Let the damn trapshooters decide.

Reading the forum for a year now it is obvious the trap shooters are not too fond of Sparta. Attendance just plain sucks. So it was a failure. So what! Big deal! No history lesson needed.

Problem----We cant move on because some over cashed individual has too much money.

End result. We end up with a HOF building we cant leave behind. Normal supply and demand wont be able to dictate a move to a better location. Flag shoot will remain in a state that is anti gun. The scourge of our sport will be happy and the sport will continue to spiral.

Don't give me the speech. "he means well" crap.

No thanks are coming from me. Flame away....I care less everyday.

 

The ATA made a mistake ten years ago. Unfortunately, when a well run organization makes a mistake they look at the options and move on. Our current pack of idiots still see the future in a facility that's had dwindling attendance over the years. Sparta is on its last legs. In a couple more years it will be deserted and gone as maybe will the ATA. If the ATA really cared about the future they would walk away and find cheaper, simpler means to survive. Running to an individual who seems to hell bent on wasting money for whatever reason does neither party any good. One thought for the idiots that think the ATA should buy Sparta with the help of their financial backer, shoot for the Brooklyn Bridge also, make it a package deal. While you're all thinking you might want to drive by that wonderful airport just down the road that was going to be such a deal along with the WSC. It's over but the idiots will waste everything before they give up.

 

It gets compounded more and more as they line up for their seat, to get in line for the presidents gun ... This all started over 15 years ago and Thanks to all of the Delegates with no stones it just keeps on getting better *** (WORSE ***) as time goes on ... The ATA has become a cash cow for the EC and no doubt for the ED (136,000 per year plus) to stand up and look like a babbling Idiot every time he opens his mouth talking about all of the great to fantastic things that are going to happen, that have not happened or come close to happening once in the past 11 years in Sparta and before that while still in Vandalia ... They talk millions of dollars being brought into the region and or local area , obviously they have no idea what 10/ 20. or more millions of dollars really amounts to ... Lynn (Talking Head ) Gipson sold his soul for his wages, and stares off blankly into space as the rest of the world goes round and round ... Gipson is not a leader but is when compared to the EC, and most of the BOD he comes out on top of the heap as he spreads the word for the Association ... The ATA is doomed, just a matter of time ... I hope the Martins start an organization, they will have people lined up to join and they won't have to rip off and milk the members ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

If you could see the ATA Financial report you will see each BOB, EC and CHC Members re-imbursements for the Grand Week, The Sattelite Grands, Special meetings, they are actually making money attending them, shooting them and all ON OUR DIME, this is absolutely ridiculous, when almost all can be done in WEBINAIRS, Computer conferences.

No one pays for our shooting, shells, entries, & travel expenses, why In the World should we pay theirs?

Why can't we open those documents on this site, I opened them and have them saved, but do not have the Computer knowledge to post them, I opened them with ADOBE READER, I have them stored in my ADOBE READER and was just looking at them, EXPENSES for GRAND alone by my figures, they were compensated a total of $93,738 and that is just for Pres, EC & CHC did not include the BOD.

They are living on a CASH COW, our memberships MONEY. Why should they care, they are in line for their turn at the expensive TRAPGUN and FREE SHOOTING & TRAVEL EXPENSES UNTIL THEY GET THEIRS.

Gary Bryant........................Dr.longshot

 

Here is an idea .... how about round 2 ??????????

My opinion has zero value to the "ATA" .... the Illinois Attorney General and the IRS have an opinion to wake some up. A friendly reminder to them may be of more value, and time better spent, than preaching to the Amen Choir.

 

You know we all should be happy that the ATA is trying to work things out with the state of Illinois so that the guys that do go out for the grand have a good time.
The ATA could do to there member like a long range rifle club that I have been a member of for 30 years..... if you like to know what they did well they waited till everyone paid there membership due and in then they closed there doors...... did say why they closed .... goodbye or boo ! The members took it up the ass ! and yes they had members all over the country just like the ATA has.
I can tell you this the membership dues was a lot more than what the ATA is asking for each year.
If you don't like what the ATA doing then quit or get over it ........ its all about having fun and getting together with old friends !

 

Rick, Please do not ever apply for dear Abby's job. You advise sucks. I for one am not against the ATA. I am against some of the self server that have wormed into our sport. They are to our sport what a cancer is to a human body. If not removed it will destroy the host.If their actions are not made evident then they will continue to thrive. Is that what you want? Have you read the history of the office building that was purchased by the ATA in Sparta? If not you should. That is only one item of a few that have come to light. Roger C.

 

You give this advice "If you don't like what the ATA doing then quit or get over it" after this "The members took it up the ass !" in the same post ?????

I may "quit or get over it" .... but not with a free pass for "The members took it up the ass !"

It is their turn to take it "up the ass !" .... after years of giving it "up the ass !"

Round 2 now .... and round 3-4-5-6, until ....

Heck, you "should be happy" you had "been a member of for 30 years" before you "took it up the ass !" .... shouldn't you ???????

 

Sorry about the "a??" commit

 

I would like you to show us where you got "factual" evidence to back up this BS ?? I know several members personally... yes, they receive "partial" reimbursement... but there is not a single one of them "making" money attending any of the meeting/shoots.

You have been known to make some logical and informative post.. so why do you insist on discrediting your credibility by making up outrageous BS like this and posting it on a public forum ???

 

Flagrato: Why are you so afraid to make the effort to get a Copy of the ATA financial report for yourself, You will do anything to pounce on me but afraid to read and do something for your self, and find out first hand what our Organization BOD, EC and CHC are doing, and the PLL 2015 we all know you wear blinders

Jerry I have been shooting ATA targets a hell of a lot longer than you..You Are Friends With The Good Ole Boys and a Spokesman for the Dark Side.

Gary Bryant...........................Dr.longshot

 

Rick : The ATA is not trying to work things out, everything they the EC< BOD do is behind the memberships back, nothing is done letting the membership know, just like the Ridiculous $2.1 Million THOF, that is so over priced and it stole the membership's money, that Style of Horse Barn is built all over the State of Ohio for less than $500,000 w/a/c, we shooters are not stupid, and most are not mis-led.

Just like Flagrato: climbing on me instead of getting an ATA Financial Report and finding out for himself, he tries to make himself look good trying to start an argument with me, trying to make me and others look bad, trying to make a name for himself, at the expense of others.

Rick:: if the ATA was Intelligent they would of had a GOOD LAWYER read all documents and have had price Comparasions/BIDS on the HOF Bldg, it seems to me some underhanded things are going on at the Membership Expense/splitting up the OVERAGES, just like the 2012PLL Corp. that was formed with the ATA President
Rob Taylor as Incorporator, and selling the property to THE ATA for the ATA HOME OFFICES at a profit to himself and others.

Rick and Flagrato: The ATA should be an OPEN BOOK, and the likes of both of you should be looking at things yourself, instead of RIDICULING OTHERS, that find things out and post for others KNOWLEDGE.

FLAGRATO: Tried to work himself in on the Grudge Match at the CC in 2012.

WE need a Change in the Leadership of the ATA, to bring us out of this FIASCO they developed. Our ATA Delegate Roger McNamer is not seen or heard, I felt he was going to be a positive change, BOY was I mistaken. Have any of you noticed most delegates are teachers? It is because most have the summers off. Two I know of are from Ohio Dean Townsend CHC Chairmen for Years, and Recently Elected Roger McNamer, OHIO ATA DELEGATE. Maybe we should ask where they are Employed

Gary Bryant..............................Dr.longshot

 

Gary,

The Ohio ATA members can vote for whomever they want. If that guy won, what does that say to you?

 

Why would it say something to me? There are good delegatesand bad delegates, what did it say to you?

GB.....................DLS

 

The ATA is loaded w/bad delegates, you know that

GB................................DLS

 

They present themselves as having good character until they get elected and become a Good Ole Boy same old sh*t

GB..........................DLS

 

vote him back out

 

I have no fear of you or anything you post.. .I've proved you wrong so many times I can't count them all.. between the BS you make up and the BS you miss read ... it's a daily source of entertainment for the majority

 

YES... you have... 22 yrs longer to be exact. But yet, you claim to support the ATA .. but you've only registered about half of the target count that I have. When I've challenged you to a shoot off based on ATA targets in all 3 events you run and hide.. and never post on the threads that I have challenged you on... so I think it's safe to "assume" you are the one who's scared.

Every challenge had been based to raise money to benefit the Ohio kids shooting or a worthy cause...

Even when I offered a $500 donation to the cause to shoot with you and Big Don.. you refused... guess you knew then you would never win ..

 

What, exactly, does him having a shoot off with you have to do with the mismanagement of the ATA?

I love shooting trap. I 've loved the shooting sports since I was very young. I'm NEVER joining the ATA.

One only need look into the management practices of the ATA on a cusory level to see it's rotton. Please go to YouTube and look at Paul Shaw's explanation to his Canadian members about why he was removed from an oversight committee by Mr. Gipson's Koolaid drinkers. If the ATA is completely above board what in the hell do they have to hide? Before you go off with making counter accusations address the obvious questions,... go ahead, address them.

Longshot didn't produce the video.

Do you think Lynn Gipson should accept a $15k-$20k shotgun when the organization is having financial issues? (Especially knowing he owns a firearms business and he could get a Silver Seitz shotgun at cost?)
Again, PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION before flinging more sh*t at Longshot.

The ATA is run in a chronistic mannor.

 

Why would Lynn Gipson be getting a gun from the ATA?

 

Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing ... Mr. Shaw is a man of Honor and Integrity, he didn't fit in with the others ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

There it is right on time. The quote that best represents all the stooges from the worn out place. The I shoot more registered so I know more crap. Atta boy FlaLagrato. You represent the stooges well. Previously we thought there was only 4. Wearing that stupid comment on your sleeve puts the 4 stooges at 5.

Doc if you are going to use the same saying you are no better.

I can put that shoot together....consider the gloves on the ice!

 

Hey FlaLagarto, where did you go,.....You were so confident talking squat, saying Longshot has been proven wrong so many times when he dares to draw attention to the way ATA management has brought the organization to it's knees by refusing to change with the times,.....keeping the old boy's network, (chronies) in power scratching eachother's backs,....business as usual.

The silence is deafening.

 

Please excuse my absence.. unlike some here I have a real life and sitting here listening to a few beat a dead horse isn't one of my top priorities.

 

Once again.. The proclaimed DR avoids a direct question... "Show me where an ATA president got a $20k shot gun"

stooges... yep... ranting I've shot longer then you somehow gives you more knowledge and skill... yea, right. Keyboard hero... nothing more nothing less.

 

I've sat in the BOD meeting the last 7 years... I don't believe I've seen the self proclaimed DR at any of them... if he's truly interested in knowledge one would think he would be there to talk to the delegates (before, after or during the break) and hear from himself what is said and done in the meeting. If he has a valid point to bring before the BOD he can request permission to speak at the meeting... why hasn't he been doing this ??

 

Dr., you said "If you could see the ATA Financial report you will see each BOB, EC and CHC Members re-imbursements for the Grand Week, The Sattelite Grands, Special meetings, they are actually making money attending them, shooting them and all ON OUR DIME, this is absolutely ridiculous, when almost all can be done in WEBINAIRS, Computer conferences"

OK, I see where they get reimbursed for certain expenses. I don't see anything about how they make money attending the shoots though? Generally, it's tough to "make money" under a reimbursement plan. How do they do this? I just don't think the financial statements are something you can use to ascertain they are "making money" attending the shoots.

I don't recall Paul Shaw saying there were any problems he found with the actual Accountable Plan reimbursements themselves, it was the lack of organizational guidance and then the unfortunate treatment (being nice here) he received after calling them on the organizational matters. I admit, it's been a while since I looked at that fiasco though, maybe I don't recall it fully?

 

FN Guy,

The reason I asked about your post is that Gipson would not normally be receiving a gun and wondered if something new was going on. As I seem to find more often around here, someone then replied to me in a condescending post, but they had their facts all wrong and that post has mysteriously disappeared.

I get your point about the president's gun, I was just wondering why Gipson would get one?

 

At the end of the day there are opinions, and there is the law.

The current "ATA" leadership is operating outside of both. My opinion of what they should get as "travel expense" is one thing, but the law makes it very clear what it is for a 501(c)(3). They violate their own rules, State Law, and Federal Law. The "rule book" violations I have to accept, the State and Federal violations need the attention of the IRS and/or the IL-AG.

If it takes the IRS and/or the IL-AG to knock some off their high-horse, so be it. Sooner or later Justice will be the bitter-pill they need, and deserve.

FWIW ... "making money on travel expense" is not the "legal" problem ... paying yourself "travel expense" to go play, and at a much higher level than allowed by "law", is going to cause some to face the "law".

 

User,

Do we know what they get reimbursed for? I don't recall if the terms of the accountable plan are floating around or not? Adherence to that Accountable Plan and its documentation requirements would be the main interest of the IRS on the matter.

 

194 Accountable Plan Compliance Committee Report
195
196 The Accountable Plan Compliance Committee consisting of Phil Wright, Rob Lamont, Richard
197 Luckett, and James Faber was provided expense reimbursement information periodically
198 throughout the year by Mike Howell, ATA Controller. It was the intention of the committee to
199 collectively meet during Grand week but individual schedules could not be reconciled to make
200 such a meeting possible. In lieu of a collective meeting two members of the committee
201 reviewed all expense reports for Executive Committee and Central Handicap Committee
202 members. The expense report packages were found in good order including receipts and after
203 action reports. We did note that in a few instances the after action reports were exceptionally
204 brief and need to be enhanced in future submissions. Where submitted expenses were in
205 excess of allowable maximums, reimbursements were limited to the amounts allowed by the
206 Accountable Plan.
207 No changes have been made to the Accountable Plan during the current year.
208 The committee was not requested to perform any additional reviews by the Executive
209 Committee or the Board of Directors.

 

Bat ... let me save you and I a bunch of time.

If there are not enough interested members to ask the IRS and or IL-AG to get involved, the only hope in my opinion, in hopes of bringing a "new day" to the sport ... I have no interest cyber-litigation.

Throwing pebbles from cyber-land is a minor nuisance, to be easily ignored. It is time to derail the runaway train, or move on. Either way, I will shoot "Trap" ... be it 1, 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 200, or any other number of targets thrown from a "Trap-house".

 

Bat ... why don't you, and others, join to put a rest to the "ATA" hate campaign.

Send a request to: http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp ... for an investigation.

And/or mail one of these: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf

And/or mail this, if it fits: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf

Here ... http://www.americantrapshooter.com/...-will-replace-sparta-re-vote.1765/#post-18472 ... on posts 16, 25, 35, 42, 44, 46, 50, 58, 63, and 66, you seem to show doubt about any guilt the "ATA" may have in all this bashing. Request the audits and prove yourself correct.

 

Well, I am not really sure I have any reasonable belief that a violation of tax law occurred, so I would not file a complaint with the IRS or a state taxing authority saying I did based on postings made by a few people on an internet site that have not impressed me as having much in the way of an understanding of the applicable laws or corporate documents.

Nothing wrong with hating the ATA for those so inclined, and they certainly can cause a lot of headaches and hassle. I just don't feel filing an official complaint form with the government is the appropriate action to be taken just to "put a rest to the ATA hate campaign". Those aren't toys.

 

Gary, wrong again. You just do not understand what you are looking at. Please look them over again, read all the accompanying notes and you will find your error.

 

They are not "toys" ... it is very serious. "reasonable belief that a violation of tax law occurred" goes both ways.

I would think everyone from both positions would want a resolution. The best way for that resolution to happen is let those who enforce the "laws" put it to rest. Opinions will not change until this happens, and until it happens Trapshooting is going to suffer.

People can "file a complaint" in support of the "ATA" ... if they feel there is nothing to hide. The "haters" have to let it go if the "ATA" goes without harm.

 

Makes no sense to file a complaint when you don't have one. Maybe here that makes sense, but not in the real world. Hey, Gary has already filed the complaints, I'm confident he has provided enough paperwork and telephone calls to keep the authorities busy for some time.

When one is concerned about the appropriateness of a transaction, and a tax law, they consult with a tax attorney and or/ cpa firm.

 

That may be the way they do it in New York, but the rest of the World will let those who enforce the laws do their job.

 

That's nonsensical, who was talking about interfering with the tax authorities?

 

You suggest if someone "is concerned about the appropriateness of a transaction" ... "they consult with a tax attorney and or/ [sic] cpa firm."

I suggest if someone "is concerned about the appropriateness of a transaction" they send an email to ... http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp ... and ask them to look into it.

And/or mail one of these: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf

And/or mail this, if it fits: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf

 

User 1,

I believe that has been done by several to many people already to no avail of of yet ... I'm guessing the Wheels of Justice do turn very slowly if at all for sure based on the lack of response to so many ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT,

Maybe the authorities looked into the complaints and found them untrue?

 

"turn very slowly" .... yes. But it will only "die" if people quit trying.

One of two things, or both, may happen if people keep asking .... they will ask people to stop asking, or look into it.

The "squeaky wheel" works, if it squeaks long enough and loud enough.

 

The "squeaky wheel" works sometimes but it also get replaced other times.

 

Why would the IRS and/or the IL-AG want to "replace" a "squeaky wheel" ????????

 

Maybe the ATA should file with IRS for a determination they are the target of a harassment campaign? Probably not worth the effort but it is available depending on what they're receiving.

 

If you have nothing to hide, Hide Nothing ... Nuff said ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Just because some malcontents accuse someone of something doesn't mean they are hiding anything!

 

There is a difference between being transparent and using IRS forms for a purpose they were not intended. When you have a question about the proper treatment of a transaction on your tax return, you consult with an attorney or CPA to discuss the law, regs. etc. that are applicable and the standards you must meet to take the position. You might file for a private letter ruling from the IRS on a big issue to see how they look at it, but that ain't cheap. No professional would ever advise a client to use a complaint form improperly and file it against itself, just to "hide nothing". That' s not what the form is for.

Listen, we know the Doc has filed the forms, and probably many others at the urging of some on here. IRS will acknowledge receipt of the form to the filer, but they generally will not ever contact you again about it, and will not advise you of anything further. Depending on the facts, they will either toss it, or move it up the chain, and possibly decide to move forward with an investigation.

 

It would be fantastic if "the ATA should file with IRS for a determination they are the target of a harassment campaign".

I would urge them to do so. Then the IRS would be forced to "determine" the merit of the "harassment".

GREAT advice .... I hope the "ATA" takes it.

 

Do you suppose when the IRS finds nothing wrong with the ATA filings that they will check into the returns of those who filed complaints?

Wouldn't that be poetic justice!

 

Leonidas....they dont do that. The ATA may have more problems with the AG in Illinois dont you think?

 

They don't do that? Are you serious?

 

Kool Aid for breakfast ????? They may not find as much "wrong" as some think .... but the hope of finding "nothing wrong" is the most ignorant thing to hope for.

 

Yes I am serious. And do you have any information contrary or are you here again protecting the cronies from losing their guns and power.

Tell us Leonidas how much you know or how little. Tell us about your knowledge.

 

This is funny. You as how much I know like I have to answer to people like you. LOL

 

Whatever that means.? Makes as much sense anything else you have written.
If nothing else Leonidas...try telling us what you fear from the following link. Who are you trying to protect?

http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp

 

Sorry Smithy, I was so amused at you people it was hard to type what I was thinking.

I think it is funny that you people think I have to answer your questions. You're no one that I have any desire to have any respect for so why answer any question from you.

If you was to look a little harder you can find 49 other e-mails to States Attorney Generals. In fact a close friends wife is an assistant AG in the State I live in. Nothing to fear from them, they are just people like me and who you want to be.

 

Flame away. idc Propping up the facility dooms the sport until another org can come along. The sport will not grow until the enablers are gone.

 

I believe the enabler might have come out of the ether and decided to put up the checkbook.