Great things are accomplished ONLY by the perfection of minor details

The first minor detail is re-establishing the 44+ degree angle, this alone makes the sport of Trapshooting, Competetive, the following minor thing is the distance of the Target,
50-52 yards. These alone will help spread the wealth around, lessen the ties of scores, and give new shooters a better competitive position.

What other positive changes will this bring about? Think POSITIVE!!

 

Minor details LOL

 

"Spread the wealth around"? Man you are living in the past.
"Positive changes?"-------- For some people to live in the present and stop bitchin about the past. Nobody can change history and fussin about it ain't good for the soul.

Cheer up doc, and join us in the present, the past is getting old.

GneJ

 

Nudie seems to think that the status quo or present downfall of the registered trapshooting world is no big deal. There are some out there that seek to save the ATA. Trapshooting will continue. The ATA's future is in question.

 

Funny----the free guns and 6 figure salaries will soon go down river. Sometimes I am amazed anyone really cares. Why should they. The states with the trapshooting populations will survive. Ironic that the VP's don't represent any of the those states.

 

--------And just where did you get this information from? Read S-L-O-W-E-R next time.
Constantly fussin about the past is no good for the future. If you think I am wrong, prove otherwise.

GneJ

 

Nudie
On the planet earth is an organization that once had around a 100,000 members. It was called the ATA. The grand was grand back then. The shoot was held in a pro gun state. There were grand prizes. There was even 5000 shooters at a single event. Registered trapshooting was booming.

Make a trip to earth sometime. Check it out.

 

FG, Look up the membership differences of the Moose Lodge, Elks Lodge even any of the Veterans organizations in the same years and let us know what happened to their membership.

 

Hmmm,
Didn't know the moose shot trap. How about martians?
The trapshooting states are still doing well. The ATA is not. Blaming the ATA problems on the the Elks and Moose is the logic the EC and BOD seems to have taken.

 

The correct way to fix something is to do the easiest simplest things first, this is a direct quote from Chinese Proverbs. Handicap shooting needs a change to save our sport that we love so much. Everybody has seen number of high scores, and the new shooters see this and after shooting an event they find they can't compete so they quit registered shooting, they have seen the Sporting Clays events. When you are on the 20 yard line and break a decent score, you feel good, and can shoot off for your yardage trophy, only to find out long yardage shooters took those 2 yard reductions, Not only once, but twice, now they are on the 22 yard line like myself, I took those yardage reductions like so many others, now I am on the short yardage competing with those new shooters. That is why I don't shoot registered targets. I shoot game shoots, You would not believe the young shooters that are participating, we have a 13yr old girl shooting, I was her partner and we won the match.

Last Sunday after they shot Sporting Clays, The young boys shot the buddy matches and cleaned us old timers clock, we were the talk at the club, and we congratulated them on their excellent shooting, and they had shootoff shells to win the
long yardage shoot offs. They were shooting 3 3/4 Dram 1330fps #6s & 5s against us old farts.

Handicap is broken and the ATA EC, BOD, Delegates Broke it by changing target rules. Delegates by allowing it to happen. The delegate I voted for changed after got to be one of the good ole boys club.

Six figure incomes, New Guns, was not how it used to be, President of the ATA was an honor to serve, and had High Esteem for the Sport. He only got a stipend as president. The executive committee, and BOD, and delegates only got a stipend for attending the Big shoots in their zone, Meals were on their own, Hotels were on their own, Just like the average shooters had to pay for their lodging.

The President, EC, BOD Central Hdcp Committee, are paid positions, this needs changed, NOW.

I just gave you a very short overlay of how it is now, and how it used to be.
Dr.longshot

 

Name one Sport that made things very easy to do. NASCAR Restrictor Plates was wrong to do. Limiting Cubic Inches I feel was fair, as it required extensive design changes to get the most HP output, High Compression engines Roller Camshats, Roller Rocker Arms, all lessened friction, development of Synthetic Lubricants,.

In Trapshooting Adj. Combs, Soft Touch Stocks, PFS Stocks, Adjustable Ribs, Choke Tubes, Release Triggers, Pat Traps, Different Bore Diameters, 35"inch Bbls, Trapgun Designs, Like Silver Seitz, Bowens, KX-6, CG, Perazzi, Kolar, Browning, Blaser, and so many others.
Shotgun Shell Wads, Magnum Shot, Bio-degradable Targets, Voice Callers, all contributed to better Trapshooting.

But to dumb down the Target Angles, Target Speeds slower, Target shorter distances, WAS ABSOLUTELY STUPID.
Dr.longshot

 

What the hell do the Chinese have to do with this?

 

Now that is a little bit funny. But you make a good point.

We would need to get people to agree its broken before we could hope to fix it.

We have had 2 hole targets for 20 years and the only people unhappy about it are in Cyberspace.

More recently we had the 2 yard reductions. We had them 2 years running.
I wasn't offered a reduction but from what I could see most shooters took them when offered.

I personally know 27 yard shooters who moved up to the 24 yard line the first year because they also got a 1 yard reduction.
The next year they were on the 22 yard line.

These were good shooters but they jumped at the chance to make the game easier for themselves.

We brought back the 18 yard line and grown men are happy to stand there and shoot handicap.

I am not condemning anyone, just stating facts.

The current EC are very happy with the way things are, they had a hand in it design.

The shooters don't support it based on past behavior and the EC doesn't support it.

I like your passion but I don't see how you will move this forward.

 

I wasn't around for the past, I don't know what will improve attendance and I am an average shooter, but when I'm able to do 50 -100 straight the targets are too easy. when the top shooters drop one their out of the running. When I have a chance, about twice a year I like to shoot Bunker trap: its more challenging and fun. Rarely do the Europeans run straights in international competition thus if one is dropped your still in the hunt. This sport is not inexpensive and it has become more equipment technical. We should ask why sporting clays is so popular. but I don't have any answers, but for fun and that's what I shoot i would like faster and more angled targets mike

 

archangel

That was well said

Like you I don't have the answer, but if the answer is more challenging targets count me in.

 

I don't shoot ATA, yet, do shoot some P.I.T.A.,so know Their rules better. The ATA mandatory reductions resulted in reductions in the P.I.T.A., but You had to ask for them, and They were not advertised. There were some of Us that had a real problem with the earned yardage table that the P.I.T.A. adopted during this. Basically, it reads that any winner of a registered handicap shoot with 10-24 shooters will get a 1/2 yard punch. This resulted in, what I call a lot of junk yardage being given out. Some of us moved within Our state organization to try and get an ammendment to the rule that in these small registered events, that in order to get the 1/2 yard punch, (10-24 shooters), A winner of a handicap event would have to score 92 or more to get the 1/2 yard punch. This went nowhere! The handicap rep for Our state would rather give out wholesale reductions rather than Move shooters back slower. This does shooters that participate at small clubs no favors, as You really aren't shooting against stiff competition. Personally, I thought that reductions should be the exception, not the rule, in trying to handicap shooters fairly. I'm at the 25 yard line, and I am not competitive there, but choose to shoot there, as I want to learn to shoot at longer yardages. Still do not think that it is a good idea to move shooters back quicker, as They really don't get a chance to gradually learn to shoot at ever increasing yardages. How does the ATA handle these types of situations? Not trying to stir the fire, but thought this would be a small thing out here that could make handicap shooting out here better. Unfortunately, a lot of the OSTA reps did not think so.

 

I believe no yardage should be given unless a score of 97 or better is broken regardless of the amount of shooters!!!!~

 

Hillary Clinton it is a guy thing, you would never understand, you are anti-gun, pro-abortion, and a follower, not a leader

Dr.longshot Life Member of the ATA, and am for 45 degree angle, 50-52 yard targets. I will always stand for them!!!!

 

You know damn good and well the comment was a reference to all sorts of clubs and organizations that are having trouble with declining membership!

 

Sockeye, you can refuse ATA reductions.

 

Dr Longshot

"I gave up on registered ATA shooting for reasons listed above, what have I been doing the last few years? Shooting buddies, annies, miss & outs, pole shoots, longshot pots, and a large $5 54 card draw w/2jokers.takes a joker to win."

"That is why I don't shoot registered targets. I shoot game shoots, You would not believe the young shooters that are participating, we have a 13yr old girl shooting, I was her partner and we won the match."




Again you say you quit registered!!

I'm waiting for my apology!!

 

So the moose lodge lost some folks and the ATA suffered because of that. Not buying it. The local VFW lost members so we lost membership. Americantrapshooters.com is growing 100 members per week. Does that mean more folks went to the local legion? Must of had a drinking binge this month at the Elks.

The Cardinal Center is adding 2 more dates and has plans to expand. The PA shoot is doing well. The states with members on the EC and States with ATA VPs are the ones hurting.

Sure...Blame it on the Elks.

 

Problems with ATA that I have read:

Cost to shoot is getting too high, game is made too easy with 2 hole targets and is even easier with electronic voice releases, 1250 fps shells, and newer adjustable guns. Also blame the (2) 2 yard free reductions, 18 yard min. handicap yardage, no mandantory reductions, too easy to get yaradge, the organization is paying some committee members and officers too much, the Pres. gets a free gun after he's done, and the EC and BOD are made up of rich or experienced shooters that want to keep the game the way it is cause it suits there life style and competitive edge, and they don't listen to the members.......and the membership is 2/3rds +/- of what it was 15 years ago.

And NO ONE is doing a damn thing about it, except bitch, bitch, and bitch. Bitching is easy.

 

Well said Rosey

 

Rosey and Storm....
Maybe you missed the part in earlier posts where many of the shooters have left the ata for different types of competition. They are the ones that did something about it. They left. Because they left the ATA is hardly a shell of what it used to be.

Maybe you also missed the discussions about putting pressure on and calling out those responsible for this. I take it this is what you oppose the most. Putting pressure on those responsible. Too bad. This is a forum. We will discuss ways to improve our sport.

You doth protests too much.

 

The protestors left, but didn't do anything to make changes. It's like taking your ball and going home.

A united effort is required to make changes, or get the right prominant people on the EC and BOD. Those positions appear to be closely guarded by the current elite.

 

I made several attempts by writing Dennis Filo our state delegate, No answer, So I went to Sparta asked to be put on the agenda to ask for changes, was told by Dennis Filo I can't speak about it, his reply was it was asked before and voted down. Well it needed to be brought up again, One supporter was a delegate he wanted the target settings re-instated in the past, and Phil Kiner wanted them re-instated, I attempted to stand up for my beliefs, but could not be heard, so much for being a life member.
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot Life member ATA 47 yrs since 1968

 

Rosey:When you try and get nothing, we shooters, stop or slow down registering, it is showing up at GA Week with lower amounts of shooters, The present President Rob Taylor has fallen down on his integrity of the way the ATA is running, he wants to soften up the doubles. He presented it as a delegate but it was voted down, now we will see what happens.
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Our Ohio Delegate Dennis Filo is one of the yes guys, You heard me right, he wants to stay in line for a gun, so he votes with the BOD and EC..
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I disagree with you on this one statement Doctor.

 

Don't Ban Me Bro
I am with you.
At this years Dixie Grand American there were 328 shooters in the Handicap Championship.
The winner posted a 96. It is stupid to suggest this score should not be punched.

Event 10 had 311 shooters and the high score was a 95, of course that score deserved a punch.

 

At the other end of the scale: I was at a 2 trap club with 10 shooters, on a windy, nasty day. Shot an 88, still got a 1/2 yard punch, (P.I.T.A.). Definitely junk yardage, that does rural shooters no favors, especially when going to larger metro area shoots. We asked for a minimum score of 92 to get punched with a field of 10-24 shooters. No-go at the OSTA in Oregon. Reudctions are the norm, not the exception here.

 

The above is the best post I have read on this forum. Guarded very closely! Truth in a nutshell!

 

Nothing will change if the argument put forward is not based on facts and BS free.

 

No argument no matter how well presented is going to change anything under the present guard. Since losing any rights we had(voting)and tomorrows leaders being hand picked by the elite, it doesn't look like anything will change in my lifetime. I have the choice of quitting registered shooting altogether or just shooting enough to avoid penalty at my state shoot and a few others I want to attend. I have been doing the latter since coming back to trapshooting in 2008 and will most likely continue doing the same. No amount of p---ing and moaning on the internet is going to change a thing. We might just as well enjoy what little we have left and hope future leaders make better decisions.

 

To get the EC and BOD's attention, it would take a massive boycott by the registered shooters. That's not gonna happen. In reality, I think most of us are just fine with the angles. As a group, we like to have satisfying scores so we can stroke our egos and look good occassionally, and I think the ATA knows this. I also question if it's really that big of a priority to most members. It is after all just a game, a hobby for most of us. Especially since the money isn't there anymore.

I do hear a lot of complaining about the handicap system, both ways. Too easy for the Pros and big dogs, and too easy for the sandbaggers. The 4 yard give away was a short term fiasco that taught a lot of shooters to be target managers.....permanently.

Gary, One guy can't go to the meeting an expect respect, unless you've earned it, know the right people, and/or are influencial in the eyes of the EC/BOD.

 

Michael

I think you summed it up really well.

Shoot and enjoy.

The only way to effect change is from within and most of us don't have the price of admission

 

The only thing to do is DO WHAT YOU ENJOY and ENJOY WHAT YOU DO and HAVE A GOOD TIME DOING IT. The average shooter has very little leverage to have any changes made.

 

I can not in good conscious tell someone to join the ATA. I can in good conscious tell them to try trap shooting. Trap Shooting and the ATA are not synonymous and I feel sorry for those of you who think it is. I've met many wonderful people and some very very smart ones but some of those shooting today are just kidding themselves, hoping and denying the facts. It makes it easier for me to see how Obama got elected twice. 1980 100,000 ATA members, 2014 less than 30,000. Smallest grand handicap in over 60 years. Membership average age pushing 60. The ATA doesn't need a home grounds they should have built a rest home.

I don't know about the moose, or elks but I do know that there are 30 million new gun owners since Obama became president, sporting clays wasn't even around in 1980 and skeet is still the puddling clay target sport it was when I started in 1974. Also the big money today is in live birds, BIG MONEY, you can't set a live pigeon in the 2 hole, I guess you could cut off a wing, But I don't think that would fly at a bird shoot.

As far as going through the chairs, as long as a state with 25 shooters gets the same vote as a state with 2500 shooters it won't happen. When both Pa and Ohio each have more shooters than the states with the VP's the ATA membership is screwed.

Brad

 

I would much rather see each state get an equal vote. If not you have one small population area deciding for everyone. Same could be said for the anti-gun east and west coast taking everyones gun rights.

It's easy to be in the area that has the control and want those rules but it's not fair to the rest of the shooters who should have an equal say.

 

Interesting that Leonidas does not want each shooter to have an equal vote. Why doesn't that surprise anyone?

And also....Leonidas didn't know that the west coast trapshooters already seceded from the ATA....as they were not being represented well by the ATA.

 

Twist it how ever you want but each shooter gets the vote in the State and the State represents the wishes of the shooters of that State.

 

I don't think many would be willing to invest the time or money to perfect the minor details.

 

Leonidas, by your own admission each member does not have an equal say. The two state's members that have the least say in matters of the ATA are PA and OH.

That above statement does not apply if the shooters there vote with their feet and their wallet.

Maybe NW can draw you a graph.

 

It is that way by design. Why do you think each state has only two Senators? Same reason.

 

But in the house of reps the votes are weighted to balance the powers. This is the reason we have have the decisions that have hurt ATA memberships.

Why should the successful states follow the lead of trapshooting states that have failed miserably to promote trapshooting?

 

FG, If your that adamant about the ATA why don't you run for your States delegate position?

Or is your current barrage of borderline insults on internet posters your cup of tea?

Iowa has the THIRD largest STATE shoot but you don't hear them whining and crying constantly, Why would that be?

 

This is your statement Leonidas. One that you said you agree with. And obviously you do not want each member to have an equal vote. And it does not surprise me.

I see how someone quoting you can be very frustrating.

 

Well the ATA would then be controlled by a handful of states.

Yes that would likely work for those states.

The remaining states would soon lose interest.

That would certainly hasten the ATA's trip to the grave.

 

It might be easier for those states to start their own association.

If they were successful it might have the added benefit of showing the ATA the error of its ways.

 

I guess you can't comprehend the last 20 words in the above sentence.

 

My delegate understands the issues.

 

Not frustrated at all FG. In fact I'm have a hard times seeing my screen through tears of laughter at your silly comments.

(Typing extra slow) Read Wishbones las two post above yours!!

 

Despite being a distant 3rd Iowa has a much vote as number 1.

 

I agree with Wishbone.

Leonidas, it is unfortunate that quoting you offends you.

 

And the last place State would have as much as a vote as the first place, only right!

So what do you agree with, the demise of the ATA or all the controlling votes going to a few State? Both?

 

In the end the states in the heartland of trapshooting will still be shooting trap. Ohio will have at least 3 huge shoots this year. One or two may be bigger than the shoot in Illinois. PA will have a state shoot that may be bigger than the shoot in Illinois. The surrounding states will continue to shoot as well.

My local clubs will have shoots regularly this summer that are not registered and are bigger than many state shoots.

 

I could really care less about predicting the demise of the ATA. I do not care about initials. You can use words like PITA , OSTA, or ATA forever. The successful trapshooting states know how to be successful. It is their obligation to follow a successful path for the benefit of the sport and it's members.

 

It would be interesting to see a state like Ohio go back to the rules of 1970's era.

If they did that for a year or two state wide it would be hard to ignore the results.

 

Wishbone, I've said the same thing in previous posts but when it came down to the nitty gritty it was ignored and posts were answered with ATA bashing.

 

The ATA should be controlled by the states with the highest percentage of shooters, a minority should never control the majority.
The states with the highest percentage of trapshooters, Pa, Oh, Mi, Ny, Ca, Az, FLa, Ky, there are others I just named the ones that come to mind. I will name some men who should be the BOD of the ATA, not by any specific order, Britt Robinson, Gene Sears, Neal Crausaby, George Snellenberger, Phil Kiner, Kay Ohye, Brad Dysinger, Dan Bonillas, Alcoriza, there are more but I feel these guys would do good for the ATA. I feel 100% they would restore the ATA as it should be.

All present BOD and EC & President, should be removed from office.

All Lewis Classes should be 50/30/20 No high Gun category.

Mandatory $5.00 Ford Purse Entry, For GAH, and all State Hdcp Champoinships.

Handicap purse to play 6 places not hi gun,

Big Dogs & Top Dogs can have a Wolf Option, that anyone can play, it's their risk to play.

20 yard Minimum Hdcp,

Must be a Life Member w/5yrs membership to hold any ATA Office.w/ Minimum 25,000 ATA targets.

Gary Bryant, Life Member, Dr.longshot

 

Gary, You have stated twice that you don't shoot ATA targets anymore so what with the obsession with the ATA?

Take away EQUAL voting privileges from the rest of the trapshooting community and all you have is a dictatorship. Heil Gary!

 

You are preaching to the choir, and it's a very small church!

 

Leonidas, your argument earlier was that you did not want equal voting rights.
Remember, you wanted the state with 25 shooters to have the same vote as the state with 2500. Ooops you forgot that already.

 

From post # 41, the first post I posted on the subject

From post # 43

I am against things being decided by "POPULAR VOTE" as you seem to be talking about. All that amount to is a DICTATORSHIP controlled by a few States who you know will only run things to ""THEIR OWN ADVANTAGE""..

And NO the Grand won't ever be back in Ohio!!

 

Which means you do not want equal voting rights. You want the 25 shooters to control the 2500 shooters.

And in your opinion the popular vote as you say is a dictatorship. WoW you missed civics. Maybe someone can help you. As it is now the majority are not represented and you think that is fine.

 

Leonidas,
You missed the latest news. Ohio now has the equivalent of 3 grands each summer. A fourth date is going to be added in July.

The shoot in Illinois is a dismal failure. The PA state shoot may have more in Elysburg than Sparta. It is a failure because it was a dream of the minority you love. They coveted something they could not create.

That minority has nearly ruined registered trapshooting. Your pals took an event that once had 5000 in an event and brought it down to about 1800. Now at its lowest level since after WWII.

The vendor contracts are up at the end of the year and the IDNR says they do not want the burden. The ATA has said publicly it cannot afford to maintain the place. These problems rest squarely on the backs of the minority that are ruining the ATA. The shoot in Sparta is your problem.

We have recently lost 2/3 of the shooters. I get it that you don't care. Those in the heartland of trapshooting do care. They will continue to survive.

 

Popular vote is a dictatorship when the majority comes from a small area (as you say) and that small area is only looking out for themselves. So Mr Blodmann I'm done have my fun with you, off to another adventure.

 

Please tell me on what planet is the vote of the majority considered a dictatorship.

You cant make these things up!