as mentioned above by Gerald the painting description in the patent says:

"At each coating station, the target is stopped and positioned above an opening through which a plunger is longitudinally moved to carry the target to the vicinity of a brush which is contacted by the target and applies the coating material to the target."

Enjoy Our History !

 

I remember how hard Mickling targets were to break, but they were nowhere as hard as the Federal targets they threw at the grand (the real Vandalia grand) one year though. That was in the 80's I think. Brad

 

I know I'm new to this site but I'd been checking it out for several months before I joined.

Seems more like a " Remember When or a Where Are They Now" forum.

Thought there would be more useful trapshooting information available.

 

Well, ask and someone will respond. If you lurk in the background, you aren't going to easily find info you need. Speak up and you shall be heard.

The nice thing about this site is the the posters "Have been around the block a few times." There aren't many wives-tales here.

Probably the main reason you are not finding information, is the the "oldtimers" here have gone through the gauntlet of those questions long, long ago. However, if you bring up a question, you will get answers from those in the know.

There is more VALUABLE and ACCURATE information on this site that the "other" site. I was the original moderator on the others site, and, believe me, there is so much Tom-Foolery, and just bad info there, it is a laughable site to visit. And, in fact, I and a couple others were in the process of buying the other site, but the present owners paid like 10X blue sky for it, and that's why over there they are charging for anything they can think to charge for.

Over there on the other site it's" "When should I load my gun?", or "Should I eject my hulls?", or "7½'s or 8's?". It's just mostly newbie, neophyte stuff. Newcomers get bashed, but here we tend to be protective of our members, but like anywhere, there are some folks who just don't get enough fiber in their diets.

Even some of the highly respected posters on the other site have left, Neil for one, and others like Britt Robinson, et.al.

Both sites, however, have their drawbacks, but I believe this site posts some of the most accurate info available.

Here, you can buy and sell for nothing, and if you cause trouble, you could be gone.

 

Thanks for the explanation!

 

Win101,

I don't know what your interests are but I would appreciate you suggestions how I could help make the forum more enjoyable and useful. I'm not a moderator, but just a member who likes reading and commenting.

Personally, I enjoy our trapshooting history but have, on occasion, tried to help with information other issues, even current ones.

So, if there is something in particular you wish to discuss or obtain information about, please feel free to ask.

Thanks,

HB

 

I will when the need arises.
Thanks, HB

 

7-1/2's or 8's ?

 

I actually use 71/2 for handicap and 8's for 16 yard singles.

Way I was taught years ago.

Thanks for asking!

 

Kentucky 9s.

 

H.B. Do you have the size and weight tollerences that the ATA specifies to the manufacturers? If so could you publish them here. Thanks Roger C.

 

Well how about that.

You fit right in telling us about how you were taught "years ago"

 

I don't know what I've said that has upset you Mr Flyersarebest, enlighten me please, as I'm not here to ruffle your feathers.

I thought you were refering to me when you asked," 7-1/2's or 8's?"
If not, my apologies.

 

No problems here. You couldn't say anything that would "ruffle my feathers". You don't have to apologize.

The 7-1/2 or 8's reference was because of what Whiz correctly posted about that other old site.

 

win 101 If you have a specific question about how or why one of us shoot this post or that post for example just ask. I don't do my e-mail or personal messages from here but if I see a question someone asks me on the open forum I'm happy to answer. This time of year I'm really busy hunting so I don't necessarily answer daily but I will when I see it. Brad

 

Yes Roger,

Just so you know they are in the rulebooks. I just copied the below from the ATA website so it's current.

SECTION XIII
STANDARDS FOR TRAPHOUSES, TARGETS, TARGET SETTING,
GUNS AND AMMUNITION
​

D. TARGETS No target shall measure more than four and five-sixteenths (4 5/16) inches in diameter, and not more than one and one-eighth (1 1/8) inches in height. A target shall not weigh less than 95 grams or more than 105 grams with an allowable variation of plus or minus 5 grams per target lot. A target lot is defined as all targets with same production number.

Online ATA Official Rules, Reprinted September 1, 2016, page 46 – www.shootata.com

 

HB, Many years ago I was told by a White Flyer rep. that those tollerance were no longer used. Roger C.

 

Roger, the rules regarding the size of targets go back to at least 1940. I found no requirements in the 1934 rules so I assume sometime between '34 and '40, the ATA determined a need for some written specifications on targets. The specs only referred to diameter (4-15/16 ins.) and height (1-1/8 ins).

1940 ATA Rule Book

​

I do not know the exact year the ATA decided to stipulate a required weight for targets, but the 1982 ATA Official Average Book is the first year they started including the rules in Average Books, and by that time target specifications were amended to include the target diameter in centimeters (10.94cm) and target height in millimeters (28.58 mm) and weight specifications. Targets were to weigh 3.5 ounces (99.23 grams) with an allowable 5% variation.

1982 ATA Rule Book

​

Now, to attempt at answering your question, I offer the following :

The diameter and height requirements for targets have always remained in the rules (since at least 1940).

The weight requirement stayed in affect from at least 1982 up to and including the January 1, 1991 rules printed in the 1990 Average Book.

January 1, 1991 ATA Rule Book in 1990 Average Book

​

The specification for target weight was removed from the rules, presumably by the Executive Committee, prior to the 1991 Annual Meeting of the Board of Directors. Apparently Delegates were not consulted on this rule change because the question arose during the 1991 BOD meeting.

Minutes of ATA Meeting of Board of Directors - August 15, 1991

​

January 1, 1992 ATA Rule Book in 1991 Average Book

​

The target weight requirement remained stricken from the rules in the April 10, 1999 rule book, and the Average Book rules dated December 15, 1999.

December 15, 1999 ATA Rule Book in 1999 Average Book

​

Sometime after December 15, 1999 and before April 8, 2000, the ATA adopted or reinstated the weight rule. Once again it gives the appearance that the decision was made solely by the Executive Committee.

The target specification for weight was returned to the rules, appearing in the April 8, 2000 rule book. The new weight requirement was fractionally different (but basically the same) from the old specification and the rule now read 95 grams to 105 grams with a 5 gram variation per target lot.

April 10, 2000 ATA Rule Book

​

I suspect your discussion with the White Flyer Rep was before the year 2000 and was about the weight tolerance which was suspended for approximately 9 years. But remember, the diameter and height requirements have remained in effect since at least 1940. The current weight requirement has been in effect since 2000.

Hope this helps,

Enjoy Our History !

HB

 

H B, Yes it was prior to the closing of the old Phoenix club in 2001. We were having trouble with target flights. Having been in the trap machine business I started to check the sizes and wrights of the targets we were using. The dimensions were all over the place.
I think the problem arose from the polishing of the molds as they aged. If the old molds were mixed up with new molds then the variation was magnified in the machines. If on doubles your machine set a small and a large target at the same time it was very noticeable. Roger C

 

Roger didn't they change from weighing each target to weighing the case? I can't remember if that was fact or rumor. Different weight of the targets was more a problem with white flyer than it was with Remington back then also, that I know. Brad

 

Hi Brad, I'm not sure how they did it but it was a pain in the kister for us at Phoenix T&S. I think they were lax in servicing the equipment. They were mixing old reworked molds with new on the same machines. and getting wide range in sizes and weights. Just my guess. It was a bigger problem with doubles setting than singles, when you got a big heavy target and a small lighter one in a pair it was a problem.
The REM. target from Findley was the very best target made. The all black eclipse target from W.W. was the best flying target they ever made. Roger