ATA Held Hostage ---Week 1

At midnight Sparta will be closed. Did anyone turn out the lights?

 

I don't know.... I posted a sign on the door.....

 

WSRC privatizing story from 2014:

http://www.newsjs.com/url.php?p=www...cle_32affb49-d572-5324-89fc-c2e81e914acb.html

This might be what they do with it, but I'm not sure how a private company can make money on operations while still being able to pay off the $50 million used to build it.

 

If they gave the WSRC away some investment group would have to have a huge bank roll to support the WSRC in hopes of ever turning it around, which could not be done in 11 plus years ... The WSRC has had 10, make that 11 years to prove it worthy and so far all it has done is cost the State of Illinois more tax dollars, which now far exceeds the $22,000,000 tax dollars ($22 million) it has cost the state for 10 years of operation and maintainance over and above what it has generated ... The area is not a draw even to those who would come there for the purpose of shooting the grand American, which can best be described as the biggest little shoot in the world today ... If they did privitize the WSRC that would only defer the cost to the buyers rather that the State absorb the loss ... Initially projected cost was $50,000,000 ( $50 Million) dollars but according to the States web site they have invested $31.4 (31.7) million dollars to date ... The date of projected completetion was to be 10 years which would of been this year, so obviously there is much to be done at the site to complete it ... I doubt Trump would consider taking the place and making a golf course out of it with the possible number of golfers from the immediate area, which if tripled compared to trapshooters would add up to 15/20 which is probably exagerated a little bit (giving the benefit of the doubt) ... It will be interesting, thats for sure ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You forgot to add in the economic impact to the area. A lot of tax payer money goes into projects, not for profit, per se, but for the increase in the local economy and increased sales tax revenue.

 

Does the ATA and its membership feel like they're entitled to be a burden on the taxpayers of Illinois? Does the ATA and its membership believe they're entitled to some form of shooting welfare?

How much has sales tax revenue increased in Randolph County, Illinois since the WSRC went in?

The Illinois Sales tax rate is 6.25%. Assuming all of the collected sales tax went to the State and none was retained by the municipalities or Randolph County, ATA members would have to have spent $992,000,000 in Randolph County since 2005 to cover the initial $50 million and the additional $12 million of WSRC spending.

Divided by 11, and that's $90 million, a year, of local spending by ATA members. Do you see $90 million in spending?

 

A few thousand members attend the Grand, about 3,400. Each attendee would have to spend $26,524 over two weeks, every year, in the local Randolph County economy for the State to get to break even with sales tax revenue.

Do you see each attendee spending $26,524 in town?

 

1. I don't know those figures, do your own research.

2. Where do you come up with the idea that the was an expected 10 year ROI

3. You're only talking sales tax revenue. You forgot about the business there that increase their income, then pay taxes. It's a chain reaction, that's why states put up seed money.

To get an idea of economic impact go here; http://thesouthern.com/news/local/t...cle_7b22d16c-8708-11e3-a481-0019bb2963f4.html

 

It appears that the Il. State government is starting to ask around if anyone else can see the "white elephant" in Sparta's living room.....

 

There was an article regarding economic impact and it stated there was no subsantical difference realized in the general area so the economic impact theory went out the window with that ... There are standards they use to predict sales tax revenues and it said that the sales have gone down based on the reported tax's paid in and around Sparta ... The claims of 20/30 million dollar economic impact are so over exagerated its rediculous and only a part of the "Fantastic Direction" program being considered and pondered by the industry ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It's O.K. Relax. Don't feel embarrassed for not knowing.

Illinois Policy has done the research. Not only does Sparta not see $26,524 in spending, per attendee, the below was found:

"After the World Shooting and Recreation Complex opened in the summer of 2006, the raw sales tax data from the City of Sparta shows a slight decline in sales tax receipts in following years."

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/repo...sparta-world-shooting-and-recreation-complex/

 

There is not enough businesses in the Sparta Area for shooters to spend their money. No major Resturants, just for starters

 

The people I talked to from the local area will disagree with that statement!

 

That's an unverified puff piece from the local homer paper.

"The Grand American Trap Shooting Championships brings 12,000 to 15,000 people to the region in August each day of the 10-day event..."

No sources are provided. This is a ridiculous assertion that's just one-sided public relations.

"and the economic impact to the area is estimated at $10 million, according to Art Ashbrook, executive director of the World Shooting and Recreation Complex."

Again, worthless. $10 million, per what? Year? Decade? Century? I'm not sure how an Executive Director of a gun range gets to be an economic expert, so I'd love to see the research and independent, unbiased, verification. Unverified public relations statements are worthless.

"Recreational shooting drives the complex the rest of the year with some counts estimating as many as 2 million visitors per year to the Randolph County shooting complex. Black Friday is one of the complex’s biggest days, according to Ashbrook."

More worthlessness. Why do we need to "estimate?" Why can't we just post the exact figures? Did the Southern ask for verified attendance rolls?

You should find a better story that verifies its sources and figures.

At what cost economic impact? What marginal dollar of economic benefit in Sparta does every dollar spent by the State at the WSRC yield? It would be cheaper for the State annually to drop a million dollars of cash in the center of Sparta for distribution to all its residents than it would be to keep the WRSC open.

 

Exageration on top of another exageration , like the beat goes on ... They can keep saying it, but that don't make it come true ... The State of Illinois can probably tell what the economic impact is, but would be to embaressed to say ... The people running off about how many millions look like a bunch of fools to those who would know better ...

12,000 to 15,000 people to the region on a daily basis is totally rediculous even if you count those just passing through ... 2 million visitors per year, another total exageration even if they count the people who got lost and eneded up there ...

I find it very difficult to believe that any of the local people would have the means to calculate the increase of and or decrease of taxes in the immediate area ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

First of all, I'd expand the radius to 45 miles, to be realistic.

Secondly, I wouldn't listen to anything from a right wing corporate organization, that's only goal is to lower the taxes for their corporate overlords, That will try and discredit any public works project.

So everyone else' numbers are wrong because you don't believe them?

You don't think a merchant can look at the Z out on the till, at the end of the day, when a shoot is there, and when one isn't?

 

Whose numbers? What numbers? Show me some numbers. Real numbers. Verified. Audited. Not testimonial or estimated.

Let's see some real numbers. The real numbers we have don't look good for the WRSC. You say there's other numbers. Let's see them.

Real numbers, please. How many State dollars have to be spent at the WRSC to give the merchant an extra dollar of revenue?

Wasn't the WSRC built under the promise it would lower taxes? Why hasn't it live up to its promise?

This is new. Was the WSRC built as a public works project that was anticipated to lose money, but would give some economic relief to rural Illinois?

From the press releases I've seen, Illinois built the WSRC under the boast that it would make money for the State and lower taxes.

Does the ATA need to be the recipient of public welfare to survive? Does every member of the ATA want to be an indirect welfare recipient of the Illinois' taxpayers?

 

How do you get to 992 million?

30 million to construct, and lets sat 2 million annually to maintain.

that brings your 92 million annually to only 5 million (30 million over 10 yrs and the annual 2 million) and 1470/shooter, which seems reasonable.

 

Multiplied by every year it's open.

Each annual deficit is added to the original funding and is added to the State's operating budget requiring additional financing to service.

What do you have in the way of actual sales tax receipts showing that the loss is overcome by Randolph County sales tax that is increased over the pre-WRSC baseline?

It's really a simple Math problem.

 

even so, 992 million is way off. they could rebuild the whole place for that each year.

Also, most buildings are depreciated over a 30 year life. Equipment 5 years. And land never depreciates.

I find it a false argument to present the total cost over 10 years as high as you have.

At the end of the day, you are correct its up the whims of IL politicians to keep the place open. Its also a find place to shoot, just kind of stinks there is not much around it.

I also dont buy the revenue numbers. I paid 700 to camp, 500 in ammo, 965 in targets, a few hundred at sparta walmart, went to a couple restaurants etc. without the shoot i would have spent zero in IL this year. Im sure Im not alone.

The long and short is, the place is a political frisbee, and a fine place to shoot. People are just not willing to accept change.

IL had a total budget of 65.9 billion for fiscal year 2015. The 2 million to operate the WRSC is 3 millionth of a percent. If you take the average household income of the US of 51,939 and apply that to the budget of IL, operating WRSC would cost you right around 4 bucks. If one of you can honestly say 4 bucks affects you annually, you should not be shooting.

http://www2.illinois.gov/gov/budget...ok/FY 2015 Illinois Operating Budget Book.pdf

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=average household income

 

FG,
Get some reading comprehension skills. Where are all your numbers? You're just always going to argue, at any cost.

Let me put this as succinct as possible, decisions were made for the benefit of the whole membership not just you, the Grand is never going back to Ohio. You should have put in as much complaining, use of circular logic with made up numbers when the ATA was told to hit the road.

 

The thread is not about numbers.
Also please show me a post where Ohioans are jumping up and down trying to replace one of their shoots with the shoot in Illinois. As I see it the CC is booked.

The post is only about the fact that Sparta was closed by the State of Illinois. It was not closed by a person from Ohio.

It was closed for the benefit of Illinois.

If you look at my previous posts I have predicted it would be Texas or AZ. The breezes are warm in Texas.

 

The State of Illinois claims the operation and maintainance cost of the WSRC is $3 million annually, claims the facility generates $1.1 Million for a defitcit of $1.9 million dollars per year (annually) , that in the past 10 years the WSRC has cost the State of Illinois $22,000,000 (PLUS) dollars besides what it has generated ... That is not taking into account 2015, as the numbers are not yet available on the States web site ...

If you use your numbers of $700 for camping, $500 for ammo , $965 for targets, lets say another $3,000 (little generous) for food and incidentals, dining out with tip , you would come up with $5165 for a total expenditure ... How many people who attended the grand american do you honestly think spent that much money or more ..?

Thanks for your Support, by the way for shopping at WalMart ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Thats right, Wal Mart trucks their employees, power, real estate tax in from China as well. Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks for your Support, by the way for shopping at WalMart ... WPT ... (YAC) ...[/QUOTE]

 

Leonidas posted they are shooting this week at the center.

What does the IDNR know? The liberals are working out a deal with the socialists in Chicago. The mob is moderating the meeting. Stay tuned.

 

Gotta love that walmart, I really like the next to the last paragraph.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...hours-after-pay-raise-boosts-costs/ar-AAdNo5l

 

Maybe the mob should run the WSRC. Look what they did for Vegas.

 

The mob proved they could get folks with money to travel to a hot desert. No one can attract a large crowd in Sparta.

 

Though there are many positions at WalMart that could and should be life long jobs, for the most part WalMart is a training center to give people a chance at making a better life for themself and their family's ... I don't know how anyone could find fault with that, but thats if the person has the desire to move up in the working mans (or Ladies) business world today ... WalMart employs a lot of people who would not be employable at higher level positions in many other companys so they provide a stepping stone to encouragment and give people confidence to do better for themself and in turn their familys ... WalMart increased pay scales and added more people to make up the differential in the hours being cut to provide more training for more people ... WalMart is a real life business that wants people to go forth and make something out of themself rather than sit at home and collect welfare, and vote for a democrate when it comes time to vote ... WalMart provides for over 50% (closer to 75%) of the people in Sparta, Illinois in one way or another , so they must be doing something right ... I rest my case, see you soon at your local WalMart, where if they don't have it, you probably don't need it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You are on too something there. The Martian's money sure didn't work.

 

Wait until you go to,J&T excaiber. You can have poor service,and raw meat!

 

This months Sparta shoot will probably be about the same size whether the World Shooting Complex is opened or closed. Someone told me that Sparta had 19 listed sex offenders, seems a better place for a skeet club to me. How many ATA members live in Sparta? If Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were trap shooters which web site would they be on? How long before the ATA has a husband and husband trophy at the grand? I think Dr. Longshot should have his own heading on here, or maybe Dr. Longshot and BigDon together. Do you use 7 1/2's or 8's? Wait a minute I need to ask that on the other site, not here. Sorry lost my head there. Brad

 

Brad,
I thought you got kicked out of the other site. Wait a minute...maybe it was the HoF that you got kicked out of. I'm sure I read that somewhere on the internet so it must be true! And did I also read that you tried shooting against Berlet for food? What the hell were you thinking? Did you just use Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton in the same sentence? Is that legal?

Don

 

The sum result of state subsidized shooting in an anti-gun state. What did you think was going to happen?

 

http://www.city-data.com/so/so-Marengo-Ohio.html

15 registered sex offenders. 23 to 1 ratio of citizens verse sex offenders.

http://www.city-data.com/so/so-Sparta-Illinois.html

19 registered sex offenders. 226 to 1 ratio of citizens verse sex offenders.

 

As per the map-- the sex offenders listed for Marengo are spread all over the county. The Sparta sex offenders are closer to the skeet range.

 

The Cardinal got the choice between skeet and the adult book store at the interchange, they chose the bookstore. A better class of more dependable people I heard said. Brad

 

I heard that too......I can't remember where.

 

Who pays the insurance on the $2.1 million HOF building? Is it possible to insure a building you do not own? Do insurance rates go up if the building is vacant?

 

Better chance to get tee times in August next year than presquadding.

 

This is part of the fantastic direction. Word from a friend near the complex. It is not going to re open.

 

I've bumped up the whole series for my personal fun, and for anyone who can't remember (don't want too) the last month and all that's been right and wrong. I note the lack of the kool aid crowd, has anyone checked the HOF pole barn most cult's ends are messy and stinky. Brad

 

No big deal right? You guys in the OH-PA have a new facility ready by August 2016, right?

 

AZCOTRAP You're trolling aren't you?. The Cardinal Center was in fact up and throwing registered trap targets before Sparta opened, and it appears likely, will be throwing trap targets after Sparta closes.

The SCTP event is already scheduled for later this month. Non registered by the way. You should google Cardinal Center Camp Ground or OSTA there is some wonderful info on the net.

The guys from PA also have a large trap spot of their own at Elysburg and I'd check out the PA web site too if I were you. There is a lot more current trap shooting info out there than the 7 1/2 or 8's that you read about on the kool aid site.

Believe it or not shooters here aren't clamoring for the so called grand back. The EC pretty much killed that goose 10 years ago. We are doing fine.

So you see the guys in PA and OHIO pretty much have you covered already but thanks for the opportunity. This is just as much fun as my bump was yesterday. Brad

 

Nope, not trolling. Jut asking a legitimate question. Everything in place, facilities, owners, ready willing and able, Grand will be held at either of the two places you mentioned, no belly aching or griping by anybody about being too far, lack of accomindations, food, recreation.

Sparta dead, buried, services held, majority of ATA membership approves through their delegates, we are all set for 2016?

A thought came to me this morning....do we even need The Grand? Let's just hold our State, Zone and Satellite Grands and be done with it. Do we really need The Grand? Do we really need Grand Champions with 2 dozen categories? Think of all this upheaval and discontent we have had the last dozen years and can eliminate by just letting the Grand die.

 

The shoots at the CC are not satellite grands. They are not zone shoots.

They are bigger.

 

Family Guy,

Fine, you are bigger, we are smaller, neener, neener, neener, you say. We can only do what we can do. You have more shooters in Ohio than 5 Western States combined, heard that before. But there are shooters all over the country who are ATA members who do not go to the CC, never will and it will not have any negative impact on their lives shooting ATA targets elsewhere in the country.

My question was do we even need a Grand?

 

AZ

My statement to you only implied the name "grand" no longer means GRAND. Also the CC is not about OH shooters. See Stuarts stats.

 

Jesus, FM, you really make it difficult to hold a conversation, don't you

I was attempting to propose a simple premise with out all the usual, "I'm better than you, we are bigger, better, EC bad, ATA bad, blah, blah, blah blah." Just forget it.

 

AZCOTRAP,
In case you missed it there has not been a grand (as we knew it) for over 15 years, so to answer your question ... There is no need for a grand which has been proven time and time again even since before the move to Sparta, Ill , but confirmed by that move ... The ATA took it upon them self to basically eliminate the grand for many members (Shooters) by make a move without a business plan, which was made against the will of the supporting members and that put the grand in a death spiral ... The other shoots you mention seem to be holding their own and are not on shaky ground if you look at the attendance figures while the attendance in Sparta has not yet seen it worse days ... If the WSRC re opens it will be very difficult to breath new life back into a facility that has not been able to hold its own for 11 years of operation ... Its not a good thing for trapshooting but its not the worse thing that could happen if the grand can be revitalized in another location ...

The ATA is not in a position to buy or build a facility and take the chance of breaking the bank so to speak ... There is nothing that can be done to create the interest that would be needed if they could buy the WSRC for pennies on the dollar as it would continue to lose money and eventually eliminate (deplete) the money the ATA has on hand ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

AZCO
No one has implied bigger or better. Only implied more successful. Much of that is location. Located near the shooters. It also implies that those in the shooting meccas, which is not sparta, understand how to market trapshooting.

My answer is that the word grand doesnt matter now as like WPT says....a Grand hasnt existed for 15 years.

 

I agree with you AZCOTRAP some. The Grand is not the most important job the ATA had it was to promote TRAP shooting. The thing about the name grand is think of it as a brand name. Cadillac is a brand of GM car. When customers think of Cadillac they have a picture of a car they see in their mind of a certain style and certain quality. Everyone, I dare say thinks in the same way. Now if GM started marketing vegas, or cavaliers, or pick ups as Cadillacs they would in a few short years destroy that "Cadillac" brand image. This is what all the satellite grands have done to the Grand American "cheapened" is appeal. To today's shooters the grand means different things in different areas. The brand has been tarnished and is becoming irrelevant.

If this EC cares about trap shooting they will listen an simplify the rules, go back to when trap shooting was growing, go to 60's and 70's rules for example. Ask the historybuff what was done back then. So AZCOTRAP I'm with you let the grand die, the Dumbest thing to do would be to hold a telephonic grand so that's what I'm betting the EC does. The EC hasn't done anything smart for 30 years that I can remember, if you can think of something they've done smart that's worked out bring it up. I would think that something they've said or done since 85 has proven true or effective, I just can't think of anything. Just a steady drip of stupid. Brad