2016 Grand American

I hear the State of Illinois just put up a sign at the events center with the 2016 Grand American dates.

I can feel a great sadness coming over the posters of this site

 

Wonder who made the decision as the budget still isn't resolved. Looks like someone decided to override the Govenor.

 

I thought that maybe Ed Yanchok would be getting ready to shoot the last registered target at Sparta World Shooting Complex.He shot the last one in Vandalia Ohio and the first one in Sparta.Now I see the Grand will be in Sparta for 2016.
Big sign at the Entry Building put up by the state of Illinois.

 

Unfortunately this is how politics works, just like little kids threatening to take each others toys away if they don't do what they say.

 

If you look closely the sign is reversable, the other side says closed until farther NOTICE ... " NO TRESPASSING" ... WPT ... (YAC)

 

Whew, glad this is over for at least one more year !

 

I looked and didn't see it.

Please post a picture of it.

 

The sign is up for all to see, yet they are still holding meetings to decide the future if there is one. I believe the establishment has decided to put their best foot forward hoping everything falls in place later. The primary motivation to put up the sign would be to insure shooters feel good about the future and renew their camping and vendor leases.

 

The sign is GREAT about the "dates" of the 2016 Grand ... but did it include 'WHERE' it is going to be ??????

 

Well, yeah, they had to do it now. The entire staff is getting fired in a few weeks. Can't put up a sign with no employees. The real question is who Illinois is going to find to take it down.

If Rauner doesn't close the WSRC, he'll be an empty threat the rest of his term.

 

The bigger question might be... who's gonna sweep up all those tears?

 

The sign was put up for all to see but it is not official. There is no agreement in place and they are still trying to get meetings scheduled to get approval for a plan for the future.

 

Perhaps it will make a good patterning board ???

 

Just one more exageration to try and stop the bleeding and give false hope to those who attend ... I got a feeling this was posted by the ATA and not any State official ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Is it still up?

 

I heard all shooters are required to salute The Board before the start of every event.

 

Smoking 357, that is more agreeable than what I heard, kissing DLS's butt at the beginning of each porch shoot.

 

Good question. Someone should call Rauner's office and tell him that the ATA is openly defying his authority.

 

We might end up right back where we were 10 years ago. One thing I remember very well was conversation about a year before Vandalia closed. The EC was already looking at properties and kept coming back to the same three or four options. What everyone keeps forgetting was conversation by some that recommended going without a Grand for one year as there were at least three other good options that would not be able to be ready in one year. Those options were never openly discussed and to this day the majority of shooters who think they know everything about our history have no idea what I'm talking about. Its pretty sad because in the ATA's rush to get a great facility by spending no money, because they had none, may have cost us all a great location near needed infrastructure.

 

Yeah, maybe true, but if you are offered a free Bently, a free Cadillac or a free Volt, which one you going to choose, not knowing you could only keep it ten years.. Ten years is a long time. Some kids shooting trap were not born ten years ago.

Oaky, not free, you have to pay for the gas.

 

The local news papers and news say something else (opposite of) but someone hangs a sign and everyone gets all excited ... Lynn Gipson must go home and look in the mirrow trying to convince himself it isn't true ... The ATA's talking head (Lynn Gipson) is probably the one who put the sign up, if so he should be charged with defacing State Property and false advertising ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

At the time this was going on many shooters advised them not to jump so quickly due to the anti-gun sentiment in Illinois and the poor location far from any hotels,restaurants and etc. They were so determined not to lose a year they continued full speed ahead. Many shooters predicted the Grand would die a slow death in Sparta because of the remote location. There were other possibilities which would have provided much better locations but the EC forged ahead. A well run corporation would have FULLY explored all options before moving ahead. Many of us were uncomfortable with Sparta but bought ten year leases and attended every shoot. After the first five years it became apparent things weren't going to get better. Now our leases are ending, many won't be renewed and things will continue downhill. Now you have state shoots that have as many shooters per event as the Grand, something I have never dreamed would happen years ago.

 

So did Lynn Gibson have complete autonomy to chose Sparta over all other sites and the Board of Directors consisting of elected State delegates had no vote in the matter? Just trying to understand, please do not flame.

 

Very true.

If you shift the cost of a lesser venue to the shooters to avoid spending cash, a bigger bank account means you can pay more in salaries and perks.

 

AZCO you must be a newer shooter. He had nothing to do with the ATA in a position of responsibility back then. He was running his own business which his wife now runs. His position with the ATA is relatively new. Tom Acklin and his buddies were the driving force in those days. Most of the Delegates at the time were and probably are today under the impression they had to vote on the three choices discussed as there were no other viable choices. This fell in line with the idea we had to decide now and not go one year without a Grand. There were a couple options Acklin actually refused to consider or even look at as they wouldn't work within the established timeline. Once Sparta said you can come here for free all the questions and ideas stopped.

 

Yes, I am a new shooter, since mid 70's when I joined ATA, but got confused about what you are saying and WPT was posting. Makes no difference it Lynn Gibson was serving then or not, he has been described as the evil warload in so many other cases. He can be blamed for stuff that happened 50 years ago. If he is now and what was when back then, he has a job to put the best face on the ATA and do with what he was dealt.

Board bad, EC bad, ATA bad. It's all such a blur. Who killed my dog?


Somebody made a point about not like cottage cheese but does not rant about it every day.

 

AZCO, The president of the ATA (the one who nixed all the Ohio locations) was from Ohio himself.

 

No, he is innocent, he is from Ohio. He was under the evil influence of Lynn Gibson who was minding his own business at the time. Just like the current Board of Directors, some who were not on the board at the time of decision making. All must be held in contempt for past 100 years of misguided and poor decision making. American Porch Shooting Federation told me this.

ATA bad, EC bad, BOD bad, Sparta bad,

We are DOOMED, all doomed. We can never recover for circumstances beyond our control that happened 10 years ago. We cannot recover, we must wallow in our sorrow for decades more.

 

AZCO. Take a breath your overplaying your hand a little bit. There are some of us who are not and were not in agreement with past ATA decisions but I've shot and supported the Grand and many satellite grands over the years so I think I can say how I feel.

 

And you have every right to say it. I don't agree with everything the ATA does all the time either, but some act like it is the end of the world. So allow me the same courtesy of saying it is getting tiresome, like the cottage cheese.

 

Only you are talking about "cottage cheese." I had a suspicion where you got it, and I was right.

Spare us the references to what off-topic, trolling, trashy belligerents elsewhere say.

 

SmOking 357, you said :

"Spare us the references to what off-topic, trolling, trashy belligerents elsewhere say."

Yes you do enough of your own off-topic, trolling, trashy belligerent talk here.

If we lived by your rule this site would be void of 90% of the posts it has. I'm willing to try if you are.

 

Soaking357,

I mean it's pretty obvious, your ahaunting and alurking too, as does WPT.

 

If anyone is interested, Google "State of Illinois Governor Rauners press releases" and read them for yourself ... It does not sound like anyone was told to post any signs about shooting there next year from what I just read ... The Governor just proposed a $400,000,000 cut to the bugets and the WSRC is part of it ... Its posted and in plain english ... I am tired of being the messenger ... It is what it is ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


I love cottage cheese but with chives ...

 

Ah, WPT, I love you man.

 

I was hoping one of the guys that is in sparta, and post here under a different name than the one they use on that old site, would let us know if that sign is still up or not.

Flyersarebest

 

That is true.

 

False advertising?

Compared to the numbers of shooters that were supposed to come starting 10 years ago, "if they built it", I think a sign is pretty minor.

Flyersarebest

 

Seitz9010:

"One thing I remember very well was conversation about a year before Vandalia closed. The EC was already looking at properties and kept coming back to the same three or four options. What everyone keeps forgetting was conversation by some that recommended going without a Grand for one year as there were at least three other good options that would not be able to be ready in one year. Those options were never openly discussed and to this day the majority of shooters who think they know everything about our history have no idea what I'm talking about. "

A detailed story. Except it's impossible.

The meeting to approve the lease deal with the IDNR was closed by a huge vote of the BOD in a telephonic meeting in Jan/Feb 2004 so there was no conversation about not having a Grand in 2005. We were set and construction was well under way.

There were many, many people involved in the search for a site. It's impossible that anyone with a spot in Ohio could not have found someone, like me for example, VP of the Central Zone at the time and with a fully functioning telephone and USPS service, and told them of the "refused offer." Tom Acklin himself spent himself into poverty driving every dirt road in Ohio looking for a site. He fought for the Shellbyville proposal and he and I talked about it just about every day. When the vote was taken in August, 2003, he told the Dayton paper that it was a big mistake. But we could not afford it. Remember, Sparta floated a bond issue just to build the infrastructure to support the WSRC and that was just about a match for the money we had.

All this from Seita9010 is just an example of the total BS the posters on this site love to hear but remains total BS.

N1H1

 

When you speak of 'the money we had," were you including the receivable of the Vandalia site?

 

N1H1 while I admit I might be off by a year I can say without a doubt their was discussion regarding no Grand for one year and what the repercussions would be. Would it be worth it or not. Obviously it didn't happen but I had that exact conversation with two former EC members one who was on the EC at the time. I said that while I didn't think shooters would be happy about it might give the time needed to look at everything possible. Once Sparta was up and running we both thought things looked good. Later, five maybe six years later we had the same conversation at Carmichaels in Sparta. We both agreed things weren't moving forward as had been planned. He told me he wished he might have pushed a little harder because he had some interest in a parcel that was near the current Vandalia location but that he could get no support for waiting a year after an initial conversation. He first thought he had a another who would support him but later said no. He still shoots and if he wants to come forward it will be his decision. Yes, he does read posts from time to time because we've discussed some of them. While I understand your need to be the finale authority on everything your wrong this time.

 

While it can't be proved because he's no longer with us. I discussed this with Tom in front of the Hall of Fame. Yes, he dismissed it immediately saying time was not available as a year without the Grand would kill the future of the shoot. The fact remains conversations did take place regarding no Grand for one year.

 

OK, I made a couple calls and I was wrong about the date. It was 2002. EC was Phil Wright, Tom Acklin, Dave Kaiser, Tom Arvas and Ken Duncan. N1H1 you weren't even on the EC when these discussions were taking place. Admittedly, I was wrong as I didn't think the Sparta thing was under way in 2002 but what I said was true, it just never got any backing as nobody wanted to go a year without a Grand. So Much for the BS comment from N1H1.

 

Well, Seitz9010, in 2002 is not impossible that "no Grand" was discussed. That is, however, three years before you wrote above which changes your story completely. No Grand was in the minds of many members of the BOD, including mine, in 1999-2001, even 2002. And the reason was not the timing at all; it was the money. Remember, only about 20% of the members ever go to the Grand and I and many other Delegates were not going to potentially bankrupt the Association for what was (and is) just part of our membership. Tom Acklin's plan for Shelbyville came in 15 to 17 million as I remember, and that was without the Batten Farm right in the middle of the line. We had 4.5 million in investments (plus about 2.5 from the airport) and the rest (four million or so - I always got twice that -) was to be financed with borrowed money repaid by membership growth. It is the duty of members of BOD to steward the interests of the ATA and many of us could not support any plan that involved borrowing money whose repayment depended on a wishful thinking, not reason.

Where would the ATA be now if it had liquidated its investments and borrowed millions? Out of business, that's where. Essentially all our income comes from those investments in the capable hands of Tom Burkey. What were we to live on? Where was the money to come from to run the new site? See what it costs Illinois! It was simply impossible. Only when Illinois offered to build it and run it did a Grand somewhere else become a possibility.

Blair Conrad of Dayton International Airport made it clear in the 2002 meeting that we were off the Airport site after 2005. Remember, even before we left we had one or two 70-trap Grands, having lost the rest to a parking garage. He mentioned, but made clear he was not offering, some land at the far side of Dog Leg road which was hilly 400 acres and which would cost 3.6 million. By 2005 FAA was through giving us permission to hold the Grand on airport ground and we had to hold our breath until June or so to see if we were going to get it that year. Remember the choice the FAA faced: "What's the worst thing that can happen if we allow this and what's the worst thing that can can happen if we don't?"

Read the 2001 minutes of the Annual Meeting, the one which set Sparta in motion but only in motion. Everyone had the opportunity to speak. Everyone, including the EC member you cite. Why didn't he? The ATA was in Ohio, all the employees lived in Ohio. What would it have taken to tip just one of them off? There were recesses in all the meetings where anyone with an Ohio offer could have told any Delegate outside getting air about it and changed history. No one did. How did such an offer manage to remain secret?

Every member of the BOD signed the document allowing EC to continue negotiating with the two remaining sites. If there were a possible Ohio site, why did the EC member you spoke with not bring it up? How could he sign such a document without bringing it up?

Tom Acklin was desperate to keep the Grand in Ohio. The work involved in failing to find one eventually killed him. I was in constant contact with him for years and he would have told me, told someone, told everyone, if there had been an Ohio site. There wasn't one.

Anybody can say anything now, but the minutes can't be changed. They tell the story, the whole story. Read them. Particularly the 2002 Annual meeting which has Blair Conrad's address to the BOD and restarts the whole process again, including nullifying what was done in the 2001 meeting. If there were not countless chances for a concerned member of the EC to voice an alternative site I don't know how that could have been.

The history of relocation is in many years of official minutes, not on the internet, especially here.

N1H1

 

Can we count on that sign?

 

I drove by the site that was west of Vandalia home grounds Saturday on my way to Indiana Gun Club to buy a gun, it was flat ground just like the Airport. Traps would face north, and land was 2 + miles long. Right on old Route 40, This was the site offered by Dayton/Vandalia/Airport to Keep it close to Vandalia

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Seita9010:

" He told me he wished he might have pushed a little harder because he had some interest in a parcel that was near the current Vandalia location but that he could get no support for waiting a year after an initial conversation. He first thought he had a another who would support him but later said no. "

This sort of nonsense would only be believed by someone who wants to be misled! This guy just needed one supporter to get his way and quit when he changed his mind? Oh, come on!

Read those minutes and the detail in which they recount the participating Delegates' words! Everyone who had something to say could say it and plenty did, whether they had a single ally or not. Stop anywhere in any discussion and add an EC member saying "There a great site near where we are right now but we would have to wait another year." And then go on in more detail.

In the context of those discussions do you think he would have needed any ally, even just one supporter? Of course not! It would have stopped everything in its tracks until the point had been made more clear.

But there was no such bombshell. Because there was no tract of land.

N1H1

 

Gary, Mr. Conrad, a friend of the ATA if ever there was one, talked only about Dog Leg Road. It was 400 acres and if you ever walked there you would know it was not flat. If there were the sort of offer you talk about he would have have taken it right to the BOD, to whom he was welcome to talk any time.

These two stories, the un-named EC member and now yours, make no sense, starting with how do you keep a secret like that from 2000 to 2004 in a small town like Vandalia where so many were depending on the Grand staying there? Why do they appear now and not then? Why do you guys accept such stories as true when they are so, so unlikely, and can't be explained except by, for example, one of the principles losing one vote? One vote? When there are 50 Delegates sitting right in front of him dying for information like that? How can this make any sense to anyone?

N1H1

 

N1H1 ... the 'details' of a bad decision may be interesting to some ... but they are a moot-point. Shooters will not go, and have shown that for 10 years.

A WORLD Complex with a shoot open to the WORLD .... can only 'draw' less than a couple of thousand 'shooters' from the entire WORLD ... it IS NOT just Ohio shooters that won't go ... it is shooters from everywhere in the WORLD that won't go.

That location and a shoot format that requires cheating to win ... is a loser ... then, now, and in the future.

 

N1H1 - I'm saying there was discussion among the EC members regarding a one year gap with no Grand to gain more time and look at other options. You're saying that never happened so I guess that's where it stands. You keep pushing the minutes so I guess I am to assume all conversation between EC members is always reflected in the minutes but we all know that's not true. So you hold on to your beliefs that you know everything and I'll hold on to the thought that yes the impact of not having a Grand for one year was discussed as were any possible locations to go to for one year with Linn Creek specifically mentioned. For me, I'm done, you work your revisionist history any way you prefer. It's over. There's been no big increase in attendance this year so we have what we have and that's it.

 

Seitz9010, I thought I made it clear above. There were many years when practically everyone at least talked about no Grand for a year or forever. That included me; I'm sure that included the EC. My comment was directed at the timeframe you cited in your first post: "about a year before Vandalia closed." I said that was impossible, since Sparta was already half-built. When you backed that down three years, I thought I agreed.

I push the minutes because they show how nonsensical your claims are. All that talk Acklin was able to keep those sites near Vandalia secret. Heck, if I wanted to give all that land to the ATA and Tom were the stumbling block, I'd have taken out an ad in the Dayton News to appear on the day of the Annual Meeting. That would have solved that problem. But that never happened. People with the skills to make the kind of money to make such an offer could find a way around Acklin, around the EC if need be; they have the skills and financing to get their story to the BOD, the voters who count.

It's odd you should term my version "revisionist." After all, I'm just citing the official history. It's you who are proposing revisions. Revisions which make no sense to anyone.

You understand, Seita9010, that

"You keep pushing the minutes so I guess I am to assume all conversation between EC members is always reflected in the minutes but we all know that's not true."

is a logical fallacy called "Argument from ignorance." In this case, the assertion that since the minutes do not note any of this, it's what must have happened.

I don't recall I ever claimed to "know everything," Only that I know way more than you.

N1H1

 

OK there, lets not start saying I said something I didn't. I never said anything about Acklin keeping sites secret. I said that the EC decided to go with three sites and not have any more consideration of other sites. As far as you knowing more than me, that is probably true as you are a past president. In fact I guess that's probably been your stance throughout your ATA career you know more than anyone else. Now run along smarty pants and continue defending everything the EC has ever done. I'm done here.

 

Seitz9010:

"OK there, lets not start saying I said something I didn't. I never said anything about Acklin keeping sites secret. I said that the EC decided to go with three sites and not have any more consideration of other sites."

Seitz9010 earlier above:

"Most of the Delegates at the time were and probably are today under the impression they had to vote on the three choices discussed as there were no other viable choices. This fell in line with the idea we had to decide now and not go one year without a Grand. There were a couple options Acklin actually refused to consider or even look at as they wouldn't work within the established timeline. "

Also above

Seitz9010:
"One thing I remember very well was conversation about a year before Vandalia closed. The EC was already looking at properties and kept coming back to the same three or four options. What everyone keeps forgetting was conversation by some that recommended going without a Grand for one year as there were at least three other good options. . .

N1H1:
"A detailed story. Except it's impossible.

The meeting to approve the lease deal with the IDNR was closed by a huge vote of the BOD in a telephonic meeting in Jan/Feb 2004 so there was no conversation about not having a Grand in 2005. We were set and construction was well under way.

Seitz9010:
"N1H1 while I admit I might be off by a year I can say without a doubt their was discussion regarding no Grand for one year and what the repercussions would be. "
"OK, I made a couple calls and I was wrong about the date. It was 2002. "


N1H1:
"Well, Seitz9010, in 2002 is not impossible that "no Grand" was discussed. That is, however, three years before you wrote above which changes your story completely. No Grand was in the minds of many members of the BOD, including mine, in 1999-2001, even 2002."

Seitz9010:
"N1H1 - I'm saying there was discussion among the EC members regarding a one year gap with no Grand to gain more time and look at other options. You're saying that never happened so I guess that's where it stands.

N1H1
"Seitz9010, I thought I made it clear above. There were many years when practically everyone at least talked about no Grand for a year or forever. That included me; I'm sure that included the EC. My comment was directed at the timeframe you cited in your first post: "about a year before Vandalia closed." I said that was impossible, since Sparta was already half-built. When you backed that down three years, I thought I agreed.

Seitz9010
"Now run along smarty pants and continue defending everything the EC has ever done. I'm done here."

N1H1
"Bye."

 

Geez N1H1 - me saying there were a couple sites Tom refused to consider is a far stretch from saying I said Tom was keeping sites secret. But as you said you're the smart one! I've learned something new. Refusing to consider something that was already being discussed is keeping it secret. Interesting.

 

The effect of a single EC member "refusing to consider" something like a place to move the Grand - or how many doughnuts to order - would have no effect whatever. The decision would just be made either way without his input.

N1H1

 

You know what happened some 5, 10,15,20 years or more ago doesn't matter. What matter is what is happening today. Someone needs to give the ATA a swift kick in the corp butt to wake them up. If they haven't figured it out by now their continued presence in Sparta is questionable. When the Governor starts talking about closing you down that is Red Flag #1. Doesn't matter if it is a political ploy, the fact that it was even considered is a warning.

Then you factor in that it will be closed, Red Flag Warning #2 and employees were given layoff notices, you better wake up and smell the coffee because once closed the chance that it will reopen is very small. After all they have closed it and the only people who care are non residents of the state and they don't vote in local elections.

 

"they don't vote in local elections."

Oh, I don't know, LadyT. The whole area around Sparta was in pretty tough shape after the coal mines played out. The WSRC has breathed a lot of life back into the area, cleaned off the whitewashed windows on Main Street, given a lot of local citizens economic opportunity they no doubt appreciate and would be loath to see go away. They have turned out to be very nice, very hardworking people who have welcomed the vagabonds in the parking lots, the campground, the local businesses, and tell us so every time we deal with them. Really, they need the WSRC as much as the ATA does.

I visited the complex in December, 2005, when the vendor buildings were just going up. The construction crews were steadfastly putting things together for us, hefting their Hiltis, muffled in Carharts and thick gloves against the below-freezing winds. Certainly they have earned our support in recognition of all they did - and still do - for us. The contrast between them and the posters on this site could not be more stark.

N1H1

 

Reminds me of those waxing poetic while rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

The facts remain that there is an uncertainty looming in the air, that is something that seldom goes away once it starts ... The WSRC is a thorn in the side of many Illinois politcians who do not and will not give up their cush jobs to keep the WSRC in existance against the wishes of the voters of the State, not just the area in and around Sparta and Randolf County ... The best thing that could happen is the State keep it operational and maintained so it can be used on occasion and they continue to finance those events at a loss and waste of tax dollars ... The WSRC is a mounument to the people of Sparta and the ATA, its not something that any business man or Major Corp would of gotten involved in after performing a due diligance (sp) of the immediate area ... People said build it and they will come, who and when ..? People talked about the turn around of the geographic area and all of the infratucture that was going to exist like it did in Vandalia, it never happened ... Might be a nice place, but I wouldn't want to live there ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Just heard the IDNR is still planning on reopening the WSC once the budget and their new management plan is in place. Also heard that Dean Townsend is getting serious consideration as the new site manager.

 

How does any one person get "special consideration" and IDNR show EEOC compliance?

 

Meig's Field on the Lake Michigan lake front served a purpose for many commuter airlines and private planes, jets etc to get into Chicago and into the business district of the down town area reasonably quickly, probably faster than getting out of a traffic jam at O'Hare or down I-55 to the Dan Ryan and into the city ... They also had access to getting out of the city (Lake Shore Drive) without having to drive in all of the traffic to get to Midway or O'Hare airports ... The city shut it down due to cost over runs and the State subsidized it to keep it from being a financial burden to the City of Chicago ... The place sat in Limbo for quite a long time and all anyone would say was it was" going to re open one of these days", that day that never came ... Once a facility is considered for being shut down for what ever reason its remains in jeopardy or until they get around to it again ... Things had a tendancy to be forgotten until one day one of the elected Officials see's a way to get a "Gold Star" and makes a motion to bull doze or eliminate it to stop the bleeding ... Meig's Field served a logical and reasonable purpose far beyone the WSRC out in the middle of NoPlace, Illinois far from the business and tourist areas ... WSRC made the papers and sooner or later it will meet with the same fate because once considered, never forgotten ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

There is one wrinkle the state will have to overcome if they close the WSC. The federal government was involved in the state issuing of the bonds to underwrite the construction of the WSC. How or what the Feds current involvement is I don't know but I was told that the state still had to work with the Feds if that facility is shut down regarding the bond obligations.

 

Another problem the ATA is facing is the campsite leases. The ATA pays the IDNR for all the sites whether they are leased or not. Many are not renewing their leases for next year so the ATA's idea of raising my yearly fee from $425 to over $600 makes little sense. I know everyone's looking for more money but I don't see a substantial raise as a good way to encourage renewals.

 

Wha????? Check more into this.

The Feds don't stand behind local or state bonds.

The ATA needs an attorney. The State can't threaten to close the event then demand full contract value from the ATA for future revenue the State just scared the ATA's customer base from pursuing.

 

I understand but I was told by someone who works for the state of Illinois that the Feds were involved and there were things that needed to be worked out if the state closed the facility.

 

The State no doubt has more problems than are obvious by the budget over load, consessions can be made if needed to try and make something salvagable to some degree ... It cannot be beneficial to the bond rating if the place loses money faster than they can print it and has showed a continual loss for 10( make that 11 ) years running ... If the State was a reasonable, logical, business man or Investement Corp the WSRC would of been closed 5 or 6 years ago rather than take the financial loss every year ... The Feds can lose things faster than people can, thats for sure so not sure how it could be justified ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Are you talking about Pittman-Robinson funds?

There's nothing that "needs to be worked out." If the State is losing big on a shooting range, it closes the shooting range. Certainly, Rauner has an attorney bright enough to tell him the truth.

 

Not sure he just said that if the state closed the WSC the Feds would get involved as they helped with the underwriting of the bonds to build it. That's basically all he said that's why I was asking.

 

Well, here's a story on the subject:

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2005/12/12/focus11.html?page=all

Sparta seems in trouble on their sewer bonds, but the State has an easy decision. If the facility is a revenue-loser, you won't pay off the bondholders by continuing to lose money. If you're going to be perpetually in the red, close the facility, and service the debt through revenue-producing means.

I'd really like to know more about how the State guy thinks the Feds are underwriting the State bonds. If that's true, the State bonds would have an identical credit rating as Fed bonds.

 

Don't know any more than I posted I'll try to talk to him tonight and ask him if he can tell me more. Actually I was hoping someone here might know more because I too wondered why the Feds would have any involvement.

 

Remember it was said that Odumbo shot trap, so maybe he has a hand in this. LOL.

 

I wonder if the added taxable revenue generated by the Grand on local businesses mitigates the loss of money on the WSC by the state of Illinois. Anyone know the figures?...Bill

 

Illinois Policy has looked at the sales tax receipts for Sparta and found they have declined since WSRC was opened.

 

Dean Townsend as site Mgr would be a big mistake, trust me on this.


GB DLS

 

Update - my friend believes the Feds guaranteed part of the bonds issued in some way. Didn't get a clear explanation. Regarding the facility managers position. The current facility manager is part of the political machine running things in the state and will retain his position. Don't know who is pushing Dean Townsend but it seems he has no chance of replacing current manager. That's all I got last night.

 

The dates for next years Grand were also printed in this years program. That went to the printers about three months or more ago. The sign did not mention a location//////// Roger C.

 

I don't how we can trust you on that Doc when you claim there was no beer tent. If you can see a clay at 133 yards can't figure how you could miss the grandstands with 50 by 100 ft tent.