Will the Trapshooting Hall of Fame have to pay rent ?????

Who will own the HOF building if the WSRC is sold to someone other than the ATA .... and will the new owner require the THOF to pay rent for use of the new building ?????

Pay big money to build something you may have to rent .... who'da thunk it ....

 

Rent or taxes. Here in Wisconsin in my area we have people who lease the land and built a house on it. The land owner collects lease payments (rent) from the home owner plus maintenance fees for upkeep on common area and pays taxes on land value. The home owner pays to the township personnel property tax on the building value.

 

The HOF is toast. How many people do you really think will visit it? If they have a Grand some shooters will walk through then it will just lie dormant. It's in a remote location that's not easy to visit do it won't get any visitors. Bet that location offered in Ohio looks awful good now.

 

The ATA and HOF committee can care less if anyone walks through the HOF building, its is a monument to them self using the accomplishments of others in a created place of display ... Who, but trap shooters would even be interested to see anything it might contain , then they move it to where trap shooters will not even drive to so they can shoot ... The HOF building sitting at the WSRC in Sparta, Ill might just as well be in Timbucktoo except more people would see it and visit it in Timbucktoo ... The HOF building belongs in Ohio just as its been for many years not in some little ghetto town in the middle of No Place, Illinois ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Here is the reality of it all: At this stage of the game, there are really only two options that may save the HOF and all the rich history it once housed. Option #1: Revisit and pursue the Cardinal Centers most generous offer (The best option in my opinion) and try to work something out with Mr. Fishburn, or option #2: See if it can somehow be returned to Vandalia where it all started and where it belongs. You know, we all have been saying a lot about the HOF and where it is and what happened to it. Well, guess what? The money has been spent, the mistake has been made, and as the old saying goes "You can't un-ring a bell once it has rung". There is NO WAY the ATA or the HOF is going to win this one with its location in Sparta... Salvage whatever they can, write it off, and move on. The money is GONE, and it's not going to come back. Facts are facts. We really should now be more concerned about the real issue regarding the survival of the HOF. The greats that made our sport what it is, the memorabilia the HOF contains and the rich history of our sport, forever needs to be preserved as it should be. Ohio is the birthplace of the HOF, and the very heart an soul of all that is sacred in registered trapshooting. It all began there and it should end there. It deserves a permanent home where it can be appreciated and accessible to all. Not in some Godforsaken gun unfriendly place like Sparta, Illinois The saddest thing for me personally to swallow, is all the time, energy, enthusiasm, sacrifice, love, and deep personal caring that our predecessors put in to make the HOF a special place in the heart of all trapshooters that share a common love and respect for our sport. For Christs sake, the HOF is the very essence of trapshooting. It traces our roots from the beginning to now. Read all the old articles about the Grand, read the book "The Road To Yesterday", read any past issues of The Sportsmans Review you can find and if that doesn't stir up something deep inside of you, you have no business even discussing the future of the HOF. Much of the memorabilia housed in the HOF was actually used by the greats of our sport. The legends of trapshooting and their gear reside there For many, it was the achievement of a lifetime of giving their all to our sport to be inducted. Fortunately, guys like Kenny Ray still have that warm and fuzzy glow when remembering the greats of our sport. Dick Baldwin and Drew Hause also come to mind doing what they could, and can do to keep our history alive. I'm a member of the old guard who looks fondly back at some of the greats I have been able to meet, read about those I never will, and cherish the memories I have of my chosen sport. In my personal opinion, the one thing the ATA could now do to get the ship sailing in the right direction is to show some respect to those that went before us and do everything in their power to restore the HOF and make it even bigger.... My heart is heavy just thinking about how how all the old timers would feel knowing that all their effort was for naught.....

 

I will agree the HOF situation sounds like a mistake. A question though, is the HOF supposed to be paying any rent under the lease as it exists, forget about the closing etc. If WRSC was up and running all along, what was the HOF supposed to be paying in rent? I haven't heard that thrown around.

 

There is a thread that has lease agreement. It is for June 1 2014 to December 31 2039.

It would appear the building is the payment for "rent" during this term. Any new owner, other than the ATA, will be looking to get all the return possible from their investment. So if they own the HOF building as part of the purchase, they would want to collect rent.

From the "Lease" ... Page 10 ... 23(d) uses the language "Both the DNR and Lessee shall have the right to terminate this Agreement without cause and at either party's sole discretion prior to the expiration date by giving ninety [sic] (180) days advance written notice of termination to the other party."

 

The Cardinal Center has the Ohio THOF on the grounds now, and I would be willing to bet with a "Nice" approach, the building could be expanded to fit in all of the Trapshooting Hall of Fame artifacts.

Kenny Ray, Lynn Parsons, Jack Fishburn and Aiden Kaufman approached the THOF board of Trustees several years ago with a very generous offer from Mr. Fishburn.

Did Mr. Bradford and BOT the think twice about the offer ???

A nice "Thank You, but no thank you" was told to the group right then and there after the proposed presentation, so they went on their way and let the THOF Board of Trustees do what they felt best (Except for Lynn (Doc) Parsons who sat on the board) by building a 2.1 million dollar barn out in the middle of nowhere.

If I have that story wrong, I would hope that Kenny Ray will correct me, or ad to it.

Lynn Parsons was only one man on that BOT who could see the light, the rest..Well who knows what they were thinking?

I have this terrible pit in my stomach that as stated the money is gone, and if the artifacts are to be gotten out of storage and in view of the public, they THOF board will need to look to someone who would be willing to take the artifacts and present them well.

 

The State of Illinois has defaulted on a 10, then an extended 10 year (20 years lease) , not sure I would put much faith in anything that says or refers to a lease when it comes to dealing with the same people who have already defaulted on the previous lease agreements (legal documents) ... The State has exempted itself from litigation based on the fact they cannot pay bills that have amassed over the past so many years of spending with wild abandon like a bunch of "Drunken Politicians" ... The courts are full of cases being litigated so if it got on the docket it would be years before it would be heard and probably vacated because it would cause additional harm (losses) to the States financial situation if the ruling was against the State of Illinois ... The initial lease and extension of same is nothing more than a worthless piece of paper at this point in time, much the same as the MOU and the State of Illinois knows it ... The State of Illinois can and probably will demand an excessive amount of money to short term lease the facility (another lease ..?) , which would constitute another lease (rental agreement) from the same people who issued the first lease and addition to that lease that will not be honored ... I guess somehow, someplace this is supposed to make sense if you want some thing bad enough, even if its not in your or the people you are supposed to represent 's best interest ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Well said.... Thank you

 

I would like to correct the above statement.

While Kenny Ray Estes was in agreement with Dr. H. Lynn Parsons that Sparta was not the best location for the THOF Museum, he was not part of the group who approached the Trustees of the Trapshooting Hall of Fame.

To the best of my knowledge leaders in the Ohio State Trapshooting Association offered to help fund a new museum on the Cardinal Center grounds owned by Mr. Fishburn. They wished to make this offer in person at a meeting during the Grand American tournament. Dr. H. Lynn Parsons asked the Trustees to allow the OSTA to make the trip to Sparta and present their offer during the Grand American tournament. The offer contained money in the amount of $100k with the belief that the OSTA might be able to raise $250k; land; and assistance from Mr. Fishburn's business of which no specific details were given. Both Parsons and Estes supported the offer as they believed it provided a secure future for the THOF. Only Parsons was a voting member of the Trustees.

Mr. Aden Kaufman was the main speaker and made a power-point presentation that covered nearly every last detail. At the end, Mr. Fishburn addressed the trustees and made two short statements. He has had the location of the museum staked out near the entrance of the Cardinal Center and planned to be part of the "Adopt a Highway" program, clear the area near the roadway, plant beautiful landscape so that every one in the 44,000 cars driving by each day would look down and see the THOF Museum. His last statement was something he had not even shared with the OSTA Directors. He said he had met with his lawyer and planned to place the entire shooting facility into a trust so that it would remain such, after his death.

Questions and confirmation of the details of the meeting can be directed to Brad Dysinger who was in attendance.

Enjoy Our History!

 

Location, location, location and all for naught. What a shame.

 

Thank You History Buff for correcting my information. I stand corrected.

I had some of the facts confused with others, and I knew you would help me out with this if I was wrong.

Thank you once again.

 

No problem "Brad's friend (I hope)"

For the purpose of accuracy I felt those actually involved should receive the credit in your above acknowledgment.

You are very welcome.

 

What HAS happened is always important ... being accurate is also very important ... my question is more to what MAY happen.

It does not look like there is any protection for the THOF against the "DNR" terminating the "lease","at either party's sole discretion", and selling the building with the property. Then the new owner charging "rent" for something the THOF used "donations" to build.

Is this just one more "Oh well", to the tune of a couple of million bucks ?????

 

...."Mr. Aden Kaufman was the main speaker and made a power-point presentation that covered nearly every last detail. At the end, Mr. Fishburn addressed the trustees and made two short statements. He has had the location of the museum staked out near the entrance of the Cardinal Center and planned to be part of the "Adopt a Highway" program, clear the area near the roadway, plant beautiful landscape so that every one in the 44,000 cars driving by each day would look down and see the THOF Museum. His last statement was something he had not even shared with the OSTA Directors. He said he had met with his lawyer and planned to place the entire shooting facility into a trust so that it would remain such, after his death."....

What more could possibly be asked for when considering the movement of the THOF? This piece of information is a glaring example of the ineptness of the leadership involved at that time. Fortunately it is not too late to save it for the generations of shooters that will follow.... Thanks HB for the information..

 

One final piece of information I should share is . . . . . . who would be the actual owner the building and property.

For several years I kept a voicemail on my phone from Mr. Kaufman. I had asked him if Mr. Fishburn was willing to gift the land where the museum would be constructed to Trapshooting Hall of Fame, Inc. That is . . . . the deed would be in the name of the THOF. That voicemail verified that Mr. Fishburn would donate the property and it would be owned by the THOF.

When construction of the museum started at the World Shooting and Recreational Complex . . . . and Mr. Kaufman left us for the "Happy Hunting Grounds" . . . . . . I deleted his message.

Sure wish I had kept it just to hear Aden's voice again.

 

My Dad was Dick Baldwin...there was nothing more important to him besides a couple of kids and a good hunting dog...than the history of trapshooting...hope the items I donated when he was inducted to the HOF will be seen and protected...everything should have stayed in Vandalia ..in my opinion.

 

I have the same opinion.

 

I would not be so fast in moving everything into the building at the WSRC , depending on the long term out come of the up coming negotiations there might just be another move in their future ... I do not see many people taking the ride to explore the place if the WSRC gets permanently closed ... They can't draw a crowd now, why would they then ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

PROJECT COST: HOF Building

Original Ground Survey and Geo Tech Investigation $18,550

Guaranteed Price of Building (Overhead & Profit Inclusive) $1,500,000

Single Change order, Lawn, Parking Lot, Fire Suppressant System (Overhead & Profit Inclusive) $107,000

Architect Fees $119,000

Design Builders Fee $80,350

Total $1,824,900

Interior Finish Exhibit Cabinetry, Display Cases, Wall Coverings, etc. $300,000

TOTAL COST $2,124,900


The Hall of Fame goes through a Certified Audit by a CPA firm each fiscal year…every revenue dollar is accounted for, as is every expense invoice. The Hall of Fame has been built by donations…..presently pledges are approximately $380,000 less than total project cost….our capital campaign continues….tax deductible contributions are welcome. There are no outstanding contracts or bills. There is a construction note in place secured by our portfolio. Don’t know if I can be anymore clear. Our artifacts and collectibles are in no danger and are not tied up in our construction loan.


$200,000 ( $199,350) ` Architect Fees and Design building Fee seems a little excessive for the end result ... There is a lot of room there for grease (graft) and kick backs, thats for sure ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

As I said before, wrong place. If anyone visits the HOF they will be there during the Grand American. During the rest of the year visitors will be non-existent. Will there be someone there to meet and greet visitors during the year? Will there be someone there during the year for routine cleaning and maintainence? What exactly will the HOF do during the months there's no shooting at The WSC? Will it just be closed down? Will it move again? Who are the trustees that approved this move and new building? Are any of them discussing their decision and the thought process behind their decision? Have they given thought to the next location and how they'll pay for it?

 

I highly doubt the THOF will pay for someone to sit there day in and day out to greet the non existing public visitors...

My guess is there will be people at the Grand to staff the place and that would be about it...

BUT, you never know with this BOT that run that place...They may opt to be open 24/7/52

Seems that would be their stupid logic with this whole move...

 

That is if the grand American is going to be there this year or after with all of the uncertainty that is going on about the facility and rental, lease agreements ... If the grand stays there it does not make sense to have the HOF building operational more than a week before and maybe a week after the grand, so that leaves 11 months of sitting Idle , unless Mrs Leo Harrison III ( that's her new sing off name, so no body forgets ) come to visit on a weekly or monthly basis ... Those are all GREAT QUESTIONS Seitz9010, but don't matter till the time comes (Bridges and crossing when you get to them type thing ) ... No common sense or reasoning applied as usual ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Just a question because I don't know. When the Hall of Fame was in Vandalia how much was it open..... every day, once a week, or only during shoots?

 

PAPA27,

The THOF was open every day of the week except for holidays. On occasion schools and other groups would ask for a private showing after hours and sometimes on weekends. The museum was staffed daily by the operations manger who always honored those requests.

I remember a few years back a group of our Aussie friends had just finished shooting the Grand American Handicap tournament at Sparta and asked if they could stop by to see the museum. They had a great time and I seem to recall their group picture was in Trap & Field.

I have no personal knowledge of the hours of operation when the new museum opens. I don't believe there will be necessary to bear the expense of opening the doors five (5) days a week. I expect the greatest number of visitors during shooting and other events held at the World Shooting & Recreational Complex.

According to a notice on the ATA webpage, yesterday March 14th was the target day the artifacts were to be removed from storage and on their way to their new home. Tomorrow March 16th was noted as the date that dignitaries were invited to visit the museum. I can't imagine how they could have everything unpacked and placed on display in that short a period. Hopefully, there will be an update notice on the THOF webpage shortly.

 

HB so how many visited the HOF when shooting wasn't going on, I doubt there
were visitors daily like some would like us to believe while it was in Ohio.

 

PAPA27,

I honestly don't know how many folks visited the THOF when it was at the ATA's homegrounds. There were certainly days without visitors.

I'm not aware of attempts made to deceive anyone into believing the museum was bustling with onlookers every day. Of course visitorship slowed greatly during those years of operation when the Grand American Handicap tournament was no longer held at the same location.

Good people believe relocating the THOF & Museum with the Grand American Handicap tournament is the proper and logical decision for securing the future success of the organization. Other good people believe the organization would be more secure and prosperous if it was in a more densely populated location. Regardless of the position, I think we all want those treasured artifacts to be protected and on display for the world to see.

It is certainly unfortunate, in my view, the current situation regarding the World Shooting & Recreational Complex, and more importantly that ownership of the museum was not a primary concern in the decision to relocate. I believe it is more often than not, a very important factor in evaluating both the success and security of any organization.

 

There were not many visitors to the HOF basically because no one knew that it even existed. A billboard each way from Vandalia on interstate 75 and 70 would have brought in some visitors, but I believe that there were some in the ATA that actually wanted to see the museum starve so there would be very little opposition to moving it to a place where nobody will visit it except during a shooting event there.It really is a shame and a sad situation that our HOF has been put in.

This is just my opinion. Let everyone know how you feel about what is going on with our HOF. Thank you.

Dave Berlet

 

Just the idea of having to have this conversation leaves me about half sick to my stomach. Sad very sad.

 

This is true and there should have been promotionals done from time to time, especially outreach to those who never heard of trap shooting. Billboards would have been a good idea.

In the later years I know this was considered, however due to real concerns over the potential for fire and theft, the museum was never advertised. Also, the collection had not had a recent appraisal for insurance purposes. In 2012, an inventory and appraisal of every artifact within the entire collection was completed.

When the newspapers started announcing the relocation of the THOF & Museum, it was learned that many of the local citizens never knew the museum existed.

If you only knew how hard it hurts me.

 

I can imagine.

 

HB,

Thank You for looking into that insurance issue, along with other important issues that somehow had gotten forgotten by previous Curators of these precious items.

We all know none of these could be replaced if lost to fire or storms, but at least they became insured.

Again, thank You for all you do in keeping us informed.

Amazing just yesterday I asked you about a Lady shooter and within hours you had the answers for me.

You sure do go out of your way to help all of us. Thanks !