You all Missing The Problem

The problem is the State of Illinois Budget, Nothing, absolutely Nothing is going to happen until The Democrats and Republicans can sit down and propose a Budget that can be agreed upon.

If the ATA Owned their site or stayed in Ohio or in any other state most problem of the GA would be settled

You notice I said most, the 2nd problem is TRUST, Men with TRUST, HONESTY, INTEGRITY which we do not have in the EC & BOD

I wish we could get all to RESIGN and we could start all over again. The Leadership in the ATA Is the WORST it has EVER BEEN.

THAT IS WHERE WE THE MEMBERSHIP NEED TO START
AMEN

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant.............................................Dr.longshot

 

The Job of actually managing the GA Week is at most a 30 day job, does not require a $130,000 employee w/benefits, The ATA Pres., EC, BOD are only needed 4 weeks at most, The CHC even less, this a at home job w/a computer. Why do the Management want to pay salaries to those positions.

The office personnel are the only required employees, to Issue memberships, Record Scores, Schedule shoots. + some other duties. With the State Delegates the Organization is self Running, we do not need the Satelite Grands, The State Shoots is where the real shooting happens.

To be on the All American Teeam you need only be the Top Hdcp, Doubles, and Singles shooters in your State. That's 150 Shooters Total, lets say 300 add 150 Top Female Shooters. The computer selects the finalist from Each State, Recognized at the GA shoot. They get Their Own Shooting Vest & Hat.

This is not a Class Recognition & never should be, just the Best of the Best from each State in Each Hdcp, Dbls, Sgls. Event.

Not everybody gets a Trophy.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant........................................Dr.longshot

 

If a Gun Club wants to hold a Big Money Shoot, it can be a NON registered Event, that is where the action can be GREAT, and cost the Club a Hell of a lot less money, and they make more money.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant.......................................Dr.longshot

 

How would it cost a club less to throw a Non Registered Money shoot vs a Registered Money shoot? I wasn't aware of any fees a club paid to the ATA to host a shoot (Satellite Grands excepted). If you think the trophies for all the classes is the issue, that's a club decision on what, how many, or if they provide awards.

 

More shooters are eligible to shoot a non-registered shoot.

 

HUH ?????

 

Langer hit it on the Head, Let's say Entry is $100 or more, and then in the Calcutta shooters are sold , Buyers buy shooters who they think will win and the buyer gets 70% of his winnings. If the shooter buys himself he will get 100% of his winnings. Shoots like this were Popular in the 60s & 70s Brad Dysinger may Chime in on this. Harold's Club in Nevada I believe was a popular site.

The name of the shoot is the Club's option, they do not pay for any ATA Executives to Attend, or Feed Them or Give them a Bar tab, No Travel expenses, everyone pays their own way.

Any Club could have a Secret Order and hold their own shoots, which I like. And could be a Boone in Todays Market..

Supreme Court Judge Scallia died at one these secret orders in Texas.

A shoot like the Missouri Fall Handicap had Calcuttas, I have been in many of them, A friend of mine here in Ohio won the shoot outright, Bought Himself and got over $3000.00. I won $4,000.00+ In Las Vegas at a Steve Carmichael shoot in the 70s. Calcuttas is where the money is at, and the Greatest Competetion Ever.

Have a $20.00 option and sell the Calcutta on Saturday evening before the Sunday Event, When the Wild Cards are offered watch the bidding Action begin, the winning bid gets his pick of the Calcutta Shooters Entered, I have seen Leo Harrison bring $3,000 +, a lot of shooters bring $1,000+ and a hell of a lot bring over $100
Average bring $20.00 Minimum bid which = $40.00 total entry if not sold, But at most calcuttas if the shooter was not sold he was thrown in the field. When Auction was finished they sold the field, The buyer of the field got 70% of the total field money, he may get 30 or more shooters.

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant...........................................Dr.longshot

 

Could you only imagine if it was held at the CC?

 

Steve's shoots used to pay some big Calcutta money .... I was at one of his shoots at his old club, the winner of the Calcutta bought him self and his wife hit a Straight Flush on one of the Poker machines on the bar, I think they left with somewhere close to $17,000 between both hits ... Those were not all that long ago, but will never be forgotten ... Steve knew how to host a shoot and have a party ... Great times, Vegas Baby ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Gary, very nice explanation of the Calcutta process, but it didn't answer my question.

Langer's answer addresses how a club might make more money but didn't address your comment, 'and cost the club a HELL of a lot less money'.

Obviously you were referring to clubs hosting a satellite grand.

You've got one of the best facilities on the planet there in OH. Talk them into cranking up and widening the targets( can all be done within ATA regs) and then organize a Calcutta at the Buckeye Classic.

 

Why would it have to be a "non-registered" event??? The ONLY rule that prevents "mandatory" purses states it's only not allowed if ATA trophy's are being given. If the club is doing all the trophy's... you can make it as big a money shoot as you want.

 

Iowa guy said, "Talk them into cranking up..., ...( can all be done within ATA regs)..."

Ah... not that part.

"The gun is pointed horizontally. The correct speed for a singles or handicap target is a minimum of 42 MPH, maximum 43 MPH."

How much do you think ATA rules (regs) allow you to crank it up?

 

targets can be thrown to 51 yds. The radar gun rule you cited is only for if you use one. No requirement to do so that I can see in the rule book.

We have heard repeatedly about narrow soft targets. I don't have an older rule book handy, but I think the older standard was a max of 52 yards and I suspect very few clubs threw a 52 yard target. So I do think the rules still allow us to get back to the target setting of days gone by.

 

Whoa, so a trap has a plus or minus in which a target can be thrown. Somehow the ATA thinks it is +/- 1 yard. 50 +/-1 correct.

So a target cannot be thrown more than 51 yards, how are you to ensure in still air a target is not thrown beyond 51 yards. Set it for 50 yards and that gives you the best outcome of not less than 49 yards or more than 51. So really in order to not throw more than 51 yards you set a 50 yard target. Now it should be +/- 2 yards as it was, it may have even been +/- 5 yards at one time. It was not however, at least in the last 50 years anyway, where you can set it at the minimum or set it at the maximum, it was to be set it so NOT ONE target would fall short of the minimum or further than the maximum. In reality there is not cranking it up, as it is based on one thing, not more than 51 or less than 49 which is +/- 1 of 50. The only setting, when distance is concerned, is 50 or an average of 50. Now the speeds, if we use the only testing I know of that has been documented, 42mph averages 48 yards and 43mph averages 49yards. I suppose you can crank it up to average the stake, which is probably just shy of 44mph using the only documented data that I know. It was done I believe on a day when the conditions were documented as something to effect of, a breathless morning, or some such thing to indicate no wind when the testing was done.

Now even then were talking about 1 mph.... so really how much can you crank it up. This isn't lap 3 of Nascar race where the announcers used to "crank it up".

The targets for ATA are narrow and soft. Just a reality.

How wide do you think you can set angles on the targets?

 

44 degrees. I know you know the rule book well and new the answer to that question. 34 degrees is the preferred setting, 44 degrees is a legitimate target.

Yes, you are probably correct. ATA targets are to soft. Bring back the pre 1993 rule of 'not less than 48 Yds' and remove the upper speed limit.

 

.

If you say 44 as meaning 22 +/- of centered I will give you that is a legitimate target. The rest of it is not quite correct. Though I am sure just typos on your part.

I would add the misunderstanding of range is what gave us the radar gun limits we have. 42mph = 48 yards and that is an average of 48, not a not less than 48 yards, at least to the best understanding of the official testing the ATA, might have. I will say I have asked many times for the ATA version of why 42mph was the minimum and have never recieved an answer.

 

Iowa Guy, the targets can indeed be set to 51 yards and be thrown at +/- 22 degrees from the centre stake and be considered legal. First, and foremost, it does not say anywhere in the rule book that not one target may pass the maximum distance of 51 yards. Jhunts is giving his own interpretation of the flights and angles rule, when he indicates that there can be no targets that exceed the maximum yardage. My interpretation, and I think the interpretation of most target setters, is that the distance rule was meant to be an average distance.

I have seen it written many times, where the targets are so much easier nowadays, compared to yesteryear, but I have to question how much more difficult a 48-52 yard target was (given the fact that for every club that threw 52 yard targets, there were 10 (and maybe 100) that threw 48 yard targets), than today's 49-51 yard targets? Many on here like to pound their chest, and recall the days when men were men (and sheep were nervous), that the really difficult target settings were used. Then the rules changed, targets were just lobbed out of the trap, everyone shot better (but them), so they quit shooting ATA competition because the targets were too easy.

 

Which part of my reply was incorrect ?

 

Using the word "set" gives the meaning of nominal, I think you would agree that targets do not go the same distance time after time. The targets are of slightly different weights, they sit on the arm at slightly different distances from the pivot point.

If I set the trap to throw 51 yards it will be +/- 51 yards and the plus targets by the rule book are illegal. Here is the wording, "Singles targets shall be thrown not less than 49 yards nor more than 51 yards.



I think it is pretty plain to see targets shall, you do see the word, "shall" don't you. It doesn't say "some of the targets", It doesn't say, "most of the targets", it says "TARGETS (meaning "all") SHALL be thrown NOT less then 49 yards NOR more than 51 yards."

JO2 said, "but I have to question how much more difficult a 48-52 yard target was", your correct, it was not more, or should not be more difficult at all, there is no difference, they should have been "set" to throw 50 yards in still air, just like they should be "set" for 50 yards in still air today. The exact same thing. For some reason the ATA thought the tolerance of todays throwers are able to throw more consistently, I guess +/- 1 yard vs +/- 2 yards. The setting though would have been the same, to not throw less than or more then, or centered on 50.

Well iowa guy, the question was, "How wide do you think you can set angles on the targets?", and you answered 44 degrees. That is incorrect.

Than you said, "34 degrees is the preferred setting", that is also incorrect. Though you could argue for 1/2 point, maybe.

 

I have this to say the Pat Traps do not have springs, but Rubber Bands, which will vary target distances. Will a Pat Trap throwing a 50 yard taget, set first thing in the morning still be throwing a 50 Yard target in the WARM AFTERNOON after throwing several hundred targets?

I have not seen any information on this aspect, or in the Northern Cold climates after throwing several Hundred?

Also what about different Rubber Band Mfgrs?

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant.......................................Dr.longshot

 

Hunts, seriously ? You knew exactly what I was saying was in relation to the entire field.

The more you nitpick comments..............

You're a moderator here. Ban me if you like. I really don't care.

 

Gary, I've heard Pat Trap rubber bands can need a midday adjustment. I've never seen a request for a reset because of soft targets though. I'm sure it happens from time to time but I've never witnessed it.

 

Come down off the cross. The martyr card doesn't really play well here anyway.

And PLEASE show me where Jhunts insulted you enough that you had to call him what you did.

As far as him making HIMSELF look like that? I assume that would be different than him making YOU look like a ...........?

Not that he did, or even tried to. I just want to be clear in case you decide to never post here again.

 

"Most" pat traps will speed up after throwing a few rounds. So it's possible if you set a 50 yd target .. it would become longer because of the speed up factor. I say "most" because this vary's from trap to trap and rubber band to rubber band. I have seen traps speed up .5 mph.. and I have seen traps speed up 2.5 mph. Anytime you are setting targets.. or are having inconsistent targets you should give the rubber band a real good look over.. with age they can start to crack and/or split. Any sign of this and the band should be replaced.

 

I do not think I can ban anyone. Why would I want to ban you.

I think I agreed a 22 +/- degree target would be a legal target. The question was how wide (in context , widest) can they be set. You answered 44, that is incorrect. I am not sure that should earn me some kind of a name.

I would agree that 44 degrees is the field that should be set.

 

Starting to split frog hairs are we? I mean really, when the target comes out no matter if it's going 49.5 yards or 50.3 yards. The speed of the target is what triggers all those neurons in that gray matter stuff between your ears to calculate the speed of your swing and lead. Just like it does when a Grouse explodes in front of you. No time to figure out speed and angle, just shoot the damn thing. Now speaking of hitting a Grouse, each one you down is the best shot you ever made.

 

Grouse hunting is great fun. I have never hunted with dogs so just about every one was a surprise. Fun, fun, fun.

 

Even when you KNOW they are in that next patch of cover.

It flushes into the open spot you KNEW it was going to fly thru.

The gun mount is perfect, the barrels line up, the swing it TRUE, and you still MISS.

Now THAT can make you feel like a .............

 

Didn't someone get a lifetime achievement award for making the targets easier?

Who took the sport out of the sport?

 

Gee Iowa Guy. You were throwing out statistics and Hunts threw in the correct numbers. Don't like being wrong then dont be wrong. You asked what part of your post was incorrect and Hunts showed you what was incorrect.

Thanks for the read. No need for naughtiness.

 

Amen brother, spoken like a true upland game hunter! I did not take up trapshooting until my thirties. Started hunting when i was 12. When i first started shooting trap, my mind set was, "how hard can this be, my gun is already mounted to my shoulder, no trees to shoot between, and the bird is going to flush when I say so, and no really hard angles (3 hole back then) a sure chip shot.
Really miss those days of hunting Grouse and Woodcock with my German wirehaired pointing Griffons.

 

So we can agree that the target speed is the same now as it ever was, for all intents and purposes, and the angles are marginally less challenging than they were 30 years ago (if the hole 3 was used in setting the target angles (more often than not, hole 2 was employed)). So why the cheap shot about ATA targets being narrow and soft? Compared to what? International targets? Of course they are. But compared to the ATA targets of the past, when single targets are thrown, there is not a great deal if difference.

 

We expected 52 yard targets and straightaways from station one and five. Makes me wonder how often you were cheating? If there was a marginal difference no one would have received a lifetime achievement for removing the challenge from the sport.

 

It is interesting you seem to think we agree. You said the following.

I don't agree.

I think if you read what you wrote and what I wrote, there was not much in agreement.

Now if you agreed that the trap should be set to throw a legal target on average of 50 yards we could be in agreement. That would be 50 +/- 1yd by today's rule book. It is not 51 +/- or 49 +/-.

And as soft, since the inception of the Radar gun and a mis understanding of what "not less than" means, the targets are soft. In singles using a stake it is a 50yd target. Using a radar gun it is a 48 or a 49 yard target (soft). Using the only known published data that I believe the ATA used when establishing radar gun guidelines. Again, I have asked many times for the official data the ATA used with no replies.

In today's doubles instead of a 50 yard average pair it is a 45 yard average pair (soft).

 

You could set 'em in any hole you wanted back in the old days and the best shooters either straightened out the angles or shot 'em anyway since they always knew where they were going. Please get off that target angle kick because it is meaningless. The best shooters were also the best trap readers. I know, I was there.

If you really want to go off on a tangent just ask why Doubles were shortened to 44 yds. from 48/52. That's a real fact while the rest is BS!

 

Dawg....
How many 100's on the gah before '95?

 

FWIW, they were throwing "2 hole" targets in the GAH for decades before 1995.

 

Well Family Guy, I attended about 14 Grands in Vandalia, starting in 1986, and all but one of them were shot with 49 yard, 2 hole targets. If Vandalia was indeed, the home field, in the home state of trapshooting, and it wasn't cheating to use that target setting, why was it cheating when that target setting was used elsewhere? Like I said previously, there were some who allege that everyone's scores went up (but theirs) with the 2 hole targets, so rather than work harder, they found that it was easier to quit, and then complain about how the change had hurt the sport.

 

I always had a straightaway from post 1 and 5. What squads were you on?

 

Not where I was shooting. Maybe you can alert the ATA officials and they can put an asterisk by your name.

 

Yes, Family Guy, you come from a place where the wind blew harder, the rain fell in buckets, it was a lot colder or hotter, your gun had more recoil, they threw targets faster and wider, yes sir, where men were men (and sheep were nervous). Maybe, but I doubt it.

 

FG, sorry but I really don't remember my squad numbers at Vandalia. HB has posted documents showing that they were throwing 2 hole targets at Vandalia back as far as the early 60's if not the late 50's.

 

Yes I did. I also noted several times that it was in violation of the written rules. This was affirmed by numerous shooters such as Vic Reinders, Kay Ohye and Frank Little as well as several ATA presidents, some of which ordered the GAH targets to be set in accordance with those written rules and checked the fields each morning.

The sport was not designed to produce numerous 100 and 200 straights. Those scores should be a rarity as they were in the early Grand American Handicap events.

Oh well, what's done is done, and I believe the concept that higher scores will keep shooters happy and returning to those clubs where high scores are numerous has truly won out. There will be no return to the 45° targets of the early 1900s or the 22° targets listed in the rulebooks from the 1950s to 1996.

It's a wonder they had any contestants at all with those old rules from 1899.

​

Enjoy Our History !

 

HB your post as always hits the mark.

Distance between 40 and 60 yards.
Height 6'-12'.
"A straightaway may vary 45 degrees on each side of its correct flight.

I wonder if someone was awarded a lifetime achievement award to change those rules.

 

Who cares. I've only been shooting since 1963. And you?

 

You care or you would not have tried to prove you are older than me.

 

Way too much fact ignorance here. Voice activated systems made the game far easier-that's a fact. Better guns with adjustable features made the game easier-a fact.

Trap reading by the better shooters elevated their game. One of the premier trapshooters of that era quit soon after they went to interrupters on traps. Knowing where the target was headed when you called pull made wider angle targets meaningless-that's a fact!

 

To follow dawg's logic there were no 100's on the gah cause the big shooters did not have guns that fit them and they knew where the target was going. Tell me again how old you are.

 

If you spent enough time at the 27 yd. line pre-voice systems you'd realize the biggest enemy of a great score was the pullers!

 

Nice thing about forums is you don't need to have your teeth in to type. That aside even the great Dysinger only had a 92 average on caps before the targets were changed. Same with other All Americans.

Wind is a huge enemy also. Especially with angles & long yardage. That is a big reason for the short yardage shooters dominating the caps on the gah.

 

My biggest concern was the wind, we had some good pullers at most clubs I shot. In fact the day i made 27 at the last shoot of the target year to reach the back fence within 6 months of my first shoot in April, i prayed there would be no wind. It worked! One other thing, never read a trap, just shot whatever came out. Never turned down a hard angle under the premise it was a slow pull.

 

85% of the high scores at a recent Satellite Grand were broken from the 27. When I started shooting a score in the 90's from the fence got you a pat on the back. No, I don't need dentures either!