IS the Cost of Trapshooting killing the sport.

From my point of view it is. Going to cost me $4,000 just to shoot in Tucson this February. Have to really rethink that decision to continue membership in the ATA.

 

Continue your ATA membership, mix your shooting in Tucson with
Some. Of the other smaller and less expensive locations.


Greta c

 

LadyT... does that $4000 cover airfare, motel, meals, shells and entry's?

 

Yes it covers gas, hotel, some meals as half of my meals will travel with me, shells and entry fees. No option money is included. Just the basics of getting there, shooting and eating.

 

How many people and targets does that cover?

 

I would not doubt your figures but that seems like a lot of money to risk unless you are a big gun and expect to get a big return on your investment ... If you have a clinic while your there that could offset the cost, but by now you probably won't be able to find an opening for a field ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You can go camping...go vacation...go play professional foosball...heck STAY HOME.. IDK whatever you do you are going to incurr the cost of living. Hard to attach ALL that to "trapshooting"

 

In this mornings Tampa, Fl. Newspaper there is an article about



In this mornings Tampa newspaper, there is an article about rio de Janeiros stadium due to host this summer's
Olympics..it seems to be broke, no water or electric, just unpaid bills,
Similar to Sparta.
It appears that there are more important things other than shooting & Olympics.

I still have hope for both, I am an avid follower of all sports, naturally I'm
From Phila. And good or bad seasons we root for our teams and that
Includes my feelings for the presently I'll ATA.

GRETA C




Unpaid bills. The amount owed is similar to Sparta and our problems.

 

It covers just one person, me. It also covers the prelim and grand week minus events 13&14. Total targets are 2400 if my count is correct. That is 1300 for the prelim week and 1100 for the grand week.

 

I'm not looking to argue, but that doesn't sound that bad for two weeks plus travel .. I would guess $12-1500 of that is the actual shooting expense. If you have a good time.. enjoy some friends. it's a good thing!!

 

Yes, trap shooting is an expensive sport. Couple that expense with the long duration of your trip and the amount of hotel costs associated with it and you've got yourself an expensive shooting vacation. We all remember the days of $20 (or less) targets and a $3.00 box of shells. Unfortunately they are gone forever.

 

I think in all reality, that the cost of living has gone up so much that the recreational things we do now are not as high on the priority list that allows us to go shooting as much as we would like or can afford.

 

It also could be the difference in locals. If business and industry are
Doing ok, then shooting will be more active. I have been going to
The New Jersey state shoot for over 40 years, and each year it seems
To be bigger and better, and the grounds are constantly improving.
New Yorks shoot the same, better each year. Of course needless to
Say Pa. Now has all new traps and the demand for camping spots
Is huge and the crowds are just as big.
We all know how popular the Cardinal center has become.
It seems that ATA shooting has just changed it's position,
Shooters love and save their money for these shoots.,particularly
When they are closer to home.
The small shoots in PA seem to still be ok, at least the ones we
Attend, again mostly the BIG 50s.
If your income is good, you shoot more, if not and you have to
cut back it's the unnecessary items that have to go.
You shoot less, eat out less,etc.and maybe keep a car for a longer time.
When I started to shoot, shot was $4.00 a bag!

Greta c

 

I think you are mistaken. PA used to be much bigger. The CC is increasing but a large part of the OH shooters put their guns on the shelf in 2003.

 

I may be mistaken, but I don't think so.....
It seemed bigger when we had to shoot and then walk 10 traps to
Our next trap..
And the squadding, classifying,etc have been modernized, along with
Pre squadding.

Greta c

 

Greta, it should be easy to check records about PA, but I find it hard to imagine crowds just as big back when I started going to the PA state shoot back in the 70's. Main reason I think there are less young people taking up the sport now.

 

RJ Stuart site has all the stats. Attendance even in PA are much smaller. PA used to get close to 2000 in the singles alone.

Don't make the bet Greta. You aren't close. Only 1100 last year in the singles.

 

One reason for the reduction in singles shooters if there is one:
The inflexability of management, again you may shoot 100 of the 200 events
But you must pay for 200.
This is a Bubba rule. Now that there is a new manager in Pa I am waiting
To see if there will be any changes.
Then you might see some of the visitors shoot this event.
And......there are plenty of us who cannot shoot 200 or no longer want to.
I feel like I am beating a dead horse over.
Does anyone really think that we enjoy a self imposed none shooting
Day?
There are ways to change everything. Just walk around PSSA
And see sitters on the 200 days.
No one pays for 200 and shoots only half.
The shooters who just shot Pa. Don't you think that some now
Are saving $$$$ to go to the CC the next week, and now the
CC is scheduling more shoots this year. There is only
So much money in a shooters budget.
I am willing to bet Pa will again be bigger!
Just like I believe (maybe foolishly) that the ATA will survive and be
Healed.

Greta c

 

Greta,

You bring up a point that a lot of us have been saying for quite a while.

No Need for the 200 target events. These are only to show how much stamina one has, and while the average age of Trap shooters is growing each year, you would think they would change their line of thinking. Sure, they can host one 200 target event through a large shoot, but no need for as many as most clubs want.

Remember, they can SELL more targets with 200 singles rather than the 100 events. This is probably their line of thinking.

 

Lets all hold hands, sing kumbaya and we all can be healed. I believe...I believe...I believe.

or

Click your heals together 3 times and repeat....there is no place like home.

 

Greta... go to any shoot that Liz cashiers and you will be allowed to shoot 100 targets of a 200 event and only pay for 100.

Just as you stated, that's a Bubba rule.. and a very bad one in my opinion. I've worked with Liz the last few years, and at every shoot we did there were people who only wanted to shoot 100 targets of the 200 bird events.. why refuse them.. bird in the air is money in the pocket of the club. To attempt to punish them by charging them for the 200 birds is insane. It's a button click on the computer.. 10-15 second fix in the records.

 

Average age of ATA shooter is 51 yrs old

Average length of membership is 15 years

90% are male

58% own a computer

37% are life members

44% of ATA shooters shoot Sporting Clays

Information from ATA website from am previous time period

GB....................DLS

 

Based upon some of you recent posts, if you are looking to give your brain a rest from all the conspiracy theories and economics, declining membership of the ATA, maybe start an investigation into why recreational golf has the same demographic problems as the ATA.

During your investigation, pay special attention to the run up in interest in golf in the nineties, and the subsequent decline, that continues today. Then see if you can make any parallels to the two sports.

 

If you are going to be in Tucson, you might just as well take in the Ben Avery Gun club as you journey around the country,can't be to far out of the way if your wondering around aimlessly ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Again gibberish!
Even kindergarten students would not be so silly...we are trying to
Be serious about a problem affecting many, many of us.

By the way have any of you read the Dixie grand program?
Prices seem to be very costly.

I wonder if attendance will be down?

Wait and see?

Greta c

 

I took my 12 year old grandson golfing 9 holes each with cart at a nice golf course Total $32.00!

I took my grandson to practice trap 100 targets each with shells $80.00!

We had a ball doing both, spent a couple hours at both.
Next summer we will do both again, thanks to a good retirement after 40 years of hard work!

 

Lady T,
Your figures seem about right. I went two years ago for the Grand Week only. I got a great deal on my air fare due to my Alaska Airlines credit card. I also got lucky and had some friends that had bought a place south of Tucson that spring and I was able to stay with them for the week. It still cost me right at $3,000.00 for the week. Rental car, Entry Fees, Ammo, gas, food, etc.. Expensive yes, but I sure had a great time. I save my change for several years to help finance the trip. My next fun trap trip will be the Cardinal Classic. I think it will be next year. I am so looking forward to it. Have fun when you are there,

Jim Bradbury

 

Then make sure you take the time to thank God that you can do stuff like this. There are a lot of people in this world that would love to have it so good. Quit your whinning and be grateful. Bulge.

 

I'm quite aware of that Bulge especially since last April when I ended up in a wheelchair and my whole life was upended.

But the question still remains. Is the cost killing the sport.

 

"Is the cost killing the sport." .... NO .... Does it make a good excuse .... yes

If a 'round' of 25 practice targets is about 10 to 12 bucks, for shells and targets, it becomes how many 'rounds' does a person want to shoot, because the "cost" of a single 'round' is affordable to most people.

"Trapshooting" is alive and well, still affordable to most everyone .... the "ATA" is on life-support from self-inflicted wounds, other than "cost".

If "cost" could "kill" anything, there would be very few enjoying worthwhile recreational pursuits. If cheap is the "cost", then cheap is the return.

 

My practice targets run $11-12 a round. ATA is a whole other story. I asked my delegate if it was possible to use a NM or AZ shoot to sub for one of the 2 Zone shoots for State Team consideration. The answer was no. Why did I ask that. Outside of the one range here that throws ATA targets occasionally the next closet range (New Mexico) throwing ATA targets is a 200 mile round trip but it is also a very small club and doesn't have many shoots.. After that the round trip distances run from 512 miles Albuquerque, NM) to 1200 miles (San Antonio) .

Round trip distances to shoot ATA targets

Albuquerque NM 512 miles
San Antonio Tx. 1200 miles
Tucson Az. 625 miles
Next two Zone Shoots for Texas round trip distances.

Amarillo Tx. 876 miles
Waco Texas 1230 miles

 

Then you should address your question as an "ATA" question. Because "Trapshooting" cost gets unfairly lumped into "ATA" cost.

People need to get the message that "Trapshooting" is affordable to most. And STOP discouraging people by making it seem the "ATA" and "Trapshooting" are one and the same ... THEY ARE NOT.

The thread "title" is "IS the Cost of TRAPSHOOTING killing the sport" ... and it should be "Is the ATA killing Trapshooting" ... STOP talking about them as one, that IS "killing the sport".

 

Kind of hard to separate the two since if there is no ATA there is no trapshooting org to set standards and lay down rules for competition. But hey technically you are right but in real life they are connected.

 

ALL Clubs have rules ... many small Clubs NEVER have an "ATA" event, and NEVER adopt their rules.

Many Club rules and "ATA" rules mirror each other ... but that confusing correlation with causation.

The "ATA" needs Trapshooting to exist, Trapshooting DOES NOT need the "ATA" to exist, big difference.

 

That is a true statement but targets counts nationwide wold be down by a considerable number. So who "wins"?

 

In my opinion, and it is an opinion based on being at Clubs talking to people ... the "ATA" hurts Trapshooting much more than it helps at this point.

Let me say this about something that has not been beat to death. There are shooters who WILL NOT shoot registered targets because the scores become public, and then some mental-midgets use those numbers to demean others in a childish way.

The "ATA" has become it's own worst enemy by using tunnel-vision for the elite. So ... in my opinion ... the national target count has already taken a beating, and everyone has "lost".

 

Target counts are down nationwide since Neil's lifetime achievement was implemented. The other issue keeping target counts down is the disaster in Sparta.

At most one of six trapshooters in OH and PA shoot registered trap. There will be an easter shoot in PA shooting for some ham. It is not registered. 500 plus will be there. Moulton in OH just had a shoot in the bitter cold. Non-registered and it was bigger than the handicap at the state shoot of 25 states.

You don't have to implement Neil's narrow angle rules for the nr shoots. The money does not go to buy another $2.1 million dollar building to be owned by a gun hate state or a $20,000 gun for a rich guy from a state without trapshooters.

The money goes to your club.

Trapshooting exists despite the ATA.

 

I agree with the statement that "trapshooting exists despite of the ATA" but I'm not sure what you mean by "target counts are down nationwide since Neil's lifetime achievement was implemented." Then you follow with "At most one of six trapshooters in OH and PA shoot registered trap." Followed by "There will be an easter shoot in PA shooting for some ham. It is not registered. 500 plus will be there.". Are they going to shoot "3 HOLE" targets at this Easter shoot?? Is that what draws them to this shoot or is it the prizes, travel distance, or the fact it is NOT an ATA shoot? I am not trying to start a debate here just confused as to what you are suggesting as to the cost of trapshooting causing or not causing the downturn in trap shooting.

 

It doesn't matter does it. They can throw harder targets without an EC member shutting down the shoot. Ask me if that ever happened?

As to the other non-registered shoots I attend. All the nr shoots try very hard to give more challenging targets. The wobble trap at one of my clubs gets more action than the practice traps. The Dysinger Throw Down threw harder targets and it was bigger than most state handicap shoots.

A shoot not being an ATA shoot? What's the attraction? Tell me you can guarantee the funds will not be used to build a $2.1 million building for the gun hate state vs the shoot that gives money to the Shriners and the choice is easy. Money for the kids and the corrupt bums go hungry...now that's a bonus!

At the nr shoot you wont find a shoot-off that lasts 2 days. Go to any major shoot ties may carry over for the week. Planning on shooting one day. Cant do that if you are tied. Now you have to take off a few extra days work.

Sure you thought it was a 200 bird event. But you are out without 5 more flats of shells.

Very few knowledgeable shooters will argue the impact the easy targets have had on the game. There was that graph Neil had. That seemed to blow up when the real numbers were discovered.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you as to the "attraction" of it being an ATA shoot!!! Calm yourself!!! The original poster asked if the COST of trapshooting is causing the decline in the numbers. My question is since they are shooting non registered targets at this "ham" shoot, are they going to be "3 Hole" targets? Is that the reason there is going to be 500 shooters there or is it - the location, the prizes, the fact that it is not an ATA shoot, the fact that it is 3 Hole targets or the cost to shoot it???

I assume you mean ATA target numbers are trending down since the setting limits changed as well as the move to Sparta for the Grand? How has this changed the number of ATA targets thrown in the Pennsylvania-Ohio area? If the local shoots are still performing at a descent level, why? If they are not, is it the cost of the targets? That is the question in the original post.

 

In 2003 at the time of "the announcement" many of the Ohio and PA shooters (especially OH) put their guns down and never shot another ATA target. Ohioans even boycotted the the last 2 grands in OH. The EC acknowledged they would lose shooters but they had the "build it and they will come" attitude. The new shooters were supposed to make up the difference.

The ties and high scores have helped take the money out of the game. The "weekend warrior" or the old "penalty A shooters from OH" as they were called stopped shooting. They were shooters that had to win on occasion to stay in the game. Now they sit on the sidelines. But they still shoot at the local clubs.

Those "penalty A" shooters were a breed that could hardly afford the game before. Certainly not now. And could never afford a trip to Illinois. Why register target to go to the big shoot if you are not going to the big shoot?

If the original poster is complaining about spend $4k at a shoot then imagine the weekend warrior that only had $2k for the year.

 

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that I think the Leaders of the ATA, (delegates and EC members) are what is hurting registered trapshooting. Years of stupid rules changes, not just the softening of targets, but categories, AA point driven shoots, taking the money out of registered ATA shooting, the two yard reductions not once but twice, not having mandatory reductions and most of all on the hit list moving the grand to Sparta in spite of the members wishes is what is killing trap shooting, not the cost.

I've ran my hunting preserve for 20 years and get hunters, men and women, young and old everyday willing to spend 145 dollars for a 3 hour hunt. It's not the cost you ask it's the service you give that brings people back. ATA shooting is not worth the cost to more and more shooters.

Brad Dysinger

 

I get to talk to a lot of people, many have taken up other sports or turned to social shooting (practice and sporting ) as compared to registered because most say you do not get any return on your investment even if (when) you win, some feel like they are shooting against the Pro's and don't stand much of a chance any way so why bother ... People are getting to the point where they want to shoot or hunt but do not want all of the added expenses associated with the traveling and staying in hotels or motels all the time ... I see several shooters who have quit shooting ATA targets but still shoot on a regular basis with friends and hunt with the same friends a few times a year ... I also know many former shooters who have withdrawn from shooting all together because they simply cannot afford it any more and eating is a priority , some have sold their guns, re loaders and moved on ... The economy effects different people in different ways depending on their particular life style and desires, probably has eliminated some but not all of the shooters who have quit ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Perhaps an individuals personal attitude plays a part in LadyT's original question. Value received for a value given is a consideration whether shooting trap or buying groceries. I began shooting trap about 5 years ago, it seemed there were quite a few shooters starting to preach "the sport is dying" while others were happy with things and just kept on shooting. Seems the whiners and criers won out as 3 nearby clubs quit shooting trap and now shoot games only. "More fun, less cost" they say, "Trap is just not worth the cost" they say. If a person develops a negative mind set about any activity soon "just not worth the cost" becomes a reason........... Larry

 

"quit shooting trap and now shoot games only"

If they "quit shooting trap" ... how do they ... "shoot games only" ????

 

I'm guessing that means quit shooting registered trap and shoot games which do not have all of the added fees attached and waiting all day to get in 100 or 200 targets ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

They quit shooting registered trap and shot non-registered trap.

 

No kidding .... really .... how silly of me. I know how to read .... and "Trap" is MUCH more than "registered". So say it the correct way and STOP lumping it together.

 

Well your reply indicated that you failed to make the connection and got technical. Why are you trying to pick a fight?
Dang.
l.

 

That should answer your question, "this site vs. the other"

 

I suppose what it boils down to is if you can`t afford it ,don`t do it. Nuff said.

 

Ain't that the truth. You would never see anything derogatory about this site or the people on it from that "other one"

Well, maybe one or two. Or a few more, or maybe a couple handfuls.

"Rog, If the little site of deceit & lies is what you like...........what the hell are you doing here? This site is for shooters, not constant whiners like you."

"What a blubbering idiot. I mean seriously, what a stupid blubbering idiot. Stay home.
The rest of us will have a Grand time come August. I give up trying to explain things to the blubbering idiot. Seems he missed the part about the reps from the Governors office making the announcement. But hey, suit yourself. Personally I think we are better off without the blubbering drama queen. I'd bet money he wasn't coming anyhow. One of those who just has to draw attention to poor me. Now go back in your hole."

"Roger C...Please go to your room. Your on the other site with your 3 maybe 4 butt buddies trying to knock this site down with more bs and lies. You are a troll...sadly you give trolls a bad name. You have been outed so many time with your dishonest dealings it's not even funny.You and ollieputz must be twins. You truly are useless but I know you have a home on the other site. Keep your tent pitched there as you are USELESS here!!!"

"Again I wonder if Lady T is who she says she is or is she a blabbering idiot from the dark side trying to stir trouble again?"

"Oh, my bad, they were talking about that little phony site where a hand full of bitter old non shooters have pooled their nickels & set up a place to piss & moan about trapshooting leadership without anyone to disagree with them. I sure hope they don't get tired of being the laughing stock of the internet & close the little place up.........we don't need the "clouds of doom" on this site."

"A POS site that everybody that gets bant from here goes there"

"Laddie" T. Spends too much time at the keyboard to be real. I don't mean constant I mean three page posts full of bullshit that runs in circles. He can't dazzle with brilliance so attempts to baffle with bullshit."

"Considering the devious hateful malcontent's over there, I wouldn't put anything past them."

"Is Lady T Stl Flyn's daughter or son? Or is it kin to Sambo Browne?
Oh, I got it, it's Dr. Longshot's bastard kid."

Such a civil bunch. Nothing like we have here huh?

Good thing this site didn't fold in 30 days as one of the Kool-Aid drinkers predicted. They wouldn't have had the chance to post all these little gems.

 

"pick a fight" ... no ... tired of seeing "registered" Trap drag "Trapshooting" through the mud with it.

There is a small 3 trap Club I shoot at, that is FULL for "League" shoots, and has a hard time getting 3 shooters to shoot "registered". If some people keep telling others that they "quit shooting Trap", it will harm the Club.

PITA also does not deserve to be included in negative "registered" remarks intended for the "ATA". It is NOT too much to ask to be accurate with posts.

 

User, I think the biggest non registered traveling trap league in up in NY, seems strange?

 

Trapshooting locally is the 25 bird from 5 posts from various distances...... there are registered and non registered, there is ATA, PITA and local league. Games here are the Annies, buddies, chip, etc. Not the same at all. User1 knows that, he just likes to play with words. Quit shooting trap and went to games means just that... Larry

 

There you go LadyT .... "Trap" is 5 targets from 5 posts to Larry .... and you tried to tell me he was saying "They quit shooting registered trap and shot non-registered trap." .... See how easy it is for people to get confused like you did.