What venue will replace Sparta? Re-vote!

So much has happened since the last vote. Let's try this again.

 

If the shoot (grand) stays in Illinois it will continue to flounder as attendance drops off as it has since the relocation to Sparta, Ill . ... People do not like living under a "Black Cloud of uncertainty" and will usually plan something that is more stable that they can count on being there for them into the future ... Illinois is typically a state where anything can happen but that changes on a daily basis in some cases ... The State of Illinois cannot afford to support and absorb the annual losses that the WSRC provides which has been proven over the past 11 years ... That does not mean with any certainty that the WSRC will not be in operation by some or what ever means at least on a temporary basis ... The State cannot continue to sustain the operation and the ATA cannot afford to financially cover the operational costs without putting the funds in jeopardy or at risk ... Sooner or later the walls are going to come tumbling down ... If the ATA is counting on member support in Sparta,Illinois, I think they have another think coming but that remains to be seen ... The Grand as a lot of us know or knew it is gone but not forgotten ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

If I wanted to make a best guess, I would look for 2 things.

I would see where a "year-round" vendor may be looking to relocate, I can't see much 'walk-in sales' in a "shut-down" location.

And I would see if something like a 2016 PULL, LLC forms to buy property at a certain location.

 

2012 Pull, LLC certainly served its purpose for the 1 1/2 years it was in existence.

You can bet that a new Pull, LLC will be organized if there is another relocation.

 

HB
Unless we man-up and remove the corruption from our sport it will always be ground hog day all over again. Shooters have to see the names on 2012 Pull LLC.

These guys can help: http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp

 

The HOF is the anchor baby for the corrupt.

 

Where ever it may be, it better be around a core of trapshooters and entertainment. Trap shooters have discovered that the Grand is not necessarily a "must go" shoot anymore. Times have changed. Family and individual priorities have changed.

If the wife and kids are gonna go, it has to be treated as a shooting vacation, and the family (especially the wife) has to have things to do when pops is shooting. Especially if travel time is involved.

"Hey honey, I'm going to the Grand. See ya in a week".....wouldn't fly in most households!

 

The grand might be held in Sparta @the WSRC in 2016 and maybe beyond but with the attendance dropping off drastically is serious cause for concern and how its going to be subsidized and by whom ..? The ATA signed an agreement with the State of Illinois and they agreed to a $3 fee per entry, with the facility crashing and burning and adding to the States financial deficit annually it sounds like the ATA is about to agree to pay additional monies toward a temporary opening so they can continue to have the grand at the WSRC ... Would this be reasonable or logical to change the rules after the agreements had been reached and in effect, not to mention legal ..? The grand at this stage is a crap shoot at best and has proven to be a loser so why would the EC and or BOD even think of putting members monies at risk rather than stop the bleeding and move on ... The WSRC might be the Taj Mahal of shooting facilities but all things considered it has been, is, and will continue to be a loser from a financial stand point ... The members should avoid supporting anything that can jeopardize the money that is invested and on hand unless major changes are made and put into use ... The ATA is on life support statistically and unless there are absolute changes made to correct some things I doubt they will muster additional support of the majority of the members ... The time will come when the members will band together and demand changes that are for the good of the Association, let's hope its not to late when it finally happens .... There is always the P I T A if all else fails ... WPT ... (YAC) ....

 

This is posted on the ATA's web site (Shootata,com), obviously the ATA is going to take over the camping so they are asking that the campers cancel their agreement with the IDNR and get an agreement from the ATA ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

STATE OF ILLINOIS
DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES
CAMPING AGREEMENT CANCELLATION


This camping agreement cancellation will be effective on the ___ day of ____________2015, by and between
______________________ as “LESSEE” and the DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES “DNR” as lease property owner for
SITE # _______.
LESSEE and DNR hereby cancel by mutual consent effective _________2015 the remainder of the term of Agreement
No. _______, executed by and between LESSEE and DNR, on ________, for the term running from ________ through
December 31, 2015, in accordance with provisions in of said Agreement, if any and with State Law.
LESSEE hereby certifies that they will comply with all applicable terms of said Agreement #______.
STATE OF ILLINOIS
DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES
LESSEE LESSOR
SIGNATURE OF LESSEE DIRECTOR
DATE: , 2015 DATE: , 2015
OFFICIAL ADDRESS: OFFICIAL ADDRESS:
Illinois Department of Natural Resources
Division of Concession and Lease Management
One Natural Resources Way
Springfield, IL 62702-1271

 

If the .... "Hey honey, I'm going to the Grand. See ya in a week" .... works ....

Best of luck with ....

"Hey honey, ..... See, I needed a 50k truck, to pull my 40k camper, to haul my 20k shotgun and ??? flats of shells at a hundred bucks each ..... to spend a week and 10k to get this nice attendance pin and a 40 dollar lewis check" ....

"but, but, honey, ..... I went the first 25 in the 800 target shoot-off, so next year will be my year, because one of the 'Big-Dogs' signed me up for a 'clinic', and said all I need is more practice and some pointers".

"but, but, but, honey, spending all that money on the things you want is a waste".

 

Curious as to exactly what the stated purpose of 2012 Pull, LLC. was?

Don

 

I never heard of the PULL, LLC intil now please explain what it is/was.

Gary Bryant........Dr.longshot

 

Purpose?

I will be shooting at the Cardinal Center for 4 major shoots. Yes I have been to Sparta but never again. CC or bust!

 

applachianshooter,

I agree with you.

It is the duty of officers, directors and committee members in every organization to avoid conflicts of interest.

Additionally, it was the duty of the ATA Real Property Advisory Committee (Article X, Section 3, (a) - "To investigate all proposals by the Executive Committee relative to the acquisition of any real property . . . ."

I only know of one Delegate who told me he asked who the ATA purchased the Sparta property from. He said he was told the seller was Pull, LLC, of Midland, TX. He said he had to ask 3-times who was Pull, LLC before he got a name who turned out to be an ATA member from that city and state.

So, someone within the ATA knew the name of at least one representative of 2012 Pull, LLC, but evidently failed to ask additional questions. A communication to the Illinois Secretary of State would have verified if this corporation procured an Authority To Transact Business in Illinois from the Secretary of State's Department of Business Services, which is required.

I believe only a handful of ATA members are actually concerned about the names on the 2012 Pull, LLC incorporation documents and that makes it an uphill battle to right any alleged or perceived wrongs.

Don,

All I can say is that it appears the purpose of 2012 Pull, LLC was organized in Junction City, KS for any lawful purpose which may be undertaking by the company. The one purpose I am aware of was to invest in real estate by their purchase of the Sparta property located at 1105 E. Broadway St., Sparta, IL on June 1, 2012 from the ATA member in Midland, TX who bought the property from Southern Food Park on March 9, 2012. On October 8, 2012 the ATA purchased the Sparta property from 2012 Pull, LLC and the ATA member from Midland, TX, signed the Warranty Deed as their representative.

I just cannot seem to understand how the ATA member from Midland, TX and the ATA President penned their names on Lease Agreement No. 2012RO2123 for the Sparta property on February 23, 2012, effective March 1, 2012, prior to James A. Corbin, President of Southern Food Park signing Warranty Deed No. 2012RO1112 on March 9, 2012, transferring ownership to the Midland, TX ATA member? The sequence is questionable.

Doc,

2012 Pull, LLC owned the Sparta property 4 months and a few days before selling it to the ATA for $100,000. Reportedly this was $25,000 over what it paid for it.

The ATA E.C. minutes of April 8, 2012 and BOD minutes of August 16, 2012 incorrectly state the owner of the Sparta property as being Pull, LLC. They should be amended to say 2012 Pull, LLC. There was a company by that name (Pull, LLC) registered in Illinois which was dissolved in 2011 and had nothing to do with the ATA's current office location.

Enjoy Our History

 

Simplified explanation :

I buy a piece of property and know I have the connections to sell said property at a substantial profit to the organization and members I am supposed to represent as an Executive Director, Board of Director, or member of the Good Ol' Boys Club . We form a Corporation to try and hide who and what we are because it would not look good to any member if we profit off of them to establish a Home Office in a town the majority of them never wanted to relocate to from the git go ...We hold the property for a short time , have a special meeting and dump the property of the Association so they can make any and all repairs, updates to take over property so we can dissolve out Corporation and sneak off into the night knowing we just got one over on the members again until next time ...The ATA can justify the purchase without explanation because they need a place to call home and do not want to be a renter ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

History Buff:

I think we can all probably agree that if a related person was involved, that does not necessarily equate to something underhanded going on. That is lost on many here. BUT, that fact needs to be disclosed since it does require some diligence on the part of the organization simply because of the perceived issue with the transaction.

That said, was this "ATA member" a member of the ATA board or EC at the time of the transaction or in the previous 5 years? I don't see any disclosure on the 990, and would expect it if that was the case. There are exceptions to this requirement, and facts are lacking here, but it would generally be applicable with these dollar amounts involved (> $100,000 between cost plus rents during year)

 

Makes one wonder if this gets 'looked at' by the IRS and the Illinois Attorney General ..... will they see it as a "perceived issue with the transaction" ????? I guess one could "perceive" it is a duck, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck that can't get the ducks to lineup to match the "perception" .....

The options are more Kool Aid, or submit a request for answers here .... http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp

 

Bat, I totally agree. However, there are so many occurrences of coincidence, it could give the appearance to some, of a conflict of interest as well as the appearance of intent to position obstacles for anyone attempting to investigate this matter.

These occurrences (coincidence), the Amateur Trapshooting Association does not need nor deserve.

The ATA member from Midland, TX was not a member of the ATA BOD or EC. It appears that he bought the property at 1105 E. Broadway St., Sparta, IL on speculation, sold it in less than 3 months to 2012 Pull, LLC, a company of which he identifies himself as a member, who sold the Sparta office property to the ATA 4 months later. Now that's some successful speculating.

 

Speculation is subjective unless lets say its done with full knowledge of making a profit in the very near future by making a "Fast Shuffle" or stacking the deck ... There is no law that says you cannot ask any amount for a piece of real estate even if you know the worth of it, if some "sucker" (ATA) pays the price that then becomes their (Members) problem ... This is more or less insider trading without trading anything other than money and a little time to make a profit off of the members without them knowing it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

"If a 501(c)(3) organization engages in inurement or substantial private benefit, the organization risks losing its exemption. Additionally, insiders guilty of inurement may be subject to excise tax."

Private benefit: “A 501(c)(3) organization’s activities should be directed exclusively toward some exempt purpose,” said Richard Crom, Staff Assistant for IRS Exempt Organizations Customer Education and Outreach office. “Its activities should not serve the private interests, or private benefit, of any individual or organization (other than the 501(c)(3) organization) more than insubstantially. The intent of a 501(c) (3) organization is to ensure it serves a public interest, not a private one.”

Inurement: "The concept of inurement states that no part of an organization’s net earnings may inure to the benefit of a private shareholder or individual who, because of the person’s relationship to the organization, has an opportunity to control or influence its activities."

from ... http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/How_to_Lose_Your_Tax_Exempt_Status.shtml .... there is much more to read if you want to take the time.

Play-time may be over .... best case the ATA may lose it's "exemption" and some pay "excise tax" .... worst case ?????

 

What really caught my eye is how the minutes seemed to miss the "2012" part of 2012 PULL,LLC

Threw me off base looking all the while for just plain old PULL, LLC until I procured a copy of the deed..

It was then a little light bulb went off in my head...

Did, or did someone not want the general membership to be able to uncover who the seller was in an easy fashion ??

Not saying anything was wrong, perhaps a simple TYPO in the minutes that NOBODY caught when read over...

Does make me wonder though ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

I believe if this ATA member had the true interest of supporting the ATA, he would have made them aware of the building up for sale so they could have saved some money...This sort of made me wonder .... Who else knew about this before 2012 PULL got their hands on it ?

 

Thanks History Buff for clarifying the issue. I just couldn't put it into words so it would come out right...

 

OK, HB, that helps. If he was not EC or BOD, he likely does not fall under the requirements for disclosure on the 990.

 

He had to be a member of the board in the prior 5 years. Just look at the line of progression from start to how long it takes to be President. Roger. PS Why have we all omitted the name of this individual? Roger C.

 

The "ATA member from Midland, Tx was not a member of the ATA E.C". Carefully worded response. I wonder if any of the other partners in 2012 Pull, LLC were members of the ATA E.C.?

 

HistoryBuff,
If you have access to a copy of the lease/purchase agreement would you be so kind as to post it here for all to see? I am interested to see how much WE ( the ATA is all of us) agreed to pay per month during the lease period for this $75,000 property.

 

WTF! This ATA dude and his buddies just happened to buy the ground 3 months before the ATA signed on.

Why would a guy from Midland Texas have any interest in a parcel in BF egypt where there are no motels, no business, no restuarants, and no infrastructure? I was born at night, but not last night!

Names please. (or a website with the land transfere)

 

Documentation regarding the ATA's lease(s) and eventual purchase of the property at 1105 E. Broadway St., Sparta, IL was not obtained by me but I have verified by identification numbers, that they were recorded in Randolph County, IL.

Lease and Purchase Agreements can be accessed through www.randolphcountyclerk.com through the Land Records tab and then by accessing a paid program called Tapestry. I believe you can either print page by page or download the entire document. The documents sent to me appear to be the printed pages version and I cannot certify their completeness but they appear to me as being so.

I would strongly recommend that those interested conduct their own search in order to certify each and every property lease and purchase of the above named property.

I have ATA Lease Agreement No. 2012RO2123, however I simply cannot verify it to be complete due to its page by page assembly, so I don't feel comfortable posting it. While I trust that it is the actual ATA's lease agreement, I encourage those interested, to download the document from the website yourselves. Then and only then you will know you have the authentic and complete version obtained from Randolph Co. Records Office and can then be posted on this forum.

Below are the documents relating to leases and purchases of the ATA's Sparta Office property in 2012.

I hope this helps.

 

I must agree with Rosey! This deal smells of smoke, usually there's fire to go along with it.

Any misdeeds found out by any ATA member, EC or others involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of law. Our organization can't be branded as such and survive!

HAP

 

I guess I have to agree that any misdeeds should be prosecuted but on the other hand I also believe any false accusations should be prosecuted as liable,slander or what have you also. It's a two way street, like it or not!!

 

Leonidas, libel and slander is a tough nut to crack sometimes! You have to know that your spreading an untruth to be convicted of slander of another person. Opinions, stated as such, isn't in that class at all.

Badmouthing a system isn't the same thing as another actually stealing from all.

HAP

 

HB How does giving a ATA President a Trapgun Valued over $20,000.00 for the last 10 years minimum affect the ATA
501(C3) Status?

Gary Bryant.....Dr.longshot

 

Dr.,

It probably is more of an issue for the individuals that did not report the income. The guns were obviously compensation for many years of service, and there is nothing illegal about that. Any tax-exempt entity can pay fair compensation and reimburse travel expenses on behalf of the organization (properly accounted for of course) .

 

Bat,

Amateur Trapshooting Association By-Laws expressly prohibit the Executive Committee and Board of Directors from receiving compensation. Only necessary traveling expenses while on business of the Corporation.

I also recall hearing that it was not until about 2007, under the presidency of D. Ray Greb, that 1099's began being issued for the President's shotgun. At that time the expense to the ATA was $16,500. I believe 1099's were also issued to all living past Presidents as well. I'm told this was the first time in history that the President's gun expense was properly accounted for, but I find it hard to believe all our Presidents forgot to list their purchase on their expenses and file a 1099. I treated that report as just another vicious rumor devised by ATA bashers.

I've always agreed with giving our outgoing President a commemorative gift for their service to our organization. I just think the gun gift is excessive.

 

Dr. Longshot,

To the best of my knowledge I believe the value of the Presidential gun was capped at $16,500 the last 10-years. How the gun gift affects the ATA's 501(c)(3) is not something I can speak to due to my lack of knowledge on the subject. Some believe it could cause the legal trouble for the ATA including the lost of tax exempt status, while others believe it will not.

I'll leave the debate up to the experts. Trapshooting history is my concern. Sorry.

HB

 

Leonidas are you an attorney and where did you get your information? And you are a welcome idiot but that is just my opinion. Now sue me.

That's like burning your hand and saying the stove may be hot.

It is up to us or registered trapshooting my be "history".

 

Leonidas...
How do you explain the names included on these documents or are you just here to troll?

 

History Buff

These guys are great experts. You can write there, drop a personal message, or call and get an opinion.

http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp

 

A "Rule Book" does not exempt/shield anyone from any State or Federal law.

A Rule Book can say that any member can sell a firearm to any other member from a different State. That would not make it legal under Federal and some States law.

One of the things that got the ATA where it is now, is some people could not see the difference. Paying people and spending money using the Rule Book as a guide, in no way made possible illegal transactions, legal.

The Rule Book gave some power, and power lead to greed, now greed could cost them much more than they think.

 

HB,

The bylaws etc may say that, but in practice the organization had a long history of paying taxable compensation, whether they thought they could call it a "gift" or not. Treatment as a "gift" would not be applicable in a situation like this. An officer is generally treated as an employee, and just about anything of value given to them is considered to be in return for services and treated as compensation. It is rare for an employer to be able to pay cash or provide valuable items to an employee without it being deemed compensation. Basically, an employer can't make tax free gifts to an employee except in very limited,defined amounts and circumstances.

Compensating an officer is not private inurement unless it is unreasonable. You and many others may think this is unreasonable, but I would not be surprised to find it is easily supported based on length of time of service etc. Like I said earlier, lots of income tax issues in the earlier years, mainly for the individuals, but I don't see that issue being a big problem for the tax exempt status of the organization.

 

Bat
Why try to convince anyone? Are you a practicing atty in Illinois? Wouldn't a phone call work better? A call to these guys.

http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/about/email_ag.jsp

They are very helpful.

 

I doubt there is any convincing to be had here. Just answering a question regarding the gun and tax exempt status. Lots of poor info being thrown around here, now we have Dr. Longshot being convinced to file a form with the IRS that is specifically not to be used for the purpose he intends.

 

Bat,

Thank you for expressing your opinion. I've heard very similar opinions expressed in the past. Likewise, I've heard other knowledgeable people express a conflicting opinion and that's very confusing to folks like me. Just like when two capable and knowledgeable lawyers go into court and one wins and one loses. It makes me scratch my head.

I don't possess the knowledge to form an opinion on what actions are lawful or unlawful, so please understand that all opinions I've conveyed on this forum in the past are based solely on what I personally believe to be appropriate. And yes, we all have varying opinions on appropriateness.

Again, I appreciate the points you made to me and others. They help in reminding us there are two sides to every issue.

HB

 

HB, you are correct that the tax issues are confusing and there often are two views of the same transaction. You post facts, and are clear when you post your opinion, I appreciate that. There is a lot going on here, some things are concerning, others seem to really be just some posters trying to egg-on other readers to do something they do not understand.

Take for instance all the posts we see about filing that IRS Form. It seems to have gained a lot of traction, yet not a single person seems to have read the instructions for it?

One could very easily raise issues that many (most) gun clubs, or even state trapshooting associations should lose their tax-exempt status. I just would not even think of going out of my way to call attention to it.

 

"Lots of poor info being thrown around here" .... please take the time to enrich it ....

Everyone has an 'opinion', but if people can be corrected with the correct "info" in the form of the actual laws that apply it would help. Even those with the strongest 'opinion' can not 'deny' actual "info" in a different form than Kool Aid. The IRS takes the time to make laws public. Any 'proof' that the things being questioned are "legal" under the "law" that the ATA operates under, would be welcome information. An 'example' would be .... IRS code/law states a ??? can ??? with ??? limits .... More Kool Aid is "Lots of poor info being thrown around here".

"now we have Dr. Longshot being convinced to file a form with the IRS that is specifically not to be used for the purpose he intends"

"the purpose he intends" .... please tell us what "he intends" .... you must know to post that ....

 

Just think if someone would take a swipe at "Dr.Longshot", without first-hand knowledge of what he may have done, and possible "intent" .....

He may get "Leonidas" to help him with ...... "any false accusations should be prosecuted as liable,slander or what have you also. It's a two way street, like it or not!!" .....

 

This should make it a little clearer to those of you that believe all this was simply a "speculative coincidence"...

This is taken, in part, from an email I received that very clearly shows "who, what, when, and where" as it pertains to the whole purchase of Sparta....

Everyone should realize that we've come together as a group of concerned trapshooters and provided a ton of information to each other though we've never met. Also note that those who were quick to call us "ATA Haters and Bashers" are pretty silent lately. I believe most are finally seeing what we've seen for a long time and I hope to entice them to join us in cleaning up the ATA.

"On another note. I have the property deeds for the Sparta ATA office when it was sold by Southern Food Park, Inc to Patrick L. Dawson an ATA shooter from Midland Texas who within 3 months sold it to 2012 Pull, LLC of Junction City, Kansas, who within 3 months sold it to the ATA. And who happened to be connected with 2012 Pull, LLC during these property sales and whose name was never disclosed nor vetted for the possibility/probability of a "Conflict of Interest"????? Past President Rob M. Taylor, of Manhattan, Kansas who dissolved that LLC in August 2013. It strongly appears that 2012 Pull, LLC was only incorporated for the purpose of adding another layer of camouflage to make it harder to identify all the players. And another camouflage was done when the minutes written up by Mr. Galloway referred to the seller of the Sparta property as Pull, LLC which now has people searching for a totally different company and dead-ends all future searches. Perhaps it was a mistake in preparing the minutes but when I saw that Mr. Galloway had direct email communications with the lawyer for the seller and no doubt reviewed all the paperwork to include the 2012 Pull, LLC lease to the ATA, it certainly leads me to think it was intentional.

The problem is . . . . . . how to proceed? Who can we trust who is knowledgeable about reviewing all the information, putting it in chronological order and initiating legal action against those who broke laws?

 

Trap2's post refers to one of the matters I find very concerning.

To address User 1, I'm not taking a swipe at Dr. Longshot at all. I'm just pointing out that he seems to have been led to believe (incorrectly) that IRS Form should be used to report concerns about the ATA to IRS. I think he has been given poor information. Not a shot at him at all, more to the persons leading him down the wrong trail.

 

If there are any non compliance issues there may be more things that need to be addressed with regard to By Laws interpretations, 501 (c) 3 issues where EC Members get expenses paid to attend shoots on so called company business, when they don't even mingle with the people they are supposed to represent ... There are probably more things than we really care to know about what is really going on and who is profiting by some of the actions being taken supposedly on behalf of the Association ... I have good reason to believe that the Illinois Attorney General has been contacted on several occasions by several members, time will tell ... The member are treated like a bunch of "Mushrooms" fed a bunch of BS and kept in the dark ... Transparency and Integrity are wonderful things if you have nothing to hide, to say nothing is deception and that's considered to be a lie ... The members deserve to be told what is going on ,why, and where ... The EC and some of the BOD do not deserve to have their expenses paid and be wined and dined on the Members dime ... If there is some or any degree of corruption and mishandling money on or in making deals sooner or late it will all come out , if there is none then nobody has anything to worry about as that will come out also ... WPT ... (YAC) ... (DSP) ...

 

If you "think he has been given poor information" .... wouldn't it be 'the right thing to do' to try and give the proper "information" ????

I don't know how someone would know it is "poor information", without knowing what he has done, and how he may have done it. If someone has first-hand information, maybe 'others' can 'lead him down the correct trail'.

Here is a link with "instructions" https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf ..... what do you feel he has done wrong ??????

 

Here is form 13909 https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf ... is this the "correct form" ?????

 

Here is form 211 https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f211.pdf ... maybe someone would like a "award" if they find something.

 

Without knowing if someone was reporting certain people, or reporting the "ATA" .... how is one to know what path to lead others on ?????

 

I read Rob Taylor dissolved the Corporation of 2012 PLL LLC, he had to be the Incorporator of the Corp. to dissolve it, that leads us to the very top of the ATA, EC, and BOD.

How do I know this? I incorporated my HVAC business, and when I gave it to my son I had to dissolve it, no one else could.

Gary Bryant..........................Dr.longshot

 

Doctor,

It could be like the stake you refer to I guess, but I'm not really sure what makes it illegal for a 501(c)(3) on its face? Now, if you said the issue was they were not operating in accordance with their bylaws etc., I'd agree you have a better argument. In that case I'm not sure I'd kill their exempt status, I would think it was more appropriate to simply change the bylaws to allow a reasonable compensation at the end of their term if that is preferred, or to simple cease the practice if not. It's a moot point anyway I believe, my understanding (and it could be wrong) is that they haven't done the gun deal recently.

Remember, its taxable no matter what. It is private inurement if it is unreasonable. Is it unreasonable, maybe, maybe not. Remember, many officers of charities receive very large salaries. Paying the President is not illegal on its face.

Myself, I have no problem with awarding a nice shotgun like that to someone that served for several years, taxable of course. The organization's documents would need to be amended to agree with actual practice though. I have no issue with those that have a different opinion either. I do have a problem with that real estate deal lacking any further information. Even if there is nothing underhanded (and you have to understand that there could be reasons it was done that way to actually save money, although it certainly does not sound like that is the case, based on the minimal information we have). Best case - it was really stupid to not explain the reasons for the format they used. There are lot of worse cases.

 

Bat: The ATA office property in Sparta was originally owned by:SOUTHEASTERN FOOD PARK INC. If I have that info correct, they sold it to Patrick L. Dawson, a 27 yard shooter from Midland Texas ,Then Rob Taylor formed a Corp. Called 2012 PLL LLC, who were the other People in the Corp of 2012 PULL LLC, with Rob Taylor, was Patrick L. Dawson of Midland Texas an ATA 27 yard shooter in the corp. too? and then Patrick L. Dawson sold the property to: 2012 PULL LLC, then 2012 PULL LLC sold the property to the ATA. If Rob Taylor was on the ATA EC or BOD in 2012, it appears to me to be a conflict of interest, and then several months later, Rob Taylor dissolved the Corp., to dissolve a Corporation, you have to be the Incorporator, no one else can dissolve a Corp. It could be a lot more than a CONFLICT OF INTEREST. A LEGAL ANALYST COULD HELP HERE

Gary Bryant................Dr.longshot

 

Bat: It depends on the way the Tax Exemption is for the ATA 501(C3) was incorporated.

Gary Bryant...........Dr.longshot

 

Bat: Manhatton Kansas is 17 Miles from Junction City Kansas, I don't know if they are in the same counties, looks like Geary County, and possibly Pottawatomie County, as they are adjoining Counties.

Gary Bryant.....................Dr.longshot

 

To be on the safe side I filed both a 3949A & a Form 13909 some forms have been superceeded.

Gary Bryant....................Dr.longshot

 

Ok, regarding the real estate deal, I don't like that either. BUT, you should understand that you are getting into an area you do not understand at all. Granted, your position is likely that it is better to call attention to your concerns and let them figure out what happened, and whether there are any issues of concern there. Nothing wrong with that I guess.

Remember, a "conflict of interest" that you are posting about does not mean something illegal has occurred. Just because there is a transaction with a related party (disqualifed person in this case) does not mean there is a "conflict of interest." There might be, we don't know yet. To play devil's advocate: was a member of 2012 Pull LLC also on the ATA EC or Real Property Committee? Did an individual with an interest in the LLC also vote on behalf of the ATA to move forward with the transaction? If they did not have a vote, what is the conflict? It is pretty common for a board member to abstain from a vote for this reason. Is it possible that an individual was able to acquire the property cheaper than the ATA could have directly (would the seller have wanted more if they knew ATA was interested)? Was the price to the ATA a fair price in that market? What expenses did the sellers incur on the property in the short time they owned it? Did the $100,000 price include back rents?

It's possible that all of your concerns are groundless. It smells, but there isn't enough info on this site to lynch someone...yet.

 

The names hidden in the Articles of Corporation have some EC and or BOD members names on them which would, could or should constitute a "conflict of interest " being as they were involved in a transaction as technically a buyer and seller of the property to the ATA ... This cannot be considered to be legal, sooner or late we will all find out and so will those involved ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Doc Longshot,

FYI,

The documents regarding 2012 Pull, LLC can be easily found, reviewed and printed for free from the government of Kansas' webpage www.kansas.gov/bess . You can search by clicking on:

- Business Entity Database
- By business entity name
Type in - 2012 Pull
View Record
View History and Documents on right side

If you choose to also conduct a search for the Kansas Trap Shooting Association. This new corporation was formed December 2008 and eventually replaced the old Kansas Trap Shooters Association that was incorporated back in 1967 and dissolved in June 2010. It would be interested to learn the reason for the new State Association.

It is certainly a coincidence to see the name Walter P. Robertson as the organizer on both corporations (2012 Pull, LLC & Kansas Trap Shooters' Association, Inc.) and both are from Junction City, KS.

If the Robert M. Taylor who submitted the reinstatement, annual report and dissolution forms for 2012 Pull, LLC to the Kansas Secretary of State is the same person who was an ATA Delegate and member of the ATA Executive Committee, it seems to me that he should have made it known to ATA officials and Real Property Advisory Committee. In fact, the RPA Committee would be wise to consider establishing a procedure to ask all ATA officers, Board Of Directors and committee members if they have any association with the entity leasing or selling property of interest to the ATA. I can't imagine they don't have a boilerplate statement to read at the annual meeting each time the ATA is considering an expenditure on property. And the value of $50,000 cited in the ATA By-laws should be amended to include all property, no matter of its value.

The sage above advice posted by Bat, is very important. Decisions and actions made by those within the ATA that some believe to be improper or even a conflict of interest may not be illegal. I think the advice was a friendly caution to have your documentation of proof in hand because you will certainly be called upon to offer it up.

HB

 

HB,

FWIW, ATA states that they have a written conflict of interest policy and that officers etc review it. If it was me, I'd have made sure I had detailed minutes of the meeting where this deal went down, documenting how certain persons abstained from the vote because of a potential conflict (as they had of course already documented in writing, in accordance with the policy they were required to follow), and explaining the reasons that the transaction was in the best interest of the ATA.

Maybe they did all this? Maybe not?

 

Bat,

If I understand the ATA's Conflict of Interest Policy correctly, the purpose of the policy is to protect the ATA's interest when it plans to enter into a transaction which could benefit an Officer or Director.

Members of the ATA E.C., Board of Directors and committees have a duty to disclose all possible conflicts of interest due to a direct or indirect financial interest. The disclosure of facts is made to the Executive Committee, or Directors, and members of committees involved the proposed transaction.

The COF Policy contains a procedure for addressing the Conflict of Interest and Minutes must be taken identifying the names of persons who have a financial interest, the discussion and decision whether a conflict of interest exists.

Those holding a position in any of the above named groups annually receives a conflict of interest policy which they must read and sign.

The only part I'm unclear about is the statement in the Policy relating to the minutes of the Executive Committee in holding the meeting. Are these separate meeting minutes held in Executive Session that are not made available to the Board of Directors and Members of the ATA or should minutes for a meeting like this be posted on the ATA website?

If the COF Policy was followed there should be no problem. Does the absence of a COF meeting & minutes mean that somebody forgot to disclose?

 

Pay attention to the previous posts Dr.L.

 

I just got a copy from ZANDERS located in Sparta Illinois, Located at 801 Bradbury Ln. is that location in the WRSC Complex?

Gary Bryant........................Dr.longshot

 

There are more people standing in line to use the rest room at most professional sporting events than the population of Sparta, Ill combined with those who attend the grand at the WSRC , any vendor who depends on walk in business will not survive being located in Sparta, Ill ... Internet sales can operate from anyplace , easiest way to ship manufacture direct and you don't even have to handle and product ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The TrapGun Deal is still being done giving the former ATA President an expensive Trapgun, per the posting I made from the August 2015 ATA Minutes. I have not seen any documentation it has been stopped, but going on as usual.

Gary Bryant..........................Dr.longshot