MOU - - You decide - - signed copy

Many thanks to the sources.

 

Very impressive document! What the hell is it good for? Obviously, way over my head as I see it as a worthless piece of paper designed to say nothing but in reality impress those easily fooled.

 

Quote the Raven nevermore.

 

So, three posters will say this shows the Grand will go on as scheduled, and all the others will say it's not worth the paper it is printed on.

 

It is Toilet Paper, no money for use of the facility, I like Charmin myself.

This is a worthless document that says nothing, Wane Morris is a fool for even signing it.

No Attorney would suggest even signing it, If ATA Attorney suggested signing this document he should resign.

Gary Bryant................................Dr.longshot

 

Nixon signed one with the USSR, in 1972, or so.

 

Was the one Nixon signed as well written as this one?

 

What can I say but it's worthless and the IDNR and the ATA know it. The lease was cancelled by the State and you cannot add an amendment to a voided lease. It just shows how crazy these people are.

 

The lease was never voided.

 

The ATA does not have a lease. It cannot hold a match today if it wanted too. The WRSC is Closed. Whatever language you want to use, use it, but it's voided, cancelled and is no more. The ATA's right to make use of the facility is no more.

 

Only shooting and camping is closed, the rest of the facility remains open, but believe whatever you want.

 

Sure we can all think what we like or check with the IDNR. No shooting!

The above quote from the recent post by username santos quoting the IDNR site. No shooting. None scheduled in the future. None.

 

It is my understanding that in early December, the ATA sent the IDNR, a notice of default which called for termination of the amended lease agreement signed in 2011.

However, in that notice the ATA noted the December 15, 2015 deadline for the IDNR to comply with their existing agreement . . . and . . . at the same time granted the IDNR and extension to January 31, 2016.

My guess is that both parties are of the opinion that the recent MOU keeps the 2011 lease agreement in play.

Just my take on it and I could be completely wrong.

 

I think the opposite. The MOU is a fool's errand on the part of Gipson. If the state wanted to honor the lease they would have honored the lease.

 

You could be wrong, but you're not.

And, because the ATA exercised their rights of the lease, they can grant more time as needed.

 

I've been out of the picture for awhile.....but if there's issues with Sparta......it's time to go to Las Vegas, where it should have gone in the first place.

 

"Nothing in this Memorandum Of Agreement precludes the ATA from exploring other opportunities to hold the Grand American elsewhere and terminating the lease agreement."

I'm thinking if nothing precludes either party from walking away there's not much of an agreement to do anything. This whole fiasco us laughable at best but quite sad in reality. The MOU means nothing and commits no one to anything. This is the kind of tough negotiation only Grntitan or Hunter44 understand and get excited over. They're residing in a parallel universe but apparently quite content. Ignorance is truly bliss.

Then we have poor duffkjs06 turning himself inside out trying to put a positive spin on a bad situation. Only duffy boy can remove a turd by picking up the clean end.

 

Look at the quote you used, that is language to protect the ATA's rights that are in the lease. As I predicted, here you are with your made up doom and gloom.

Then some how, you take one quote out of the MOU, and leap and/or extrapolate to "precludes either party from walking away there's not much of an agreement to do anything," how do you get from one thing to the next?

I've never seen, so many "legal experts", such as found on this site, that can't understand basic written words.

 

Duffer, I'll go on record here and now saying I feel confident there will be no Grand at Sparta in 2016 and if I'm wrong and there is the Grand American handicap, it will have less than 1500 shooters. So let's see if I'm right. There's still more bad news on the way but I'm sure you'll keep doing backflips to keep the positive spin going. Good luck!

 

#2. IDNR Pledges to maintain to a minimal standard ..?

# 3 ... They all agreed that anything prior to is no longer agreed upon (cancels prior lease agreement) ... Key words: IDNR does not commit to any terms, other agreement ...

Everything else is jibberish, as in meaningless because there are no drop dead dates , anyone who would sign something like this should have his head examined (that goes without saying ) and is not acting in the best interest of the Membership and or Association ... The only thing positive is that nothing is positive and the State has control and is in the drivers eat ... IF the grand is held in Sparta, the ATA will have to come up with more of an investment to rent or lease the facility than they will possibly be able to recover ... (sit back and watch this one, Ethel) If ANY of the BOD has any BALLS they should put the EC on Notice and force the issue to not bother pursuing this matter ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

What about the obvious conflict of interest ????

What value is there to be a "year-round" vendor, it there are no customers "year-round" ???? How hard will he be allowed to fight to bring value to his "year-round" business ????

 

Illinois Governor caused the IDNR & State Of Illinois to VOID/CANCEL the lease by closing the WRSC by not having a BUDGET IN PLACE, Absolutely NO MOU can reinstate a BROKEN LEASE that THEY BROKE.

Gary Bryant.........................Dr.longshot

 

I sure do hope that the ATA wigs are still pursuing a PLAN "B".

Although I still somehow believe someone will step up to the plate with money in hand and save Sparta for this year, it could still happen that they don't get a contract with the IDNR.

IF they don't have a PLAN "B" in place, the whole GHA would go down the tubes.

Pro Active thinking on the ATA's part for the shooters is paramount with this issue.

My 2 cents

 

How about this?

 

That's what I'm talkin' about...

Maybe Trapwife has some additional info on a plan "B".

I really mean it, as she seems to really know more than we do. She does filter down some interesting information to us.

 

You know, it would be really be in the best interest of the ATA right now to explain to the membership what their plans are if the Grand does not go off in Sparta this year. I understand they are positive it will happen, but, what are they going to do if it doesn't. IF THERE IS a plan B, why not share it so the membership has some idea what the ATA is doing to protect the Grand, regardless of the obstacles? Just sayin' ya know?

 

They do not have a "plan A" at this point ... unless praying for a miracle is a "plan".

 

The ATA has released the plan, have stated it more than once, in more than one form. If some don't believe it, what more would you like them to do?

 

Duff,
Pay attention, I am going to type this as slow as I can for your benefit one more time ..

The ATA had a lease which is a legal document, Illinois was not going to honor the lease so it went to a tentative agreement (with nothing in writing ) , then was balanced on an MOU that typically said nothing and means nothing can be contested in a legal proceeding and will be rendered null and void , then went to a probable agreement which means pretty much nothing (probably) is not carved in stone or even put on paper , then to a probable agreement that will be based on the terms the State of Illinois set forth, but nothing in writing until after 04-15-16 ... If you find anything POSITIVE in any or all of these negotiations would you PLEASE point it out to all of us so we can get excited also ... We obviously during the course of reading all of the posting missed something that was of great importance that you did not miss or you been hitting the kool aid to hard and should chill out ... The ATA has said many things way to many times for anyone who has been around for any length of time to put any faith in ... The ATA told the State of Illinois how many millions of dollars they would generate being at the WSRC with all of the entry's and 100,000 visitors and the State found that to be inaccurate also based on tax revenues collected in the local and region of the State ... Now back off the kool aid and read this really slow, you can do it and remember we Love you man ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You can type it as slow as you like, you can type it as many times you want. It still won't make it true.

History Buff will tell you the truth, he is reading and understaning the lease, time extensions, and the MOU the same way I am.

 

"The IDNR does not commit to any terms in a subsequent agreement"

In short........all previous deals are null and void.

"or to any prospective funding."

In short.........we are not agreeing to fund anything.

I showed this to an attorney. I think he is still laughing.

 

Editorial:
After 82 years, a question for Madigan and Cullerton
Editorial Board
With his first year in office behind him, Republican Gov. Bruce Rauner touted some of his accomplishments during his State of the State message Wednesday. He pointed to some genuine spending reductions, reform of an easily abused business tax incentive program, the start of some welcome efficiencies in human services administration.

But let's face it. The impasse over a state budget, which is putting more pressure every day on those who rely on state government, still dominates discussion. And with good reason. A lot of people in Illinois are feeling the pain.

But in highlighting the positives, Rauner didn't point to one particular accomplishment: He didn't surrender to the status quo, to the political leaders who have run Illinois into the ground.

Let's quickly review the terms. The Illinois legislature sent the governor a budget last spring that was wildly irresponsible. It promised $4 billion more in spending than the state would have in revenue. Rauner vetoed that budget. The legislature did not go back and approve a balanced budget for the current fiscal year. The governor has suggested he's willing to increase taxes to reach a balanced budget, in exchange for reforms he wants. The legislative leaders have not been willing to meet any of his demands.

Michael Madigan and Senate President John Cullerton: Are they so stubborn that they'll extend this budget impasse even if it hurts the disabled, the sick, the elderly and others who rely on the state?


Because Illinois has to grow more taxpayers. That's why.
Rauner, in his speech, brought up two of his demands: a commitment for House and Senate votes on term limits and redistricting reform. Both ideas are popular with voters.

We watched Madigan and Cullerton, standing behind Rauner. Stone-faced. Term limits, redistricting reform. That comes at no risk to anyone except them. It puts their power at risk.

Rauner has not surrendered to them. Meanwhile, he has quietly been moving to bend the cost side of Illinois government.

A number of public employee unions have reached reasonable contract agreements with the governor. Then there is the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, which represents 35,000 state workers. AFSCME — whose members, as Rauner noted, are well-compensated compared to public employees in other states — wants $3 billion more in overall compensation for its next contract.

Rauner asks that AFSCME members work a 40-hour week before they start to get overtime. The union refuses.

There are some faint signs that Rauner could find common ground with Cullerton, the president of the Senate. They've apparently made progress on a pension plan proposed by Cullerton. Rauner sounded open to changes in the state school aid formula, an initiative led by Senate Democrats.

Rauner conceded Wednesday that his tenure has been rocky. "All of us in this chamber had a difficult year together in 2015 as we debated a budget with structural reform. But it is not too late for this General Assembly to make historic progress for the people of Illinois," he said.

It is not too late. In fact, it really needs to happen now. People are feeling the hurt.

But that will require the two gentlemen who have a combined 82 years in Springfield to acknowledge that the future vitality of Illinois requires a lot more than a balanced budget.

To acknowledge that they have to deal with a governor who won't surrender to the status quo.

And that they for many, many years have been the status quo.

 

But, WHAT IF THEIR CURRENT PLAN DOESN'T WORK OUT? What then, or do you know of an alternate plan we aren't aware of? What part of my post do you not understand?

 

All state and satellite grands have a date, they all announced them. By your way of thinking, do they all have another plan, just in case something happens or do you just go with what was announced?

It is what it is, the ATA has assured everyone the Grand will be in Sparta. I can understand some may not believe it, or not trust them. But, at some point some trust must be given or, I guess find something to use to keep beating the same dead horse.

 

The ATA or (Co Sponsor) is going to be required to pay the State of Illinois a lot of money for the use of the facility, much more than they will be able to recover ... The number of people interested in attending the grand gets smaller every day, it will be even worse by the time they sit down to negotiate the fees to be terms and the ATA will not have any choice but to deal or no deal and not have the grand at all ... People do not plan on attending a shoot that is supposed to be the "Big One" (Ethel) , at the last minute especially when they have to make arrangements for places to stay or to rent a trailer to stay in on site ... There is no part of it that truly makes any sense at all, and the days just keep on keeping on ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

We went to dinner last night with a Buddy and his wife who is a retired Attorney , I asked if he had looked at any of the postings and he just laughed and said it was ridiculous for anyone to put any faith in anything they will not put on paper ... I asked what he thought about the lease, he said Illinois has so many law suits filed against it they will never all get to court and those that do will be vacated because the State has no way to settle anything that involves money ... He is a life member of the ATA and follows the sites as an observer, says the old place is newer shooter's who for the most part who do not have a clue ... He did say he was surprised that none of the BOD has not stopped many of the actions taken by the EC and ED and his impression is that the ATA will soon be a thing of the past if they continue in the direction they are headed ... We had to change the subject, the wives were tired of listening to us ... Dinner was great ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

From a participant's scheduling issue, it's irrelevant what the ATA will pay for use of the facility. However, I would think and have always thought, if no budget is passed by 4/15, then the ATA would, and most definitely SHOULD, only be interesting in leasing the shooting facilities, and any needed accouterments.

 

WPT, I agree with your buddy's assesment, and yours.

I also think the talk about "we cannot, will not and won't negotiate until 4/15, is a crock. Both sides already have an idea of what will be the final result, if the existing lease needs to be reopened.

 

The last lease was not honored by the State of Illinois. And how many people right now really give a crap now? Gipson has to care. He has a business to protect. He voted to give a $2.1 mil building to the state of Illinois. Cant leave his HOF building behind. And he gets paid to be a mouth of the ATA.

Illinois would not honor the last lease. Few care about the next lease.

 

Now ladies and gentlemen,

That is the example of a non thinking Kool-Aid drinker.

 

duffhjs06,
Any satellite grand could be moved or canceled at any time and it would not affect the ATA as much as the problems about the Grand this year. The Grand is going to have a problem with the shooters that only have one or two weeks of vacation from their jobs. Many must schedule them well in advance. If they take the Grand week and then it flops, they can not reschedule to attend another shoot as most are over for the season, and they will have already passed up many good shoots to attend. Us old retirees will not have that problem, we will be there if it happens and if it does not we will all survive.

It will have an adverse affect on the attendance, also if the ATA would be more forth coming with their plans it could help the shooters prepare for the outcome. I know some of the vendors are not renewing the leases on the buildings for the future. Would you pay $10,000.00 for the use of a building for two weeks? One must sell a lot of items to pay that much and still make a profit.

I have no idea what you do for a living, but put your self in the shoes of the blue collar shooters and the vendors. Roger C.

 

Gipson affirms fantastic direction intact - the AIM shot has been expanded to four days instead of two. I believe we are to understand the interest is so overwhelming they had to expand to handle the huge volume of shooters expected. For any of you naysayers thinking they expanded to four days to recoup larger financial reward from a smaller than expected group don't go there. The ATA absolutely had to increase the number of days, I mean I think they did, I mean it seems plausible doesn't it? I mean I'm sure they're not doing things like this just to take in more money to overcome a feared financial loss are they?

 

ANDRZEJEWSKI: NEW ILLINOIS AUDITOR GENERAL FRANK MAUTINO MUST STEP DOWN

ADAM ANDRZEJEWSKI

GUEST VIEW
JAN 28, 2016 1064 1

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William Holland retired last fall, three years into his third 10-year term, the General Assembly appointed State Rep. Frank Mautino, D-Spring Valley, as his replacement. Mautino, the former Deputy House Majority Leader, was the anointed pick of powerful House Speaker Michael J. Madigan of Chicago.

But Mautino didn’t stop raising campaign cash — even though he wasn’t running for office any longer. He raised an additional $15,500 from longtime donors between the appointment vote and his swearing-in ceremony as auditor on Dec. 7.

Mautino said he used the money to “pay off debts, shred documents,” and “close his campaign office.” But his campaign disclosures show the loans were already paid off.

This week, the exposure by citizen watchdog groups of hundreds of thousands of dollars in odd payments flowing through Mautino’s campaign account prompted local and Springfield newspapers, good government groups and fellow legislators to ask him to open his books.

This week, the noted downstate accountability group — the Edgar County Watchdogs – quantified $213,338.31 in campaign gas and vehicle repairs paid byMautino’s political committee to one local vendor since 2005: Happy’s Super Service Station in hometown Spring Valley.

The “gas” and “gas and vehicle repairs” averaged $20,000 per year or roughly $55 per day over the last 10 years and nine months.

Additionally, at OpenTheBooks.com, we quantified Mautino’s state travel reimbursement payments (taxpayer money) amounting to nearly $30,000 since 2005. These reimbursements were for travel in regard to his legislative duties and service on the audit commission.

Last year, Republican Congressman Aaron Schock resigned from office after newspaper disclosures of alleged misappropriated gas and travel reimbursements. With Mautino, the gross amounts of the questionable transactions could dwarf the allegations against the former congressman.

But Mautino’s campaign spending doesn’t stop with the gas and car repairs. The hometown Ottawa Times newspaper quantified $77,967 or $382 per month over 17 years spent on “campaign meals” at local restaurants. About $33,000 was spent at his wife’s family’s restaurant, Alfano’s Little Sicily in Spring Valley. Since 1999, Mautino billed the campaign for 500 trips to Alfano’s.

Mautino also spent $273,973 at the local bank, Spring Valley City Bank. The Edgar County Watchdogs again did the math and Mautino’s disclosed loan and principle payments of $94,000 exceeded his disclosed bank loans of $26,000. Then, the watchdogs found another $180,000 in campaign expenses paid to … the bank.

When is the last time anyone saw a local bank running campaign operations?

Here are just a few of the checks that Mautino’s campaign cut to his local bank: $10,000 for poll workers, precinct walkers, and phone banks; $2,600 for 52 precinct walkers; and $8,000 for election expenses.

Our organization at OpenTheBooks.com found other questionable dealings. The family distribution company, Mautino Distributing Company, has received $271,417 in state agency payments — mostly starting in 2009. Coinciding with Mautino’s promotion to Madigan’s leadership team as Assistant Majority Leader, state agency payments into the company jumped from $9,393 (2008) to $71,701 (2009). Mautino worked there for 16 years under his father, and today, his cousin, Mark J. Mautino of Spring Valley, runs it.

In line with a highly publicized resolution last fall at the College of DuPage, new Illinois Auditor General Mautino is in charge of an outside “trust” audit of the school’s spending. After exposure of such spending of his own, who would trust Mautino’s conclusions?

In Illinois, our No. 1 manufactured product is corruption where governors typically end up making license plates. The people need an auditor with basic integrity.

In Illinois, this integrity must be proven. Mautino cannot meet this basic standard.

Mautino must be held accountable for his own record. Mautino must resign asIllinois Auditor General immediately.

Adam Andrzejewski is founder ofOpenTheBooks.com, This column originally was published by the Daily Herald.


Sounds like this guy would be a good candidate for the EC or ED, maybe on the BOD of the ATA ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

POLITICAL CORRUPTION IN ILLINOIS: 8 FACTS

CAITLIN WILSON

REBOOT STAFF
JUN 5, 2015 8373 3

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report from the University of Illinois at Chicago Department of Political Science looks at the rates of federal public corruption convictions in Illinois and Chicago and compares them to similar convictions in other states.

As the report points out, Chicago and Illinois are often mocked as being notoriously rife with public corruption. But just because our pain can provide a good punchline for a joke doesn’t mean we should be proud of the consequences of such wide-spread corruption.

From the report:

For more than a century and a half Chicago and Illinois have been notorious for public corruption. Year after year, national and international news media delightfully recount every new case of bribery, fraud, stealing from taxpayers, ghost payrollers and illegal patronage. Our shameful reputation has continued to provide fodder for scores of comedians and late night talk show hosts.

But corruption is not funny and it is not free. Its costs are steep. We all pay a staggeringly high corruption tax and we suffer from diminished government services. In addition, we are handicapped by a poorly functioning democracy because a large number of our citizens — with good reason — have lost faith in the honesty and fairness of government.

Here are 8 particularly interesting facts and comparisons from the UIC report about Illinois and Chicago corruption and the way they affect Illinoisans:

1. The federal Judicial District for Northern Illinois reports more public corruption convictions than any of the country’s 92 other judicial districts, followed by the Central District of California and the Southern District of New York.

2. The judicial district had 45 convictions in 2013 and 1,642 since 1976, for an average of 52.2 convictions per year.



3. Statewide, Illinois has the third-most public corruption convictions for 2013, after New York and California.



4. Illinois has the seventh-highest per-capita convictions of all states in the country.



5. There are an average of 15.4 federal public corruption convictions per 100,000 people every year in Illinois.

6. Illinois corruption costs taxpayers about $500 million per year in damages, lost productivity, prosecution and it inflates the cost of all state contracts by about 5 percent.

7. Hefty non-monetary costs, such as car accidents caused by faulty Secretary of State operations, the deterrence of companies to settle in the state and the loss of trust of Illinoisans in their government, increase the negative effects of corruption in Illinois.

8. Corruption in Chicago could contribute to the city’s high murder rates because citizens have lost faith in their government and don’t put as much stock into following laws and cooperating with police.

The authors of the report acknowledge that the poor rankings of Illinois and the effects of corruption can make it seem like cleaning up government in the state is a lost cause. And it will be a hard job, they say. But they outline eight steps to consider when formulating an anti-corruption culture in Illinois government going forward:

1) Demand more transparency and accountability;

2) Hire more inspectors general, including suburban inspectors general;

3) Provide a new program of civic education in schools by passing the law pending in the state legislature;

4) Encourage more citizen participation in government and politics by moving the date of the primary;

5) Adopt public financing for political campaigns;

6) Elect better public officials;

7) Change how we remap legislative districts and adopt term limits for elected officials; and

8) End political machines and change Illinois’ culture of corruption.”




These changes are needed in the ATA also ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

HB Not only did IDNR Violate the lease, they have not paid the ELECTRIC bill either

GB...............DLS

 

Doc, I've been watching the discussion and seeing that bill was absolutely unbelievable. I wonder if and when the Electric utility will disconnect? What if they were to wait until just before the Grand American?

It would be very wise for at least one ATA Delegate to ask for an itemized listing of all estimated expenses identified by the ATA.

Back in 2012 when the ATA announced they were relocating the offices to Sparta by May due to the high expense of remaining in Vandalia, I asked the Controller for the ATA's estimated expenses for 2012. Off the top of my head I believe it was about $32,000 less than the $80,000 figure touted by the Zone Vice-Presidents. I still believe the Controller's figures which (again from memory) included about $1,500 for lawn care which could have been eliminated. Point is, not one Delegate asked for the Controllers figures and relied solely on what they were being told by ATA officials.

My reason for hoping and praying that some Delegate will start asking questions and demanding answers is to insure that our organization is safeguarded from assuming a huge debt by leasing the WSRC for 4 months and insuring that the ATA can afford the operations.

I've heard a huge figure for electric use over the proposed lease agreement for May, June, July & August, the period. How much you ask Doc? Well, more than $190,000 for those 4 months according to 2015 invoices.

Who's going to be responsible for the electric bill? That's a question at lease one wide-awake Delegate should ask. Additionally, another good question would be why there is noting in the MOU regarding who will be responsible for associated expenses during those 4 months? These things were spelled out in the original ATA-IDNR lease agreement and amended lease agreement of 2011, so why not in the MOU?

Maybe its just me . . . but I'm having a hard time believing the Governor gave the OK for the IDNR to enter into a MOU with the ATA, knowing that the electric usage and other utility expenses, security operations, etc. will add to Illinois' financial woes.

Maybe its must me . . . . but I believe the Governor had to have been assured that the IDNR would not incur one additional penny of expense in leasing the WSRC to the ATA. If the WSRC spends $20,000 for electric during spring months but in August it jumps to nearly $90 due to the ATA tournaments . . . . who will be responsible for paying the electric bill?

Oh well, I'm sure everything is going to work out just fine. No real need for a Delegate to get involved. Wouldn't want any of them to experience the deep concern I have.

Sorry! I must be just having a "Chicken Little" moment. The Egyptian Electric Cooperative Association wouldn't throw the disconnect switch just before the World Championships would they????

 

Kenny.... Could be that they will wait until then and advise the ATA that if they want to proceed they will have to bring the utilities up to date before anyone can fire a shot! The State, and the IDNR know full well that they have the ATA between a rock and a hard place and I believe they are going to do everything they can to get the ATA to pay as many past bills, and future bills, as they can get away with in order for the ATA to gain access to Sparta for the Grand. Like you, this electric bill really floored me! The State of Illinois is flat broke and I doubt very much if they are going to shell out almost a quarter of a million dollars for this bill to keep the lights on at the WRSC just so the ATA can use it for just a few months. It's getting sadder by the day folks.... How much more can the membership take before they finally get their head out of their a$$es and realize how badly the ATA is being managed.... It's incredible.

 

Does anyone remember the $4,000,000.00
That I told you was going to be on the test?

Ron Burdick

 

Ron,

Do you know where the $4,000,000.00 is to come from. Giving the ATA that kind of money would be like giving an adict a coffee can full of coke would it not? I fear the EC and BOD are on the verge of another great blunder. I hope they let the brightest of the group read the lease agreement. Hopefully not the same ones that read the HOF lease. Roger C.

 

Roger:
I believe we have enough $$$ in the ATA
Accounts to take care of these little bumps in the road.

Ron Burdick

 

I figure you are about on the "MONEY" Ron...

With 4 million on the line, I guess the ATA could last about 3 more years.

Oooops, take out $250,000.00 WE donated to the state out of ATA funds in the building of the STATE OWNED THOF Museum.

Ahhh, I forgot, that's just pocket change..

Am awaitng the TEST with baited anticipation...

 

Thread after thread, post after post, are about the "Glory Days" of Trapshooting being dead and gone, to never return.

Then you see that some are hopeful that a 120 trap "ATA owned" club would be worth the investment of millions of membership dollars.

It may be easier to bring back Olympic "Croquet", and use "Sparta" as a training ground.

"Croquet is credited with being the first Olympic event in which women participated, but the game’s tenure was limited to a one time only appearance in Paris 1900. Perhaps it was because only French competitors signed up for the event. Or it could be because only a single spectator purchased a ticket to the event. Most likely it was due to a damning declaration by an official report of the Paris Olympics that croquet was a game with “hardly any pretensions to athleticism.”

At least it has this over "The Grand".... "a single spectator purchased a ticket to the event."

 

Ron, The ATA buying the WSC would be like a man with sixteen kids buying a school bus after they all matured and left home. The ATA must do something to bolster the number of clubs throwing registered targets. They must also turn their attention to increase the number of registered shooters. The maintenance on the WSC must be very high. Do you think the ATA can afford the costs?

The electric bills are more than The ATA can afford to pay for the complete up keep of the site. Money will defanetly be a problem if things do not get changed. Roger C. PS. There will also be property taxes.

 

ATA should not be responsible for the Electric bill, they already got paid for it through the Lease agreements, both Vendor and Camping. Why was the IDNR not paying it's bills they got the money Upfront. Isn't it pay as you go? If the ATA pays that Electric Bill, ATA HEADS need to ROLL. Fired, ?Impeached


GB.................................DLS

 

Let 'em spend all their money. Spend spend spend. Go for it. Why rent the place? Buy it! Empty the accounts. I will go to 4 major events this year. Not one in Illinois. Never again will I be there.

These idiots could spend millions and still not have a shoot. lol

 

Not one delegate has come forward to say they asked about Bradford and Gipson's folly....the $2.1 million HOF building built to be owned by the State of Illinois. Not one seemed to care. To think one will magically pop-up is folly as well.

 

Speaking of delegates, the two I had conversations with were completely unaware of the unpaid bills or the actual MOU language but they are positive there are no problems with the 2016 Grand and both are also sure the SCTP will be back in 2017. Both felt that the so called problems posted on the internet are not real and made up or at least made to sound worse than they really are. To quote one, "do you really think you're in any position to know more than our executive director? Just calm down and quit stirring up shit, you have no idea what you're talking about and you're doing a lot of harm to those who are working to make things better for all shooters."

 

The story is s joke.

 

jmiller,

Please explain your comment if you would be so kind. I wouldn't want to misconstrue your position.

Thanks

 

HB

30,000 members. 30,000 potential leaders and this is our org's situation. Betting that a bankrupt gun hating state will save us from our leaders.

It is difficult to continue to take this group (ata) seriously.

 

Some facts for your consideration.
1. The Governor has authority to Veto funding for a particular line item in the Budget.
2. The Governor has the authority to Veto funding for an Entire Program or Agency.
3. The Governor can reduce or substitute amounts of a budget item for the legislature to consider.
4. The Senate President in January has said that they would like to see school reform included in the budget. Talk about a monkey wrench.
5.. The Illinois House meets only 5 days in February and one day is for the Governors Budget speech on the 17th.
6. It is now only a few hours away form the 1st of Feburary a full 8 months the state has not had a budget and a time when the next years budget should be under discussion.
7. The next Budget is due on 1 July 2016. Just a few months away and the STATE is BROKE.

A thought.
Given that Il. has been without a budget for 8 months is it not probable that there will not be one until the next budget is due on 1 July 2016.

Not withstanding the school reform issue which is huge what makes one think that the Governor will give up a bargaining chip (closuer of the WRSC)to get his program enacted.

 

Thank you jmiller.

I appreciate your response and really glad I asked you to explain. I did misunderstand your comment and thought perhaps you believed the statements you quoted, were inaccurate. I assure you and everyone else, they (my quoted statements) are a fair and honest representation of the facts as I understand them and there is documentation available to support those statements.

Personally, I believe the ATA leadership is doing what they feel is best for the organization. I like many others just have a different view. Even prior to the move to Sparta, many of us advised our leaders of all the reasons the relocation just did not seem to be a secure plan. We even pointed out the ATA's very own membership poll, but they still chose to divert from the developed relocation criteria.

I can't explain why they see things as they do nor how we see things the way we do. All I know is that there are many of us who are afraid for our organization's future because of the path to the future our leadership continues to follow.

And for caring so much, we are called ATA, Sparta & WSRC "haters and bashers". I only wonder why the name callers remain silent when it comes to seeking answers from our leaders but become very vocal and critical of those of us who would appreciate some details.

I long for the day when both sides make the decision join together to discuss the issues as a team. Place the ATA logo up on the wall, look at one another and know there will be disagreements but each will know and trust that they are working on a common goal. Absent of that commitment . . . . . . . the turbulent times will remain, and our association will not run like a finely tuned engine as it should.

HB

 

That statement baffles me. No group could be that consistently wrong.

 

History Buff I've told you many times what I think of the leaders of the ATA. I've told everyone since at least Loving was VP that the ATA was toast. Numbers don't lie even if the EC and Ex directors do. I was reading a 1975 trap and field last nite that had a cover picture of the ground breaking for the new traps at Vandalia and they were talking about saving the grand from moving until 1994 at least, after talking about moving it the year before, so this "move the grand" mentality was around for a long time.

Also I was reading some of the shoot notices, the one for the 1975 Ohio State shoot said come and join Ohio's 4500 members at the Ohio State shoot. Today Ohio has about 1700 members of which 500 are kids which is roughly a 63% lose, if you discount the SCTP kids it is about an 80% lose of membership, I'd like to see what the numbers are from 2003 until today but not enough to look it up.

Brad

 

I totally agree with you but why else would they continue to make decisions that you and I would never consider?

The only other explanation is that they are trying to harm the association and I just don't believe anyone would spend many years working as a State/Provincial Delegate and sitting member of the Executive Committee for that purpose. Something is causing them to make decisions that make us wonder what they see that we don't.

I'm open for other explanations.

I hear you Brad, but I can't give up hope that someday we will have leaders with the highest degree of integrity and who will regularly communicate with the members. Membership is the foundation of the association and if they fail to keep the foundation in good shape, the "crumble" will happen some day.

 

HB,
I totally agree with what you said about someone working as a State or Provincial Delegate and sitting on the EC, we assume is working for the betterment of the Association and not intentionally causing harm to same ... We have all seen the lease (as posted) and how open ended they are which only leaves the possibility of problems in thew future (obviously that has become a reality) by the State not honoring the initial lease as well as the honoring the additional term of the lease when they added another 10 years to it ... The State of Illinois (IDNR) and ATA agreed to 10 and then a 20 years lease agreement to secure a home for the grand into the future ( supposed to be no problem) ... The ATA knows and or should realize the attendance has continued to drop off since the move to Sparta (WSRC) and before that move took place, yet they (ATA, EC, ED, and BOD) have done nothing to try and find out why, what, where fore so it can be corrected and hopefully turned around ... The State cannot obviously see its dropping off .? which is seriously doubtful from the differential of income generated by the entry's ...
If a business begins to flounder after years of success there is obviously a problem, the sooner this problem is addressed (changed , altered or modified) the easier it is to reverse and get things back on the straight and narrow ... To sit and watch as it deteriorates does nothing to help it get better (cause's more harm) , which has obviously been done (not done) by those in charge by those in change ... The State of Illinois and ATA went from a lease, to a tentative agreement, to a probable agreement, to a possible agreement, to something that is of no use or value what so ever (MOU) and has hinged the future of the grand American and the ATA itself on those anticipated verbal agreements ... If the EC, BOD , and ED choose to take what ever deal is offered by the State it will no doubt be a costly mistake, I anticipate it is going to cost more than they can recover taking everything into consideration (more harm to Association) by them relying on what the States Agents say, not what they are willing to do (put it in writing) until its to late to not take the deal as proposed ... The deal will no doubt not be presented on 04-15-16 , that is only the date the State is not willing to negotiate until, unless things have been in motion all along the ATA is putting itself (the members and Association) in line for more harm to happen just so they can have a grand at a great financial loss and expense ... The members (many of) have lost confidence in the EC, ED and most of the BOD based on their actions or lack of to date, that only adds to the problem ... Integrity is something you have or do not have , once it comes into question the answer has usually already been established in more ways than one ... First time shame on you, second time , shame on me, there is no third time ... The EC, ED, and most of the BOD have showed nothing to anyone paying attention , probably because they have nothing to show and that is part of the problem ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Well said WPT, I believe you may have just "check-mated" this 'ol eternal optimist.

 

HB,
Not intentionally, I can assure you ... I have total respect for you and value your opinions to the highest degree ... I just read the things as posted and try to look at both sides or possibly both sides , then the results ... I feel the EC, ED and some of the BOD are like the blind leading the blind without reading anything ... You the Man ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I understand WPT. Your comments were well received on this end.

My intent was to engage in discussion so others could see both sides of the issue, and to express my hopefulness for a new direction to safeguard what we have. Your response covered the one side of the matter well. And I thank you.

Now, all we need is someone to step up like you did and offer reasoning in opposition to what you have expressed.

HB

 

Isn't it amazing that people vote for Delegates who don't know how to find out (or do not care to) information on such important issues about keeping the Sparta complex open. Delegates should know that Freedom of Information, and the internet can provide a wealth of information that at this time they should all be pursuing.

I would figure it is their duty to find out every fact involved on the Sparta complex, and do their duty by asking very detailed questions of our ATA EC.

Somewhere I believe the Delegates are falling through the cracks. They are the voice of the ATA members. I hope they didn't forget that.

 

Brads friend,(I hope) ,
The ATA EC, ED does not like Delegates that ask about or question their actions or agenda, if they do they will not be around long ... I totally agree that the Delegates should be demanding answers to questions on behalf of the membership they supposedly represent , but they do not for fear of losing their place in line for a new gun ... The Delegates have not been the voice of the people for a long time, those who run for the position who would demand answers don't get voted into office many times because the previous delegate is humping legs to get an other person elected who is on the same level as them but write several pages of trash for the Trap and Field Magazine ... The problems start with the delegates and goes straight to the top, then all the S*$T runs down hill right back to the membership ... Did you see the Video of the meeting, Morris was in never , never land thinking about what kind of new gun he was going to get for all of his intense involvement ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Did you see the Video of the meeting, Morris was in never , never land thinking about what kind of new gun he was going to get for all of his intense involvement ... WPT ... (YAC) ...[/QUOTE]

My God WPT....You said exactly what I was thinking.

After listening to Paul Shaw's explanation about why the ATA booted him from his position on the Audit Committee, I lost any and all respect for Mr. Morris. When I first knew of him, I thought finally a decent Delegate will be President again...Boy, did I loose that feeling in a jiffy.

 

You guys are seeing why I have been screaming from the rooftops about the way the ATA has been run for the last 25 years. To say that no one saw this coming isn't fact. I was ignored, laughed at, talked about, and even scorned by my fellow HOF members, fellow all americans, and fellow shooters. The one thing I can tell you for sure is most ATA Trap Shooters are oblivious to anything other than what is happening to them right now at the time. Few either care or have any idea what was going on but what pissed me off the most is they wouldn't listen. Now hear it is 2016 and the life of the ATA organizations is tied to one event at one place (the grand at sparta) and to hell with all the other small clubs. All the history and all anything but the damn EC's insane desire to not be proved wrong.

Just use pipe layer as an example, he seemed ok but now appears dumb as a doornail in his rush to his President's gun. The current ATA president is a little understandable since he comes from a state with basically an OHIO sportsman's club membership. How running a 60 man state shoot makes you VP material is a joke. In fact the whole EC is a joke. Thinking this bunch capable of making a smart decision is the biggest joke of all.

Brad's friend (I hope) never underestimate the stupid doing something truly stupid. Just think HOF building and the 2 million bucks flushed down the toilet. I can even understand the likes of Duffis, Hunter44, the GREEEN TITIAN making dumb statements because they haven't been around long enough to know anything. The delegates and the EC don't get a pass from me. 25 years of pointing out crooks and dumb asses takes it's toll so when the ATA is done I won't shed a tear. Brad

 

Brad,

I can get in my truck and drive a maximum of 40 minutes to six different clubs that have registered shoots almost every Sunday, the only Sunday that league takes off is if a conflict with one of the big shoots. Then the state shoot and two satellite grands, and every third year the zone shoot is a 30 minute drive. Then on Tuesdays, there is a 850 shooter Tuesday night traveling league. In addition, there are another four clubs that just shoot trap for fun.

I know how lucky I am to be around so much shooting in such a small area. But I can only form my opinion on what I see, what other shooters tell me. Then I read up on the history and what happened and the way it was, then come to sites on the internet and read all the misinformation, or misunderstanding of what is being presented, and then repeat, repeat, repeat.

Then right in front of my eyes, all this misinformation is being talked about as fact. For instance, the new one going around and my new personal favorite, the WSRC has thousands of visitors for all kinds of shooting and other activities, yet that is why sales tax revenue in the area is down. There is no way that is possible. I'm not saying the sales tax revenues aren't down, but there is no way it's because thousands of visitors go to the WSRC.

I actually learn things on this site, but I know whom to listen to. And every time a conspiracy theory starts up, I know that's not what or why something is or isn't the way it is.

Everyone's opinions matter, not just the self appointed experts.

 

If we had the copy of the check register of the checks written and to whom and what for you would see how money was stolen or mis-used by the BOD, EC and President, I would like a copy of the building materials list and cost paid for the HOF building, who paid for the materials, the labor costs to build the HOF Bldg.

There is absolutely no way that building cost that much LEGITIMATLY, for 8600 SqFt When I got similar quotes including travel, lodging, Meals for an Ohio Owned Pole Building builder would be under cost over $1 Million Dollars, building it in Illinois.

The ATA Home office Building, The missing traps, stolen shells from the ATA Shell house, The $20,000 trapgun for the President, Unnecessary trips to the Shot Show and expenses, the Expenses paid to the CHC, BOD, EC, Treasurer, etc to to Satellite Grands, Liquor Tabs, NW wanting to spend $ Thousands of our dollars on testing the 30 yardline targets, Giving Trophies to almost every shooter, untold meetings on our dollar instead of cost saving Webinairs. The ATA President salary, Lynn The Talking Head Gipson, salary in excess of $125,00 plus fringe benefits, insurance, medical Insurance etc, So much money spent that was not needed, especially by EX Deceased ATA President Tom Acklin, when the City Of Dayton Offered Ground just West o0f the Vandalia Location, and a 99 year Lease from Lex Wexner of the Limited, So much was swept under the rug and lined so many pockets ILLEAGALLY. Moving to an NON gun State I could go on and on, just wish I had that Check Disbursment Ledger, all of them, bet there is more than one.

Gary Bryant.............................Dr.longshot

 

Brad, you are not the only one talking about the problems over the last 25 years. Believe it or not the ATA was also saying the same thing. Just read Jim Morris's book Homegrounds, that the ATA is selling on its website. In there he talks about the ATA first mentioning the move, the 70's story you talk about, and the then Ohio Gov. Jim Rhodes going to Vandalia to ask what the State could do to keep them here. Fast forward to the nineties and Morris says the ATA knew as early as 94 that a move was in the cards. But did not admit it in print until 98. His view was that the EC "had their heads in the sand" for the entire 90's.
Maybe the current EC and state delegates should read the ATA's own book.

 

I would like to know what in the way of shooting Registered Trap what is happening at the WRSC May-June-July that would obligate the ATA By Wayne Morris in the above signed document October 2015. lOOKS LIKE OUR prestige LEADER KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT income from registered shooting at the WRSC in May-June-July
2015 but to obligate the ATA to pay lease rate for the Entry Building and all the Camping Spaces, Plus possibly the Vendor Buildings, Which Lynn (the talking Head) Gipson occupies as a vendor, Is there Electric Meters on the Vendor Buildings? There should be.

Gary Bryant...........................Dr.longshot

 

The reason four months are included in any possible deal to lease it is to hold all the shoots normally scheduled in those months. So that, the ATA would be managing them all, or designate another entity, with the ATA securing the lease.

The ATA is only talking about leasing what is necessary for shooting purposes, not the whole park. The vendors already have a deal with IDNR. The metering of any utility is included in the lease arrangement, which includes whether IDNR pays them, and charges in the lease, or if there is separate metering paid directly from the tenant.

Furthermore, I'm sure because of the budget impasse, every utility bill the state is responsible for, is past due. That doesn't mean the utility is going to turn everything off because the state owes them money. The utility knows they will get paid eventually.

 

I'll try to be constructive instead of saying what I really think about some posts!

Fact is, the MOU does not obligate the ATA to pay any lease payments or pay anything at all. Posts that say that are incorrect. Posts that say the MOU doesn't mean much, are probably correct. It was smart to include the longer term in the MOU in case it was deemed necessary in the future, that way it is already documented as being on the table. They can always reduce the term in the negotiations.

All it really does is say both the IDNR and the ATA agree to negotiate in good faith if nothing happens by 4/15.

 

The problem is not with Illinois and never has been . Our organization ATA needs more restrictions on the moves that the E.C. and B.O.D. can make. Also I feel that anyone after they have been a member more than three years continuous should have voting rights. Complete disclosure on all moneys spent, salaries,expenses ect. would be nice. The system is broken and needs fixing It is our organization and the shooters should have a voice.

 

Duffer, maybe you can give us more info on the vendors. I talk to two of the larger ones quite often and as of yesterday they still have no agreement in place with the ATA.

 

I was answering Gary's question, to help you understand, the vendors don't need to go through the ATA, they can make their own deals.

 

It doesn't make any difference who they go through I'm just saying they do not have any agreements in hand for 2016.

 

FlaLagarto posted that he has one. But then again he refused to show the lease.

 

There is a notice posted on the ATA's web site (opening page) that says all camping spots can be rented or leased from the ATA, I would assume this would also include Vendors locations ... (ShootATA.com) might clear up any confusion or maybe not ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The majority of vendors in the buildings were on ten year leases that ended in 2015. They do not have new agreements as they have not received any proposed agreements from anyone.

 

It is my understanding that building vendors have signed extensions but their payment is not due until June 30 and if the WSRC is not open for shooting, the lease extension can be considered null and void.

 

HB - I'm not sure how that works as the two I talk with tell me they have not received the terms or pricing of a continuing lease. The old lease terms do not consider the fact that there are not four events in place anymore. They are surely not going to pay the same amount for what is currently offered.

 

I see problems brewing off in the distance ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I'm still wondering about these vendor agreements. You know the ones the duffer said are in place. The old agreements were for multiple events so doubtful they could carry over without substantial change so I'm wondering what the changes are because my friends still haven't received anything concrete to act on. Are there secret agreements out there?

 

Duffer, FlaLargo, anyone? Could someone post a copy of these vendor agreements that the vendors in the buildings have for 2016. My friends are afraid they must have missed theirs in the mail.

 

Ask HB, he's good with documents.

 

From what has been posted here so far, they seem to leave a lot to be desired. Poorly worded (note the problems posters here are having trying to figure out if the 5,000 persons reference applies to each event, or to total annually). That's important, little things like commas can change the meaning. Also, what is the ramification of the state not meeting their 4 shoots and headcount numbers. Lousy contract if that's not addressed anywhere.

 

The copy that I have of the "CONCESSION LEASE FOR VENDOR SPACE AT THE WORLD SHOOTING AND RECREATIONAL COMPLEX SPARTA, ILLINOIS" only addresses the "Grand American", as far as "events".

Under "ARTICLE 8" of the Vendors Lease Agreement ... "8.4." "Grand American and the ATA Agreement" .... "If, during any year of the term, the Grand American Tournament sponsored by the Amateur Trapshooting Association is not held at the Complex due to the fault or negligence of the Department, the Lessee is entitled to a pro-rata refund of rent paid or a one-year extension of this Lease for no additional rent. If, due to the fault or negligence of the Department, the ATA elects to terminate the ATA Agreement; is terminated for any reason, this Lease may be terminated by the Lessee as of the date of such termination, and the rent payable hereunder shall be pro-rated to the date of such termination with any excess rent paid by Lessee being immediately refunded to Lessee."

"4.4." "Utilities" on the same Lease says ... "The Department will provide, without charge, water, sewer, and electrical service to the Premises. Telephone and all other utility services shall be the responsibility of Lessee.

This line is a fun fact ... "the ATA shall be the sole vendor of targets and ammunition during tournaments scheduled pursuant to the ATA Agreement."

 

I guess what I was asking was where are the new agreements? The two vendors I've talked with have been told by the ATA that they would have something specific for them by a date that has passed. They have had conversations since but as far as I can tell there is nothing specific to go with. No vendor in his or her right mind would consider forwarding an amount anywhere close to what was paid in the past. At least two of the bigger vendors are currently wondering if it makes sense to haul everything out there for 10 or 12 days, seeing they made little to no money with the last AIM event. In my mind the vendor situation is currently a crapshoot at best unless something is going on that only a select few know about.

 

If the folks at the ATA would calm down and cool their jets, consider who else would even want to rent the WSRC and assume all responsibility and liability for whatever other intended purpose ..? The ATA should step back and let the State of Illinois choke on the facility because without a grand they have nothing on schedule (nor do they with the grand, as of yet) ... The facility costs the state XXX number of dollars daily if its being utilized or not so what is the big rush and why would anyone (the ATA) accept a temporary lease or rental agreement that exceeds the amount they could possibly recover , which also has not been established yet ... The attendance is obviously going to be a big factor with the black cloud that has been hanging over head since the facility has been shuttered ... If there are no vendors you might just as well say they will not have much of a shoot being as a lot of people like to wander around aimlessly checking out the goods on display ... The ATA is actually in a position where they can ask for certain things as a condition to accept or reject any proposal that is summited to them for what ever amount of money ... This will be interesting ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

User,

Seems some were posting here agreements with more shoots specified as well as minimum attendance figures? Maybe more than one set of contracts? At least what you posted does show that there is more to the contract to address not meeting the guarantees.

For everyone else, the MOU is nothing more than putting in writing the fact that IDNR and ATA agree to negotiate in good faith if the circumstances described come to be. Maybe Merlo and or Seitz have inside info, but just from what's before us I don't see why ATA would not be planning on starting the negotiations at the same $3 per entry as in the existing terms, probably adjusted for some necessary cleanup etc., but I don't see the ATA having to bail the state out of any debts. Maybe I'm just an optimist.

 

Fully expect the ATA to increase to $5 at least in the championship events and keeping the prelim at $3. Of course they should consider dropping the fee rate on prelim events to get more people shooting them.

 

LadyT, not sure I follow you on that? You saying you'd rather see the IDNR rent fee not treated as a straight pass-thru as it has been in the past? Sure they could do that I suppose.