Attention ATA Execs

* There are a bunch of issues that have been put on this and other boards. The issues are obvious.

* As I see it your egos may soon see the crash of what was once a massive organization.

* Sparta is a gaping cash hole. Not even the state of Illinois wants it.

* Without the funds from the heartland of trapshooting there will be no more free guns for you.

* The name "grand" was whored out to an Illinois governor that is now serving time for corruption.

* Our sport was dummied down with obvious results.

* You guys have pooped all over our sport. You better fix it soon. Or you will watch it die.

 

I have a feeling they have heard all of this before and choose to ignore it ... Now, its the game of wait and see ... wpt ... (yac) ...

 

I'm with wpt, They know and they don't care. It's just like Odumbo, his agenda or nothing.

 

"They know and they don't care." ...... They DO CARE about a few things .....

There IS enough in the bank for the "free gun" for the next few in line. So .... they "care" if the "whiners" cry loud enough to get that changed.

Others who may get a six-figure salary, or travel money, or some type of feeding off the 'tit' of the ATA, "care" that "whiners" may spoil it.

When the bank is empty the leaches will seek other blood, and some may carry on because they "care" .

The panic increases as the voice of some gets louder, giving those who worked to position themselves in line a bad case of self-serving tunnel-vision.

 

Things usually don't get better till they hit rock bottom. Lets hope that doesn't happen. (Rock bottom that is)

A new organization may sound interesting, but since things have been declining that probably wouldn't be a good idea.


Regards....Gerald

 

I've stated my opposition many times to the EC's vision of ATA trap shooting. I do not believe there is enough of a core of shooters left. Basically 70 per cent of ATA shooters have left and not been replaced. Gone are the money shooters, the competitive minded, the live bird, and the less affluent working class. Historically this is the group that made the ATA.

Skeet shooting on the other hand was always a snobbery clay target sport, dominated by the affluent country club set that didn't need to win any money to shoot all they wanted too. Winning a ribbon, or breaking a bunch of targets, no matter how tuff made them feel good and something to brag about. Sometime in the past the ATA made the choice to follow that model of registered clay target shooting and this is where ATA trap shooting is at. Follow that choice with sporting clay's coming along and the die was cast.

Could a new organization work, I'm really not sure, but right now I doubt it. Organized trap shooting is in real serious trouble.

 

Brad a question.

When you say money shooters did the ATA provide big money at shoots at one time? Or was it option money that the ATA didn't sponsor financially?

 

Leonidas, To answer our question both. Remember back in the day the ATA only ran the Grand in Vandalia. The added money they gave for that shoot varied, in 1978 I received $800 added money for winning the Clay Target , there was also HOA, HAA, Doubles, and Handicap added money. Also there were compulsory ford purses on the doubles and handicap events, that is right a compulsory money purse at the Grand American.

On top of this because the targets were harder more shooters played the options because of fewer ties. Many times 49 out of 50 would be high in a Grand American handicap and 50 straights were rare. A 100 straight in doubles was even rarer so doubles paid well. At the large money shoots in Las Vegas and Reno there were compulsory purses in all the handicaps. They were generally yardage purses then, but remember back then most handicaps were won by short yardage shooters so the yardage purse was to protect the long yardage shooter, not like today with the soft targets shot in registered that benefits the more experienced shooter the most.

One of the best money shoots was Bob Taylor's 100,000 grand shoot. The last three handicaps paid (As best as I can remember) 3,000 - 2000 - 1000 - then 300 on and on each yardage until the money was gone. Yardage groups were 25 - 27, 24 - 22, 21 - 20, nothing closer. Guaranteed Money was added so the 3 - 2 - 1 was 6 grand for 3 yardage groups for 18K guaranteed for sure. So with this kind of sure money Bob would get 700 to 1000 shooters, compulsory purses at $20 to $30 adds up fast. With all those money shooters in one spot you would also get high options in the 25's and 50's. Also Casino's support trap then , trap shooters of the day were gamblers by nature at loved the games after the days shoot.

A 50 at Taylor's would pay 4 or 5K by itself, and did. The Reno shoots were much the same. The western chain had more options than Florida chain also. You had a younger crowd out west and the old guys stayed in Florida, never as much money there. Hope this answers your question. Brad

 

Thanks for the reply, that was before my time.

 

I don't think they have heard it put in simple easy to understand words as this, where a child can understand what is being said.

 

They are reading many wrong if they think doing nothing is doing the right thing. It is going to get harder for them to find $$$ for their 6 figure salaries and free guns.

 

Smithy so true but look at our government they have not been listening for years and you can see the mess it is in. I hope that both ATA and the USA get their stuff in order.

 

I do not have to shoot ATA targets. We may be getting closer to a new org or no org.

The execs better start listening or there will only be goats, Homeland Security Vans, and Illinois State Highway Patrol in Illinois.

 

I would say the competitive minded are still around. I did not start ATA until 2012 and I see allot of guys who want to win. The old guys I know talk about purses I can't believe existed, but winning is still winning. I posted on TS.com about the IDNR fee of $3 at grand and was executed for my view. But as long as you have to drive 8 hrs+ to Sparta from Ohio/PA and pay $34/100 and be harassed by the IDNR people wont go to Grand. Now I will still go because I think its the pinnacle of our game. But the Cardinal Center is less than 3 hrs from home and has as many shooters, as big of purses, and cheaper camping. Either way for no options targets and shells are $60/event, its allot of money. Any why play options when guys with 98% averages are too?

 

The wedge between the EC, BOD and the membership started before the move to Sparta, which was just a continueation of the EC and BOD not taking anything into consideration that the membership considered to be favorable to the future of the ATA ... This has compounded over time which is why I say they have heard it and just don't care ... There were "Polls" that were completely ignored and never given any consideration because it was not on the agenda of the EC and or BOD ... The EC told the BOD how to vote to get things passed the way they wanted it ... There was a lot of "you build it, and they will come " BS being tossed around which has proved to not be very accurate based on attendance figures and the decline of same ... People talked about camping in tents and peeing in the bushes when the Grand started in Vandalia never taking into consideration that trapshooters have evolved over the years and prefer the comforts of home and real toilets ... People beat their chest and boast about how much they give, (volunteer) yet never mention what they get out of it in the way of expenses, guns etc ... The ATA is in trouble when a very generous member can donate more to support the shoots than the ATA itself, to no avail ... The little grass roots clubs are the support of the ATA with the fees and memberships that they produce, not the Grand ... The ATA gets paid big money by clubs that put on sizeable shoots beside having to pay expenses for the EC and or BOD to be there ... The days of the members mattering are long gone and the Brass Hats are milking it to death ... wpt ... (yac) ...

 

So, to everyone....Stop shooting registered targets - do not join or renew your membership in ATA - the sooner we all do that, the sooner the organization will fall apart and registered trap shooting will become something for the history books. Then Lord Dysinger and his minions can all slap each other on the back and tell the rest of us how right they were.

 

I for one don't want the ATA to fail and go away. I want what most on here talking about and that is to change there ways. Go back to the "old" ways. Why do we have to change so we have more categories, shorter yardage, and the likes just so more people win an event so they feel better about themselves and the ATA thinks they will come back for more shooting. I feel that I don't win an event I need to practice and get my head out of my a$$ and shoot better. I also remember when playing a purse at a shoot actually paid something not just get your money back. The only purse around here that most shooters play is the lewis.

 

I don't think anyone said or implied that at all ... Its nothing to do with Brad, Gary, Dave Berlet or any of the other minions in particular ... Can I ask how long you have been a member of the ATA, not that length of time matters but it might clear a few things up regarding your posting what you said ... I have been a life member for 40 plus years and have seen a lot of changes very few to benefit the members or the future of the ATA itself ... His name is Brad not Lord and nobody is right all the time, not even the Executive Committee of the ATA and or Board of Directors (Delegates) who get told what to do (vote) and when to do it when it comes to things that do concern the futures of the ATA ... Please how long have you been a member of the ATA ..? Thanks in Advance , WPT ... (YAC) ... 17-62225

 

WPT, Please, how long has it been since you've shot ATA registered targets? Thanks in advance.

 

I believe its been 3 or close to 3 years, how bout you ..? Shot right before I had open heart surgery and had a few other things to keep my mind occupied since, wife with breast cancer, treatments, chemo, radiation and follow ups to make sure she is doing well ... Lots of stuff came before shooting trap, I only shoot handicap any way get bored with singles and doubles ... wpt ...(yac) ...

 

Neil,
Nothing personal, but I think that can be debated till the cows come home ... Glad you made it, you'll like this site just as much I am sure ... Personally, I like them both ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Rich: Is for the ATA to go down the tubes, he is encouraging members to not renew . This is the way he reads Brads post.

 

Leonadis: How long have you been a member of ATA, your ATA # verifies membership date. how long

 

"ATC strongly advises that members not use their real names."

Posting ATA Member numbers is about the same as posting real names.

 

1992 and still shooting ATA targets

 

Neil,

I will not debate it with you but if you didn't then you were the only one ... I have messages (E Mails ) from people who were delegates and were told how to vote by the then EC ... It was on the thing that was the most instrumental or destructive to the ATA's existance in as long as I have been a member ... I learned a long time ago when I was dealing with you to take and make notes because things were said and denied but I was to stupid to keep copies so I learned a very valuable lesson, even sent copies to a few trusted friends ... ... I believe very strongly in Integrity and when I give my word its my bond ... Delegates (some) were told what to vote for and when ... Thats as far as I care for it to go, I suggest you drop it ... I do not want to put anyone in a position to have to lie all these years later or defend what they did ... wpt ... (yac) ...

 

WPT: I hope your wife is doing well, I can imagine the stress that you have gone through, May God bless the both of you.
I too went through Open heart surgery, had Aortic Valve replaced 11/14/2002

 

Thank you Gary, So far, so good ... Continual follow ups keep you wondering ... wpt ... (yac) ...

 

Rich, Lord does have a nice ring to it, maybe King of the ATA is what I should aspire to be. After all it looks to me that the EC has enough jesters and clowns to warrant a king.

It would be nice sometime Rich if you had a fact or useful piece of info to share with us as to why your version of the truth is right and mine is wrong. Smart people learn from history, the dithering repeat it and hope for a different outcome. It is hard for me to understand why western shooters have such a blind loyalty to ATA registered shooting. The western clubs and shooters have suffered the most from the ATA's EC mismanagement the last two decades.

If you don't live back here in the Ohio, Pa, New York area you can't understand what we are talking about. The clubs of LV and Reno started on there road to closing when the Eastern shooters quit going. IE no money. You just don't have enough shooters to support a large ATA tournament by yourselves. Here out east though we do, numbers. So moving the Grand west to make your shoots bigger was a looser from the start. It should have been clear back then what was going to be the outcome, but the rosey picture of build it and they will come prevailed.

Then when the ATA decided to give one time 2 yards off, and then did it again hoping to get the Grand numbers up it made the matter worse. In the OLD days a shooter would have had to shoot 4000 targets to get 4 yards off over two years, so scratch those targets from the small clubs. Back then I said and I stand by it today that off all the dumb ideas to come out of the ATA EC's office the 2 yard, 2 yard decision was the dumbest.

You should research the Sparta, Vandalia word fights from the last ten years on TSC and see what side has been proven right. Any time that an EC sponsored idea has improved ATA shooting, please point it out. I can't think of one but you should be able to.


Brad

 

Brad, I think you should be the Emperor of the ATA! Tell your sweet wife hi from me please.

I just hate to see the sport in such bad condition because I need the money?

Barry Kemper

 

Barry, you should be in Florida then. I remember you shooting quite well there and probably taking some money home with you. With Tucson up next you could probably make a little there also.

 

western shooter, us western shooters are tired of those guys carrying off all our cash! We're doing a target count to add a few painted aluminum targets to their diet come Spring Grand time! The sound of music?

HAP

 

Hap, I coming with the same squad of enforcers and we still haven't figured out how to slow you down. The dove incident I tried last time didn't work so we're still a little confused but if you put up another big one we'll probably have to start looking at shooting on the East coast. Start getting ready. They even wanted to take you to dinner to ruin your concentration but I thought that would be to expensive.

 

WS, one dinner wouldn't work for me or ruin my chances either! However,, 2 or 3 fillet mig nons & a couple O prime rib dinners might do the trick for you and your reform school enforcers? I'm not easily distracted but could be convinced if the stakes,, er I mean steaks are right!

I hear they even have areoplanes to fly us wannabees to those easy east shoots too?

H&))ONCLAYS HAP

 

Hap - Plan B, we're going to try and enlist the aid of Tom S. and see what he recommends. Not saying we'll be successful but then again we are all looking forward to seeing you guys.

 

WS, as always, we're all glad to see our friends from the left coast and looking forward to BSn &shootin some with you guys too!

HAP

 

I'd like to, believe me WS. we'll see how work goes.

barry

 

Barry, hope Tucson works out for you. We can probably confiscate a few flats from that Southern California shooter while he's playing cards.

 

Here is a constructive lot for you....