EC ATA feigns dumb? Attorney General 2012 Pull Investigation

The EC replied to the Illinois Attorney General with the following concerning the 2012 Pull discovery.

 

It appears Comptroller Howell is implying they get their information here. You tell me.

Merlo out


Note: As always many thanks to those that work hard to get us the information. (you know who you are )

 

PATRICK DAWSON should now be investagated to see just how he is connected to Robert Taylor. This deal smells////. Why would Mr taylor go the way he did to get the ATA this property. I would also check the ability of the person that did the appraisal on the property. I have seen Sparta and the property and I do not think the valuation is correct. The ATA did its own investigation? Along with the Ill. AG. I'm sure this is on the up & up. Two of the most trusted offices in the State.//////////////////////// ROGER C. PS they forgot to mention what PULL LLC paid for the property. I'm sure this was a minor oversite.

 

For those of you on here that remember back in 2010 or 11 I posted a thread titled something like Taylor, Hampton, and the ATA (On the old site, the kool aid site, I can't remember the exact title) that got about 25000 plus views where I warned anyone and everyone what was going to happen. Surprise, Surprise, Surprise. Even Gomer would have seen this coming. I'm waiting on Terry Dean to go on one of his pro ATA EC rants like he did just a few weeks back and blame Merlo and American Trapshooter. Com for the ATA's failures, it looks to me like the ATA should thank Merlo for digging up the info and Pull 2012 on Taylor that the brains of the ATA missed.

What the Illinois AG needs to be investigating is farther back in time around the dates of 2002, 2003, 2004 when the State of Illinois was lied to by the then EC about how many shooters would be going to a Sparta Grand. That's the first big crime and insider dealing.

Thanks Merlo for finding the proof in black and white and posting it here, this is the stuff I've know for years. I think it's too late for the ATA though because it looks like just about anyone that gives a shit has stopped shooting. Brad Dysinger

 

Not one damn delegate caught this?

None of the EC members knew?

Someone tell me why a vice president was doing his best to intimidate others from discussing this.

Controller Howell learned about this from this website. That is some funny stuff!

 

The expense checks and petty cash must not cover it for some of the big wigs, so they in turn rip off the Membership by flipping a building on them ... There is no doubt this was all pre planned , buy it, sell it to the ATA at a nice hefty profit and hope its never exposed ... The Corporation has since been dis solved but the evidence is still available ... The EC, ED and some of the Bod should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and made to pay restitution x's 2 ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

$47,500 in "rent" money before a $100,000 purchase .... No one would ever think they were trying to hide the "profit" .... "no harm resulted to the ATA" LOL

"$2,500" monthly "rent" for a "$100,000" property ?????????? "Rental Property" in "Sparta" must be in high demand to "rent" for a price like that. I always felt lucky to get $1,000 per month out of a $100,000 property .... in much better locations than "Sparta".

 

ROGER C. PS they forgot to mention what PULL LLC paid for the property. I'm sure this was a minor oversite.[/QUOTE]

Roger,

I have preached this "simple" oversight many times....Yes indeed, way too many people in charge of reviewing this Oversight completely missed it ?

I would vote to have our friend Paul Shaw reinstated as chairman of the oversight committee, but I AM SURE he would decline the nomination...

He got screwed once, and that was plenty for him.

Thanks for reminding the forum of this "simple" oversight of leaving 2012 out of the Pull LLC.

Ya gotta love it !?!?!?!!!!

 

These people have no honor, they are like the scavengers that roam the streets of the slums in any city. You can not shame people with no honor, they are a little like sycopaths they have no feelings for any one but them selves. Roger C.

 

How many people would "dissolve" a "LLC" that received $147,500 in "rent" and "purchase" money, for a return on a supposed $75,000-ish investment .... for one transaction before it's second birthday ????

That type of investment talent would have investors beating the door down wanting to do business .... unless investment talent had NOTHING to do with such success ....

 

Not a get rich quick scheme....get rich immediately.

A few of those names on the Real Property Committee stand out.

Do you guys think these are fellows that are easily fooled or quickly make fools of others? Interesting. Great information.

 

I think someone read Trump's...The Art of the Deal.

 

I really need to explain my above post of the page listing the Real Property Advisory Committee contained in the August 2011 E. C. minutes.

It was actually in response to a private PM with another forum member but I mistakenly posted it in this open discussion. Since its in plain view now, I felt I should provide some details so there is no misconception about it. I was simply providing information regarding who were the members of this committee during the period when the property at 1105 E. Broadway St., Sparta, IL was purchased, leased to the ATA, sold to 2012 Pull LLC and finally purchased by the ATA.

With the recently admitted involvement of Rob Taylor in 2012 Pull LLC who sold the property to the ATA, I am hopeful that all official ATA Committees learn the importance of conducting a thorough investigation. That's the duty of each Committee member. Additionally, I hope the current Executive Committee has already interviewed Mr. Taylor and others to determine if the 'Conflict of Interest Policy' or any Federal or State regulations violated. Continuation of our association's 501(c)(3) status may depend on it.

I'd certainly be interested in reading a report on that meeting and would hope our Board of Directors would also.


HB

 

HB, Thank you for the clarification. I doubt if there will be any investigation. One person could not have pulled this off buy them selves. I do hope there is an investigation by the proper authorities as well there should be. An internal investigation would be like letting the foxes investigate the hen house. Roger C.

 

It sounds to me like there has already been an investigation. The ATA already admitted to the AG that Taylor failed to disclose his conflict to the ATA ... that means the policy was not adhered to. The AG was provided with this info and the background on the transaction with Tayor's LLC and it sounds like they took no further action as a result of their investigation.

Remember, in many states, there is not even a requirement to have a Conflict of Interest policy, so violating a policy is a not in and of itself a crime. The AG had the info, and if they determined there was a crime, I would have expected they would have taken some action by now.

ATA obviously needs to step up and pay more than lip-service to these policies. I'm sure that was part of the AG's "suggestions" to the ATA that were hinted at in the ATA counsel's comments. I think you will see more discussion of the policy, and discussion of the need for annual disclosures by board and EC members being enforced. I would hope so at least.

 

I'll close the barn door.

Where the hell is that cow?

 

Would you care to explain your definition of "lip-service" ????? Some may take offense to the implication ....

 

Bat,
There are rules of conduct when you sit on the board of a non profit corp. Are you telling the members of the ATA that it was all right for a member of that board to profit from his neferious actions regarding the sale of property to the ATA as a member of that board? By lip service do you mean they should tell the members before hand that they are going to rip off the ATA for their own personell gain? Sounds like a good idea to me. Do you really think the members believe much of what you say? How are you connected to the EC and the BOD? Roger C.

 

Roger I will be making a call to the Illinois Attorney Generals office for up date on my Complaint to AG Office and see what is happening, I think they have to answer me on my complaint.

Gary Bryant..................................Dr.longshot

 

Why?

Who told you the investigation(s) are over.

 

Bat

Did someone tell you this was just about the Attorney General in Illinois? Are they the only folks that would investigate this?
________________________________________________
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-p...on-requirements-section-501-c-3-organizations
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-p...on-requirements-section-501-c-3-organizations
If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.
______________________________________________________________________

I am not an expert. Do you think the above laws come into play?

 

No, I didn't say that Roger. I answered a question about whether the Conflict of Interest Policy was followed. Then I pointed out that the ATA told the AG about those violations in the document Merlo posted. Based on the document Merlo uncovered, and the ATA counsel's statement about the case being closed, I can only conclude that the AG did not feel the facts warranted any criminal charges. I don't think that would have happened if a board member or EC sold the building to the ATA for more than it was worth. I could be wrong, maybe the AG doesn't know what he is doing and they missed the nefarious part.

Butterly, the ATA counsel said the investigation was closed. I have seen nothing to dispute that. have you?

"Did someone tell you this was just about the Attorney General in Illinois?" Well, the title of the thread is "EC ATA feigns dumb? Attorney General 2012 Pull Investigation" so the AG investigation is what I was addressing.

Regarding the tax issues you asked about, certainly could come into play, lots more details to trip over there.

Hey, if the property wasn't worth what the ATA paid for it, all bets are off. Of course ATA had an appraisal so someone will have to determine that was incorrect and significantly overvalued. We have seen no indication that the AG felt that happened. Without that, there isn't likely to be the big deal you seem to want to see - meaning criminal charges or revocation of tax exempt status.

 

Phil Kiner (Delegate) made the statement that the Delegates were told by the EC (?) via the ATA's Legal Counsel that the investigation was concluded and there was nothing to pursue at this time per the IAG ... The Delegates supposedly were notified even to the extent that said investigation cost the ATA (members) $3,800 ... The seller of property for sale sets the price, not the IAG so if it was over loaded , not sure that would matter to them ... Lynn Gipson it seems would be in direct violation of any conflict of interest being as he is employed by the ATA as the ED, has a shot reclaiming business operated out of Sparta, as well as his gun business on the grounds of the WSRC ... I did not copy the posting from Phil Kiner so this is from re call .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I think you summarized the ATA statement part accurately.

The AG would be interested in the sale price being inflated since that is really the main issue they are concerned with as far as this transaction goes. Remember, in this case it is not illegal to sell something to a organization on which you serve on the board, you can even profit from the transactions. It is only illegal if the sale price is unreasonable (greater than fair value). If the sale price is reasonable, there can still be issues, but the big issue is inflating the price over fair value.

I don't see how Gipson can be deemed in violation of the policy from what's before us. I don't think the policy prohibits the ED from dealing with the ATA, but it certainly has to be monitored and disclosed. A Conflict of Interest Policy can, but usually does not, prohibit conflicts of interest between those in control and the organization. What the policies do is require that such relationships be disclosed, monitored, and that the involved persons do not vote on the contracts etc. Taylor failed this aspect miserably, we haven't seen anything about Gipson so I won't say he is in violation of anything without that knowledge.

 

I called the IAG office and they will be contacting me on their Investigation and results plus any pending investigations, from my complaint that I filed, plus anym other pending investigations as per FOIA act.

Gary Bryant....................................Dr.longshot

 

Bat .... Please stop with your inflated ego bull-shit .... enough is enough ....

The INFLATED rent prior to the quick sale says something .... does it not ?????

You can give "lip-service" to who you choose .... but enough of your sugar-coated bull-shit ....

 

Gee User, no BS here, simply trying to point out that it is not illegal to sell (or lease) something to an organization, and it is not a violation of any conflict of interest policy if handled properly. Some here might not understand that. Selling or leasing at inflated prices is a different story.

The ATA's release said the AG found nothing illegal. Since they were apparently provided copies of the lease and the building purchase documents I can only assume the AG's opinion on the lease matter differed from yours. The ATA counsel's statement that everything was legal is the closest to any factual info I have seen posted on the matter here.

If the building price was truly inflated above fair value, or the lease payments were truly inflated above market, I would hope that Mr. Taylor as a member of 2012 Pull LLC would be in trouble and ATA made whole on the deal. Its just that I have seen no facts showing that to be the case yet, and I have no reason to believe the ATA counsel's statement was fabricated. If it turns out the AG is still looking into the matter, and I can't tell from the posts here if any of you know that or not, maybe more will come out.

Maybe you have some credible info that the AG has not closed the case, maybe the IRS will raise some issues, who knows? Until that time I have no reason to doubt the attorney's statement.

Actually, it looks like Gary might find out some of these answers, at least he is trying to get actual facts on the case and not just posting opinions to sound like facts.

 

Well gee Bat .... I am just "trying to point out" your BS .... Trying to hide the total "price" of the "deal" with inflated rent looks foolish, much like you do.

"at least he is trying to get actual facts on the case and not just posting opinions to sound like facts" .... that sounds like something you may want to try.

So, gee Bat, save the bull-shit for your buddies while you all enjoy the "lip-service" each provides.

 

For "Bat" .... http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/moral obligation

"MORAL OBLIGATION. A duty which one owes, and which he ought to perform, but which he is not legally bound to fulfill.
2. These obligations are of two kinds 1st. Those founded on a natural right; as, the obligation to be charitable, which can never be enforced by law. 2d. Those which are supported by a good or valuable antecedent consideration; as, where a man owes a debt barred by the act of limitations, this cannot be recovered by law, though it subsists in morality and conscience; but if the debtor promise to pay it, the moral obligation is a sufficient consideration for the promise, and the creditor may maintain an action of assumpsit[sic], to recover the money. 1 Bouv. Inst. n. 623."

Gee Bat, Do you think the "ATA leadership" has any "MORAL OBLIGATION' to the membership ???? Or is it a game of "is it legal", and/or "catch me if you can" ????

And Bat .... be careful to not over-play "Devil's Advocate" .... http://www.theleadershipadvisor.com/blog/2013/12/03/playing-devils-advocate-can-trash-your-culture/

"I’m not sure how we got to this point, but it is a dangerous practice that can wreak havoc on organizational culture. Often times, the devil’s advocate role devolves into a passive aggressive facade for petty politics. The emotion created from a company culture like this is one of distrust, cynicism and vengefulness[sic]. Not the most helpful emotions for top performance."

 

User, I'm just stating facts based on what has been posted here. You can call it BS if you like. You keep talking about "inflated rents" just like some insinuated the purchase price was inflated. I don't know if either is true, just pointing out that based on what Merlo has found so far, and what the ATA counsel stated, it looks like the AG disagrees with you.

Maybe Gary's inquiries will find the AG has not actually closed the case, and maybe they will find fault with the lease amounts. Until then, it sure seems the best info available to us is that the case has been closed without significant findings. The fact that you insist the lease amounts were overstated, without any backup to support your opinion, does not make it so. Go ahead and give us some analysis of what the market rates are in that area and how they compare to the subject property. Maybe I will agree with you, who knows.

If the property was bought below market value as has been stated, and if the lease payments were reasonable I don't see any moral failures on the part of the ATA. Again, the AG does not appear to have had any issues with those matters, so why should I believe you? If the facts turn out differently, then I'm all in favor of prosecuting whoever is responsible to recover lost dollars, if possible. I'm just not going to hang someone based on the info you have posted so far.

 

Bat,
I ask you about four specific questions. YOU HAVE EVADED ANSWERING THEM. PLEASE TRY TO RETAIN A LITTLE CREDIBILITY BY ANSWERING THEM. Your answers will let people on here know if you are worth listening to. Roger C.

 

Sorry Roger, I thought I answered your serious question already, but here goes:

1) No, it is not ok for a member of the board to profit from his nefarious actions with the organization. It's ok for him to profit from a sale to the organization as long as the sale price is reasonable, but not if he is falsely inflating the price. First, do we agree on that distinction, it is important? It isn't a problem if you make a profit selling trap machines to your club at normal market prices, but it is if you sell the machines at an inflated price to rip-off the organization. Many shooters deal with their clubs at below market prices, but there is no requirement to do so. The next part of it is you seem to be assuming the sale price here was inflated above market based on some facts I'm unaware of. If you are right about that, I would agree with you, problem is I haven't seen any credible evidence supporting that position. Some here called for an AG investigation, even suggested the ATA voluntarily call in the AG to investigate, and now the best info available to us is the AG actually did investigate and closed the case without recommending prosecution of anyone or stripping the ATA of its non-profit status in the state. At this point I'm not going to believe some posts from this website over the AG. If it turns out the AG is not done, and eventually determines something was illegal, I will feel the same as you.

Now to what I thought were not really serious questions:

2) Regarding lip service, it was pretty clear what I meant. In case you really did not understand it, and really want an explanation it goes like this: If the organization has a policy in place but ignores it, they are only paying lip-service to it. They say they have a policy if ever asked about it, but in reality it serves no purpose. That sounds like what ATA had in going on with this transaction since they admitted Taylor failed to properly disclose his relationship with the LLC. Not a good situation, and I would expect the ATA to start educating all board members about it and being a lot more careful in the future. Until someone shows some facts supporting that the ATA was ripped-off in this case, no, I would not make any such claims.

3) I don't know if the members believe much of what I say, I'm not sure how many members are reading this. I would think that anyone without an axe to grind would understand what I am saying. Specifically, what statement in this thread have I made that you do not believe?

4) I never said I was connected to the board or EC at all. No more connected than you.

 

Come on Bat .... Your getting weak and stupid ....

"it looks like the AG disagrees with you" .... How is this "fact" and not "hearsay" ????

hear·say
ˈhirˌsā/
noun
noun: hearsay

" information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor."
"according to hearsay, Bob had managed to break his arm"
synonyms: rumor, gossip, tittle-tattle, idle talk; More
stories, tales;
informal the grapevine, scuttlebutt, loose lips
"that's all hearsay, and I don't care to listen to such tripe"
" Law
the report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law."
"everything they had told him would have been ruled out as hearsay"

Please present your FACTS to .... "it looks like the AG disagrees with you" .... or stop your bull-shit ....

 

User, when I say "it looks like..." I am giving an opinion. When I say something along the lines of "it is not illegal..." I am stating a fact. I try to be clear in my posts, but certainly might not have been careful enough somewhere above, I'm not going back to look. I have repeatedly referred to the ATA's attorney's statement as the best information available here, and that I had no reason to believe it was a lie. I guess you discount even Merlos's document since we don't really know where he got it? No way I can prove his post is real, but I have no reason to not believe it.

On the other hand, I see many claims of the ATA being ripped-off, inflated prices etc. and have seen no true facts to support those claims. Best info I see is what Merlo posted and what someone said Kiner posted, I have no reason to doubt either of them.

 

Come on Bat .... Why so selective ????

"I see many claims of the ATA being ripped-off, inflated prices etc. and have seen no true facts to support those claims."

Then, "I see is what Merlo posted and what someone said Kiner posted, I have no reason to doubt either of them."

You ONLY need "FACTS" to support certain things .... WHY ????

Who are you to have ANY "FACTS" ???? You want to pick and choose what "hearsay" you want to support.

Are you .... The ATA Attorney ???? .... Someone in direct contact with the ATA Attorney ???? .... Someone in direct contact with the IL-AG ????

What makes you think I am unqualified to know if rent/lease amounts are "too high" ????

Do tell what makes YOU the one qualified to know what "hearsay" needs "FACTS".

 

Bat,
When the price of a building doubles in 6 months, it leaves a lot of room for speculation that something smells. When a person 1500 miles from the building has the foresight to make a purchase at about half of the appraisel price of the supposedly prime property it leaves one to wonder how this happened. If you have ever been to Sparta it should be evident that property prices are not out of sight there. The whole deal leaves anyone with a little common sense to wonder just who benefited from the fantastic gain on the sale. By the way it is verboten for anyone sitting on the BOD of a non profit enterprise to profit from doing business with the non profit and then voting on the deal as a board member. That alone could negate the non profit status of the ATA. Do you believe that none of the other board members new about the logistics of the building sale? If you do I have a bridge for sale, and you should be interested in it.
I looked at a three bedroom home in Sparta, when the ATA first moved there. It was a very nice home and was very cheap. $15,000.00 asking price. It was well taken care of, but the local bank told me it is over priced. Roger C.

 

I can get banned for voicing my opinion in some places, was actually being nice ... No Body wants the grand ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Do we honestly believe that any of the names, or the leaving off the 2012 in the minutes, would have come to light if it weren't for diligent work by some on the behalf of the membership?

And would Mr. Howell ever have asked Mr. Taylor that all so interesting question about IF he was the owner of 2012PULL LLC if it had not been brought up on this forum ?

Thank You moderators for allowing the Common Membership the opportunity to ask questions, and voice our opinions on this site.

There is absolutely NO intent to injure anyone's integrity on here, the membership is just asking questions, and voicing their opinions on the matter.

 

Thanks Roger, valid questions. I am in full agreement that this deal looks really bad, and posted to that effect here long ago. It does not stink solely as a result of the transaction with a related party, it stinks because the disclosures about the deal, and possible reasons that the structure of the deal may have been a good deal for the ATA were not documented properly. Without that, it leaves the door open for all of the accusations we are seeing here.

I was not aware the price of the building doubled in six months. I assumed real property values in Sparta were fairly low, but $15,000 for a very nice 3-bedroom house is a shock to say the least. If the fair value of that property was really $50,000 as I'm assuming you are saying when you say it doubled, then there are even more questions. Only thing is, it was appraised for much, much more than that before the purchase. Yes, the appraiser might have been negligent, but I don't think anyone here can really say that without more information.

I find it hard to believe the various ATA committees did not know about Taylor's membership in the LLC. I don't find it hard to believe that they were aware of the relationship but felt it was still a fair deal for the ATA. If it was a fair deal, they should have gone out of their way to document the reasons, because, as you say the entire structure of the transaction just screams that something is wrong. This is the type of situation where you want to make sure all the i's are dotted and t's crossed.

You are correct that a voting member should not be voting on any transaction in which he has an interest, I never said he could. What I was pointing out is that it is not illegal to make a profit on a sale to an organization when you are on the board. Taylor did not comply with the conflict policy, and that should not be forgotten by the current board. Despite this failure, Taylor's vote was apparently not a deciding factor. We don't know of the structure of the LLC either, I don't at least. Was Taylor a member, or a manager of the LLC, or both. Did he have any capital interest? Can't hang him for scamming the ATA without knowing that.

So, I say the structure of the transactions certainly raises the question of impropriety. That does not mean it was improper, we don't know all the facts. Weighing against all the accusations are the appraisal and the AG investigation, which so far all we have heard is it was closed with no findings of wrongdoing. Maybe there will be more to the story as Gary has some info coming.

 

Bat,
If you want to get to the head of this transaction. Check on Mr Howell. How is he connected to Mr. Taylor. Was he a straw buyer? Did any other members of the BOD have connections to Mr. Howard? Who was the apprarser? They will nearly all the time give the appraisal value that the seller wants. I have done business with a few of them. I do not know a bout Ill. licensing but in most state there is no degree for appraisers. No licence needed. Just hang out your sign. Hell he owned the LLC. Bat go back to some of the older posts the LLC, was vetted on this forum. Roger C.

 

Prove it Bat .... You state this as FACT, so show your proof, not your opinion on hearsay.

Prove to the readers here who you are so they know when you post something as FACT it is true, or stop your bull-shit.

 

Quoted from the original document in the first post.

"On August 14, 2012, the property was appraised by a licensed appraiser at a value of 132,843.000. On October 11, 2012 the ATA exercised their option under the terms of the lease agreement to purchase the property for the contract sales price of 100,000."

 

A quick check on Zillow yielded these results.

1105 E Broadway St,Sparta, IL 62286
Studio · -- baths · -- sqft Edit
NOT FOR SALE
Zestimate®:
Rent Zestimate®: $900/mo
Est. Refi. Payment: $67/mo
Get pre-approved

Tired of renting your office space? Own for much less than rent. Over 5000 sq. ft. office building features reception area, 6 private offices, roomy cubicle area, large 31 x 16 conference room, kitchenette, storage room, training area, and warehouse area. 2 offices have private restrooms, plus there are 2 additional restrooms. Property also includes over 3000 sq. ft. detached pole building, half with concrete floor and electricity. Plenty of room for your needs plus lease a portion out for extra income. The possibilities are endless!

PRICE/TAX HISTORY

Price History
DATE EVENT PRICE $/SQFT SOURCE
03/28/12 Listing removed $99,000 -- ERA Profession...
06/29/11 Listed for sale $99,000 -- ERA Profession...

 

$147,000 in rent and purchase money? Wowee!

 

Brad has been telling everyone for years that the ATA and it's people are nothing but a bunch of good old boys that will do anything and everything for themselves and won't quit until the money is gone. This is just another example of what he was saying. Everytime Brad or someone points this out, they are shot down, ridiculed and designated as a trouble maker and then poo poo'd so that life goes on. When many examples are shown, life still goes on. If there is something that can be done by the membership, legal action or charges being pressed or ????, it is not being done. Either by the fact that no one cares more than just to bitch or they don't know how to get started doing it. I'm sure there are some very knowlegable life members in the great state of Illinois or wherever the articles of incorporation of the ATA are located that could start or take care of this. I know I don't have a clue as to where to start, but some one sure does. Until such time that the membership rises to the job, the good old boys will continue and the rest will bitch and life will go on. Most of the membership doesn't care as long as they have someplace to shoot. That is why we have what we have. We have everything we deserve, because we let it happen.

 

Well .... "Bat" knows, or should know, quoting something in a post does not make it "FACT" ....

So, what say you "BAT" .... Who are you to know "FACTS"on this topic ????

Would you care to give an answer Bat ????

 

I seem to re call there was also the mention of a Tax Lien on the property that had to be settled as part of the deal ... I can't get to Posting being as I have been banned again for voicing my opinion, actually saying something no body else will say so they do not Piss off the EC, ED, and some of the BOD (facts is facts and them are the Facts Jack ) .... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Who wants the grand, (answer) Not the folks at Cardinal Center, nobody and none of the other clubs either ... (BANNED) ...

 

Roger, Howell is the ATA controller, I have not heard of any indication he was part of the LLC so I don't see where he comes into play? Taylor claims Dawson was the member of the LLC that "profited." We don't know if that is true or not, but it is not patently false on its face. That is why I wondered if Taylor was a manager or a member, or both, or if he had a capital interest. Remember, not all members of a partnership, (LLC) in this case, necessarily share in the income from a sale of property. Regardless of whether he profited or not, he did not comply with the terms of the Conflict Policy. I believe the appraiser is licensed in IL.

All we know is the fact that the ATA has stated the property was appraised for well over the purchase price, the fact that Merlo provided what certainly appears to be a copy of an ATA document to the AG explaining the purchase transaction with cites to relevant sources, and the fact that ATA delegates have said they received a summary on the status of the AG investigation from the ATA, which indicated the case was closed. Gary has stated he is awaiting some information from the AG, but has not had any info to add to the conversation yet. This is the best information available so far.

So, despite all the failings by the ATA here, it appears, based on the best info I have seen, that the AG has closed the case (subject to any new info Gary might post)

 

For you Bat .... http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1105-E-Broadway-St-Sparta-IL-62286/2142507712_zpid/

Look at the "Nearby Similar Sales" .... "$5,000 to $42,000", and their "Rent Zestimate" .... "$675 / $1.2k"

What "comps" do you think this, "I believe the appraiser is licensed in IL", used for the "ATA appraisal" and "rent/lease value" ????

From http://commercial-real-estate.findthedata.com/l/11729/1105-E-Broadway-St-Sparta-IL-62286 ....

"Estimated Value"

"1105 E Broadway St is a commercial property. It has an estimated value of $101,987, which is 155% higher than the $39,976 average for commercial properties in the 62286 zip code."

Gee Bat .... ONLY "155% higher than the $39,976 average for commercial properties in the 62286 zip code."

 

Bat, Go back to some of the info that was posted from city and county and state records about the owners of the corp and who was the purchaser of the property. you are arguing about something that you do not or will not look up. Mr Howell was listed as the Texas buyer of the property. The excess profit went some where, do you have any ideas as to where it went? I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt, but this is beginning to sound like a Clinton deal. The corp. name was not listed properly in the ATA records, this was to try and cover up the real corp. and its officers. Roger C.

 

I have no idea what comps the licensed appraiser used, what weight was given to comps in the valuation etc., but guess he may have had better comp data than the average value for the zip code that you are posting. Real property must be a mess in that area if nearby 5,000 sq. ft bldgs. with out-parcels sell for $5,000 to $42,000.

Wait for Merlo to post the valuation, I'd guess it is available to him if he asks around. Then you will have your opportunity to pick it apart and say the appraiser was negligent.

 

Sorry Roger, I thought you were talking about the ATA controller Howell. I wasn't aware a corporation was involved here at all, and don't recall seeing anything about a Howell from Texas involved, but I will search some when I get more time. Was the info posted here? I only recall seeing info about 2012 Pull, LLC. Patrick Dawson purchased the property first and then apparently transferred it to 2012 Pull LLC. I would assume the profit went to Mr. Dawson, but don't know how much that was. Looks like his purchase was $75,000. Don't know what closing costs he incurred on either end, WPT mentioned some back taxes, any cleanup costs or improvements made prior to sale?

 

Come on Bat .... lighten up, it gets better. Poor "Merlo" says he has a large amount of unpublished material.

I guess the "Grand" pumping 20 to 30 million dollars per year into the area, as reported by the "ATA", didn't do much for the "Real property" values there .... LOL

Hang in there Bat .... I have no doubt you "have no idea what comps the licensed appraiser used" or have much of an "idea" about anything else ....

 

Merlo is pretty good at coming up with information!

 

Bat, (FYI)
Have you ever been to Sparta, Ill to shoot, visit, got lost, or for any reason ..? I had the Pleasure of having been invited to Sparta by a good friend of mine several years, several times before there was any mention or probably even thought of having a shooting facility there ... This friends family lived and worked in Sparta, his sister worked for the hospital, his brother in Law worked for Peabody Coal as a project manager and engineer, father was retired from Peabody Coal and his Brother was in Law enforcement in the area (Dave called him Barney Fife) ... The property where the WSRC sits is strip mined property which is a remnant left over when Peabody Coal was done with the mining associated with and to that area ... Dave's family (my friend) was saying how reasonable property was in Sparta and the general area around it but how it lacked any real development which pretty much remains the same yet today in the that immediate area ... Store fronts on main street from $10,000 and homes in the area for even less than that, which even at the time seemed ridiculously cheap even in Rural America ... Sparta is not, never was, and never will be a tourist destination by the farthest reach of ones imagination ... The "Comps" as stated when compared between then and now seems to be close to right or close enough for piece work based on any knowledge I would have of the area and prices ... Inflation is not a really big concern in the area because nothing changes except the population if someone has a baby or if there are 3 or more on any given day, its a population explosion ... Wal Mart was the biggest deal to happen to Sparta since they filmed a TV show there ...
I talked to one of the Sparta Residents and gathered some numbers on making the purchase of a house (boarding house for shooters) after the grand moved there and for rental ... I was not surprised but more or less shocked at what you could buy a house for and this was in the better part of town according to this resident who knows everything about everything ( you probably know who I am talking about, 20 yarder with a grn truck ) ... The actions and prices speak for them self, someone made out big time ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Is there anything odd between the above two pieces of information?

 

Are you pointing out that it sold 3-9-12 and the lease started 3-1-12, lease agreement entered into 2-23-12?

 

Yes, is that normal?

 

I would not sign a lease from someone for a building the other party did not own yet. I do things differently than the ATA. Have to wonder how that conversation went.

Hey Fred, I am thinking about buying this piece of property. I could secure the loan quicker if you guys would sign the lease prior to the purchase. Sure would make the bank feel better.

But that's just me.......dreaming out loud.

 

It also shows the owner as Patrick Dawson as of March 9th. The lease however was with 2012 Pull, LLC. Did 2012 Pull, LLC have a lease with Patrick Dawson?

 

It was occupied at that time with a huge lease. Not worth much empty. Timing is everything.

 

Very interesting JHunts! Seems to show Taylor as the only person owning at least 5% of the LLC. I don't know anything about the filing requirements for that form, possibly regarding interests that might have already been liquidated prior to filing, but it certainly raises questions.

 

Is this something else that Controller Howell can say he read about it here?

 

Be careful Bat .... that would get you banned in the land where you can not question, have an opinion, or have an original thought ....

Now your face will be placed on a cartoon figure for all to post, so the mental-midgets can scoff at you

 

Chief mental midget is some joker from MT whose momma still dresses him up each morning is shorty pants. I'm still waiting for his picture with fingers in ears crying naa naa whenever anyone says anything negative about his beloved ATA or Sparta. Too bad his parents didn't understand Georgine was a far more appropriate name at birth!

 

Appears that there are still a lot of unanswered questions left for Mr. Howell to inquire about on behalf of the membership.

Thank You Mr. Howell for your service on our behalf.

 

Bat, Just returned from a trip. My BAD I posted the wrong name . My apologies to Mr Howell for my error. Roger C.

 

A licensed appraiser gave an appraisal of 132k for a piece of property that was not only being leased but also had an agreement to sell to the lessor. Someone pinch me. Where is the appraisal for 2010 prior to Taylor's LLC buying the property?

The ATA had already made improvements to the property.

 

The investigation is not closed.

 

More from July 4, 2016 ......

Here says the future ATA property was worth "$27,601" in "03-14-2011" ..... http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1105-E-Broadway-St-Sparta-IL-62286/2142507712_zpid/

ATA claimed value is ONLY "155% higher than the $39,976 average for commercial properties in the 62286 zip code." at that time.....


So ..... after several years of this kind of information, NOT JUST SOMEONE'S OPINION ....... how can some lemmings still believe the ENTIRE current ATA leadership could have NO KNOWLEDGE of what has happened and/or needs corrective action ????????????

 

Have any of you posters ever wondered how many of these type of deals were made that we as members have never found out about? Maybe we need a (GO FUND ME ACCOUNT) set up to let members donate funds for a real investigation of the finances of the ATA, and it's leaders. Roger C.

 

Roger,

I am sure by now you have been advised as I have that the General Membership will be "Notified on a need to know basis".

 

Roger I started a page of my own years ago for the ATA I call it "The go F##K yourself ATA" page and it has worked fine for me. 100% ATA fees free since 2011. Brad

 

Brad, We must all contribute to the pipe layers new gun and $20.000.00 gift. He worked hard for it. Roger

 

Pull2012...the real reason. Bumping this for the newbies.