The ATA is in worse condition it has ever been

How can we say that, we got the WRSC, the HOF, Yes they have it, Built it in a ANTI-GUN State, Built the HOF without bidding, this and the Past ATA BOD and EC, including the Present ATA, BOD and EC, just spending our money, taking away the Rights of the Life Members who would have stopped all this happening, I am right now having LOWES give me Estimates of an Identical Building to the HOF. That Bid should be ready next week with a complete list of materials all available in the State Of Illinois, I can DAMN well tell you it is more than a $Million Dollars Cheaper, just as the bids that were given to me several months ago by MORTON POLE BUILDING builders here in Ohio
using Ohio Carpenters, and paying their Motel bills, And Travel expenses to stay in Illinois while building it.

All things pertaining to the WRSC In Illinois was a waste of money, taking the powers of the Life Members by using the actions of the BOD to take those powers W/O giving us notice of what they were doing, until AFTER THE FACT, then Re-Incorporating the ATA in Illinois.

The Formation of the 2012 PLL, llc by the ATA President Rob Taylor in Kansas, buying the ATA Offices in Sparta Illinois, then Rob Taylor dissolving that Corp as he was the Incorporator, in what I believe was a cover-up.

Monies spent thru non bidding on the Pat Traps was just another thing. The Management of the ATA has been running RAMPANT for at least 20 years in my opinion, what say you?

Purchase and Leases of Vendor Buildings in an area with out shoots being held, IDNR Voiding the Lease, The IDNR not paying the Electric Bills, The State Of Illinois not Balancing a budget, a State that has the worst Credit Worthiness in the United States.

Your/OUR ATA put us in this position over 11 years ago, by ATA President Tom Acklin and his BOD and EC.

There is a few of us on this site that have uncovered so much in such a short time it is almost un-believeable. You that bash this site are the ones that wear ROSE COLORED GLASSES and believe the ATA Management now in control. With guys like Flagrato, Leonidas that want to try and crucify us for getting out the TRUTH.

Giving out 2 yard reductions not just once but twice, making angles easier, giving everybody a Trophy

Gary Bryant............................Dr.longshot

 

Illinois can use the Hall of Fame building for the Obamma Library.With a little bit of remodeling like putting in about 200 urinals represidenting the piss poor job he has done..

 

Did you obtain a list of spec's for the building from the ATA.. . I fail to see how you can get an accurate estimate without having the spec's for how it was built. What equipment .. A/C, Heat, Power, Lighting, Security. . etc etc

(this question is not to say I disagree with your dismay .. I was the one who posted pictures on FB and ask WTF and where was the $2.2 million spent. Having been there and walked around it.. I can't see the justification. But I was not allowed inside.. so I have no idea what was done there. At the time of the Grand, I was told nothing was yet in the building as far as displays or cases to house the history items.)

 

I talked to the building Supt and am very familiar with the construction Superintendant, and the Construction Company I also got information from Sparta Building Dept. Building Plans, And posted those in previous threads. This is nothing more than a Pole Building Horse Barn, like those constructed all over Ohio, Indiana, Illinois , Building plans are all over Like 84 lumber, Lowes, Holmes Lumber, Morton Pole Buildings, it is 72x120= 8640 Sq ft. The concrete floor I believe is not Insulated, as it should be for an inhabitated Building with HVAC. This building can absolutely be built for $750,000.00 or less. will post costs when I get them back this week, I already posted costs from Morton Pole Barns whom have built this building here in Ohio for Horse training arenas. only difference is the interior having Drywall Construction w/5/8ths inch Drywall, primed and painted, sidewalls have r-30 insulation as well as roof and upper sidewalls, I am a n Ohio Licensed Building Inspector and a Licensed Home Builder as I have built 4 homes, Company name Bryant Homes, and Bryant Service Inc. HVAC/Commercial Refrigeration Contractor retired 2002 after having Open Heart Surgery.I retired in 2002, I have maintained my State Building Inspector License. State Mechanical License. I am also NIASE Licensed and a GM Master Mechanic, In all fields, engine, Auto Trans, Alignment, Differential, Electrical, Carbueration, Fuel Injection, Turbo Chargers, Brakes and Hydraulics and I still have my Aluminum Plaque as proof. base construction of the HOF is 6x6 wall posts, Steel exterior walls, and Steel Roof with applicable Snow Loads, and HVAC heat loads/cooling loads to -10 degrees which is below State Season Standards which is "0" degrees construction Std for Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois.And summer Cooling Degrees of 100 Degrees for same states, with Design Temp of 95 Degrees as state std.Design Cooling Specs is 15 tons Cooling, which is over sized for people Load.
heating un it design is 500,000 btu

GB...................................DLS

 

I think I'm with FlaLagarto on this one.

Dr., if you are so familiar with the construction superintendent and the construction company, is that where the supposed kickbacks went, or do they know where these kickbacks of your's went? I'm not sure what you think the overages are, but guess you think it's at least a million. That's a pretty big number. I would think the superintendent, or someone involved, would be able to quickly look at the costs and be able to point out where something seems strange. Did they give you any indication they knew of anything?

Regardless of Doc's issue, IMO it's way too much to spend on a HOF for the sport, period.

Out of all the items that have been thrown out there about the Sparta situation, to me, the 2012 PULL LLC deal is really the one that smells the worst. It could very well be on the up-and-up, but it looks to me like ATA did not properly disclose the related-party transactions. I could certainly be wrong about that, but I've seen nothing about it at all.

 

Out of all the items that have been thrown out there about the Sparta situation, to me, the 2012 PULL LLC deal is really the one that smells the worst. It could very well be on the up-and-up, but it looks to me like ATA did not properly disclose the related-party transactions. I could certainly be wrong about that, but I've seen nothing about it at all.

AUGUST 16, 2012 BOD MEETING

The property at 1105 East Broadway, Sparta, Illinois. He noted that the Real Property Advisory

419 Committee has approved this purchase, and the directors were sent written notice of the

420 decision of the Real Property Advisory Committee prior to the Annual Meeting. Subsequent to

421 further review and discussion, and upon Motion of Missouri Director Randall Crawford with

422 second of Idaho Director Bruce Baumgartner, with no further response or comment, it was

423 unanimously: 15

424 RESOLVED that the ATA exercise the option it has on the property at 1105 East 425 Broadway, Sparta, Illinois, pursuant to the terms of the lease agreement dated March 1, 2012,

426 with PULL, LLC, and the ATA.

The next topic covered by Executive Director Gipson was his recommendation to

271 exercise the option to purchase the property and buildings at 1105 E. Broadway for $100,000

272 plus rent due under the lease. The office building on the property consists of 5,280 square feet

273 and is being used as ATA Headquarters. A maintenance building is also on the property and

274 consists of 3,136 square feet. After looking at several locations, Executive Director Gipson

275 stated that it this location was by far the most appropriate for the needs of the ATA.

Did anyone notice that the 2012 was missing in the minutes ???

That was my first problem with the Office purchase... One could only assume this was a "Typo".

I am Not suggesting any wrong doing.

This just made me wonder how the EC could approve these minutes without the proper information on the selling LLC.

Did ANY of the EC actually read the contract and subsequent minutes pertaining to the purchase ?

It lead to a lot of extra digging to find out the correct seller.

As members, I thought we should be allowed to know who this PULL, LLC actually was.

And the ATA wonders why we continue to ask questions ~~~

 

Brad's Friend,

I'm not concerned about what to me seems like a simple typo in the minutes, I wouldn't make a big deal out of that. But, there are other places a related party transaction needs to be disclosed, and I haven't seen that. There is a conflict of interest policy in place, so everyone voting on the purchase would have had to of been informed of any directors, officers etc. that owned an interest in the property, or an interest in an entity owning the property being purchased. I have to assume the persons voting for or signing off on the purchase were aware of the relationship, and the price does not seem unreasonable to me (although I make no claim to be a real estate valuation pro); so as I said, I would assume there is no underhandedness going on. That said, the lack of proper disclosure clouds even a legitimate transaction.

 

In my dark and dingy past I have had business dealings with the State of Illinois as well as several towns and city's as an agent for my Fathers floor covering business as well as my own Commercial Carpet Cleaning business, beside being a fire fighter/paramedic and all around do anything (legal) for money type of guy ... The first question the buyer usually asks is "how much is the over ride.?" when you present the prices, which is a nice way and non threatening term for "Kick backs" ... The State, city's and town's usually use man hours x (XXX number of dollars), material, then over ride to calculate any jobs in their region , that being for city collages, Postal stations and sub stations, Court Houses, Police Stations, Fire Stations (any and all municipal buildings) etc ... We used to itemize the job by man hours, material, over ride, and percentage for profit for easy figuring, but you had to make it look good and many times ask for a few days to figure it out and get back to them on it ... It was easy to figure, if you looked at the job and it didn't look like it was enough money to do it, just double it or more until it looks right plus over ride of course ... The States politicians usually had a family member in most of the business's that got the majority of the jobs posted so they could share and get a piece of the pie ... My best guess would be that the HOF building cost would come to 50% or slightly less than its advertised price based on dealings that I had in the past on much smaller projects for many Citys, Town's and the State of Illinois itself ... I would call it a guess ta mate at best ... Been there, Done that .... WPT ... (YAC) ....

 

Bat.... The ATA doesn't wonder why we continue to ask questions, they just don't care if we ask questions. They have not, to date, been held accountable for anything because, regardless of the questions, they are going to do it the way they want. It really doesn't matter any more what the membership wants or needs, it's what THEY want, and what they want is what's best for them..... I may be wrong here, but, that's they way it appears to me, and many others I'm sure......

 

Perhaps you should ask these people where or from whom the building materials were purchased ?? Maybe that will shed some light on the cost...

 

Just seems it would be pretty easy to spot $1,000,000 or more overage on this project?

 

Depends on who is looking for the overages doesn't it?

 

Gary is certainly looking. Sounds like he is talking to people that should know if something was strange.

 

Should be able to do a price per sq. foot, in a RSMeans book and get pretty close

 

Do you want to pay for the numerous RSMeans books to get a complete price, Let's start at $800.00 or the Complete Computer Module package.

Why don't you give us your complete estimated costs for the HOF Building for Commercial Application. including number of allowed Inhabitants


GB...............................DLS

 

I thought you said "I talked to the building Supt and am very familiar with the construction Superintendent, and the Construction Company" they would have one!

 

Bat, An audit would have to be done on the whole deal. Each contractor would then have to be audited to see where the money went. They would all have to be vetted to make sure they were not a shame company. Each contract should be verified. It is not that hard to do. Roger C.

 

Roger, what I'm saying is that since Dr L thinks this thing is overpriced by from 100 to 300 percent(depending on which post you read) , I'd think any professional familiar with the project could spot issues. Sure, you can spend a ton of money on audits, but unless someone has the funds and authority to require one, nothing happens

 

You can go to the ATA website and look at the HOF update, the figures are there. Once a contract is signed, and it's not a cost plus job, there is no need for an audit of the construction companies, you pay what was agreed upon, plus changes and extras.

 

Its this negativity that kills shoots period...or at least this site.

 

The ATA is losing shooters (members) faster then they could ever hope to replace them , this is because people are losing respect for the Association overall due to operational procedures and self serving actions by the EC, ED, and some of the BOD ... The membership falls off as does the attendance and sooner or later "POOF" and its gone ... Rose colored glasses and kool aid all around , but those can't save it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

This site has not caused the problems, it only brings them into view ...

 

Bat: There was only one contractor on the HOF project

GB.............................DLS

 

Who contacted Mr. Hampton to be project manager for WRSC? Fom the state of Illinois, to IDNR?
GB...............................DLS

 

WPT,

That's hardly the reason why ATA membership is down. Maybe it accounts for a few, but not even a drop in the bucket.

He's a good project for you, without jading at a registered shoot, go up to a 40 y/o and ask him where his friends are shooting, do the same to a 30 y/o, if you can find either.

 

Just curious, has anyone been there to see this so called....Horse Building?
Maybe we should organize a Bus Tour so we could look at this thing.
Il bet that would shake things up. (if you could get in)

2 mil. sounds like a lot of money to me.


Regards....Gerald

 

Why not get a few buses and head out around the beginning of August, then everyone can actually go in.

 

I do not enter gun hate states.

The place represents the corruption in our org and the state of Illinois.

 

OK Gary, sounds the company built a 2.5 million bldg., you say should have cost somewhere south of $750,000 or so. It would seem to me the guys you are talking to would know where well over a million dollars was wasted, wouldn't they?

I don't know if there was a rip-off here or not, but the price is simply too much for the HOF building, to me at least. Not to mention the current issues clouding the site.

 

The HOF construction Company was Ppoettker Construction Co., the Construction Supt was ***** ********* located in Breeze Illinois, Building Dept is Loacated in Sparta Illinois,Construction Permit was for a building w/dimensions 72' x120'=8640 sqf.

Those pictures portrayed by the ATA are not the Design Specs given to Sparta Building Dept for currently built HOF building.

We all have heard of BAIT & SWITCH could this of happened, submit a design get money approved, then submit different Building Plans to building Dept.

If ATA hired an Architect to design a building, paid him for the design, Had him Sign Off on the design, got bids on materials & labor for $2.1 Million.

Then got a set of Off The Rack Horse Barn Building Plans that required Far Less Expensive Materials & Labor, you decide what happened

Gary Bryant...............................Dr.longshot

 

The architect was the same guy that designed the WSRC. The fees associated with him is $119k, and design fees of $80,350. The actual cost of the building is $1.5M.

 

Says who? Cost to who?

 

If this is true?

 

The HOF and it's auditor.

 

Hear that everyone.....the HOF has it's own auditor. Sheeesh. Glad that is cleared up. No worries now.

Guessing the ATA has it's own auditor.

This coming from the org that permitted Bradford to vote himself into the Hall of Fame.

 

Gary, it looks like the price for building the building was $1.5 mil. What do your contacts say about that? Was it a fair price, or did they rip HOF off?

 

They don't have their own auditor, the books are audited by a CPA firm, every year.

 

Duff, How can you be so dense? ENRON had CPA's going over their books every day and they still cooked them. I'm sure some one in Chicago knows how to do it also. Wake up, enough has been uncovered to show these people do not deserve your loyality. Roger C.

 

Well, I'm sure your CPA is the only one in the country that can be trusted.

 

How much was alocotted for the HOF bldg., not the whole WRSC?

Who was the Architec for the HOF building

GB.....................................DLS

 

Those numbers were just for the HOF. I believe the architect is Randy Mitchell

 

The ATA has made made money as all the while the State of Illinois has added to its deficit over the past 11 years ... If you look back at the records by the ATA, at the time of getting involved with the State of Illinois and the WSRC they had approx 4 million dollars banked or invested ... The ATA has added a considerable amount of cash on hand or invested over the past 11 years , to date it claims 13 Million plus ... The State of Illinois had obviously taken all of the loses into consideration and has made the choice to separate itself from any involvement with the ATA and or WSRC into the future ... The ATA's cash cow has dried up so now they have to assume all costs and liabilities if they are going to host the grand at the WSRC , which has yet to be determined for sure... It does not take a CPA to figure this out, look at past records and do some simple math to arrive at the answers (no, new math) ... The claims of 1.5 or 2.1 million dollars to build the HOF is obviously in question and can be verified if records reflect same on the States web site , or the contractors records if the State paid for it, it will be part of public record ... The amounts paid by the ATA should also show in the records from the ATA and or HOF , those should be able to be verified unless hidden in the financial reports ... (Nothing to hide, Hide Nothing) ...

Based on all that has transpired over the years many things that Gary (DLS) has mentioned could (might) be possible and should be able to be verified by those involved ... Illinois is known for corruption in its politics and state projects, why would this not apply ..? If a person (Association) gets accused of wrong doing, why would they not show proof to show otherwise and drop it ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

How long are the Egyptian Electric Shareholders going to put up with non payment of the $230,000+ electric bills due by State Of Illinois, how is Egyptian going to explain this to their shareholders at next meeting, it is going to cvause them an increase in their bills.

GB.............................DLS

 

"The HOF construction Company was Ppoettker Construction Co., the Construction Supt was ***** ********* located in Breeze Illinois, Building Dept is Loacated in Sparta Illinois,Construction Permit was for a building w/dimensions 72' x120'=8640 sqf."

Would be interesting to see who the principles are in Ppoettker Construction Co. Just sayin' ya know?

 

WPT,

You already know full well, both the ATA and HOF list all income/expense because of their 501 c status, you also know those records are public information.

Gary,

The power company knows they will be paid eventually, they aren't concerned.

Funny story, where I live the was a county agency that was supposed to be promoting economic growth, and was headed by the local utility company's former CEO, they ran up a bill of $2.5mm, before the county merged them with another agency and paid the bill.

 

Duff,
"PLEASE" point out to me where I said the records were not available or part of public record ..? I am not Ann Landers, (Dear Abby) but I would suggest you read what I write not what you want to read or read into anything I say ... I do think you are right about the State having an exception on the payment for the electric bill as a rule of law (or some ridiculous thing) eventually so as not to interfere with normal operations ( as if they have anything going on out there any way) so I concede that one to you (touche) ... We Love you Man , no really ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

No, we don't...

 

This is for bat and duff .... an example of the way the "ATA" and "THOF" does their "accounting".

"Three people check into a hotel room. The clerk says the bill is $30, so each guest pays $10. Later the clerk realizes the bill should only be $25. To rectify this, he gives the bellhop $5 to return to the guests. On the way to the room, the bellhop realizes that he cannot divide the money equally. As the guests didn't know the total of the revised bill, the bellhop decides to just give each guest $1 and keep $2 as a tip for himself. Each guest got $1 back: so now each guest only paid $9; bringing the total paid to $27. The bellhop has $2. And $27 + $2 = $29 so, if the guests originally handed over $30, what happened to the remaining $1?"

 

I just talked to my Sparta Confidential informant on the WRSC and HOF buildings. In the very beginning architect was informed the roads were being Asphalted w/o any Base, put down on non/compacted dirt.

The HOF Bldg is a Wood and Frame building, w/preconstructed Side/walls, Roof Trusses 6" in thick Tectum Roof Panels w/ 2 layers of Plywood and then Asphalt Shingles. Side walls are 1/2 Hardi-Board and 1/2 Steel, upper and lower.

Architect is*****-****** Inc HOF Ground Breaking was done after the 2014 Grand Week.

Architect was advised there is a severe power shortage in the Complete WRSC Grounds/ and Camp Sites. he shrugged his shoulders.

All roads were in bad shape in the very beginning, now 11 years later the non/repaired roads may not hold up to the Shooters Motor Homes Campers and Vendors vehicles.

If these repairs are left to the ATA it is at hundreds of $1.000 of Dollars in road repairs alone + Electrical up-grades which is in the hundreds of $thousands of dollars.

This WRSC is a money pit that cannot be filled, all at the stupidity of the We told you so/ BOD and EC, in an anti-gun state.

HOF interior walls are Hardi-Board. HOF interior Furnishings are being delivered as I write this.

*** ******** was released by IDNR when these Items were Brought to the Attention of the IDNR and costs to correct the problems.

This is just a portion of what I learned today, I will not go into any further details, as they are Confidential, but absolutely accurate.

My confidential informant could not believe the estimated cost of THAT HOF Building

Gary Bryant..................................Dr.longshot

 

Doc .... people can "live in the past" and NEVER change it ... or, they can spend time trying to improve the future.

If it takes the IRS and/or the IL-AG to knock some off their high-horse, so be it. But, wasting your time getting bids on something you can not change will only anger you, because the money is gone and the building is what it is. And past deals, are past deals.

More threads for the same people to read will not change any positions. Your time would be better spent forwarding what you have to the IRS and/or the IL-AG on a daily basis, if that is what it takes.

 

The HOF Building was built with UNION WORKERS AT UNION WAGES, just FYI

GB...................................DLS

 

HOF Building was a MODULAR building as explained to me, all Trusses and Walls were pre-built and delivered on Semi Trailers as explained to me today FYI

GB............................DLS

 

USER1: If things are not looked after nothing changes, Hindsight is good for forsight in the future and possible reimbursements, if you know what I mean, I have nothing but time on my hands as I am snowed in today, and I am retired for almost 15 years now. Hell we Life Members got our rights stolen by the ATA management by changing the By-laws w/o notifying us.

Gary Bryant Life Member...............................Dr.longshot

 

User1: I hope it angers the present membership, the way our SHIP IS BEING RUN, we want to keep it off the ROCKS do we not?

GB...................................DLS

 

Duh, It's a closed shop State. What else did you expect?

 

Well, the auditor looks at it and says, "the hotel got $25, you were refunded $3 and the bellhop helped himself to $2. Then says your math is wrong, this is why I certify your expense reports.

 

Those auditors / accountants booted from their positions in the ATA have to find some of the recent posts humorous.

For those that looked under the wrong rocks.......

Drink a glass of Kool Aid in the name of ATA integrity.

 

Were you shooting registered targets in 1955?