Cardinal Shot Screen (down again) PICTURE

A friend sent this picture of the shot screen at Cardinal. Like it or hate it I think we can all agree the wind in Ohio has played havoc with the screen and support poles over the years. Full disclosure, I really like shooting against the screen backdrop. Having said that I think it might be time to try some other ideas. We could draw for banks. I would really like to see a throwback to the old shoot and move several traps, repeat. How about trying a shoot where you get whatever post and squad is given you, shoot and move down the line and shoot doubles the old 30/20 way? If they have to replace lots of poles and they want to keep the screen how about moving it towards the traps to eliminate some of current height issues. Just some random thoughts.

 

I have never been to the Cardinal Center (yet). On my bucket list for sure. Was the reason the shot screens were erected to make the background universal, or for lead reclamation? Did the shot go onto property not owned by the Center and they had to put those up? It seems the wind plays heck with them fairly easily and living here in the mid-west we can get some very strong winds. I feel sorry for those folks/owners as I bet the costs and repairs can get pricey.

 

Broken poles?

 

bdp20,

Perhaps Brad D. will have better insight into Mr. Fishburn’s thinking at the time he decided to erect the screen. At that time there wasn’t an issue with lead falling on other property because Mr. Fishburn owned it all. Mr. Fishburn was a tremendous businessman and perhaps knew someday the shot fall area could be an issue.

I can tell you from a shoot management perspective that there was a big issue with shooters avoiding banks 5, 6 and sometimes even bank 7 before the screen went up. Often banks 5 and 6 would be nearly empty but still had to be fully staffed with score keepers and loaders. This not only wasted direct labor dollars on those banks but it also extended the length of time each event took as the other banks would have several squads remaining to shoot while banks 5 & 6 sat empty. It’s easy to say we could have just moved those extra squads to banks 5 & 6 but that isn’t a fair way to deal with the problem. After the screen went up banks 5 & 6 became the preferred banks! At a facility this large with a varied background, I believe a shot screen is the fairest way to solve the problem.

The lead recovery is nothing short of darn impressive! Shot hits the screen and drops onto a paved path. Sweeper scoops it up. Much cleaner for the environment and certainly a huge financial consideration for any club contemplating a shot screen. At today’s lead prices I’d say lead hitting the screen has to sound like money to the owners.

Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, the screen was placed too far from the trap houses. The extra distance decreases the effect of the shot hitting the screen thus prolonging screen life. However, extra distance also allows the sight line from shooter to target to rise above the top of the screen. The screen has faded to a light grey allowing the club to combat this issue with orange dome or New York style targets. I loved all orange against the screens when they were new and dark! I know I didn’t answer your question other than to say “yes” to all the reasons you stated for the screen.

 

I was told that the Ohio EPA was threatening Jack with "unfavorable action" because of certain shot fall area(s), and a simple (although expensive) solution was to erect the screens and collect the shot, which resolved the issue.

 

From what I heard they received a grant to help pay for the curtain. The shot reclaiming also contributes
to the repairs of the curtain. I only really have 1 issue with the curtain and that is it needs to go all the
way to the ground especially on the east end. You can see the trucks and other vehicles from the
industrial park.

 

I would think there has to be some way they could engineer a method to either drop the screen when not in use or figure a way to make it open and close like a theater stage screen when not in use. When they have a shoot, raise it or close it. Just my thoughts. Any other ideas?

 

Darn. That's a shame.

They definitely received a grant to help with the cost of the curtain. That's a good thing.

The curtain can't be moved much closer or handicap loads will dramatically reduce material lifespan.

Roy

 

That is tore up ! I think Big Papa is onto something with the raising and lowering of the curtain. This has to be really expensive to repair.

 

well being the old sailor that I am....just let me talk out loud and say.....my great great great grand pappy who sailed the 7 seas on tall ships told me over a campfire that when his ship came upon a storm theyd take to the masts and heave ho and lash the sails in, to weather the storm.
so, study mast and sail construction boys, and learn from the salts.
I did design a system decades ago for a club to do this, but they voted it down. (no vision)
and now im not young or wealthy enough to pursue pat'nts and designs for business, so take my idea and run with it.
good luck, (from an old FAA parachute packer, retired military chute repair and test jumper.)

 

Sounds like the screen needs some reliefs cut in it so it would make a flap with the hinge at the top of the cut with material on the back side to help keep it closed in non/low wind conditions. Possibly a small weight at the bottom of the cut.

 

I have read it coast $27,000 for 50' of screen. Is that true?

 

The Ohio E.P.A. gave the Cardinal Center a grant of $194,000 in June of 2018. News reports stated the Cardinal Center added $534,269 to the O.E.P.A. grant bringing the cost of the original screen to $728,269. The screen runs in front of 52 standard American trap fields plus one international bunker trap field. 27K per 50’ seems to be too high, but in the crazy economy we are dealing with I can’t say it isn’t possible. I will try to locate the total length of the screen but I don’t recall ever seeing that listed anywhere.

 

Thanks Don. I would think each field would be 100', so 52 fields would equate to almost 1 mile long. I didn't see anything on Cardinal Center web site on length, so I am just guessing. From my calculations, it cost $7000 for 50' of screen.

 

I’d say you are pretty close David. I found a note in the Buckeye shoot program that states the screen is 5,700 ft long.

 

There has to be a way to attach pulleys at the top of the poles, and then attach the screens with cables to the pulleys. When there isn't a shoot going on they could lower the screens down and tie off the cables. When there is a shoot coming up, raise the sections. Design it just like a flag pole. Take two teams of two people each, start at each end and work towards the center. I'm sure the raising and lowering can be done in a day if they really tried.

 

I would think, some kind of a garage door style roller system with a pulley at the top would work great. have it roll down in to a trough at the bottom. That would be pretty simple to engineer. Like a roll up screen just opposite. I'm sure they have thought of something like this though. Shot curtains are not a "new" idea.

 

I am going to guess that weight becomes a factor. Just a W-A-G but I would imagine the weight and manpower it would take to raise and lower the panels would be considerable not to mention the added cost for such a system. There again this is just a guess as I have no idea how much these things weigh? It would seem there has to be a solution some how.

 

and dont forget the little bits of lead in everything.

 

I've never been there, however I have been following the shot screen story since it was conceived.and erected. I'm sure nobody expected the havoc the winds have played on it , seems a continual problem and expense to repair. I know this would be expensive to build , but this might be the time to consider it. Why not build a earthen berm high enough and wide enough to catch the majority of the lead in the fall zone and provide easy pick-up of havested lead . You would have a uniform grass berm backround and minimal upkeep with a unique backround and no ugly curtain. Yes it would be costly, but it is a done deal for the life of the club.

 

Settersit. you should visit the Cardinal Center. High winds in Ohio is not unusual so wind damage was not unexpected. The berm you speak of would cover a considerable amount of farmland (income producing property) that is just beyond the screens. The amount of soil required would be extensive and not cheap.

The cost of the windscreens is currently offset by the income from the reclaimed lead. Based on what MTA in Mason received from traditional lead reclamation on just 12 fields this last fall, that replacement cost is a smaller percentage of that income than what may believed here in this thread.

 

ahoy land lubbers.....
photo pic courtesy the www.

 

The fabric is held in place with hog rings.


The hog rings kinda act like a pressure relief valve. When the wind is too strong the rings release. Then the fabric doesn’t tear. Previously there were some less than stellar poles used. If the rings work, and the poles are good and secured properly, you would expect to rehang the fabric. Rinse…repeat.

The CC has a lift for that, but broken poles are head scratchers.

If the screen was put closer to the line, they could have gone without at least one layer of screens. That would have eliminated much of the torque on the poles. There is asphalt below the screen to collect the shot. So moving the screen closer and lowering it may not be cost effective. jmho

 

unfortunately, unlike ships that tilt when wind force is placed on the sails, poles in the ground have no 'give.' thus why they most likely snap or bend.
hog rings giving and poles bending should be avoided by dropping the sails in high wind. issue is, they need to work in high wind match days.
not an easy or inexpensive task indeed.

 

I talked to Jake and he said that the CC would pay 20K to fix the screen anytime when needed in order to make the 90K in lead sales that they get for a year. Math doesn't lie.

 

I wonder if there's been more damage this week. My next door neighbor down in Greenfield lost his roof in the storm that hit them on Sunday.

 

I was there Saturday for the sporting clays shoot. It was very windy although I didn't notice any more damage from the pictures posted until I left on Saturday afternoon. Hopefully they fix the road through the main parking lot that's kinda rough and the road up to the sporting clays parking lot, there was a fair amount of erosion. Great place to shoot.

 

Hunker down boys... here she comes..again.

 

So how did the curtains do over the weekend storms. Friday and Saturday was some seriously heavy winds. If the Cardinal had winds like we had I would imagine more damage again. Anybody know or have pics. Shame a better solution can't be had so that those panels could survive.

 

95% of the Curtin is destroyed and is on the ground or blowing in the wind. About 30-50 poles are snaped off at the ground like toothpicks.

 

Jasper. Where did you get this information? You said 30-50 poles snapped. That is a big difference.

 

Don't be surprised if the new guys running the CC decide not to put it back up. Time for bank drawings?

 

Yes and why is the ex ata president very sensitive about money comments? He questioned two posters on that sight and tried to bully them. Kinda funny the Gary w backed down

 

I talked to Jake and the CC is going to take down all the curtian, too much damage. It would cost over 70K just to replace the poles that are down now. Jake and I talked about drawing for banks this year. He liked the idea. I recomended it, let's hope they listen.

 

Let’s hope they draw for banks. I’m all for it!

 

Was at the Cardinal on Saturday mourning and saw the damage. See pics

 

On R J Stuart site it says that the curtain will not be repaired in 2023 and they will draw for banks