A little results from from the 2016 GAH

These are the Top scores from the 27 yards down thru 99 - 95 scores

27 yards -65

26 yards 20

25 yards 10

24 yards 4

23 yards 10

22 yards 8

21 yards 4

2o yards 13

This tells you just how easy the Targets are set at, and what has happened since the NEIL WINSTON ERA, I say this because of the debacle Neil Winston caused w/ the end around ATA President Neal Crausaby from the Great State of TEXAS

The 27 yard scores were over Triple of the 26 yard scores..

The top 5 scores were Dominated by 27 Yard Shooters, there were no scores even close to them, The target are so easy being on the max 27 yards is not even ANY WHERE NEAR COMPETETIVE, SOFTER THAN POWDERED DONUTS.

I would like to see a comparison from the GAH scores in 1960 when 3 Dram 1200 fps Shells were the MAX speed you could get.

I found this information very informing, what do you guys think?

These are the top approx. 134 scores. I did not count any scores of 94 or lower

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant......................................Dr.longshot

 

Gary,
Love ya like a Brother, but you are beating a dead horse ... They are not going to turn back the hands of time ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Thanks WPT Love ya too.

 

You would think the TOP shooters would want a COMPETETIVE target, I guess they lack the BALLS to shoot competitive targets.

Targets should be so hard a 100 is not possible, In GOLF there is no 100% score. What Sport should Trapshooting Scores be Comparable to?

To me Trap Scores should be Infinity.
GB.......................................DLS

 

I would like Harlan, Stafford, Marshall, Ohye, and Bill Martin to weigh in on ATA target settings. I actually Challenge them to weigh in on it.

GB.......................................DLS

 

Targets should be so hard a 100 is not possible, In GOLF there is no 100% score.
What would a possible score of 100 percent in GOLF be????? You can only break 100 targets but if you could get a "hole in one" on every hole in a round of golf, I suppose that would be a 100 % score. That is not even possible with the best golfers. Now do you REALLY think that if the targets were made harder that the "TOP DOGS" would still be breaking better averages than the casual shooter who shoots a few hundred targets a year??? I can not get my head around the logic that making the targets (in your words) harder would really make more shooters want to participate????? Why would the guy that is only breaking 85% of the targets he shoots at want to shoot more difficult targets and lower his average?? I understand your logic in that if the targets were more difficult that the "high average" shooter's averages would drop but so would the shooters with a lower average see the same or greater drop. Why would that make for more shooters??? Please make me understand what this would do to increase the number of shooters!!!!!!!!!!!

 

XT, What you are not entering into the logic ,is the targets would not be that much harder for the short yardage shooters. The farther back you stand the more difficult the properly set target is. It is time to let the average not be the deciding factor in this sport. Are all golfers expected to play the same course as the top dogs? They have three different tee boxes for the different skill grade of the players. We in trap have ten different yardages. I would like to see it extended to thirteen yardages. That would give the less talented a better chance of winning on one of their good days.

The top shooters did not get where they are by lowering the bar. They got where they are by hard work and being determined to win. If the game is made easier how could a shooter be elated by winning a meaningless championship? Just because they enter a competition does not mean they can win. They should work at the game analize what they are doing right as well as what they are doing wrong. Until they understand that, we can not erode the sport to make up for their lack of ambition to improve. Roger C.

 

XTShooter....Pay attention

Example 1
We used to get 4 times the money for example a 50 straight. Joe bag of donuts or the average shooter needed to win some money if he was practicing around 600 birds a week to stay competitive. The targets got easier and that $1,500 he used to get turned into $150. That is because there were 15 times more shooters with a 50 straight. Joe quits spending money on shells to practice. He wins less and puts the gun away.

Example 2
Joe bag of donuts gets in the shoot-off again. He used to shoot factory loads. As money rewards left Joe couldn't even afford to shoot in the shoot-off. He knew that 200 targets later he would get a $40 trinket or an ATA point. Big whoop! Now Joe does not enter tournaments where he may have to be in a shoot off.

Example 3
Joe bag of donuts was a blue collar shooter. Sometimes he was off Tues-Thurs. So that was when he shot at a grand. He gets in a tie on Tuesday as he should have predicted. The ties carry over until Friday since scores are high. Joe has to work Thursday night. Now Joe regrets wasting his money shooting for a tie earlier in the week.

Example 4
Joe goes back to his club. They shoot for meat on Sundays. He shoots $15.00 worth of reloads and pays a $20 entry fee. He comes home with $75.00 worth of hamburger. He does the math. No motel. No shoot offs. No risky options that dont pay. He doesn't have to travel far to shoot and he is proud that his money did not help finance a $17,000 gun for an ATA crook.

Joe remembers when he earned enough money to attend college shooting trap. He might be a blue collar shooter. But he isn't stupid.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

XTShooter....tell me what part of the story you don't understand. It is a true story. It's my story.

 

So you are saying that if the ATA returned to 3 hole or equivalent and were thrown 50 yards, you would be shooting ATA targets again?

First of all, I am not opposed to changing the rule back. Honestly, I shoot to get better and because I enjoy the camaraderie of other shooters because we share a common interest and enjoy the same things. I also know that at least in the league at the club I shoot at, if a new shooter wants to get on a team and he knows a team that has been shooting for a while and is shooting from the 24+, he is a lot more hesitant to join that team. If he could get on the team that is shooting from the 20, he will go that route. This tells me we would lose him if he had to be handicapped more. Even though everyone was shooting those targets, if they are more difficult, the new guy gets discouraged and quits.

I would have no problem with adding concrete except that it would be pretty big investment for all of the clubs. Especially the ones that are just getting by and hosting a couple ATA shoots each year it would not be very cost effective.

Again, I am not saying I don't want to see the target settings changed, I just don't think that is why the membership is declining. I think it is a multitude of things that are causing the decline. The target settings is the absolute smallest reason.

 

XTshtr: You are very wrong, what happened was done over years of making changes some drastic, and some small. The ATA was overtaken by some top dog shooters who got in the BOD line up for their gun, and changed the Lewis Class percentages to get a higher return, and reduced the number of Lewis Classes to make it more effective, it also got that lower average shooter when he hit the 2nd top lewis it was divided by a lot of shooters for a lower pay out.

The ATA gave out 2 2yard, yardage reductions w/o Delegates approval, this should never have happened. I am guilty of not turning it down, but my thoughts at the time was it was a wholesale reduction and 1,000s were given, I felt turning it down was going to cost me money, because 4 yards off was going to put me back on the Money Trail. But in Reality I had slowed way down registering the years before, mainly because of age, and being on retirement, both being detriments.

Neil Winston and his delegates dumbed down the Sport Of Trapshooting to it's lowest Level ever, Targets so slow, short distances, narrower angles, and faster shells allowed 1 1/8th oz to 1290fps + or - 90 fps which allowed 1380fps 1 1/8th oz shells, before being illeagal, his numbers not mine.

If I had total control over Trapshooting rules and target settings and Shell tolerances, I would tear up the present rule book, And Reprint a 1956 Rule Book in it's entirety. The only addition would be the Voice Activated Pulling.

It would also re-instate the Industrial Class which would include anyone from manufacturing Reps, to Shooters charging for Classes & Instruction.

Targets would be thrown to those specifications. Remember they can be wider than a straight-a-way from posts #1 and #5 and still be legal.

You will still see top shooters, that will always be in every sport, what you will see is fewer ties, less 200 straight singles, Less shootoffs, Less carryovers on 16s and Doubles. all Lewis Classes will be 50/30/20 with 4 max lewis classes at Grand American. There absolutely will be no 60/40 Lewis's.

One Mandatory Option on GAH will be playing the FORD PURSE, I believe it was a $5.00 option, every shooter is in it, If you break a 25 in hdcp you are in a shoot-off. Decided by the targets you break in the event only, like it used to be. A target only shooter is a possible winner, a 100 straight you win only 2 FORD PURSES the first and HOA. Only us old timers remember how they worked.

There will be less Trophies, but better ones, worth winning.

Pay outs will be higher.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant....................................Dr.longshot

 

XT,

There are very few clubs that would need to add concrete to the 30 yard line. Many do not have shooters in attendance that have attained yardage past the 27 yard line. They could just level the ground with out concrete, I'm sure no one would complain about that. This would give them time to add the new yardage. Many would only need one field, with voice calls all 100 targets can be shot one one field. The added yardage is not the big problem it is made out to be. If it is of benefit to our sport it could be worked out with a little effort. Roger C.

 

Roger,

At my club we do not have 3 yards room to add behind the 27. There are light poles that also include power boxes that would need to be moved to accommodate a 30 yard line. Not to mention the fact that IF there were a shooter to show up at a registered shoot at this club, how many shooters would be saying "why does he get to shoot all his targets on one trap while the rest of us have to shoot on 2 or 4?" We all know how shooters get when someone gets a perceived advantage!!!!!!!

 

Dr.,

You seem to address the GAH with your response and not the entire ATA. The ATA does not require the shoots that do not have ATA awards to do anything as far as awards or options. Whatever you do at your shoot is up to you. Are you suggesting the ATA have a standard rule for options?? I can't say for sure but I think you have suggested that the entire ATA would benefit from going back to the old target settings but the ATA can't or shouldn't require clubs to do things with options. If they did would there be limits?? What if a club wanted to put $10,000 in a option but the ATA says you have to limit the option pay out to be (for example) "no less than $100 and no more than $1000? I know this is unrealistic but wouldn't the ATA have to put some kind of limits on it so that the money would be there for the shooter if they want draw more shooters??

You seem to be saying that if the target settings were changed it would increase the number of shooters because there would be more money in it for the ones that played the options. Why would I play the options if I was off the leader board on "easy" targets thinking that I would have a better chance on the "harder" targets? I understand that the harder targets would potentially make the payouts bigger due to less shooters breaking the higher class scores but you have also lowered the number of shooters getting any money back at all. Why would the Class C, 22 yarder want to play more options to win a bigger pot when he isn't winning any money playing the options now? Why would a new shooter want to go to a shoot with harder targets? Because he can win more money? He most likely won't play the money until he has a few shoots under his belt and realizes he may have a chance to win. If he sees the leader board with a 94, 2-93s and 3 92s leading and he just shot an 83 does he think differently than if he shot a 90 and there were 3-98s and 2 97s leading?

The gist here is what it takes to get more shooters in the game. If making the targets harder to do that I'm all for it! I'm just not sure that it will. I think there are quite a few more things in play that is taking people away from trapshooting than the difficulty of the targets.

 

I think harder targets may attract more shooters. Trap is turning into a "miss and out" game which is not fun.

 

XT...with respect I have to say the following. The difference between me and you is I attend to clubs in the middle of trapshooting land. I go to 2 clubs that have a hundred shooters each that have left the ATA for one of two reasons. 1. Move to the gun hate state. 2. There isn't money in it. It is merely organized practice. Expensive practice.

One of my clubs shoots targets at $12.00 a hundred. Meat shoots in OH and PA are often bigger than satellite grands in the south.

I can tell you are from a small trapshooting state and don't talk to too many shooters. You surmise, guess, and ponder. We are there in the heartland of trapshooting telling you (who isnt) why shooting is down. Too late I think. The EC and
BOD was told what would happen with both decisions. It wasn't rocket science, just bad business.

 

Personally, I think every "Championship" event should have a mandatory purse , but I also feel that anyone who earns any portion of their income from lessons, sale of DVD's, instructions, etc should be taken out of the average shooters purse and put into one of their own , so they can shoot against other's on the same level ... I do not think it has to be a big amount of money but something being as it is a Championship event ... I'm not convinced any of the TOP GUNs (many) get any satisfaction out of beating "Joe Average shooter", ( no offense Joe) but if that is the way its set up they have no choice but to take your money more times than not, many times even if they do not win the event ... The technical advances we realize today should or would make it easy to separate the so called Pro's from the average shooter without much trouble ... There are certain shoots where I feel shooters should play the money or you don't belong there (personal opinion , probably wrong) because if by chance its your day, you can score big time ... To eliminate the Top Guns ( who give lessons, instructions, and sell DVD's ) it would make it a lot more appealing to a lot of shooters to play the money at least to some degree ... I would never go to the grand, or some of the Satellite Grands and not play something any way (just in case) , I also do not care for carry overs because today might be my day and tomorrow may not be depending on the activities after the day shooting ... Steve's place in Las Vegas just seemed to be the right place to play the money, I know of many shooters who left there with full pockets on many occasions ... The game has changed and there is no going back because most of the newer shooters have never been confronted with the likes of 3 hole (long and strong ) targets and once confronted with them, they would leave in droves ... The ATA went from trophy's, to medallions, to trinkets to appease its customers, so they don't cut their own blood supply (travel expenses, Guns, etc ) and attend the shoots on someone else's dime ... The changes have obviously not worked out for the betterment of trapshooting, but who's counting or who even cares any more ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

XT,

There are many shoots today where all 100 targets are shot from one field. The ATA say's it is OK to do this. The people that are against the added yardage are the very people that most likely never get there. It is the only way to make the handicap game have a level playing field for all levels of shooter ability. If you know of a better way of doing it, -please post your suggestions.
Do you have even one field that could be extended to the 30 yd. line? If a club can not do the extension, then let the longer yardage shooters use the 27 yd. line. The ATA could allow it if they wanted to. The expense is not a good excuse for not doing the extension. Roger C.