Telephonic Grand....?

Yes there is talk of having a telephonic grand. A grand in which there are many places to shoot in the same tournament.

I can think of a few great reasons for such an event. Could be some of you have better ideas or reasons.

One reason is you could shoot at 2 different clubs on the same day in the same event. It was done in PA and WV? Strange tho they did not call that a telephonic grand. Needed a better attorney I guess.

 

Can't see how multiple locations would be fair to the competitors. Every location would offer a different shooting experience.

 

I do not see it happening because there would be more things working against it than in its its favor ... Weather conditions would become a lot more relevant if your shooting in 40 MPH wind and overcast and the competition is shooting with balmy breezes and bright sun light and or anything in between ... Ones ability to see the targets would be strained to the limits in some places and others would not create or cause a problem ... The Top Guns, Big Dogs, Masters, Teachers, Instructors, EC, and BOD, etc would all of a sudden be watching long range weather forecasts to see where they were going to shoot and if shooters were smart those places would be over run with shooters like they have never seen before ... The bank selection would all of a sudden become secondary to location, location, location and weather ... Don't see it happening but if there is not a choice in the matter, you never know, you know ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It'll be fair if all the mid-West and South West shooters go East to PA etc. while we go to their grounds. A few trees will cause some major panic to those who are not used to 'em while we think a sky target is something only in our dreams!

 

We could use a different style handicapping system to alleviate Ollie's issues. Utah, Colorado, and other high elevations can spot PA and OH shooters 5 birds on the caps and 2 per hundred on the singles.

If it is over 108 degrees in AZ or TX then 1 bird would be added to the scores.

We can allow easier targets to be shot in Minnesota. The targets would be purple of course.

 

Use the state shoots and Sat. Grands as a "qualifier", the rotate the location yearly of the Grand based on camping sites, amenities, and management. Non-qualifiers can shoot too, but they may have to pre-squad.

Many Sporting State shoots do this as well as the US Open, and it's kind of exciting going to different venues to see the lay of the land and shoot.

 

Rosey
Would be a great way to keep the blue collar shooters out of the game. Almost as good as the move to Sparta.

If there is a telephonic grand I will telephone the org and tell 'em I am done. Not that they care.

 

Stelts, I don't disagree with your thinking, but chances are.... one of the top 10 clubs in the nation would hold the shoot anyway. Like you, I'd probably bow out. But when only 10% of the membership attend anyway, and the cost to build a Grand facility are prohibitive, we've got to be flexible for a few years.

Who knows? all this political BS may pass, and the shoot may be at Sparta for quite a few years/forever!

 

Yeppers I can see Illinois paying off their trillion dollar debt this year. Vendors and shooters will clog the place. Two joints and a revolver will be given to each shooter by the Illinois State Police.

 

What if your phone isn't working?

 

Who uses a "land line" anymore anyway? And besides I prefer a.......
German Wirehaired Pointing Griffon4Grouse

 

I have a flip phone. Can I play too?

 

My gun did not come with a cell phone. Why not hold it at the Cardinal? With less than 70% expected, should be adequate. You guys in OH-PA can have it to yourselves and the rest of us will just stay home, hell we are not worthy anyway.

 

Too bad, you'll not only miss a great shoot but also a shoot with all the amenities!

 

After being told many times in the past 10 years that it is our (Ohioans) fault the attendance at the Grand was slipping, I see we have now gone full circle.
Someone else feels "not worthy" too.

God created grouse just for the setters!

 

Rosey,

Hardly, we have been told the attendence has been falling because the ATA moved from Ohio, the other 90% were stupid for trying to relocate the Grand in another State.

Ollieoleodog,

I do not have a passport to enter Ohio and would fear for my life even if I went there. You guys do not need the other 48 States and Providences or our money. Go for it. Just forget we exist.

 

I seem to recall many people saying "to hell with those who do not want to shoot against the best, let them stay home", when the ATA moved to Sparta ... It appears that a lot of people took that literally and stayed away, not only people from Ohio, Pa, but all over the United States and Canada (EH) also ... People voiced their opinion before they ever even got to Sparta to see what it was going to be and how it was going to turn out ... There are many people yet today that will not and will probably never admit it was a mistake to relocate to Sparta or Illinois for that matter ... The shooters who stood by their convictions and stayed away were not the cause, it was the ATA's fault for not heeding fair warning prior to make the move ... Those same shoots are still supporting the ATA by attending other shoots and paying the daily fees which is the life blood of the ATA, though they will never admit that either ... If the ATA was a private business they would of pulled the plug on Sparta a long time ago and not waited for the State of Illinois to do it for them ... The attendance is attributed to their move and ignoring what they were told before making that move ... Now, its time to move on or sit at the gate of the WSRC and see if anyone shows up in 2016 ... I doubt the folks at the Cardinal Center will be waiting to see if anyone shows up for their shoots any time soon ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

ATA 2015 Target Year Registered Target Participation By Location STATE/PROVINCE/ETC TARGETS

1 Pennsylvania 4,749,575 8.40%


2 Ohio 4,299,075 7.60%


3 Arizona 3,587,425 6.35%


4 Florida 2,715,475 4.80%


5 Illinois 2,574,875 4.55% (With the grand, Pitiful)


6 California 2,053,750 3.63%

Why in the world would anyone even think of moving the grand to Ohio ..? These figures were taken from the ATA web site and posted for anyone who cares to see ... All others, "we don't need you " ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Your absolutely right WPT, you guys don't need the ATA. If I was you after getting dissed like that, I would move on, forget about the ATA and start another organization catering to the needs of OH and PA.

 

I agree with azcotrap it is time for the east to say "the hell with the ata." Ohio and Pa should start there own organization, look at the numbers wpt printed, yet Pa's vote is diluted by being in the Eastern Zone and Ohio's by being in the Central Zone. If fairness and good sense had anything to do with it Ohio and Pa would be their own zone and have a VP every other year. (I could see bringing in New York and Indiana for a super sized zone)

I think the western shooters would be much better off letting the PITA run the shoots out west. All the former big ATA shoots that I used to go to are gone, Golden West Grand, the Las Vegas shoots, the western chain for the most part. Now you have a basic one club western ATA and that's Tucson shooting satellite grands. The California State shoot had less than 400 shooters, now that is really sad.

I'm voting for a telephonic grand, it will be putting the last nail into the ATA's coffin the EC's have given us. Time to pull the plug and move on. Not only from sparta but a new direction for organized trap shooting.

I challenge anyone to say they have heard me say I want the grand back in Ohio. My thought's for the last twenty five years have always been good riddance. The ATA pulling up stakes and moving to Illinois has proven what we here in Ohio (and PA) have known for years. We know how in the hell to run a good shoot. When the OSTA held our state shoot at Vandalia the EC was always butting in, they have no say at the Cardinal.

Let the ATA die the death it deserves and let's spend our time trying to fix the mess that they have left organized trap shooting in for the future. Does anyone really think that Sparta is the answer for a healthy growing sport of trap shooting. Brad

 

Once again Azco Trap has someone saying something that no one has said about not needing the ATA ... (see below)

'Your absolutely right WPT, you guys don't need the ATA. If I was you after getting dissed like that, I would move on, forget about the ATA and start another organization catering to the needs of OH and PA." "Quoting Azco Trap"

Good God man, learn to read and try to comprehend what you are reading for crying out loud ... You remind me of my Ex Wife, told me everything I said and I never said any of it ... I used to record some of the nonsense so I could play it back for her ... Then she would say she never said that after listening to herself say it on the recording ... I'm telling you, be better off talking to a toaster ...

If the PITA folks ventured to this area, I got a feeling they would be very well received by a bunch of people ... Same game, lots less BS ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT, somebody was stupid enough to marry you? Well at least she was smart enough to leave you. Notice Brad agrees with me? Apparently he understands me better than you do.

Are you, Family Guy and Ollieoleodog all the same person?

 

WPT, I think if you would go back and look more closely at the "ATA 2015 Target Year Registered Target Participation By Location STATE/PROVINCE/ETC TARGETS" the targets shot at the Grand are not included in the total for Illinois. The Grands total were 3.5 million alone which account for 6% of total targets. These were posted at the bottom the list separately.

 

No, I'm really me. Now run along and find someone willing to accompany you to an ATA shoot and juice up their numbers. Good luck with that!

 

AZCO,
Do you ever get tired of being the JOKE on here. When was the last time you added something of substance to a discussion. You mother must have been very ashamed of you if you acted this way in her presence. Put on you big boy pants and try to be a credit to you self. Roger C.

 

Don't you dare change. Keep posting the same way you have always posted.

After 12 hours at work every day your posts are just the ticket to make me relax and laugh a little.

Flyersarebest

 

Flyerarebest,
I hate to admit this but I am starting to feel sorry for him. It's like finding a stray puppy, that feeling is hard to get rid of. Roger C.

 

I have been a member of this site since February. Since then I have read and wondered why???!!! Of all the threads on here, there seems to be a very one sided view of the direction of the ATA. Almost everyone here seems to think that they are either too good, too far away from, don't care enough about, think that it is the WORST place on earth, middle of no where, waste of time Grand. Well I think you may be right. I also think that if the Grand was in your Ohio or Pennsylvania and you could get up in the morning, drive an hour and be there, shoot your targets and drive an hour home so you could do it the next day, you folks would be the happiest people in the trapshooting world. Yet, you won't go to Illinois, get a hotel, pay your entry fees, (the same amount as it would be in Ohio) drive 30 minutes, down a scenic country highway, park immediately behind the traps you were shooting on, visit the same vendors that would be there, see the same people that would be in Ohio, visit with old friends, maybe make some new ones, take a 30 minute drive back to a nice hotel, go to a nice restaurant within a block or two of the hotel, have a drink or two and good meal, and then go back to your hotel and get rested up so you could do it again the next day. BTW, that is what all the rest of the people that don't live in Ohio or Pennsylvania would be doing if the Grand were in Ohio or Pennsylvania except it's not and you are the ones who have to do what the rest of the country would have to do!!

 

Roger,

How do you think you, WPT, Family Guy and Ollieoleodog appear to me and others who share my opinion, that there is no reason to tear down the ATA just because things have not been going all that well as in the past. There are many more people who think like I do but choose not to argue with fools and bullies like I do.

You guys can grumble and cast your stones at it, or you can man up, forgive and forget and help guide the institution in the direction that will beneit all of us.

Look at the topics on the "Trap Talk" forum header and notice how many threads are anti ATA, anti Sparta and how many are topics of trap shooting in general with shared information and then tell me who is really the big joke around here?

 

$2.1 mil wasted on a barn. $700k needed to finish the job. $300k wasted on office building. I have 5 shoots that are as good in my back yard.

XT Shooter thinks I should pay double for motels. I should drive 12 hours each way and miss work to shoot for a weekend. Read the Shaw letter.

It is my money. Not taking a guilt trip.

 

That may be other people feel about moving the grand to place farther away from where we live too. I guess that is just too bad for us as long as it is in your back yard!

 

10%+/- of the active ATA members attend the Grand. That has pretty much been the case for quite some time. When it was in Vandalia, what percentage were "drive ins"? A very large number, as Vandalia had limited camp sites.

Regardless of the State/location of the Grand, there is a limited amount of people in that 10% with the financial and time flexibility to attend the event. When the venue is placed in a location that makes it more difficult for a higher percentage of shooters to attend, attendance will decline.

The ATA simply made a poor decision based on intial cost savings. Some of the decision makers isolated or even insulted other possible sites in the process, and as you say "pissed off" some of thoe trying to offer solutions. Thus there are hard feelings by a few.

Was it assumed Mid Western and Western shooters would replace those Eastern shooters now losing their flexibility or ability to Drive in? If so, blaming Ohio and Penn. shooters is wrong. You should be trying to talk more Western shooters into attending.

If the ATA decision makers couldn't figure this out, then they are due the finger pointing.

 

Rosey, I don't know how much you shot out west but I have shot the state shoots in all of those mid western states that had a state shoot worth attending, not to mention all the eastern states. In fact my favorite shoots after the grand in Vandalia ( which I traveled to from the Eastern Shore of Maryland to attend for 8 years) was Reno, Vegas, and Mo. None of these clubs were exactly next door to me in Maryland either but I seldom missed one of there big shoots in the 80's. Now today Reno is closed and Mo and Vegas shoots aren't worth attending. The ATA started going to pot before the move.

Illinois state shoot was damn near as large as Ohio, PA, and California in the 70's but went to hell when the Illinois BOD instituted a 10 or 20 dollar state membership fee to shoot ATA targets in Illinois if you were a resident. THE ILLINOIS RESENT ATA SHOOTERS at that time boycotted shooting in Illinois and attended shoots in the neighboring states. In fact this is one reason the Missouri Fall Handicap and Missouri state shoot grew so much. Would the Sparta Kool Aid crowd call those shooters, back then, ATA haters? I know because I was there during all of this. My first Mo shoot was in 1976, I went with Leo. Before I was married I often stayed at Leo's house and we shot at many small clubs in Illinois and Mo.

This move wasn't about cost it was about a few thinking that the reason the grand was successful in Ohio was the name, they thought if Illinois had the grand they would bring back Illinois to its former glory. They risked the ATA on a bet an LOST. I was told over and over WE DON'T NEED YOU, which was true until they do.

Brad Dysinger (Remember help me find Punkin)

 

To take my point a little farther......If you add all the ATA shooters in Ohio (Vandalia) and it's bordering states (Mich, Indiana, Penn, Kty, WV) you'll have a total of about 6,696 members. Do the same with Illinois (Sparta) and it's bordering states (Wisc, Missouri, Iowa, Kty, and Indiana) you'll have about 5,889 members......only 800 members difference.

So why is this a Ohio/Penn problem? Where are all these faithful members from States bordering Illinois? and why aren't the Western states sending more people to the Grand....it's closer now?

Paul Shaw's write up indicates a huge drop in attendance from his Province (15 now vs 220 past).

The shooters closer to Sparta aren't attending, but it's Ohio and Penn's fault?

 

Rosey you might be missing NY but another issue you omitted.

The EC had Barry Roach on the ATA tit selling trapshooting to the west. How many $25 dollar memberships did we need to cover his costs?
We even gave him a title. Field Operations Manager or something.

How did that work?

Here is a big atta boy to Barry.





Where would we be without his bitter Kool Aid?

 

Have not seen or heard anything of Barry for quite sometime, being as I am on "Double Secret Probation" that does not surprise me, he is glued to many of the flatlanders and kool aid drinkers in one way or another on another channel ... I don't know that he really did much other than tell everyone who he was and what his title was, maybe he is out looking at fields someplace for them to have a place to hold the grand one of these days ... He was tied in with the Sparta deal according to many people but nobody knows for sure how ... He sure humped enough legs trying to get it done, Congratulations on a job well done ... WPT ... (YAC ) ... (DSP) ...

 

Are you going to correct this and admit you were wrong?

 

Memberships are 20$

Barry has posted several times the only compensation he gets from the ATA was business cards. I commend him for trying to do something positive for our sport!

 

theloudone,
I copied and printed (pasted) exactly what is posted on the ATA (shootata.com) web site, if they do, I will, until I am using their numbers not something I dreamed up ... You might want to contact them and advise them of the error so it can be corrected ... Respectfully, WPT ... (YAC) ... (DSP) ...

We Love You Man ...

 

New York (1,072 members) does not border Ohio. Neither does Tenn. (1,479 members)....2014 numbers.

I was trying to make a fair comparison, however a true comparison of travel time would be a 500, 800, or 1000 mile radius around Sparta and Vandalia, and count the members that live with in those diameters.

At this point, that is unknown by me.

 

I feel I should clarify what I said earlier. It seems that the bulk of the griping here on AT.com are complaining that the grand left Ohio and therefore I stated what I did about the grand being farther from them. My apologies to anyone I offended by my remarks concerning Ohio and Penn., my point was more to the theory that wherever the grand ends up, if it is in your back yard you are more likely to attend and that is the crux of the location dilemma. I would like it to be 10 miles from my house also but I know that is not possible. I also wish there were more hotels and restaurants near Sparta. I also wish I was independently wealthy and could go to as many shoots as I wanted including the grand wherever it may be. My grandpa used to say " wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which one fills up first!" I guess I'll just keep wishing and maybe one day it will come true.

 

XT, No one griping here that it left Ohio....if it was deserved. I do however resent the constant claims that Ohio did nothing to keep it.

It's more about how it was done, than that it had to relocate. Anyway, that's how I see it.

 

A "Telephonic Grand" may be interesting for the All American points and option money.

What if .... one location only has one red-hair, left-hand, one-eye shooter over 106 years of age, and they break a 67/100 for a 'win' at that location, other location(s) has someone with a 95/100 for a 'win' at that location .... will they shoot-off for the win/points for the 'shoot' and maybe receive nothing for the 'location' win ?????

Option money ????? are you shooting 'location' or 'shoot' ??????

 

Now add this to the shoot-off...One state has high wind and rain and the other location it's a Blue Bird day, just saying, Is the guy shooting in picture perfect conditions and wins the shoot-off...does he really represents the better of the two...I think not. I guess the guy in the bad conditions could get an "Atta Boy" ribbon.

 

Wow, I guess now I am sorry for saying I'm sorry!!! I am not up to no good, just stating the way I feel, unless that is being up to no good.

 

Do you have to attend the shoot closest to where you live ????? Or can you go where the weather may be better, and/or where the 'better' shooters are not.

If there is a time difference, can you view scores posted at other locations to decide if you want to enter the 'shoot' ?????

Can you enter 'location only' ????, or 'targets only' for the 'shoot' ??????

 

Clearly its not an error, just the way they presented the data. I consolidated the info for you as it could be confusing.

5 Illinois 2,574,875 4.55%
AIM Grand 396,200 0.70%
Prelim. Week 1,506,150 2.66%
Grand Week 1,984,850 3.51%

TOTAL 6,462,075 11.42%

 

The above numbers representing registered birds only. At most one in six shooters in PA and OH shoot registered targets now. The growth or regrowth potential would be in those states. jmho

In Ohio it is almost an after thought. I used to shoot in a league that had 220 in Youngstown. The same folks still shoot but only about 20 shoot registered now. My Wednesday morning club will have about 50 but only 5 will have shot any registered targets this year. Telling them they are not counted as trap shooters would hurt their feelings.

They put the average cards away in 2003.

 

I think the data the ATA used to use was what state the shooter lived in, not what state the targets were shot in. I think grand targets are attributed to the state the shooter is from on one hand and the club gets the credit for throwing them on the other. When I Was on the OSTA board about 40% of the targets thrown were shot by non residents. I believe the 2,574,875 is the number of ata targets Illinois residents shot no matter where at last year. 6,462,075 would be the total registered targets shot in Illinois from whomever from wherever. Brad

 

Brad,

Like you have said before, the only way that the ATA group would be done is when the money runs out. The only way to move on is to quit funding the ATA with dues and fees from the shoots.

We need a start so that those who want to shoot can make the move over to another organization. Until that time comes along they will continue to support the ATA because they are the only game in town.

These people sight politics, people etc for the reason they don't get involved, but they will move to the new organization when those people who carre and know what is going make the move.

Then the new governing body will take off and the ATA will fade out with thier group of executives. In 50 or so years it will have to start all over again because people will forget and the self appointed experts will be in charge again.

IMHO

 

"the ATA group would be done is when the money runs out." .... not going to happen that way.

When the Donald Trump want-to-be's let their greed open the door for the IRS or the State of Illinois to 'take' it, is when the "money runs out".

"Charitable Corporation" to the current leaders means lining their own pockets as "Charitable", the IRS has a different view.

https://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non...-Requirements-Section-501(c)(3)-Organizations

"The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction."

Here for the people in never-never land wanting "ATA members" to contact Illinois to keep the play-land open. "Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

"Organizations created for the purpose of philanthropic rather than pecuniary pursuits."....legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

"6
G. CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS
The ATA is organized under the Corporate Laws of the State of Illinois and
has a Illinois Charter and Corporate By-laws formulated in accordance with
Illinois law, as a not-for-profit public charitable corporation. The ATA has
also been recognized and approved under Internal Revenue Code (IRC)
as a fully tax exempt 501(c)(3) charitable entity" ....... https://www.shootata.com/Portals/0/pdf/ata_rulebook_web.pdf

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/rr64-182.pdf
"Rev. Rul. 64-182, 1964-1 C.B. 186
A corporation organized exclusively for charitable purposes
derives its income principally from the rental of space in a large
commercial office building which it owns, maintains and operates.
The charitable purposes of the corporation are carried out by
aiding other charitable organizations, selected in the discretion
of its governing body, through contributions and grants to such
organizations for charitable purposes. Held, the corporation is
deemed to meet the primary purpose test of section
1.501(c)(3)-1(e)(1) of the Income Tax Regulations, and to be
entitled to exemption from Federal income tax as a corporation
organized and operated exclusively for charitable purposes within
the meaning of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of
1954, where it is shown to be carrying on through such
contributions and grants a charitable program commensurate in
scope with its financial resources.
An organization may not consider itself exempt from tax
merely because it falls within the scope of this Revenue Ruling.
In order to establish its status, an organization claiming
exemption under section 501(c)(3) of the Code should file its
application on Form 1023, Exemption Application, with the District
Director of Internal Revenue for the internal revenue district in
which is located the principal office of the organization. See
section 1.501(a)-1 of the Income Tax Regulations.

 

"Telephonic Grand" - - phone lines have been disconnected in Sparta. Matt "keyboard Rambo" Parker will be angry.

 

Telephonic shoot or not it would be nice to hear from the BOD or the EC.

 

Everything has changed. Some better, most worse, but years ago a lot
Of women DID.not work. Now most work and want to know and are
Entitled to know about their family income and expenditures.
Before the husbands could buy a new gun, and some never told anything
About the purchase. We have heard some crazy stories, such as roping
The new gun upstairs, yes, this is the truth
Also, many husbands died and (friends?) would do the widow a favor.
And buy the deceased"s gun at a greatly reduced price.
Now, most wives are informed about money matters
Therefore there is less money to spend on TRAP.
Also we all know how much it costs to raise and educate
A family.
All of the above are tied into the reduction of shooting trap.
Right now, we can't complain about the price of gas
and the reason that so many of our shooters are older people.

More some other time about the 200 bird shoots that we who are
OLD cannot handle any more

My appologies for such a long tirade?

Greta c

 

If the grand was a telephonic shoot it would be a total disaster, and probably never go past the first year for obvious reasons that have been stated many times over in the course of this thread ... Trap shooters have very short memories but stack the deck against them in any way and watch out ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Many years ago the PITA was negotiating with the Evergreen Sportsmans Club in Littlerock, Washington, for the PITA Grand Pacific. Time was running out and an agreement, or a decision, had yet to be made by either side. Unable to come to terms with the Evergreen Sportsmans Club in time for the Grand, the PITA decided to do the PITA Grand telephonic. The two clubs chosen were the Medford Gun Club, and the Hillsboro Gun Club, both in Oregon. Immediately, there were problems. The Canadian shooters that normally attended the Grand in Washington ( a truly significant number of the past Grand entries) decided to not participate at either club, due largely to the logistics, but also due to splitting it up between the two clubs. The day the Grand started, the weather between the two clubs could not have been more opposite. Medford enjoyed 100 degree heat, zero wind, and bright sunny skies, while Hillsboro had high winds, storm clouds, and rain off and on for the entire week. Guess where the winning scores all came from during that Grand week? It was a total fiasco, not only for the shooters, but also for the PITA EC which had no choice if they wanted the Grand to go off as planned. I think that, given the choice today, the EC would just cancel the Grand for that year rather than have to experience it all again. They all busted their butts to try to make it work and it just didn't. Having a telephonic shoot shot over different clubs is not the way to do it. It makes it fairer for some, and not so fair for others. In order to find out who the best shooters are (Which is what the Grand is all about, right?) all the shooters must shoot the same targets, same traps, and same facilities. Trust me: Splitting up the Grand is not the answer.... Been there, done that, and will NEVER do it again...