I sent an e-mail to ATA President Mr.Wayne Morris

I will see if he responds to my questions of giving us ATA Life Members information of the Winter Meeting at Sparta that last week.

Gary Bryant......................Dr.longshot

 

The response if it comes would be interesting but based on prior information coming from the ATA I wouldn't be holding my breath. Wishing you a Merry Christmas

 

Let's Hear it For The Dr.

 

Inquiring minds want to know. But this may be on a need to know basis and the petite bourgeoisie (me included) don't need to know...so they think.

 

Hows that saying go? A picture is worth a thousand words?

Your avatar should be the official logo of the ata.

It's what they should send to anyone that asked any questions. With one click they could save all that typing.

 

The email was passed around the EC and after much laughter was forwarded to me with directions to reply.

So here is the official response.

No!

 

Kastaway: the perfect handle, always adrift w/the current of the waters.

GB......................DLS

 

How many of you have sent a personal e-mail to the ATA President? This proves how transparent the ATA is and if they will communicate with the members. And keep them informed. I now feel the ATA President is not a trustworthy individual,
he could have given a generic answer to all members.

Gary Bryant.........................Dr.longshot

 

Just out of curiosity, how quickly do you demand a response, what has the incoming president done before he takes office to make you think he is untrustworthy, and can't you wait until the minutes are posted on the ATA website?

 

Well it also refers to sending a line out in the water.

Your right, it is perfect, it hooked you LMAO.

 

Gary,
Why didn't you or Joe run for delegate this year in Ohio ? The position was open. Same question to your Arizona buddies Bill and Rodger that position was open. Tom V. could have run in Pa. against their delegate. You want answers from the ATA president,and at the same time say hes not trustworthy because he hasn't answered an E-mail. I think Kastaway had the official response wrong I think the answer was Hell No.
Tom

 

Is that an unreasonable request from a life member? Do we all need to run for office to get any information.?

 

Jersey.
Your missing the point it is not an unreasonable request, but if he doesn't get the answer he wants or they didn't discuss the issues important to HIM ( setting targets angles speed etc etc.) the bashing will begin. Why not contact their delegate see if he or she has heard any news from the meeting.
Tom

 

Why would anyone run against the PA delegate? He did a great job digging into your GAH champ of two years ago claiming targets he never shot.

 

Of course it is not an unreasonable request. And if you were participating in the forum or looked at past posts none of the delegates are in the know either. Unless of course you have information to the contrary but you obviously don't.

As to the setting of targets........is questioning that an unreasonable response considering the trend since 1996? Do you have to run for office to question that also. Who does the delegate represent if we are all delegates? How does that work?

The doc and I disagree on quite a few things but "bashing" is usually a hateful word for anyone that has an opinon that disagrees with the friend of an EC member. Makes me a basher too.

 

Why would anyone talk against the Pa.delegate?

He is hard working, conscience, and on top of everything going on

In the entire state.

And a heck of a shooter and a wonderful neighbor..

IT IS A PLEASURE TO KNOW HIM.

Greta c

 

Jersey,
Have you ever contacted your delegate with concerns about your state? If I had a question that truly was a concern, he or she would be the one I would contact,I would not depend on any one this thread for an answer. And yes I have seen threads where hateful words are used,Gary called the new President untrustworthy his words not mine is that fair just because he didn't answer an e-mail in according to him (Gary) in a timely manner 2 days if that. Have you ever done the same ? does that make you untrustworthy?
Tom

 

Yes I have. And to continue with your rant it appears none of the EC told the ATA delegates that the HOF was to be owned by the state of Illinois. I suppose that answers the question about trustworthiness.

I did not need to send an email to him. I already had my answer. Did not take two more days. Considering the records of these guys why would it take that long?

If you have more information to the contrary this is an open forum.....but you have added nothing. Just used a hateful word like basher.

Merry Christmas

You are up to 3 posts now.

 

Slow down Jersey,why do you consider my comments as a rant? I just questioned Gary's comments about the new Prez, Its seems if he is truly concerned about change run for delegate. I will repeat in his state Ohio there was an election in June why didn't he run for the position and try to get the other Central Zone delegates to fix what he considers broken. not a rant just the facts.
Merry Christmas to you also.
Tom

 

Of course.

Why should he? What is wrong with the Ohio delegate? We cant all be delegates. Please look up the Shaw and Thompson threads. Do I have to run too? How about Flyer? Only the delegate gets an opinion. That worked on the worn out site......not here.

If you don't want to read opinions then go elsewhere.

 

The only problem I ever had is when I shot on his squad he kicked my butt.

 

Jersey,
Lets get one thing straight I never said anything about the Ohio delegate. If you want change do something about it. Trust me he will be on Gary's poop list when he doesn't answer an e-mail from him. So to be in tune with this site everyone has to agree with your or the other posters opinions, if not I should go else where? The delegates are elected as the voice of the shooters in their state, no matter how many shooters, you have to give the Mr,Porter credit he did what his shooters wanted.
Tom

 

And no one said you did. But you did imply that if Doc expected to have an opinion he should run against him.

As per Porter and his gang of no shooter states, his actions proved it matters little who the delegate is from OH or any other state with a significant amount of trapshooters. When the state with 25 shooters has the same vote as the state with 2500 the system does not work. Bottom line it will significantly hurt the ATA.

Porter hurt the ATA and trapshooting.

Not my site.....and as you would see if you had more than 4 posts there many posters that disagree.

 

Isn't that the same way the US Senate works? Isn't that the form of gov't the ATA is modeled after?

 

I followed up my E-mail to ATA President Wayne Morris requesting an answer to what was taken place at the ATA Winter meeting in Sparta, via a personal phone call but had to leave a message of the above. I also asked that minutes of the meeting be posted to the ATA Minutes. I believe that was a reasonable request, if not fulfilled the ATA President cannot be a trusted individual. Who better to ask questions to than our ATA President. I do not call that bashing, what is happening is the ATA EC & BOD are bashing it's membership with lack of information.

Gary Bryant................................Dr.longshot

 

Why can't you wait until the minutes are posted, like everyone else? If Morris doesn't reply to your demands, that makes him untrustworthy? He hasn't even taken the position yet.

Can anyone tell Gary and I what the lag time usually is from the meetings, to the postings?

 

Tom I was not in a good physical condition to STUMP for delegate as having my LEFT FOOT Amputated 4/14/2015 and confined to a wheelchair for approx. 4 months, I just got my Permanent Prosthesis 11/12/2015. But an E-Mail to our ATA President deserved an answer to the MEMBERSHIP he is supposed to represent. I gave him sufficient time for a response, so I called him personally and left a message to post minutes of the WINTER MEETING to the ATA Minutes Website.
To keep us members posted what is happening before it FALLS TO PIECES under us.

Gary Bryant........................Dr.longshot

 

Earth to Duff!
You have posted like an EC member that is way out of touch. A lot of us trapshooters need to schedule our larger vacations. We need campsites and motels. The vendors need notice as well. And you publicly posted that you do not understand this?

I was considering taking the kids to Illinois just once. When the minutes are posted tell someone else. I have my reservations. Not in Illinois.

 

For the civics challenged the House of Representatives is the house of the people. It exists so the people have a more equal representation. The form of government used by the ATA is a rule by minority. Rhode Island and its 60 shooters have as much power as PA. Leonidas has problems understanding govt as well.

Duff.......the ATA is not always being booted from its home grounds. This situation is a bit different don't you you think?

 

Yeah, that's great, now back to my questions. Isn't the ATA modeled after the US Senate? What is the normal lag time? I understand some people are anxious to know to make plans, but of the three of you, none of you are going anyways. If you don't know the answers, making snarky comments to someone trying to learn what is going on, doesn't exactly make you look any smarter.

 

Earth to Duff again. You don't know me. You don't haul around neighborhood kids to shoots. I can get my vacations around any date. I need to know when those are. I dont give a rats ass now when the minutes are published. Too late.

 

Duff...strangely you posted

That is the problem. The House of Representatives is the House that represents the people or in this case the shooters. That is the part the balances the govt. This is sixth grade stuff Duff. Read up.

 

Duff.......You got it right. Why should someone from a smaller area help pay for the larger population get what they want with nothing left over for the littler States.

FG .... I have NO problem with understanding how government works. Thats why there is a SENATE to KEEP a more populous area from hoarding the benefits deserved by all of the citizens which in this case is the ATA membership as a WHOLE.

dadgotkids......like everyone else (no one is special) we have to wait till Jan for more information from the ATA.

 

Here, I will type slower, I understand how the US Republic works, I'm trying to verify if the ATA works like the Senate only part. Or, is the ATA modeled after a version of ancient Rome, that had different periods of rule, with varying Senate powers. In other words, what is the power structure?

As far as what the normal lag time is, I will use as an example: If I go to the Dr.'s office and he says they need to run some tests, and the results usually take a week give us a call then. Well, I'm not going to call the next day. There is a normal lag from the meeting to getting the minutes in order and post them. In this case I would think it would be a priority to get the message out to the membership. So, I'm asking for what is the norm. But of course this is all coming from someone that can't understand why it takes the ATA, in this day and age, at least two weeks to post registered scores.

 

This is trapshooting.....not natural resources.

Name one in reference to trapshooting.

Is it January now? Is that the date? Where did you read that? What decision is in the minutes that will be published in January?

The SCTP did not wait. Neither have several vendors. Dadgotkids did not wait. The pistol shooters are making other plans.

Anyone need to know why?

 

Maybe the bigger states haven't been able to do anything, because of the power is spread equally among all states and provinces?

I really don't get the reference to an anchor baby, what advantage did the ATA get, if that was the plan? I don't really know why the HOF wouldn't open when they are finished, just like the other buildings are still open.

 

Equally? There are more states without trapshooters of any significance than with trapshooters. How is it you have posted 130+ times on the forum and not know that? Add all the shooters that shot in the state handicap championships that are represented by the EC and you would not come up with a big shoot. The power is with the states with almost no shooters. Your state is hurt by this.

The anchor baby is the HOF. The building that the delegates supposedly did not know was to be owned by the state of Illinois. The $2.1 mil empty horse barn.

 

Jersey,
Post # 5 How many more till my opinion counts?
Tom

 

If the ATA took into consideration of number of members who do not attend the grand compared to the number of members who do attend they would have to see there is absolutely no need for there to even be a grand not only not in Sparta, Illinois but no place else either ... The days of the grand are long gone and the Satellite grands all over the country have siphoned off many people who may of attended at one time but do not see or feel the need any longer ... If they based it on percentages why even bother other than to provide a big party for the EC, ED and some of the BOD at the members expense , oh and the meeting ... The ATA is hurting the Members, that is why in turn the Members are hurting the ATA by not attending and getting Mooched by the local retailers ( (except WalMart) and doing all of the extra traveling on a daily basis ... The Big Guns will show up under most conditions to reap a harvest and promote their side jobs as instructors (clinics) after all is said and done, if they only break even they are winners and that is not a bad thing ... The best thing that may of happened to the grand and the ATA is all of the drama in Sparta and the State of Illinois if they only realize it, use some common sense and logic and move on ... Make the grand special like it once was, make it an invitational and have all of the winners shoot against all of the winners, then make the EC, and some of the BOD pay their own way if they are going to attend ... No doubt the ED will find a way to make it business so his expenses will be paid, but then again why ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

DUFF: It is guys like you that misconstrue every member who asks for information, no demand to Wayne Morris was made, just a question from a Life Member, and for other members.

Gary Bryant...........................Dr.longshot

 

First of all, I don't think you know what the word misconstrue means. Secondly yes, your OP does make demands. Third, I speak for myself, not a "pre paid life member" or a yearly member.

 

So you are not a member of ATA?

 

Can't find my icon for the guy eating popcorn.. Oh well

 

I still am sorry that the Industry class was eliminated.

The competation was fairer.

Trapshooting used to be a hobby, no longer.

Greta c

 

I differ from this one. When the Grand paid out big money in the Handicaps and it was located in Ohio people made it a point to shoot sufficient targets at the smaller clubs in order to qualify. When ATA policies took the money out of the game and turned it into a giant trinket shoot in the middle of nowhere everything suffered. The system will remain broken no matter where the shoot is held!

 

ditto Greta !

 

Come on now, when did the Industry Class do anything to make the game more fair? Maybe back around WWI?

 

I wouldn't know about ww1, but I do know about fairness.
If you have the time and lots of money to chase points, it's one thing,
But if you have to work, like an average shooter it is tough
To achieve the what is needed to keep up with the chasers.
Also age and health count.
Greta c

 

Greta,

That sounds great in theory, but has nothing to do with what the Industry Class actually was; for at least the last several decades of its life. My point being that few of what you call the "chasers" would have been considered Industry Class.

 

Let's look back at the industry class a little. As I recall much of it consisted of industry reps like Amerigo, John Muir and others who received a salary from the ammunition companies. It was based on the honor system and relied heavily on self-declaration. Today, several top shooters are obviously sponsored in part by both ammunition companies and manufacturers and under the old rules would have been encouraged to enter the Industry Class.

I suppose that's the issue that Greta is referring to!

 

Oleolliedawg, The Ind. class was not allowed to play any of the money purses. So they did not compete with the amateur shooters.I'm talking major shoots, not small local shoots. The Ind. rep's only shoot between them selves. I could see eliminating the trophy's for them as it was a lot of cost for very few competitors.

I told the ATA many years ago that the AA points were a mistake. No one listened, they killed the small clubs with them. To many chased them and did not support the small local clubs. How many clubs have stopped registering targets because of poor attendance. Between rising costs and poor direction of the ATA our game is in trouble and we are stuck with trying to get the very people that created the problem to fix it. Not very comforting is it. Roger C.

 

Yes, that they did and it did create some separation between amateurs and professionals. What would happen if you told Harlan he must shoot industry class and not allowed to play the money?

Knowing John Muir with his ability in his heyday we weren't upset when he declared Industry!

 

I should have mentioned that all instructors and trap shooting teachers
Should be industry. Just my feeling. Making $$$, competing with
Students, but, I was always told that the real secrets of
Trapshooting are never told and kept that way
But, what do I know. Maybe I missed by never taking taking
Lessons but I was too busy and had no time, I should have made time.

Greta c

Greta c

 

Yeah, that's great, but it is something new and much more encompassing than what industry class was.

There is no point in pining for the old industry class as it was really just an extra cost and not something that prevented many of the "chasers", "pros", whatever you want to call them, from competing against the rest of us.

 

Back in the day many (most) if not all the top shooters had some kind of sponsorship and there was not much controversy over them shooting for the money at the major shoots, it was expected and accepted, if you thought you could beat them on a certain day you played the money, if you played the money on a whim and were not in top form you usually contributed to the top shooters purse. Just the way it was.

 

I wonder just how much sponsorship exists today
I see a few shooters with corporate names on equipment and shirts, but
Nothing like it used to be.
Or.......am I missing something?
I also do not see reps.at the larger shoots. They always were around
Giving samples, making sure you were shooting the correct loads for
Your liking.

Greta c

 

oleolliedawg, The year before ending the industry class, the ATA had no problem sending me a letter telling me that I must shoot industry class from here on. I manufactured machines and was a Remington distributor of ammo. I never questioned it I just quit playing the money.

The main problem with all of the satellite grands is many shooters only have a short window of time due to bad weather to shoot. With all of the satellite grands available and zone shoots and state shoots even the shooters that were not chasing the AA points had many choices to choose from than a small local shoots. Many of the small local clubs lost attendance, and shooters. We lost many small clubs due to lack of attendance. The small local clubs were sacrificed for the larger shoots, I'm sure the fee for holding those shoots was involved in the decision . Roger C.

 

Didn't that Dysinger guy compete in the industry class? If it was so bad why did he post we should bring it back?

 

Did he say it should come back in the form it actually existed 20 to 30 years ago? I can't believe he thinks that accomplished much.

Remember those old ads from a shell company showing all the grand American hardware won by Kalsow(sp) and Tomnitz?

Note that Leo, Kiner, stafford,etc, etc were not in that. Yep , it might have covered Roger C , and others directly employed in industry, but not the top shooters not directly employed

 

In most sports, if you receive any sponsorship you are not considered amateur. So lets quit calling it the Amateur Trapshooting Association. Just call it The Trapshooting Association.

 

And if you make your living teaching?
And not in public schools!

I guess the trapshooting assn would be appropriate...any comments?

Greta c

 

There has been much quibbling over the years over who should be classified AMATEUR or PROFESSIONAL in our association. It was thought that anyone earning a living either through their shooting or providing shooting clinics should not be classed as an amateur but should be in a professionasl class. This discussion was like beating a dead horse, "NOTHING HAPPENED" and probably never will until we as members of the ATA assert ourselves and make rules for us and have them enforced. Just the way it is.

 

The definition of what constitutes an amateur and professional in sports has changed since Spalding's Sporting Rules Book of 1886.

"An amateur is any person who has never competed in an open competition, for money, or under a false name, or with a professional for a prize or wherever gate money is charged, nor has ever at any time taught, pursued or assisted at athletic exercises for money, or for any valuable consideration. But nothing in this definition shall be construed to prohibit the competition between amateurs for medals, cups or other prizes than money."

That same year this article appeared in Sporting Life:

REFORM NEEDED
Why Should Not Amateur Shooters Protect Themselves
​

The recent trap-shooting tournament at Cincinnati, notwithstanding the extensive preparations, was but poorly attended by amateur shooters. This has caused considerable comment and many theories have been aired as the reason for this state of affair! The Forest and Stream, however, we think, fairly hits the nail on the head in its editorial comment, in which it concludes: ''It is because amateur shooters know they have no chance against professional shooters like Teipel, Stice and a few such men, who carry off 99 per cent, of the purses and prizes, and who are permitted to enter without any handicap whatsoever. Why should an amateur shoot against a man like Teipel, who makes his living now attending such tournaments? It would be more advantageous for the amateur to play at a "square" game of faro. Any amateur who will enter against such men proves himself a "sucker" (to use a vulgarism) of the weakest type. But these amateurs outnumber the professionals 1,000 to 1. Let them rise in their might and insist on barring such pot-shooters, and thus exterminate the injustice which prevents trap-shooting becoming a most popular out-door amusement."
( SPORTING LIFE, August 4, 1886, page 7 )

This subject has been debated and argued since at least the 1870's. Shooters like Capt. Adam H. Bogardus, John L. Brewer, Annie Oakley and J. A. R. Elliott were to be classed as professionals but usually were not, with the exception of Elliott.

DIFFERENT KINDS OF AMATEURS
Shooting For Cash and Against Professionals do Not Make a Wing Shot a Pro.​

It is hard, very hard, to tell just what an amateur really is just now. Everyone seems mixed on the subject, and the man who cries there are no amateurs, is not altogether wide of the mark.
Take the following as examples of what two prominent authorities think. The Sun of Feb. 17 says:
"Quite an interesting controversy has arisen over the question as to what constitutes an amateur pigeon shot. It is argued that both Work and Thompson are professionals since they contended against Fulford for money."
Answering this the Forest and Stream tells as follows what it thinks an amateur is:
"This question of what constitutes an amateur or a professional was settled years ago.
Somewhere about 1873 it was decided that professional shooters comprised those who practiced shooting as a means of gaining a livelihood. This decision has never been altered or disputed. This would class as professionals Brewer, Carver, Bogardus, Annie Oakley, Budd, Elliott and a few others who shoot for a livelihood, either on the stage or at the trap. So far as E. D. Fulford is concerned he is an amateur in every sense of the word. Mr. Fulford holds a position with the construction department of the American Telegraph and Telephone Company, and attends strictly to his business during the working season. When the frozen ground compels him to take a vacation he amuses himself by shooting pigeon matches. These are bare facts, and on the strength of them we should like to know by what process of reasoning he is classed as a professional. It must be remembered that the rule governing athletics do not govern pigeon shooting; hence the fact of Fulford having competed against professionals does not make him a professional. We claim that E. D. Fulford, George Work, L. S. Thompson, W. B. Smith are all in one class, and that is the amateur class, and that so long as none of them derive a livelihood from shooting they can be placed in no other class."
( SPORTING LIFE, March 4, 1893, page 9 )

In 1907, Elmer E. Shaner, manager of the Interstate Association (forerunner of the A.T.A.) who directed of every major trap shooting tournament, settled this dispute by issuing the following ruling.

SHANER’S DECISION​

Amateur standing as defined by Manager Shaner means what it says, per his decision, rendered without delay, over the recent Philadelphia protest. The case was laid before him as follows: John Doe attends a target tournament in the interest of a local sporting goods house and competes as an amateur. A protest is lodged as to his amateur standing and his firm states that when John Doe sought employment the desired salary was reduced $3 and 100 shells per week included instead. Is John Doe an amateur or professional?
Mr. Shaner considers that the acceptance of 100 shells under the circumstances constitutes John Doe a professional and that were he to attend an Interstate tournament he would be obliged to class him as a manufacturer’s agent. Such an arrangement of furnishing shells would, in Mr. Shaner’s estimation, provide a loophole by which the unscrupulous could evade Interstate conditions

In 1913 the Interstate Association allowed the shooters to vote on proposed changes to the sport and decisions were made in the best interests of the amateur shooter. The Professional Singles and Doubles events were removed from the Grand American Handicap program and professionals were barred from competing in the GAH event.

WORK WELL DONE​

Trap Shooters should read thoroughly the report in another column of the annual meeting of the Interstate Association, and the important legislation that this organization has enacted for the improvement of the sport. They will find that the Interstate officials have pondered the subject carefully and thoroughly and that they have used their many years, of experience in this sport to the benefit of the amateur shooter. Some of the changes in the shooting code are radical; some of them have been foreshadowed by the trend of affairs in shooting in recent years. All of them, however, are marked by an evident intention of the Interstate to consider the desires of the amateur shooters and not their own inclinations. This was plainly apparent in their disposition of the three important changes that have been discussed for some months in "Sporting Life."
The shooters were requested a month ago to give their opinions on the subject, in other words, to vote upon the suggested changes. Their will, as expressed in this vote, was announced at the meeting as being opposed to changing either the standard shooting distance, the lightening of the loads, or the lengthening of the distance of throwing targets. Some of the Interstate officials had decided opinions in regard to some of these changes, but they waived them out of respect to the vote of the amateur shooters, for whom necessarily all legislation is made. The Interstate officials also showed a strong disposition to do away with all added money at tournaments by the Association and substitute therefore trophies. It was finally agreed that it was best to "creep before walking" and that the matter should be virtually left to the option of the shooters for this year in order to obtain an accurate line upon their desires. The idea in this was to place trap shooting more nearly on a strict amateur basis. Sweeping changes were made in the conduct of the Grand American Handicap. The event was first moved back to September, thus making it what it indicates in name and what it should be in fact, the climax of the shooting season. With this accomplished it was easy to plan a championship for State winners, and other events that would work up to a climax.
The professional element in this tournament was also virtually eliminated, the professional single and double championships being stricken out of the program and representatives also being prohibited from competing in the Grand American Handicap event. In every action the Interstate officials showed that they were keenly alive to the best interests of the sport, and under their guiding hand it is safe to say that it will reach the greatest heights of prosperity. The Association is in good hands, the officials being men of high repute in trap shooting, of great knowledge of the sport and indefatigable workers, as were the men who preceded them. On the whole the outlook for a good season in 1914 could not be improved, and it is also certain that when the end of that year rolls around the sport will be on a firmer footing than ever before.

The Interstate Association Board of Directors met and as reported in December 1916, passed the below resolution regarding professionals:

By resolution, the following definitions, defining an amateur and a professional trap shooter, were adopted :
"Any shooter not dependent upon his skill as a trap shooter as a means of livelihood, either directly or indirectly, or in part or in whole, including employee of manufacturers of, or dealers in, firearms, ammunition, powder, traps, targets and other trap shooting accessories, and who does not receive any compensation, or concessions, monetary or otherwise, or allowance for expenses or trap shooting supplies from such manufacturers or dealers, shall be classed as an amateur."
"Any shooter, including employees of manufacturers of, or dealers in, firearms, ammunition, powder, targets, traps and other trap shooting accessories, who receives his salary or any portion of his salary, or any expenses of any kind for use in trap shooting, or rebate on the market price of such articles, as compensation for the promotion of the sale or advertisement of any such products handled by such manufacturers, shall be classed as a professional."

In 1927 the A.T. A. devised a rule to allow past professional shooters to return to amateur status:

​

Leaders of the Amateur Trapshooting Association had been protecting amateurs from shooting against professionals for decades, however in 1958, ATA rules permitted "pros" to return to amateur status after only 6 months of leaving the employ of a manufacturer. As you know, Professionals eventually became Industry Class shooters and finally ATA officers and directors removed all protection for the majority of its membership . . . . . . the amateur shooters.

​

Enjoy Our History!

 

Great stuff History Buff. Thanks for the work.

By the rules of 1958 all of the Bob Allen girls would have been industry. In 1916 all of the EC and BOD would also have been considered industry.

 

Technically any and all of the "Instructors" or shooter who offer clinics are or should be classified as a Professional according to the way the rules read ... That being the case they should shoot against each other for the money they play in a separate purse (jack pot) or any and all options ... Obviously the system is broken or these shooters would be classified as Professional, Industry, or any other name you want to use ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Hell, Bill, what part of the ATA is not broken??

 

Somewhere in the post by History Buff, It must say an amatuer must declare him self a professional. I believe most of the rules for being a pro were removed and the self declaration was instituted. I was surprised when I received the letter, but I never questioned it. I must have scared them. Before the year was out they did away with the class. (HA HA). Roger C.

 

We all should thank our history buff for his knowledge and willingness to
Share it with us.
Happy new year Kenny r.
Please let us see you around, maybe at Pine Belt or Pine Valley this spring?

Hope so.

Greta c

 

History Buff truly amazes me at times, I look forward to reading anything and everything he posts ... Happy New Year Kenny ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Kenny, Like the others here, I, too, enjoy all your postings. It's so nice to read about some of the history of trapshooting and re-live the past highlights of our sport through your eyes.... Thank you very much, and Happy New Year.... Dan

 

Thank You History Buff for being such a good friend throughout the years !

You and I still miss our old friend Lynn dearly.

 

And Happy New Year to all of my friends on Americantrapshooter.com.

As you may know, I have a passion for our history and share it every chance I get.

Some say they don't care a bit about the past. That is, until I start talking, or place an old target or trap in front of them. I've caused the toughest characters to look and lean forward to here what I have to say. They just never knew they were interested. I did!

The past week I've been updating my file on Charles Portlock, of Boston, the fellow credited by Capt. Adam H. Bogardus with introducing glass-ball shooting to the U.S.A. about 1866. After returning home from a Christmas visit with my oldest daughter and family in Virginia, I received a wonderful phone call from a nice lady near Boston, MA. She took a picture of a headstone that had a full-sized dog (Setter) and full-sized shotgun on top. She Googled the name of the person resting below and found a story I wrote about him and then Googled my name and found contact information. I hope to update that report I wrote on Mr. Portlock soon.

I really receive more enjoyment than I give. I hope to visit the Boston area someday and visit Mr. Portlock's grave myself. A couple years ago I visited with Ansley H. Fox, the gunmaker. who died August 15, 1948, nearly a year before I was born. What a story I have to tell about him and I'm talking about his other notable achievements other than the Fox shotguns and the Philadelphia Arms Company. Did you know that he once worked for Winchester Repeating Arms Company and shot under the "nom de plume" of "Winchester?" Or that he won the Continuous Match Event held on the roof of Madison Square Garden in New York City? And his other inventions absolutely floored me.

You see I'm somewhat fascinated with the lives of the old shooters (and gun clubs, tournaments, trophies, targets, traps, etc).

My dearest Greta: Someday I'll sit down and tell you and Jack about a young lady shooter who hailed from Lancaster, PA who became Mrs. Louis Vogel abt 1910, and moved to Detroit, Michigan. She was a notable lady shooter, heralded as one of the best wing shots in America, often defeating men shooters. She became the first and only woman member of the Westy Hogans in the teens, and in those old pictures of Westy and wife, she was "Nan Hogan" in those photos. She too, shot off the roof of Madison Square Garden and was the Michigan State Women's Champion at least 6-times. While not credited with being the first Grand American Women's Champion the year ladies were officially invited to compete at the G.A.H. and trophies provided for them, she will always be given that accolade by me. There's certainly an interesting story behind that tournament event.

Flyersarebest may be interested to know that she was once the Women's Live-Bird Champion of the world.

I apologize for my failure to stay on topic with the Doc's original post regarding his email to ATA President Wayne Morris. I just can't seem to keep my mouth shut about our wonderfully amazing history.

Enjoy Our History!

 

No problem History Buff, I enjoy reading your knowledgable threads.

Gary Bryant.......................Dr.longshot