UPDATE: Are Estates and Top Guns Really the Same?

I have good confidence in Top Guns from 16 but I've had a couple bad rounds with Estates when I really felt I was on the targets. By "bad rounds" I mean I started getting more weak breaks than usual and ended up several birds below my average. Anybody else suspect that Estates aren't really the same as TGs?

-Gary

 

Been shooting them for a number of years. Never had a problem but all I shoot is the 2 3/4 dram loads

 

I don't know if they are the same or just similar.

I have never shot estates as well as I shoot top guns.

Its probably be just me.

 

Straight from a factory rep "They are the same".
Cheddite did manufacture some Estates. They are boxed different and kick a bit more.

 

I can't tell any difference, its all in your mind ... I shoot all 3 - 7 1/2 's ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I also shoot both. I have not seen or felt a difference. I shoot 2 3/4 8s. Have had no problems winter or summer. Ed

 

(NO) made by different companies.

 

Both are manufactured in Anoka, Minn.

 

Federal owns Estate, made in the same plant or so I was told ... wpt ... (yac) ...

 

Actually , there are two different Estate shells . The bright red with brass plated base are made in France with a base wad similar to the cheap Winchesters and the dull red silver based with paper base wad identical to the TG made in the US . Both are distributed by Federal in the States .

 

Hmm, I guess it's not quite as simple of a question as I thought. Maybe I'll chop up a couple of each of the ones I've got this weekend and report finding. It might very well just be me; when I stink I stink good.

-Gary

 

So maybe we are not crazy.

 

So maybe the Federal rep. doesn't know he is talking about??

Lefty

 

NEG was onto something. The Estates made in France, at least, are very different from the USA-made Top Guns.

For the shells I cut up, both 3DE / #8, the Estate shot was more spherical and averaged just under .090" diameter, while the Top Gun shot averaged .096" diameter and appeared oxidized and less shiny.

The powders were dramatically different as shown in the pics. Top Guns: 18.6 grains; Estates: 20.1 grains.

The wads were totally different too.

-Gary

[GALLERY=media, 9]IMG_1203z by GW22 posted Jan 24, 2015 at 11:36 AM[/GALLERY]

[GALLERY=media, 8]IMG_1204ff by GW22 posted Jan 24, 2015 at 11:36 AM[/GALLERY]

[GALLERY=media, 10]IMG_1216 by GW22 posted Jan 24, 2015 at 11:37 AM

[GALLERY=media, 6]IMG_1210rr by GW22 posted Jan 24, 2015 at 11:36 AM[/GALLERY]

[GALLERY=media, 6]IMG_1210rr by GW22 posted Jan 24, 2015 at 11:36 AM[/GALLERY]

[GALLERY=media, 5]IMG_1215kk by GW22 posted Jan 24, 2015 at 11:36 AM[/GALLERY]

[GALLERY=media, 7]IMG_1212 by GW22 posted Jan 24, 2015 at 11:36 AM[/GALLERY]

 

GW, thanks for taking the time to do that.
Flyers

 

Note that the Top Gun shell which was supposed to contain #8 shot actually contained textbook diameter #7-1/2.

When I come across some Estate "Super Sport" in the red/yellow/green box, which I assume are the USA-made ones, I will cut some of those up too.

-Gary

 

Can't argue with those pictures, seeing is believing ... wpt ... (yac) ...

 

[QUOTE="GW22, post:
When I come across some Estate "Super Sport" in the red/yellow/green box, which I assume are the USA-made ones, I will cut some of those up too.

-Gary[/QUOTE]
Yes they are US made and if they weren't marked , you'd swear they were TC that faded in the sun .

 

Just ran into a couple of flats of estate white box that state made in the US with foreign components .

 

That's very strange. From a marketing standpoint, why would a company want to have three different variants out there, all called "Estate"?

Maybe we need to buy the ones marked Super Sport Competition Target Loads in order to get the high-end shells equivalent to Top Guns, LOL.

-Gary

 

The White box Frenchy/Cheddite loads just showed up last year. Probably due to powder shortage issues here.

The red/yellow/green box Estates are manufactured in Anoka, Minn. and are identical to TopGuns.

 

OK, I picked up a red/yellow/green box of USA-made Estate "Super Sport Competition Target Loads."

Significantly different powder, in terms of both type & weight, vs. Top Guns and vs. the white box French Estates:

[GALLERY=media, 25]

-Gary[/GALLERY]

 

[GALLERY=media, 26][/GALLERY]

 

About 8 years ago at the Southern Grand on the Golf side I was talking to Ray Stafford who was shooting the Estates, said Gary they are the same a Federal Gold Medals same components and are cheaper, his motorhome was loaded down with them. They were the Yellow and Red style boxes, the New Top Guns in White boxes are loaded by a sub-contractor, the Blue boxes by Federal. The Estates in White boxes have Metric Shot which are smaller than American Std. shot.
Dr.longshot

 

One would have to be a blithering moron to believe that.

-Gary

 

I wonder why Ray would say that. The few times I talked to him on the phone about wood for a Perazzi he didn't seem like someone that would BS/LIE to you

Flyersarebest

 

Consider the source.

-Gary

 

That's what I mean Gary. Now, I only talked to Ray a few times on the phone and once at the Grand in VANDALIA, but he seemed to be a pretty straight shooter.No pun

I was looking for a used TM1 stock and told him I had one off a Comp 1 single. He could have sold me the TM1 stock but gave me a heads up that the stock I had would work. He didn't have to do that. Good guy.

Flyersarebest

 

Ray isn't the source I was talking about.

-Gary

 

I have a flat or two of Estate 3-1/4 dram 1-1/4 oz , 6's made in MD
I only put the mic on ten or twelve pellets and got numbers from 0.102 to 0.114. Some shiney some dull. The shell I cut did have a couple sets of fused together pellets. I wonder what that would do to a pattern.
The powder was round flake and dark gray almost black. No color flakes. Same as Gary's Top Gun pic. The shells are pretty old so about 90% came out in one lump. I suppose they could use different powders for the heavier loads. Or just more of one brand. The wad was the two piece like the Top Gun in Gary's other pic. That would leave me to believe the TG and the Estates made in MD used the same components.
If I get a chance I'll post some pics.

Flyersarebest