Is it time to create another organization?

Ya know Dawg, I just asked myself where all that prize money is coming from. I have to admit that while I am a member of the NSCA I don’t know much about how they conduct business. In fact, I didn’t know that the main event is actually 300 birds not 200. Perhaps the NSCA uses the target fees from that extra 100 targets to fund the added money? Here’s a few other ideas on how they can offer all that prize money:

1. For the last several years the ATA has reported a profit from the Grand tournament of roughly 300K each year. Perhaps the NSCA, instead of paying out extravagant bonuses with their profit, use a portion of it as prize money?

2. Maybe the NSCA doesn’t pay 5 or 6 Executives to travel around the country and shoot each year? That would more than cover the prize fund!

3. Maybe the NSCA doesn’t buy a 25K gun each year for an EC member?

4. Perhaps since a quasi communist state doesn’t own their home grounds the NSCA makes more $$$ from their Nationals and shares that with the shooters as prize money?

5. Maybe the NSCA is just better at attracting sponsors and can afford to give some money back to the shooters?

I’ve got a few other ideas on where the prize money could be coming from but since it’s all speculation I’ll stop there. Here is a question for you Dawg. We always talk about how important location is. Are the NSCA Nationals held at the same club that hosts or used to host one of those ATA Saddle Light grands (I know I misspelled it) where they couldn’t draw shooters?

 

Very good points Don. I like how you think. Points 2, 3 and 5 are well taken. I'm just a duffer Sporting Clays shooter and have no interest in registering my scores or pretend to know the ins and outs of how they function but it sure might be interesting. But, maybe a trip to Krieghoff Intenational and having a talk with the boys and girls I might acquire some insight.

 

Count me as one of them.

In my opinion SC's are just more fun. Trap is redundant, we have seen every target presentation thousands of times. Sure the backgrounds change with different locations, but the basic target presentations remain the same although each club has its quirks.

You will say that SC target presentations are also all the same, and you would be correct. But the impact of different courses is huge, it can make the targets look like something you have not experienced before due to the layout of the course and the differences in the terrain. As a trapshooter, I found this to be a breath of fresh air. In addition, the vibe of the shooters of SC is quite different from those shooting trap, way less grumpy for lack of a better description. Perhaps Mr. Cogan can chime in on his take on that.

I still shoot trap every week but I do so to see all my old trapshooting buddies.

But slowly but surely I am seeing some of those buddies more often on the SC course.

 

I cannot name any top local trapshooters that gravitated to Sporting Clays. Most Sporting shooters were average Joes that never came close to mastering any trap discipline where perfection is expected. Sporting Clays if mostly fun and Trap is hard work. Work is a bad 4 letter word to most people.

 

The "grumpy" Trapshooters are those that couldn't buy their way out of a LOFT problem ..... not those living their dream ......

It would be hard to imagine someone being "grumpy" if they were just handed a large check, keys and title to a new car, or silver and gold, or, or .......

 

Don the Sparta shoot is off more than 50 per cent, don't suger coat it. The Ohio state shoot had about 50 per cent as many in the handicap as it did back when we were on the board and gave away cars, shells, guns, and money even with no AAA points, Who could see that coming? I almost forgot about the Harley and the free hog roasts and fish for the kids. But those AA points make up for all that, ollie I can't understand were those 50 per cent of Ohio Handicap shooters went in 12 years could you tell me?

 

At the PA State Sporting Clays shoot this year I saw Don Shaffer JR and John Manetta Jr on a squad together, seems someone else I recognized from trap shooting was with them, as well, but I can’t remember who it was. Not sure if they still shoot trap, as I haven’t been to Elysburg in a few years, but they were shooting sporting that weekend.

 

Does anyone know who is getting paid 'under the table' to keep that place open ?????

After many years of bleeding tons of tax dollars, and no current plan for a better future ..... something doesn't smell right .....

The idiots of the ATA are having a good time riding the poor old cash cow until it dies ..... but ..... what is in it for the State of Illinois ???????

 

Manetta is moving out West and both still shoot Trap.

 

Brad, most of those guys quit or died. Afterall, the average number of years a new shooter participated in ATA Trap was always estimated to be around 3 years. Maybe I'm glad I never won one of those Ford Pintos we gave away as prizes.

 

the ata isnt a cash cow.
its a 'cash hog.'

 

Brad, 90% of the shooters we started with are dead. It happens.

 

The average ATA shooter in the past only lasted 3 years but they were replaced with new shooters each year. The ATA quit that when they made the targets eaiser, the money less, the guns more expensive, and the age of the average shooter 70. The ATA I joined was about competition and money, the ATA of the last 30 years was about OLD, FAT MEN, showing off their high dollar guns, standing on a yardage that they had no business on and breaking 80's. That is what happened to the ATA, it's true that the shooters I started with are mostly gone but they were never replaced. Those shooters the ATA should have had are shooting Sporting Clays.

 

Brad, the targets were made easier in the 80's. Take someone to a trapshoot today and he's probably embarrassed to show off his Mossberg 500 or home defense shotgun and leaves, never to be seen again. Old fat men from 30 years ago are long gone. Some of us remember when it was great fun to hit the bars and restaurants until the wee hours and still make it out shooting the next day. Try that now and you'll likely end up with a DUI. We were all young once. So, the drinking and party crowd now own an expensive motor home and party at the shoot. Not everyone thinks this is great fun. Maybe you should try that again and see how it feels?

Meanwhile, you had a golden opportunity as TD at Cardinal Center to personally make those targets as difficult as necessary to lower scores and bring back those huge payoffs. Why didn't you?

 

I’m not Brad, but that ain’t fair- if one club/shoot throws the harder targets in today’s ATA with today’s shooters, the club would go bankrupt. The problem was when the easier targets became the norm, to satisfy some shooter’s egos that couldn’t cut the mustard on 3-hole targets. Not sure what your drinking analogy has to do with targets or anything to do with the strife of the ATA today.

I’ll bet if you won a car back in the day, you would be proud of it regardless of make/model.

 

You said both are still shooting trap, but I looked them up on the ATA website and it looks like they are shooting a lot less trap in the last year or so…

 

Times changed and no new organization can reverse the decline in ATA Trapshooting's numbers. Once upon a time changing target standards was tried, it lasted one year and was voted against almost unanimously by the delegates the following year. I was asked by the powers at the top for my opinion at the time and I replied-do it-my mistake I suppose. Shooters voted with their feet and target totals dropped drastically. So, you're saying we should try creating another organization while bankrupting the current one by throwing targets no one wants? What's not fair, if the answer is making targets tougher, using one club as a showpiece to prove your point and having the opportunity to try it but refuse then who's wrong?

 

No, I never said anything about creating a new organization, I picked a new one- the NSCA, which wasn’t because of either organization if I’m being honest- I just started enjoying sporting clays more. The part that isn’t fair is all the clubs throw easy targets now, the average ATA shooter doesn’t want challenged, they want to break good scores and will go wherever they can do that at. Having said that, when all clubs threw 3-hole targets, the playing field was level- and it was challenging enough that the scores were spread out enough so that playing options made sense.

 

10-point, Oleo was one of the earliest setters of fluff targets. He ramped up his 16 yrd. average that way. You will never get him a say it was a mistake.
And the officials of the ATA were aware of the fluff targets and did nothing about the clubs that were doing it. They are to blame along with the cheaters. The B.O.D. are just as guilty, they did not enforce the rules. Roger C.

 

The average ATA shooter never saw or shot anything but what's been thrown for the last 40 years. So, just denying the numbers dropped significantly the year it was changed doesn't change the result-no one wanted them. BTW, if you never broke a AA or AAA Singles average in your entire lifetime what makes you think making targets more difficult will make you a winner? The biggest change that made scoring much higher for top long yardage shooters was the addition of voice callers. Life changes and no new organization can fix it nor can you make winners out of losers.

 

The numbers for the ATA have been dropping significantly for a long time, after 2005ish seemed to have quite a decrease for some reason, I can’t imagine why…

The shooters have been shooting what has been thrown because you can’t set your own targets at a shoot. It’s time you realized not everyone is saying that harder targets will make them a winner, it’s that the scores will be more spread out and the average guy might play some more options because he might have the day of his life or just break a 50 in handicap and pay for his week of shooting (or more). Remember those days? I do, I kinda miss them, too.

 

So, Mr. Joe Average breaks an 87% Handicap average and that average drops down to an 84% on a tougher target-that's the real end result. Let's all go back to ancient times (post dinosaur) In 1975 Dan Bonillas led the ATA with a 95.01 Handicap average on 8,050 targets. In 2022 Pat Lamont led the ATA Handicap averages with a 96.13 on only 3,000 targets. So, that 1% difference over a span of 50 years requires a fix-I doubt it. That Bonillas guy (whoever he is) must only have shot easier targets according to some. I'd say many of those doing the crying are unable to find suckers willing to donate their weekly grocery money anymore so they lobby for a change.

 

BTW Brad, MD and VA on the East coast paid very well, shooters played the options and payoffs were great. That was back in the 90's and the targets were fluffballs. In those days FL options paid little and shooting there was mostly recreation-just like today. See a pattern evolving even then?

 

You’re good at looking up averages, but how much did Bonillas win in 1975 with a 1% lower average than Lamont this year? Ahhh, now we see a difference.

 

Yep, I agree 100% Roger.

 

So, the fish died! Time to clean the tank. Good, send your weekly grocery check to Bonillas. I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

 

I certainly hope Bonillas made more money in '75 than Lamont in 2022. Bonillas shot 5,000 more targets.

 

Who do you think made more per handicap event?

 

Well, I’d rather him have it and me to think I had a chance to break even every once in a while versus giving it to the ATA that took that away.

 

There seems to be a part you continually keep missing. Nearly all the ATA delegates voted against it the following year it was initiated. Remember-the delegates, your representatives, voted it down. So, your complaint is with the delegates and no keyboard complaint to a choir can change anything. If the issue is so important along with saving the current ATA and supposedly bringing back the money, just start a grassroots campaign beginning with your delegate-if you can understand him.

 

I didn’t miss anything, Oleo. I said I didn’t want my money going to the ATA, and I’m voting/speaking with my wallet by not shooting any more. Saving the ATA doesn’t seem possible anymore, that ship has sailed and whatever it is today, isn’t the ATA I used to enjoy. Now, I shoot sporting clays and shoot some trap games.

 

We're finally mostly on the same page. If my kid and sometimes my wife didn't show interest I'd probably make very, very few shoots anymore. Most of the guys I started with are dead or quit shooting. It was a fun ride but all things must end. Besides, it's too much work to maintain high averages when you only shoot 50 target local shoots and your arthritis slows you down. Well, better to be a has been then a never was been.

 

if you think about it, the new organization is (in an indirect way,) the local clubs.
i predicted this over a decade ago when i saw it happening, and now that we are really aging out, travel and cost seems to be pushing shooters back to closer and smaller shoots.
i can attest to being ragged by the internet shooters for decades, over my desire to support local ranges.
and now that ata/nssa is faltering, all of a sudden my suggestion seems to be coming true. (though the big shooters and venues will never admit i was right! :>)
when a ship goes down, either you get in a lifeboat or you ride the sinking ship down in luxury.
i'll take the lifeboat. heck, i'll take the lifejacket and get wet.

 

"And 95% of the participants go home empty handed.

How has this percentage change from the 1960's to the present day?

 

Interesting that Americantrapshooter.com was created as a response to a website’s degradation into a name-calling, insult-flinging closed group of egoists.
This thread might make one think that Americantrapshooter is headed down the same road.
Really sad.

 

Joe don't forget me asking you what you were going to do about it when you got thrown off twice in a week for reporting on the grudge match for me. The good old days/

 

Regardless, let's hope ATS.com lives a long and healthy life.
And it will if we all heed the Golden Rule.

 

Joe,
I heard the same thing about a target requirement for the privilege of speaking at the annual meeting. I’ve attended my last meeting so I’ll leave it to you to fight the good fight. And now that a post induction morality clause has been successfully used to oust a H.O.F. member, watch for that same tactic to be applied to our elected Directors. If they don’t like who the members elect they will toss ‘‘em off the board for moral turpitude. I wonder how they will institute such a bylaw without a vote by the general membership? Stay tuned folks, it’s gonna be a bumpy ride!

 

So ...... When will a cyber "morality clause" be used against present and/or future "H.O.F. member(s)" ??????

Will 'bashing' the ATA et al in cyber-land be grounds for violating a "morality clause" ??????