The MAIN reasons ATA participation has fallen (Can You Handle the Truth?)

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by GW22, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Thoughtful shooters realize that many factors contributed to reduced ATA membership which had little or nothing to do with the ATA or the EC's stupid decisions. I'll list the MAIN ones for you below. *** DON'T PANIC -- I'm not telling anyone how to feel -- you're allowed to be intelligent enough to understand these truths and still hate the ATA. You can even keep poking needles into your Neil Winston voodoo dolls. It's OK. ***

    1) EROSION OF AVG. WORKING MAN'S INCOME: Trap shooting is costly and good paying factory jobs with decent benefits are now the exception. A few decades ago, it was common for a man with average intelligence and skills to go straight from high school into a typical factory job and, just a few years later, be comfortably supporting a wife & kids, own a decent home and a nice car and still have money left over for savings and trap shooting. Many common union jobs were more lucrative still. For example, a good friend of mine had 10 siblings yet his dad comfortably supported the 12-person family with a union factory job, despite being a big drinker. But nowadays many men have bachelors degrees, plus the wife works full time, and they still can't live as we'll as the guy who spun lug nuts on at the Ford plant in 1965 while his wife stayed home with the kids.

    2) THE RISE OF COMPETING SHOOTING SPORTS: The biggest hit came from Sporting Clays, which features a more social format than trap and is generally more welcoming of new shooters. It is also better practice for hunters than is trapshooting. There are also many forms of pistol and rifle shooting which did not exist a few decades ago and these all compete for the diminishing disposable dollar of the average American. Just a few years ago you could go .22 plinking literally all day for less than the cost of shooting a single 100-bird trap event. It's still relatively inexpensive.

    3) CULTURAL SHIFT AND DEMONIZATION OF GUNS: When I was a kid, we hardly knew any families who DIDN'T own a gun and most people who lived outside big cities hunted at least occasionally. Growing up there was a .22 rifle leaning in the corner next to our back door, a revolver in the kitchen cupboard and a 12 ga. shotgun above my parent's bedroom closet every single day of my childhood. If we had company over, they walked right past the .22 rifle to hang up their coats in the hall closet (which incidentally held a 30-06 deer rifle and a 12 ga goose gun). The revolver and shotgun were ALWAYS loaded and nobody ever gave it a second thought. In fact during my entire childhood I don't remember a single adult guest ever mentioning the immediate accessibility of the family guns. Conversely, nowadays when you host a birthday party for your kid it isn't uncommon for the other kids' parents call before RSVPing and ask for assurance that your home contains no firearms. They literally will not allow their kids on the property of a gun owner. The implication, of course, is that guns are bad and gun owners are necessarily irresponsible. Gun owners are to be systematically ostracized from decent society. Many public school teachers initiate this brainwashing by indoctrinating children to help stigmatize gun ownership. Guns = evil.

    4) EXPLOSION OF COMPETING ENTERTAINMENT AND SPORTS OPTIONS: Kids these days are bombarded with things to do. Many barely go outside to play, much less go shooting or hunting or anything else which might naturally lead to an interest in trapshooting. Technology plays such a gigantic role in young people's lives that few of us over 50 even grasp how much time they spend on it. "Human interaction" is greatly brought to them by electrons via 5G. Before iPhones and iPads distracted our kids, TV took it's toll on outdoor activities like trap. Adults have more options too and most of them play with their phones more than a 15 year-old boy plays with his ding dong. They have a virtual "life" and things like trapshooting are far removed from their little touch-screen world.

    Ignoring that factors such as these played a huge, primary role in the reduced participation in ATA trapshooting is simply denial of reality.

    -Gary
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
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  2. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Mega Poster Founding Member

    Gary, I generally believe all of what you're telling us except #1. There's plenty of disposable out there for educated people with good jobs. Sporting Clays courses in our area are full of young professionals who always seem to have an extra $40/100 while driving BMW's and renting golf carts. The local casino had it's best Dec. on record. Try and get a table at an upscale restaurant weekends in our area where an hour wait is not unusual. Even my local bar/restaurant is jammed during the week on Specials nights!
     
  3. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney HOF Muscoda Gun Club Past Wisconsin Director Founding Member HOF Muscoda Gun Club

    Gary I feel that those reasons are correct, even #1. At least in my state. Now that gas prices are down the middle class will have more disposable to play with. But we know those prices won't stay down come spring. I think the biggest is #3. This keeps a lot of the new youth shooters away because of parents not wanting let their kids to be around guns. Even in the rural areas youth hunting is down.
     
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  4. History Seeker

    History Seeker A NoBody Founding Member Official Historian

    Where I had moved to in South Carolina, our club would see an influx of Trapshooting kids, but when they tried 5 stand and sporting clays, that's the last we saw of them on the trap or skeet fields.

    Our old club in NY converted to all Sporting Clays and 5 stand from a slowly dying trap and skeet club. Today they are a major club on the SC and 5 stand circuit.

    As stated, Sporting Clays is much more social, and I believe this to be a main factor with most today.

    Dave Monahan
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  5. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Ollie, I hear you -- a goodly percentage of educated people do still have a decent amount of disposable income. But I specifically said the "working man" in #1, which is the mass that carried trapshooting in it's heyday. Such folks still comprise much of ATA participation even today, although many of them are retired or close to it.

    The problem with attracting the educated people in higher numbers are #2, #3, and #4.

    -Gary

    PS: Easy with that casino stuff. I own some gaming stocks and the industry isn't exactly booming.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
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  6. Smokintom

    Smokintom Mega Poster Founding Member

    #1 ????? Last Summer there was a help wanted ad in the local paper. Don`t remember who was hiring but the add stated that you had to have a minimum of a Bachelor`s Degree to apply. Starting pay was $9.00 and hour !!! What an insult.
     
  7. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    OK Tom, so you work for 8 hours and make $72 and after taxes you might be able to buy a flat of Estates... if you find them on sale. So what's the problem -- just live in a tent, don't eat, and you can go shoot some ATA!

    Damn that Neil Winston!

    -Gary
     
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  8. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

    You can't argue with any of that. Well just one little thing.

    Gary, after you moved this post and added the extra paragraph at the top I added the "one little thing"
    I don't HATE the ATA. They can do whatever they want. I think they were stupid for making the changes they did but I don't hate them.

    #1 did it to me. I wasn't married when I started. The mills were open and I spent every extra cent on buying components, shells,(Fed papers) travel( 5 different state shoots) and just pulling the trigger every chance I got. EVERY CHANCE I GOT! Nothing was more important than shooting. After I got married my wife supported my habit. She used to enjoy going to the shoots. Her question usually was, "Where are you guys shooting next weekend?" 8,000-10,000 combined registered targets per year and shooting leagues 3 nights a week was no big deal.

    Then the mills closed.


    Flyersarebest, But I'm still a Trap shooter.
     
  9. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Sure Flyers, I wasn't implying that everyone who gripes about the EC hates the ATA. I mean how could anyone not think the EC did some stupid things? But by far the worst sin of all is that they never seem to learn. The best example is how the EC let a blatant 18-yard cheater steal the top title and STILL didn't eliminate 18 yard caps which makes such cheating infinitely more possible. Completely outrageous, and demoralizing to honest contenders at the Grand and fair-minded trapshooters everywhere.

    Nonetheless, this special brand of stupidity and EC hard-headedness merely accelerated the demise of ATA shooting a bit -- it wasn't a primary cause. People can make dumb decisions and not be to blame for everything, right?

    -Gary
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
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  10. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney HOF Muscoda Gun Club Past Wisconsin Director Founding Member HOF Muscoda Gun Club

    Dave, There is some truth to what you say, but I see it more in the urban area than rural. I remember when I first starting to shoot trap. It was due to the fact that I had moved from rural Wisconsin to Chicago area for gainful employment. With the lack of a place to hunt I started to shoot trap. If there was sporting clays going on at that time in the area I most likely would have started that as it is closer to hunting.
     
  11. User 1

    User 1 Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

    There are always many 'factors' .... but the one that most dismiss is ......

    If you start throwing big bloody steaks, not just the bone, out in your yard ..... soon you will have large packs of dogs traveling great distances to fight for the feast.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  12. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Gasp!

    I will now be offering Ken Cerney anti-truth voodoo dolls. Interested parties can email me at WinstonSux@2hole.com

    -Gary
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
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  13. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

    Again, I can't argue with that either.

    The business plan that the ATA adopted to keep the revenue stream flowing was a little flawed. To say the least. I think it backfired on them and they either don't know how to correct it or, just don't want to. The 20 yard line min. would have been a good start. Kinda like, we hear you and are making a change. I won't hold my breath.

    I think it turned into a catch-22 for them. Local shoots got smaller or just stopped. For any/ all four of your reasons. People didn't want to go where they had 3 squads of 16's , 2 squads of caps and not enough shooters for doubles. You couldn't win anything. Might as well shoot practice and save the money and shells for a state shoot. Then when you did go to your state shoot you competed against guys that worked the system. ( I know, they didn't invent the system, they just worked it) but it sure made it tough to win anything. The guys I shot with for years all quit. Some for health reasons, some for one of the reasons you listed, some just got disgusted with the whole system.

    I posted in another thread that I might even re-up again and try a few hundred at a local shoot just to seee if I can still break a hundred. Can't imagine I would ever go back on the trail and shoot the numbers of registered targets I used to. Darn shame! Like I said, I used to live for the registered weekends.

    Flyersarebest, But I'm still a Trap shooter.
     
  14. CCfan

    CCfan Active Member

    The ATA is what it is due to bonehead decisions by the EC, BOD, and past presidents. If they really had the courage to do the right thing then everyone of them would resign.

    How long would any of them lasted at a board meeting of major shareholders? The clubs are doing well in my area. Not because of the ata but despite the idiots at the top.
     
  15. Trapper56

    Trapper56 Member

    We had 20 squads NE Ohio. Just club league. I don't think any of them knew what an All American point was. Maybe they didn't get the message.
     
  16. FL67

    FL67 Member

    Gary,

    Are you sure the EC did not send that post to you? According to the FBI statistics the last decade has seen a massive surge in gun sales in the U.S.
    We don't have a shortage of shooters at my club. Most of our members can no longer spell A-T-A.
     
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  17. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Obviously lots of people like us continue to own guns. People in the south largely haven't bought into the demonization of guns BS and continue to buy them. Lots of SHTF preppers buy guns. Obama sold more guns than any human in history and every mass shooting sells guns because people see the government trying to politicize these tragedies to forward gun control. None of this contradicts the reality that there is a massive push to brainwash the sheep by demonizing guns and indoctrinating kids.

    Enjoy your guns; you may be the last generation to die while it's still legal to own them.

    -Gary
     
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  18. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Mega Poster Founding Member

    Handgun sales continue at a rapid pace. We can't keep some popular models in stock. Long guns sales are very slow but do trickle out. Krieghoff can barely keep up with the demand for their guns with Sporting Clays dominating the market. There seems to be plenty of disposable income available for those $12,000 shotguns!!
     
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  19. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Forum Leader Grudge Match Champion

    Can any body order the WinstonSux@2hole.com VooDoo Dolls, I want to stick the Hell out of it w/pins, how many pins are the most effective?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2015
  20. Gerald

    Gerald Mega Poster Founding Member

    Death and cost.

    Don't know about you but I don't have enough fingers to count the number of shooters I have enjoyed over the years that are not around anymore. They were dedicated shooters.
    Not enough people to replace them.

    Cost is another big factor. If gas stays down it will help but a lot of clubs that have closed will make it more difficult due to distance.



    Regards....Gerald
     
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  21. LimaShooter50

    LimaShooter50 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Post of the year.
     
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  22. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Pins no longer included. For some reason everybody who ordered the DLS voodoo doll requested extra pins, so I'm out of stock.

    -Gary
     
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  23. Leonidas

    Leonidas Mega Poster Founding Member

    GW22, Good post.

    Another thing I would add is the big money shooters blamed the ATA but in fact the big money was option money and the ATA had nothing to do with options.

    The schools of little fish got tired of being eaten with no or little chance to win so they quit playing the money. Now all the big money shooters have left is to discredit the ATA, EC and its Delegates.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
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  24. FL67

    FL67 Member

    Can we get the one with the pink skirt and ship to Florida?

    doll.jpg
     
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  25. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    How large would a Big Don voodoo doll be?
     
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  26. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney HOF Muscoda Gun Club Past Wisconsin Director Founding Member HOF Muscoda Gun Club

    Gary, Send the invoice with the doll I will send payment or do you take pay pal?
     
  27. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

    I could give a suggestion on what to construct it from but you wouldn't be able to stick the pins in it.

    Flyersarebest
     
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  28. MODERATOR 1

    MODERATOR 1 Administrator Staff Member

    FROM THE MODERATOR

    RULES OF THE FORUM:

    This is a trapshooting forum. You may discuss trapshooting related voodoo dolls but...

    All transactions must be completed in the FOR SALE section.
     
  29. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

    Anyway we could get a green voodoo doll made? Just wondering.
     
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  30. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Forum Leader Grudge Match Champion

    I love trapshooting also when I started in 1967 shooting small shoots for components, my buddy and I graduated to calcuttas, we shot every day of the week except Mondays, we would have shot then if we found a shoot. We did this for a very long time, Since I had earned yardage shooting ATA he joined and the very first shoot they used known ability on him and gave him 2 yards, he quit, never another registered target. So all he shot was Calcuttas with his Solid Rib Model 12 with the taped on rib where it came unsoldered, he still has it. He now shoots sporting clays and skeet at Sunbury, Ohio. In the warm weather he is Bass Tournament Fishing, he's won a couple of Complete Bass Boats w/Trailers. I still shoot trap as much as I can afford. Buddies, Annies, and Long Birds. I have some secret Longshot Loads. I still shoot ATA Handicaps once in a while. I really never liked shooting 16yds, for me it is a miss and out, being AA. I am moving to get closer to my shooting clubs.

    GW22 you said it the way I needed to say it. I am not skilled enough to do that. I do Congratulate you in putting it on paper like it should have been put, Congratulations Again. Thanks
    Gary Bryant Dr.longshot
     
  31. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    Which of Gary's Voodoo dolls would be the best seller?

    I hope you at least come up with a limited edition green doll. A really short one that can't shoot.
     
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  32. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Forum Leader Grudge Match Champion

    I finally got Winstonsux@2whole.com VooDoo doll hey thanks for shipping to me, now I have something to do to relieve my frustrations more pins please Voodoo-doll1.jpg
     
  33. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Wow, this is amazing. Let me try to soak it all in...

    1) We've got a guy who apparently hates the Cardinal Center, which I love, complimenting me on this thread.

    2) We've got Dr. Longshot thanking me profusely for refuting his perpetual rant that target angles/speed, Neil Winston and the EC are entirely responsible for the demise of ATA shooting.

    3) I made a couple jokes about voodoo dolls and now I've got the moderator warning me that I can only sell them in the For Sale section. LOL.

    Whew, crazy.

    But funny!

    -Gary
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
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  34. Leonidas

    Leonidas Mega Poster Founding Member

    If you're referring to me I never said anything about hating any gun club. In fact the more the merrier.

    But one question is why the hate for Bigdon and Neil Winston?
     
  35. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

    I didn't read into hate. I like Big Don....someone even considered putting his name on a shirt. Someone above has a cutie doll that he thinks is in the likeness of someone.

    Where is Big Don.? It seems we like both of them more than they like us. :(
     
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  36. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    Leo....if you go back to wherever. Would you please ask where Big Don is. Check on Neil also. The more the merrier.
     
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  37. Dave Berlet

    Dave Berlet State HOF Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame

    Big Don is really an O K guy that just gets his shorts in a wad occasionally. He is probably very busy this winter loading up bunches of those 1250_ 1300 fps shells from the good doc's loading manual so he can whup up on us poor Buckeyes this summer. L O L.

    Actually I consider Big Don a good friend.

    Dave Berlet
     
  38. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Well put, Dave. Big Don is an interesting character and excellent shooter. Hopefully he and other TS.com regulars will occasionally choose to leave corporate captivity and join us here in the wild.

    -Gary
     
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  39. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    If you guys ever meet the big guy you will see why all here would enjoy his presence.
     
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  40. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Forum Leader Grudge Match Champion

    It's fun to kid around. IMHO, Don and my rival Neil, would be great assets to the forum.

    I enjoy conversing with both of them.

    Dr.longshot
     
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  41. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Forum Leader Grudge Match Champion

    Looks like someone is getting him ready for another 2 yards off, and another rule change
     
  42. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Forum Leader Grudge Match Champion

    How about my Rivals right hand man Barfin and his brown noser right up in there Grntitan
     
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  43. Leonidas

    Leonidas Mega Poster Founding Member

    More named personal attacks?


     
  44. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame

    Leonidas, I like big Don. Brad
     
  45. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Moderator

    I happen to like BigDon also! Met him at the Grand and we talked a lot! Very interesting fellow and I consider him my friend! I told a nephew I'd met Don and we got along just fine. He said that doesn't comes as a surprise, you're both a couple of azzholes!! :)

    HAP
     
  46. Rosey

    Rosey Mega Poster Founding Member

    BigDon is almost tolerable once you get to know him.
     
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  47. Robert Zimmerman

    Robert Zimmerman Well-Known Member Founding Member

    BigDon is one of the good guys and a lot of fun to shoot with.
     
  48. GW22

    GW22 Mega Poster Founding Member

    Grntitan went far out of his way to help me on several occasions even back when he didn't know me from Adam. Expected nothing in return. I'll take friends like that any day.

    -Gary
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  49. Barkingspider

    Barkingspider Active Member

    I think I will go out and shoot another hundred this afternoon. You all keep up the good work. I will be back later.
    W
     
  50. Wishbone

    Wishbone Mega Poster

    Barkingspider

    I think you have the right idea. I was out Saturday and had fun.

    Have to work this afternoon or I'd be gone again.
     
  51. Smithy

    Smithy Mega Poster Founding Member

    Are Barfin and Grntitan real names?
     
  52. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    I am sure I will see Big Don at the Buckeye this week. Big Don is very likeable fellow. Just drinks a little too much of the cool ade.
     
  53. fredoniarob

    fredoniarob Guest

    You left one off...
    AGEING SHOOTERS
    i look around and my generation is absent from sport in my area, we where pushed away by those not wishing to compete against youth and our etiquette was not to there standard.
    Rather than taking the time to teach they subjected us to ridicule and put us down.
    the reason i stayed was because of a good friend and teacher that pushed me hard to not only compete but to learn history of sport.
     
  54. Believer

    Believer Member

    Wow, by the time I got to the end of this thread I forgot what I originally wanted to post. Anyway, I agree with the cultural side affecting the sport. How can my 8 year old go into school and tell them about his summer vacation of traveling the country to shoot a shotgun? Taboo to mention the word gun in schools so he usually just tells about some little thing we did on the side. How can he possibly speak of his activities which may influence his friends to try in such a effed up society?
     
  55. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

    Here is a perfect example of what you posted.

    My youngest grandson was about eight or nine and had a school project titled "Grand Parents". It was just a little pamphlet that had some questions and then he had to write a short paragraph. The questions gave a little background on my favorite things. For example, colors, food, job, simple question that we could talk about together.

    We were having fun filling it out, I helped him with some of the spelling, and we were laughing and a good time. He was writing down whatever I told him. THEN, we came to the question about what I liked to do with my spare time. I told him he knew what the answer was, shooting guns.

    He stopped writing, wouldn't look at me when I asked him what was wrong. I thought, WTH? What just happened? I pressed him a little about why he wouldn't write that answer.

    "What's the matter Bud? You know we both like to go to the club and shoot."

    His lip was quivering and he started to tear up a little. Can you imagine what I felt thinking I just made my grandson cry? I told him that everything was fine, no need to get upset, just tell me why.

    "I can't write that Pap, it has to do with guns."

    I told him to write fishing.

    There's a whole other story about how, when I told his mother, she contacted his teacher the next day and explained to her the facts of life.

    Flyersarebest
     
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  56. cfandg

    cfandg Active Member

    Would need extra material for the legs. Like a grouchy Big Bird with a shotgun.
    bb.jpg
     
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  57. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    How detailed does the voodoo doll have to be? The pink skirt on the Winston doll was a nice touch.
    Planning this Big Don voodoo doll. Will need this done by Saturday for the Buckeye.
     
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  58. Cpalmer

    Cpalmer New Member

    Isn't the purpose of handicap just that? It is meant to give new shooters (such as myself) a chance to be competitive.
    I don't know many people who can start out on the 27 and have a chance. I think it is great that a short yardage shooter won the grand, it gives other short yardage shooters hope that they may actually have a chance to win. I have met and shot with the GAH winner and personally think he is a good guy. Unlike a lot of people, before I judge someone, I like to meet them and form my own opinion, instead listening to what others write. Congrats Adam! Good luck this year!


     
  59. butterly

    butterly Mega Poster

    Interesting conclusion. ;)

    There could be a pattern developing here.
     
  60. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

    If another 18 yrd CAPS shooter ever wins again I doubt it will be under the same circumstances. Since the PA delegate got involved and the ATA spanked the hands of the 2 clubs where the "GAH WINNER" CLAIMED he shot a lot of those registered caps targets(lousy scores BTW) it SHOULD be pretty tough for anyone to duplicate they way the "GAH WINNER" did it.

    Flyersarebest
     
  61. langer

    langer Well-Known Member

    What was the penalty for the clubs? :confused:

    What was the penalty for the shooter? :confused:
     
  62. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

    "Isn't the purpose of handicap just that? It is meant to give new shooters (such as myself) a chance to be competitive."

    Yes it is. It has always been that way. Look back over all the years the Grand has been shot and see how many "shorter" yardage shooters have won the GAH. Good for them.

    The problem a LOT of people had with last years winner is that, after doing a lot of research into where and when he supposedly shot enough lousy scores to put/keep himself on that 18 yard line, they think he "worked the system". He, and the 2 clubs they slapped on the wrist. You will have to research that one yourself, I'm too tired.

    After a few more years of shooting I think you just might look back on what happened at the grand in 2014 and think, WTH?
    Reduction of the number of registered shoots they are permitted to have. ( Less opportunities for the clubs to make money)

    NONE! (Shoulda, woulda, coulda)

    Flyersarebest
     
  63. Cpalmer

    Cpalmer New Member

    That was a year ago, move on.
    All the shooters at the 2 clubs lost the targets shot there. The club was not permitted to throw registered targets for quite a while, they now have to send copies of score sheets every week.
    Both clubs are now doing everything by the book, I shoot at both of them.
     
  64. Flyersarebest

    Flyersarebest Moderator Founding Member Forum Leader

    If you knew the answer to your question, why did you act like you didn't?

    WAS not permitted? or ARE not permitted?

    Flyersarebest
     
  65. Cpalmer

    Cpalmer New Member

    Was.
    Has anyone else on this site ever won the grand? I wish I had enough time to sit around and dwell on this, but I do not.
    Happy shooting.
     
  66. oldphart

    oldphart Mega Poster Founding Member

    Cpalmer,
    By your text it appears that you believe that no wrongs were committed, the only thing that could be proven is that the clubs did not retain the score sheets in question. that is why the clubs were penalized. As to the shooter there was not any PROOF of wrong doing so he was not penalized, others have drawn their own conclusions based on the events that transpired during the GAH and the shootoff that followed. People only believe the old proverb " if it walks like a duck then it must be a duck".
     
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  67. Cpalmer

    Cpalmer New Member

    I honestly don't care what happened then, I wasn't even shooting yet. I just enjoy shooting and also enjoy the people I've met.
    "Judge not, less Ye be judged"
     
  68. oldphart

    oldphart Mega Poster Founding Member

    Nobody is judging anyone just following the facts,
    1. someone reported that something was not right to the ATA
    2. the ATA asked the clubs for their shoot records
    3. the clubs could not produce the shoot records
    4. the shooters in question had paid the clubs daily fees which was forwarded to the ATA
    5. since no records of the shoots could be produced the ATA returned the daily fees to the shooters involved.
    6. something happened which is evidenced by the collection and return of the ATA daily fees
    No disrespect intended just following the facts.
     
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  69. creaker

    creaker New Member

    to the OP ... especially #1 ... frankly I'm befuddled that so many are in denial and took exception to #1
     
  70. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Mega Poster Founding Member

    And the targets were removed from the shooter's official records!
     
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  71. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    Creaker, your post shows where you were and were not at certain times in trapshooting history.

    How well do you think the grand and the PA and OH Shoots did the year all the steel mills closed in both states. You think the economy is weak now?

    Nixon's inflation proceeded that.

    And how about the 2 years of long lines during the fuel shortage?

    Enough about the golden years of trapshooting.....

    When you are done with those statistics tells us about our membership during the deep recession of the early 80's.

    There was the year of stock market collapse. Remember black Thursday? How was membership then? Did you see many at the grand?

    Did we mention the dot.com crash. Sent bunches into bankruptcy. How did that economy hurt membership?

    Those were the booming years and those were bad economies!

    The only thing that hurt us more than the target change of the 90's was the 2003 announcement that the grand was moving.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
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  72. fredoniarob

    fredoniarob Guest

    What i dislike about whole thing about blaming economic conditions is that i hear MOST OF OUR SHOOTERS ARE ON FIXED INCOMES.... why BE BECAUSE THERES NO YOUTH SHOOTERS AROUND TO CARRY THE TORCH.
    in the 80's when I was growing up i went shooting with my friends, now I'm the only one still shooting.... 1/13
    Average age of shooter in wed. league 67...
    Number of shooters under age of 18... 12....
    Pattern is consistent in Thursday night league and Saturday and sunday shoot....
    as shooters we need to reach out and support youth and help with AIM and school teams... THEY ARE THE FUTURE
     
  73. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    Fredonia....I agree.

    Every time a youth a youth shooter goes to a major shoot and sees that the sport is about being perfect we reinforce their perception that other shooting games are more challenging.

    Excluding skeet, the numbers for youth in the other shooting games are up. Trap is struggling to hold its own since what I call the dark age of trapshooting.
     
    wpt likes this.
  74. Rob Taylor

    Rob Taylor Active Member Founding Member

    One thing that I think goes here too, is the lack of the family unit. Many families are now single parent family with the father limited or removed from the picture completely. As a hunter ed instructor, I see alot of mothers bringing their kids in because it's a "gun safety" class. It is usually grandpa or uncle that takes them hunting and these are the same people who take them shooting.

    Since it takes time to arrange that to happen and the spare time can easily be filled in with electronics or ????? shooting and such is falling by the wayside.

    IMHO
     
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  75. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Moderator

    It's true, there's so many things for people to spend their recreational excess money on today it's almost mind boggling! So many today, that it helps explain why our sport isn't growing as it once was without placing blame on our org.

    Thinking back to the era when our growth rate was great, then fast forwarding toward the declining years, that began long before all the attractants spoken of today. The decline of our sports growth actually began when? Why did our sports numbers begin the decline at that time? Till we address those reasons and remedy the ills that caused the decline in the first place, we're merely treading water in a swim or sink mode.

    Even when our growth rate was at it's highest, our sport was an expensive venture! Reading and understanding our sports history and the drastic changes made to it may turn on the lights again, hopefully.

    HAP
     
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  76. fredoniarob

    fredoniarob Guest

    Last night i shot with a true family... 4brothers with different last names, different parents, and different addresses... but they are a band of brothers.
    Ones mother abandoned his family...
    ones family focuses its attention on his older brother....
    one needing guidance....
    and the other along with his dad the bond that helps them along.
    i grow up shooting with my MUCH older brother and remember the days well, i to feel that the family unit is falling apart but think that a new family can be formed through mentors and friendship. I think that school shooting programs and youth league is i good START but us adults must keep it going year round, not just during season.
     
  77. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Mega Poster Founding Member

    One thing for sure the top 100 Handicap averages weren't all 27 yarders!
     
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  78. oldphart

    oldphart Mega Poster Founding Member

    Years ago we used to recruit trap help from the schools this is where we picked up a lot of new young shooters, these kids grew to like the sport and were anxious to participate. Now even talking about guns at school is bad business and the education system bad mouthing anything to do with shooting we have lost these potential new shooters. Today most parents have been through this school system and do not want anything to do with guns. They have been indoctronated by the system.
     
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  79. just joe

    just joe Administrator Staff Member

    Bumping for the best of americantrapshooter.com. Anniversary
     
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  80. possumskinner

    possumskinner Active Member

    Longshot's doll poking at Neil is classic. Good of Neil to roll with the punch.
     
  81. BAMA

    BAMA Mega Poster

    I will add one more reason. The WWII shooters have all died. When I started shooting in the 1970's most of the shooters were WWII guys alot of them. And they all like to bet shooting there model 12's, 37's, and 31's. Their gone and so are there guns. A big chunk of the ATA went with them, as there was a noticeable decline in ATA shoots starting in the mid 80's, as those guys quit or died off.
     
  82. Johnson

    Johnson Active Member

    Laughing at the above post. That explains the 4,500-5,000 shooters that were at Vandalia in the 90's.

    thV0VE3LNE.jpg
     
  83. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Forum Leader Grudge Match Champion

    So Do I, Big Don Checked on me when I Had my Foot Amputated, and he Bought a Silver Seitz.

    Gary Bryant..........................Dr.longshot
     
  84. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    One of my favorite threads to the top.

    Four years later? Incomes are higher. Too many jobs. And still no one in Sparta.

    ❤️ docs voodoo dolls!!!
     
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  85. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    Many years later....how accurate was this thread?
     
  86. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame

    A lot of these posters are not active anymore, I miss some of them.
     
  87. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney HOF Muscoda Gun Club Past Wisconsin Director Founding Member HOF Muscoda Gun Club

    I never did get my voodoo doll
     
    BRAD DYSINGER likes this.
  88. Family Guy

    Family Guy Mega Poster Founding Member

    My favorite thread from the archives. How many of docs voodoo dolls were sold?
     
  89. Tom in PA

    Tom in PA Active Member

    Darn it FG! You just made me read that entire thread...again:D
     
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  90. Rob Taylor

    Rob Taylor Active Member Founding Member

    Has anything changed? New ideas? Money?
     
  91. BRAD DYSINGER

    BRAD DYSINGER The Philosophist Founding Member Member Trapshooting Hall of Fame Member State Hall of Fame

    Rob

    One thing that's changed (at the CC) Rob is those skeet fields that I warned about when I was TD. Another thing is look at the posters and how many of them have left the ATA for various reasons.

    Even with all the kids that have went through SCTP since the start of this thread not (any) much positive affect on the ATA shooters' numbers has materialized. This thread is going on 7 years old and so I'd guess you know what has changed, nothing good.
     
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  92. Rob Taylor

    Rob Taylor Active Member Founding Member

    BUT, we still have that "better" class of people across the road
     
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  93. bobski

    bobski USN Retired Range Owner

    we just spent 300.00 at walmart getting weekly basic food supplies. #1 is spot on. it use to be 100.00.
     
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  94. just joe

    just joe Administrator Staff Member

    Since someone mentioned the thread I will give it a bump.
     
  95. bobski

    bobski USN Retired Range Owner

    are the RV campers using diesel in those big rigs? if so, at 5.25 a gallon, I can see the desire to keep it parked and to take up basket weaving next to a fire. I still say #1 (costs) is the main issue for the common man.
     
    mudpack likes this.
  96. T Jordan

    T Jordan Well-Known Member V I P

    I just spent $725 at Costco stocking up on some meat and normal stuff. Future son-in-law was here today having a drink, he has shot a few rounds and loves it. Tried to tell him it is still a great sport but at $10 a box and $40 for targets a 300 target day is not in a young couples budget planing.
     
  97. T Jordan

    T Jordan Well-Known Member V I P

    I was talking to a trapshooting friend yesterday about the cost of shooting competition. He said he took his son to the Northeastern Grand he said it cost him $2200. Gas and hotel not included.
     
  98. butterly

    butterly Mega Poster

    That wouldn’t be so bad if a 50 paid $5,000 or a 49 paid $2,000. Since the handicap system doesn’t work that is lots of money.

    But, the delegates are way to busy to fix the handicap system. Ask your delegate what his plan is. I can guarantee you his plan doesn’t go any further than finding his parking spot at Sparta. And in hindsight, what was Shaw’s plan. What did he do to correct the handicap system?

    Answer: He got a free K80 combo or did he take a Pgun?
     
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  99. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

    Was this thread really started in 2015?
     
  100. shortbarrel

    shortbarrel Well-Known Member


    It's the gift that keeps on giving. ;)