Best part about a new organization would be......

One of the best parts of starting a new organization would be that we can get rid of the worthless records and fake accomplishments. Like what you may ask.

Ditch the grand slam crap! The new grand slams are not grand. Hotter shells. Perfect scores shot at higher elevations.

It is time to take a bulldozer and bury this muck.

 

So you're telling us that if you got a "grand slam" at one time or another you would advocate ditching it? I kind of seriously doubt that, but, hey, I could be wrong..

 

Butterly, I guess you got yours before the new Grand Slams came into existence. I'm thinking the "New" ones are still difficult for most.

 

The past is, what past was .... "One of the best parts of starting" would be letting the past be the past. An "Old Grand Slam" may be different, but not better or worse, just different.

It is an interesting way to get people to participate in a thread .... can we name it the "Longshot-Style" ?????

 

All six people involved might know each other.

 

There are 2 different standards to make some shooters feel good about an accomplishment they did not achieve.

 

Say whatever you want, I would be damn proud to have a Grand Slam on my resume, be it an old style or new style. Most of us will never achieve that mark, regardless of the fact that it "may" be easier now, in your eyes. I totally understand what you are trying to say, but, it just doesn't hold water for me. We will never see 3 hole, 50 yard targets again so we just need to do the very best we can do with what we have. I don't think the ease of acquiring a grand slam is as important as acquiring an EC/BOD that is honest, transparent, and trustworthy is at this stage of the game. I guess you are saying that if we bury all the records, things will get better on their own? I'm not really sure where you are going with this...

 

I disagree and I don't see why I should be happy with what we have.

Why should I be happy with dishonest org management and fluffy targets that have helped ruin the sport? I want more.

 

butterly...There is always a way to shoot registered targets and have fun without shooting ATA events. As far as being happy, that's your choice. You can either lodge a complaint with the ATA EC/BOD about what it is the ATA should be doing, or just stop shooting ATA events.... Pretty simple, isn't it?

 

Simple yes, but those are not the only options and certainly not the only options your org PITA took. The "Like It or Leave It" parameter is BS>

That has been done by the thousands.....and repeat.

 

Me too. The tees are closer now. I could not dunk a basketball at 9 foot or 10 foot. I would not compare someone that played basketball on lower rims to the other.

If the records lack credibility. An asterisk?

 

Doing that

 

I still get the opportunity to talk to a lot of shooters from time to time, not many are very pleased with the way the ATA is and has ignored the members over the years while some others could care less ... There are several (social) shooters that read the shooting sites to gather information , some even try to make some sense out of what the kool aid clubbers are saying about the people on this site, the WSRC, the ATA and trapshooting in general ... The club had quite a few former ATA shooters up there , most feel the ATA is heading in a not so "Fantastic Direction" and several seem to be surprised when they read about the EC, ED, and some of the BOD getting financial support (Company Business) to do little or nothing to advance and or better the situation the the ATA is in ... I find it interesting to listen to some of the shooters who attended a lot of major shoots as well as the grand for many years who gave up on it even before the relocation but did attend a shoot at the WSRC to find it lacking the luster of shoots in years gone by ... Sporting, skeet, and even trap seems to be holding its own on a social level as registered seems to be continually losing shooters at an alarming rate ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Cabala's has Winchester target loads for $57.99 in the last flyer I got from them if anyone is interested ...

 

We just start w/new records with a competitive targets. Men with Integrity and honesty. I believe the President should serve a 5 year term, and elected by the membership, not an in line to be next president. I feel if he is doing a good job he could be re-elected. If a President is negligent he could be removed from office by a re-call vote by membership. Vendors would be given a Rental/Price break/ Budweiser would have a Free Tent Rental Space, for their participation In Championship donations. Target supplier to be allowed Free advertising for better pricing, along w/Budweiser. Maybe we could bring back winning a few cars. Please add your ideas to help the Sport of Trapshooting.

Gary Bryant................Dr.longshot

 

Can one of you guys post bullet points on your complaints you have of the current ATA? I am just looking for the points, not a two paragraph opinion on each one.

 

Use the asterisk *

 

A "Grand Slam" is a Grand Slam but any that have been shot after the the target settings have been altered should be noted as such ... (JMHO) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

If you start down the road of 'footnotes', why stop at "target setting" ????

Why not release triggers, recoil reducing stocks, premium ammo, barrel tuning, sponsorship, clubs locations where weather and altitude may be better, and on and on ????

 

I can see where release triggers and recoil reducing stocke has kept many shooter in the game who without these devices would not be shooting at all. Just my opinion.

 

Problem is, based on a lot of material HB has found, we can never be sure whose targets were shot 3 hole v. 2 hole. I seem to recall reading that targets had been set in 2-hole back to the early 60's, maybe very late 50"s. You can't get accurate enough info to make the distinction, even if the distinction was something important, which it ain't.

 

Spoken like a someone that never shot 3 hole targets.

 

Quite honestly, I don't recall it making much difference for me. Admittedly I wasn't breaking 100's from the 27 either way, but I don't buy it making much difference to the better shooters.

 

Should there be an asterisk for target readers also?

 

Are three hole targets straightaways from 1 and 5? If so thats what I grew up with and still practice with at my little Ikes home club.

 

Leonidas...previously you said you could not tell the difference between the two settings. And where is the Ikes that always throws those 3 hole targets. Calling BS.

That aside....records are worthless if you cant compare apples to apples. Welcome to the feel good attitude that started in the mide 90's.

 

Read it again FG, where did I say I was comparing settings? Just asking if those were considered 3 hole targets. I don't know how to make it more simple for you.

If I wanted you to know where I shoot I would have mentioned it in my post!!

Just what are you calling BS on ?

 

Leonidas
I read your previous post. The one where you said you have problems telling the two settings apart. If you cant tell the apples from the oranges then I am confused why you care. Although you have mentioned that you regularly shoot 3 hole targets at a club. The mysterious club as you say regularly throws the 3 holes targets. And I quote:

At our little Ikes club we shoot 3 hole targets. When I shoot ATA I really don't notice much of a difference between the angles of 2 hole and 3 hole. Leonidas Jan 26, 2015

I agree with the OP. A new org hopefully would mandate the original 3 hole targets.

 

Guys,

I rebuilt many handset machines in my day, and only seen a few that showed that one hole targets were being thrown, they came from the upper mid west. Not many showed two hole usage, this could have been at clubs that had a normal head wind. The practice was not as abused as many would want you to believe, that is there way of trying to justify the change to the easier targets. I had clubs request a 2 1/2 hole setting, and I made a peg hole plate for them. It worked for the head wind. I also made peg hole plates with 6 #2 holes and with 6 #3 holes. Right after I made 100 with all #3 holes is when the change was made official, but many clubs still bought the #3 hole plates. There were other rebuilders in the business and I do not know what their experience were. Roger C.

 

I have spent many years shooting ATA targets, I have spent time and money
(lots) and have never regretted what I spent and going to hundreds of
Gun clubs and meeting and making so many friends.
BUT I would hate to see my records thrown out.
I also have been to many unregistered shoots and cheerfully volunteered
Scoring, because the clubs need unpaid help.
The ATA has made a lot of errors, but I feel that honest and
Interested people can fix the many problems.
Please do NOT give up on the ATA, just listen to experts like Paul Shaw
Thank you

Greta c

 

Very good points made by User 1, where would you start and where would you stop and how would you be sure of who did what, when, and what were the target settings, how would or could they be verified ..? A Grand Slam is a Grand Slam and an accomplishment either way ... I broke 300 targets once dropped a pallet of targets , had to be 300 broken, but then again maybe or probably not ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

If there are two different standards they are not the same.

New org.....We wont need the asterisk.

 

Greta as per your statement implying the honest people in the ATA can correct the problems.

Can you or anyone name 2 delegates that asked if the HOF was going to be owned by the state of Illinois. Or name the EC member that made it clear to the delegates.

 

FG, Are or were you privy to private conversations regarding the very question you ask greta? Can you name any delegate that didn't ask at one point of another including private phone calls? Or any EC member that made the point clear to a delegate including private phone calls.

After all if you can ask those questions so can I.

 

I am a Florida shooter at this time, and personally think we have a terrific
Delegate. In the summer, I go back to Pa., and I know the Pa.
Delegate takes care of business. He is from western Pa but it surprises
Me how he many clubs he comes to check on in the eastern part of the
State. When I shoot in N.J I see the NJ delegate all the time, he even
Makes sure that we have an up to date program book.
However, I can not say how much they get involved in the Sparta business.
Maybe each delegate should be questioned.

Thank you

Greta c

 

From what I hear no delegate asked. I also hear no one was informed. And I would assume no one cared to ask. I sent a letter to my delegate and state association. It was not important enough to get a response.

You compare that to wasting $2.1 million and more. $250k from the ATA.

You cant even tell me your own delegate discharged his fiduciary duties. No delegate we have has come forward and say he knew, he was informed, and he cared to ask.

If you have a terrific delegate he should be able to answer the question.

 

Ladies & Gentlemen;
We do not need a new organization, we need to get the one we have vetted out. It was at one time a true and trusted group, it can be again. All we need is the will to clean house. A house in order is a house that is trusted. Lets get the job done now. Roger C.

 

Okay Roger ---so here goes the plan.
Assuming all the folk we need at the top are not in office now. We vote them into their state orgs in year 1.

After a year or 2 , 1/2 those people gain the trust from the state org to be put in place as delegates. 2 years later those guys have made it to the matrix to get to where? The matrix stop there. The EC makes decisions without the delegates. Remember the once in a lifetime 2 yard reduction. The one we had twice.

The matrix / hierarchy of the ATA is designed to eliminate change. Too late Roger. Most of those that cared left long ago. Not sure we have 5 years.

You also forget the ATA is controlled by the states that have few trapshooters.

 

Although I agree with Roger, I have to agree with Butterly as well. Will there be anything left to save ?
Registered shooting is in the tank and may never come back.

The thought of a new organization reminds me of that movie....Nightmare on Elm St.

Regards....Gerald

 

Organization novice here. The new start idea sounds easier than removing some than aren't in favor of being removed.

 

Best thing might be a org w/o Longshot.

 

Butterly,

I'm afraid you are right, but I hope you are wrong, for the sake of all the young shooters that are coming into the shooting sport.

Maybe Longshot is correct, let the government agency do the house cleaning and then pick up the pieces if any are left. How did the organization degenerate down to this level? Roger C.

 

BECAUSE WE, THE MEMBERS, LET IT HAPPEN! How long have we all known about the Robert Glatz.Frank Rively railroad job? How long have we been standing, in silence, while the ATA did as they wished? We did nothing, and are still doing little, or nothing, about it today. Granted there are a few of us that are trying to bring all the problems to light, but the vast majority of ATA shooters do not want to get involved. If enough of the membership brought pressure to bear on their delegates to change things, something might get done. Barring that, the membership needs to have the balls to just quit the ATA all together. Formula: No members, no money=no more ATA as we now know it.... And that would be a good thing as it could signal the start of a healthier ATA in the future...

 

I believe that we got to this level by members not paying attention or not careing about/to what was going on and members of the EC saw and took advantage of the situation. We also had elected members of the BOD who for some reason allowed the EC full reign without accountability. If we as members don't care or don't want to get involved then I guess we are our own worst enemy. No othe way to put it or assess blame.

 

There is nothing fun about being the one to face the Jackals, and no one is to blame for not wanting to do it ... but you can try to make a difference, or just do nothing.

Doing nothing is the easy thing, and probably the smart thing, but if you care enough to say you care ... then you will always question yourself about doing nothing.

 

User 1 If you really think about it all the members who attend their State Meetings and vote for their delegate are doing something. Unfortunately elections regardless if they are political or within the ATA result in some people being disappointed if their man wasn't elected.

Also you might say the road to hell is paved with good intentions regarding a candidate that gets to the position to do something and then finds he can't fight the majority of the delegates on issues beneficial to the membership.

Personally I think getting the government involved is a mistake particularly when we are gun related and in this anti-gun environment we seem to be in at the monument.

 

Leonidas, the ATA EC is who got the government involved in trap shooting in the first place when they went to an anti gun Illinois and signed a deal with a government agency. The number one request of the ATA members when asked was to move to a pro gun state. And don't forget building a HOF building and then giving it to the state, just brilliant PR.

What would make any sane person think that this bunch can run anything?

What's the smartest thing the EC or Bod had done in the past 10 years? Can anyone name one thing they have said or done that has worked out like the ATA leaders said it would? Build it and they will come. Multiple reductions so more handicap targets will be shot. Categories and trophies for the same reason. All of these failed.

Let's us face facts. Just like Obama is clueless so are the ATA muckety mucks running the ATA. Gibson thinks the ATA is headed in a fantastic direction. Obama thinks ISIS is on the run. I think they are both remarkably stupid if they really believe what they say. Somebody needs to check the drinking water in Illinois. Lynn used to be a smarter person when he lived in Missouri.

I have not shot a registered ATA target for 4 years and won't ever again. I will never encourage another person to join the ATA again either. To shoot trap I will-- but non registered or PITA if your state has it. Do not give the crooks in the ATA a dime. In fact I quit tournament directing because I was helping the ATA when I was doing that. Even though I loved the Cardinal Center and working with the help there and the shooters I couldn't in good conscious do it anymore.

If a new organization forms I'll be happy to offer my services again. I think though that the days of big trap shoots are gone like the days of the big money shoots, along with the Buffalo. Just memories. Something in a zoo or on a ranch. Brad

 

Brad,

I also remember when shooting ATA targets was fun, just for the competition. I remember when you and Leo were running around the country living a young man's dream.

I think you could have done more to help this problem if you had stayed more active in the ATA rather then trying to fix it from the outside.

I agree with you that any officer that has been elected in the last 15 years are just into it for the white hat and a chance at a new $16,000.00 trap gun.

Ron Burdick

 

How long has this reward of a $16000 .OO trap gun been going on.,
Also what happens if the president for some reason doesnot serve
The entire 12 months.


Just curious. Greta c

 

It is not just a "16,000.00 trap gun" if you believe the report from a CPA ....

"Recent ATA Presidents have been reimbursed $40,000-$45,000 including the gun allowance. Only the
gun allowance has been characterized as taxable income (and that only recently despite contrary
professional advice), all other reimbursements have been provided “tax free”. Using a 40% federal and
state combined marginal tax rate, that equates to a $64,000 taxable salary equivalent for the ATA’s top
volunteer!"

 

I stood up for Dr. Frank Rively , he was doing what was supposed to be done, he asked the Office Personnell what was going on that should not, he was told about Expenses Being Paid that were not in their opinion legal. Funds Xfer Etc. Why was he barred from the EC BOD meeting at Vandalia? When those items were confronted to the ATA EC & BOD he was fired. I personally Thanked Dr. Frank Rively for doing a good job.

I asked our new delegate in the Ohio South East Zone, at the Ohio State Shoot in the Outdoor Dining Area, and Moderator Joe was there at the same table w/me WHAT IS YOUR FEELING OF GOING BACK TO THE 3 HOLE TARGET?
HER REPLY WAS WHO CARES.

I felt this was a trusted person, a person who really cared about Trapshooting, and her being elected to office was a correct move, I was absolutely dumb founded.

I feel the Election of Roger McNamer is a good selection, I now have to see how he serves in his new position as Ohio ATA Delegate. Roger you do not post on here, but you Hear what is being Said, It is time for you to Stand Up and Be Recognized. I have always felt you were a stand up ATA Shooter. Was GLAD you were ELECTED.

Gary Bryant.........................Dr.longshot

 

The ATA is a toilet bowl of corruption, the last thing that should be addressed at this time until there are some major corrections / changes is 3 hole targets ... I under stand where you are coming from but in reality the list of priorities go much deeper than that, until there are big changes 3 hole targets will not matter ... Delegates should be called on to eliminate the corruption and get the organization back on the straight and narrow then worry about the trivial stuff ... The ATA's EC, ED, and some of the BOD 's Cash Cow has to be eliminated and the organization has to go back to benefiting the members and the promotion of trapshooting for future generations ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The very first 34 degree angles I'm personally aware of happened in 1982 in southern CA. The rule said targets must be no less than a straight from posts one and five. Our delegate was made aware of what was happening but nothing was ever done to my knowledge.

It would be totally impossible to put an asterisk beside anyone's name because of ATA officials condoning that cheating. A former delegate and past President from MN stated he'd never shot 44 degree angles in his life while registering ATA targets? I take that to mean from his beginnings the clubs he shot at were actually cheating our setting rule all along! Even more ATA officials are guilty of violating our setting rule through the years as Bat said above.

Selecting a state delegate is nothing more than a popularity contest at state shoots. What percentage of shooters attend their state shoots? It's no wonder it's more of a popularity contest than an attempt to select one wanting what's best for trap shooting overall. Being a dedicated max yardage shooter shouldn't be the qualifier to becoming a state delegate, not all are but the majority are. What's best for whom may be a better question?

HAP

 

If a new organization has to be formed, I hope the old leaders are man enough not to destroy all of the old records. History Buff has many in his own private collection, but there are many that we can not afford to loose. They are valuable to the future of trap shooting. Roger C.

 

Greta, I believe the gun to the President started at latest several decades ago, probably longer ago than that. I understand that it has not occurred recently, but can't prove that.

 

Greta have you heard if your delegate felt it is important to go to the EC winter meeting? And have you heard yet if your delegate voted for the $250k that was donated to the state of Illinois?

 

I'd shoot some registered trap again. Brad

 

Roger: When do you want to start cleaning house? Get rid of the corrupt/money hungry present EC and BOD
It will take the action of a lot of Life Members to get it done, I am up for it!!!!

Gary Bryant...................Dr.longshot

 

Gee I wonder who that would have been? Didn't they give that guy some kind of lifetime achievement for ruining trapshooting? Where is the graph showing that result?

 

I am glad I am a Trapshooter, and not a baseball fan. My records are shooting records, Sparky's were coaching records.
We trapshooters do it 25 times and in 5 positions. And in the bedroom I do quite a few more.

Gary Bryant...........................Dr.longshot

 

The point I find most amusing about the "Grand Slam" The people who bitch the most about it, don't have one!

 

Like the steroid era in baseball. Most never played in the majors but they know a cheat when they see one.

 

The most defensive are those that have the feel good accomplishments.

 

Those who tear down others accomplishments have never achieved any themselves.

 

Those that lower the bar accomplish nothing but fooling themselves.

 

Loudone
Could you get H1N1 to bring a graph to the forum showing participation, membership, and general growth in the sport since your pals lowered the competiveness in the sport? I know he was awarded a lifetime achievement for his role in making the sport less challenging.

In this case the person that tore down the accomplishments of others were the people that worked to lower the bar don't you think.

Not only have they torn down the accomplishments and records but destroyed the whole damn sport. Thanks for your help covering for them.

 

Those who play by the existing rules and excel, will always have jealous peers.

 

FG,

To put down someone's accomplishments that were done according to the existing rules makes one look small and petty. If me pointing that out involves me in some massive cover up.....so be it.

 

Loudone
Changing the rules did not make the accomplishment the same. Again the group of people that disrespected the previous accomplishments were those that lowered the bar and those that continue to go to great lengths to define the accomplishment as equal. They are not equal.

Trump would call that bullshit and Hillary and you would say what does it matter?

 

I've never once said all Grand Slams were the same, but please twist it anyway you need to fit your agenda, after all isn't that what Obama would do? I will continue to point out that putting down someone else's accomplishments makes you look small and petty.

Do the target reading era count as quality Grand Slams? Where does the magical cut off of quality Grand Slams begin?

 

No but you did imply that saying they were different was putting down someone's accomplishments....which is worse. You attack the people that are saying they are different. Defending your pals that destroyed the sport. And like Hillary you have doubled down as if it doesn't matter.

You again continue defending those that made the sport less sporting with the target reading defense. As to the target reading era.....after that period there were less than 50 grand slams. Now hundreds. Atta boy Loudone. You get that graph from H1N1 yet?

Could be the OP is right. A new org may eliminate the question. You would not like it. Heaven forbid challenging targets.

 

Personally I would welcome putting the targets back to a 3 hole equivalent. But I fail to see where this will help the sport. The top shooters are still going to be on top even if it's not a 100 straight. So what do the B,C,D shooters (the bread and butter of this sport) get out of this? Instead of them breaking a 90's score on a good day, they'll break a high 80's score?

If we're going to make changes and I believe we need to. Please explain how this change will make things better. How will this bring in more new shooters? People say that shooters are quitting the sport because they can't break 100 straight against the big dog, but now your going to give them a tougher target and expect them to magically stay? This sounds like something Bernie Sanders would promote.

 

Bernie would love the game as it is. The socialist game. Easy for everyone. Challenging to almost no one. It now exists as designed not by a red or blue state. It exists as designed by the purple state. The easy sport. The boring sport. The sport that is almost dead.

Our sport has moved into gridlock in the land of Obama. The land where you can see the results of a Bernie Sanders and Obama leadership. It is on life support at best much like Bernie himself.

 

I'd like to see your facts to back up this statement. Show me where "almost" no one is challenged. Last few shoot reports I've looked at says at least 90% of those in attendance found it challenging. Last time I checked the vast majority of shooters couldn't carry a 90% average in handicap. I'd call that challenging.

 

Not to take sides here about difficulty of targets, but one of the often asked questions is "Is Sporting clays really growing, and is it hurting the ATA?" Those of us that shoot it usually agree it's harder, especially if you shoot the big regional and state shoots.

From the NSCA website (which BTW is much easier to navaigate than the ATA website):

2102 membership 25,540....2014 membership 28,874

The "Advisory Board" members hail from these states: (1) from MD, WA, WI, SC, LA, AK,UT, IL, AZ, and (2) from NJ, TX, GA. Most of these are not big ATA states.

Top 9 membership states: #1) Texas 5,114, #2) CA 1,911, #3) FL 1,812, #4) PA 1,243 #5) GA 1,155, #6) SC 1,014, #7) ILL 821, #8) OH 813, #9) MI 670.

6 of these states are fairly large ATA states. That doesn't mean the NSCA is "stealing" shooters from the ATA, but it definately looks like a higher percentage of new shooters are opting for Sporting clays.

 

Porchdog
Prior to the MN rule change there was almost never a 27 yard winner at the grand. Handicap shooters did not have class "A" averages from the 27.

 

I didn't defend anyone, once again your trying to twist what I said into something not true. I simply picked a point in time as a reference. My hats off to anyone at anytime that achieved a Grand Slam. This game will continue to evolve and rules will change causing this argument to go on forever.

For the record, I welcome challenging targets. I personally just love to shoot, whether it be ATA, sporting, flyers, bunker or good old club shoots. My home club has concrete poured to 34 yards and we only move back from there!

 

I fail to see with all the advancements made to that you can said definitively that the rule change is the ONLY reason 27 yard shooters are winning at the Grand.

Personally I think 2 things are the biggest credit, custom fitted stocks and voice call.

My averages have moved up a good deal since getting a fitted stock. I've shot with hand pullers, they can make or break you in one post.

 

No one said the rule changes were the "only" reason. The faster shells did not help. That is why they all shoot 2 1/2 dram loads. Making the targets easier actually made it more difficult for the pros to shoot from the back fence?

100 years of trap shooting and only few perfect scores from the back fence.

I believe you Porchdog. I believe you when you said "you fail to see it."

 

Family Guy, you seem to be getting all flustered, perhaps you should check your BP and relax a bit.

 

What is wrong with my bp? Strange that someone that shoots does not think faster shells and easier target presentation would increase scores. Very strange.