Over Under on GAH

What is the over under number for the shooters on the GAH?

Anyone have a guess. May be interesting to see who is closest?

 

A quote from a member on another older thread might be a good guess.

"Take the number that shot the Ohio State Handicap Championship times that by 2 and add a hundred or so."

Flyersarebest

 

No added money.

Less than 1400 if the weather is good. jmho

 

I would agree with that.

 

The ATA better hope we are wrong. Another year with only 1600-1700 shooters for the GAH would be embarrassing.

Flyersarebest

 

Well if all the folks who come to over throw the EC stay and shoot we will have a great crowd.

 

Since that will never happen you can forget about getting additional shooters that way. Now what?

The top politician might have unknowingly helped you out. Since he started the death knell you just might get a crowd to see the last grand held there.

 

Oh its on, Garry Bryant DLS is organizing it. He is driving over per an earlier posting.
Maybe he would let you ride along?

 

I would not bet that this will be the last Grand shot here, but I will give ODDs that the additional 10 lease will not be honored by the State of Illinois ... The writing is pretty much on the wall, once it starts its hard to stop a Train ... The WSC was under the radar for many years, now it is a topic of conversation by people who do not even shoot or know what trap shooting is, or much less care ... These same people do not take into consideration trapshooters from all across the country and other countrys' for that matter ... These people care about Tax dollars, where they go and why ... The membership does not have to do anything, the States going to eventually do it for them and without very delibarate planning the EC and BOD will have nothing to govern over or stand in line for ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

1,526 (maybe) if the sun is shining and the winds don't blow ...

 

The ATA will roll on with or without Sparta.
It is a great place to shoot but remember very few members ever attend a Grand.
I would miss having a Grand to attend many of the rank and file wouldn't even notice.

 

Something to keep in mind while working on your over/under.

 

With $30K added prizes and money during the weekend before the Cardinal Classic it will be hard for Sparta to come up with some thing grand. Especially with no added monies.

 

I think that many trapshooters that are not on the 2 sites or live in Illinois are totally unaware of the politics that are involved and the financial problems of the State of Illinois. Many of these trapshooters are also unaware that the State of Illinois financial problems will/are affecting the ATA operation at Sparta as many believe that the additional 10 yr contract between the ATA and the State of Illinois guarantees the Grand at Sparta for the years remaining on the contract and could be in for a big suprise. You may disagree but in talking to shooters from around the country gives me this distinct impression.

 

Well said OP
I think there are plenty who are unaware or not very interested.
When our delegate spoke to it at the annual meeting those in attendance listened politely.
Only the handful that make the trip annually had any real concern.

 

It was the same thing last year as well. What was the result?

2014 BOD meeting:

"Pre-squadding at the Grand American is 7.4% higher this year, however, 236
attendance is the same as last year."

Keep that in mind when working on your over/under.

Shoot well.

John

 

Hoping to see a couple thousand shooters today!

 

Less than 3,000 is a joke.

 

The numbers posted by event: For all events with the exception of the Grand (grand, or mini grand) with 23 events posted indicates a total of 28, 086 entry's @ $3 per = (drum roll please) $84,258.00 for the almost 2 weeks ... If this is not PITIFULL showing , please tell me what is ..? This could of been run on 50 or less traps and still been done in daylight ... When the State of Illinois looks at these numbers if they do not shutters the place they are mssing more than a few screws ... If this is a "Fantastic Direction" that has been talked about "Dem Boyz dummer in at mule ober ere: and the shooting Industry is in deep trouble ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You and the entire BOD and EC

 

The shoot got a 10% bump since it was billed as the last shoot at Sparta and yet it is the 2nd lowest since the Korean War. Last year the worst.

 

2015 - 30,077 entries versus 2014 - 29,180 entries. Up roughly 900 entries. Looks more like a 3% increase.

 

Please "Fantastic Direction" if you please and or must ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Billed as the last shoot in Sparta??? Only here, which most of the members shooting don't really follow. Looks like it was a another great GRAND!

 

That came from the governor.

Less than 2k in the GAH.

Loudone....how many grands have you been too? Only a few have been this bad in the last 65 years? This year and last year. When did you attend that made this look "Grand?" You must be one old fart.

 

I suppose it is a matter of what your experiences are. If you are from a state that only has 22 shooters that shot 1000 hdcp targets then the shoot in Sparta was a success. If you ever attended a shoot in Vandalia you may think the shoot in Sparta was a joke.

Sparta and Vandalia are nothing alike. Vandalia is more like the Cardinal Center.

Watch the vendors. The vendors go where the trapshooters go. They do not play politics. The powder distributors deliver to the big powder consumers first. No politics.

I know a fellow from Jersey that drove to Sparta for what he thought was the last shoot there.

 

Nobody cares about total event entries. That figure only matters to the ATA. In order to be an economic engine for the area, what matters to Springfield is total number of unique visitors to the event, stuff bought, sales tax paid, restaurant bills paid and hotel rooms bought.

 

I've been to 4, 2 each Sparta and Vandalia. You can say whatever makes you feel better, it's still the biggest trapshoot in the world! Is it as big as the shoot I've shot in Ohio, not even close, but it's still the GRAND! Hope your shoot next week is great as well. I want every shoot to be a success so my grandchild that is about to be born can enjoy the game my Grandfather thought me to love.

 

The governor didn't say that. Your twisting it to fit your needs again......

 

June 12, 2015
Included in a laundry list of reductions designed to save an estimated $420 million are cuts in state payments to Amtrak, a shutdown of the World Shooting Complex in Sparta in September and the suspension of all state building projects.
(press release from the governors office.)

 

Another flat out lie! If you follow the other post here, GRAND results you would know the true facts. Keep spinning the figures to fit your needs and soon WPT will be spouting them as facts!

Look I get it, our shooting world has changed, and probably not the way many would have like it to. So we can sit back and bitch non stop or support the shoots we can and try to change things for the best.

 

Only part of the story and you know that! Wanna bet if we have a GRAND in Sparta next year?

 

I would like some of that action.

$50?

 

The other part of the story is they have their pink slips.

 

the loudone,
I call them as I see them, do not put a spin on anything which seems to be more to the liking of the ATA's way of doing business with Lynn (The Talking Head ) Gipson making statements that contradict even the exagaerated claims made by the ATA ... The ATA has since shut up and made him their patsy, that was not a good call by any means ... I lived, worked, and played in Illinois for many years even got to know (meet on more than one occasion) some major Political Power Houses and a couple of the Mayors ... Honorable Richard J. Daily, Jane Burns step son was my attorney, Political Democratic Commitman (and shooter) Martin Tuchow (47th Ward) was also my attorney in my divorce, the Judge made it a point to say "Good Morning Mr Tuchow", (then sidebar about lunch) when we went into the courtroom and ignored the attorney for the other side ... I do not have to stretch or put a spin on anything to please anyone or make my case ... I felt very passionate about trapshooting at one time, the club, the people, the competetion, the ATA, NRA .... I worked extra hours, jobs etc to be able to afford this passion and not take away from my family, my girlfriend and her children and then the one we had between us ...

The WSRC is in trouble, I have said it many times over that I personally hope the State keeps it open and absorbs the operational and maintainance costs not for me, but for those of you who choose to attend ... I said before it opened I would never (NEVER) shoot a target there so Help Me God and I will remain steadfastly yo that and those convictions ... I hope your Grand Babies have a great time shooting at the WSRC and or anyplace else you might take them ... Sit back and watch, its out of our control now and the State (Voters) will make the call ... The ATA does not have any bargining power so to try and flex their nothing muscles and pressure the State would be a waste of valueable time ... The ATA should at least keep Gipson from from any more interviews and reports on the situation and hire a Professional if they feel the need ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The shoot was not up 7%, they Pre-squadded because of poor squadding

 

Take the emotions out of it and things look bleak for Sparta. This was the last year of the ten year leases and it was still only up 900 entries from last year. Leases aren't being renewed and will be down probably 25% at a minimum. Unfortunately, the ATA has already raised prices. Next years Grand, if at Sparta, will have trouble maintaining 1500+ shooters for the week. I don't have the answers but until Sparta is definently approved for next year the ATA is dead in the water. If approved the ATA will have to work hard with new ideas to keep the Sparta shoot together. I have no idea what should be done but the thinkers better kick it up a notch because the deck is stacked against them. At this point I really don't think Sparta is the answer. I'm a supporter of the Grand but I think it needs a new location near things like hotels and restaurants. I'm not from Ohio but it seems to be the better option at this point. The biggest possible mistake would be the ATA using their accumulated funds to purchase or maintain Sparta. Great facility in a bad location.

 

The ATA needs to get re established, curtail all of the uncertainty and get back to reality ... There are places where the Grand can be held without the black cloud of doom, uncertainty, and desparation looming over head ... The shoot could of been held on 50 traps according to the attendance numbers of each event posted on the ATA 's site ... The ATA can put out a request for Proposals / Bids to see if there is anyplace that might consider hosting the shoot, that can include the State of Illinois (WSRC) ... They can develope a minimum requirement standard for any clubs that might be interested for all, not selectively or by preference ... The WSRC is going to come crashing down sooner or later, based on the principle of once it's in question, its always doubted ... There are many clubs and multiple locations all over the country that can, the question would be more so will they want to get involved ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

In answer to your question, multiply the participation in the Ohio State Handicap in 2015 by 2.57.

N1H1

 

But, if the Grand was still in Ohio, the the correct math would be, multiplier, 2.57=2000+6-3

 

The IDNR could care less about the leases.

All the sites are leased by the ATA whether they are vacant on not. The ATA eats that bill.

We will have warm breezes in Texas or AZ next summer.

 

Could the ATA get in a crop on the camspites before the Grand starts? April to the end of July gives them four months. There are corn varieties that can grow in that time. Dig up the campsites, and the ATA has a decent-sized farm they can work. Get your campsite for free if you do some hours in the detassling field.

 

No harvesting until the next legislative session or if opened again. May be wise to put in a winter wheat crop by Sept. 1.

 

I'll just bring this to the top.

 

Well, they're shooting at that place in Il. so It looks like you won the bet.

The only thing is, you can color it, spin it, name it, love it, dream about it, hell, you can even talk yourself into believing it, but it ain't the GRAND. It's just a shoot in Il.

 

I got calls from two friends who are in Sparta, both say there are a lot of camping spots going unused, so it looks like the ATA is going to choke on a lot of them ... The numbers are not impressive according to some that are there, but the scores are good ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Clay Target Championship 2004 @ Vandalia-2,731 shooters

" " " 2016 @ Sparta -1,937 shooters

The comparisons are yours to make!

 

2006 PA State Shoot Singles Championship 1,604-handled over 52 traps. Just a normal state shoot!

 

GAH 1877 the number I pick.

 

The ATA website shows the magic number is 1784

 

Only 93 off the number. Hell of a prediction.

Another "grand' turn out.

 

A grand by what definition? 1784 far less than the 30,000 that ATA claimed.

 

This is copied from FG's post on another thread

Family Guy, post: 28594, member: 46
"I called WSIL and the person at the news desk (male voice) was very embarrassed. He was especially embarrassed when he found out the ATA did not have 30,000 shooters. I told him we used to have close to 100,000.

He said he was going to change the story asap. He implied Roni, the reporter is not an expert on trapshooting. He was also shocked at the number that was reported as being in town on the 5th."

So, that 30,000 number was not even close to being true, we ALL knew that. Just another "news" story some reporter swallowed. From what I read the person dishing out that crap wasn't talking about only one event anyway. I read it as the ata said 30K shooters for the entire shoot. We ALL knew that was BS too.

But, what IS true is the pathetic turn out for the GAH. 1784!!!

I know what number I'll be playing on the PA lotto's 4 digit tomorrow.

 

DRUM ROLL PLEASE , The final tally I was given, (not verified ) was 30,587 total shooters in all events ... This was given to me from a friend who is there ... Said the weather was hot and humid ... IDNR's $3 per events sure isn't going to be what they expected for a return ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Total shooters(people) or total entries? If someone shoots 1 event, or all of them, how is that counted?

 

I was told this was (is ) the total number of entries taken of all events, so it is not the number of shooters but the number of entries ... Those do not look like impressive number being as this is the biggest little shoot in the world ... Each entry in each event, so the same person would be accounted for several times ... The most entry's in any one event was event #23, with 1905 , so if they had 30,000 shooters at the facility they surely would of had more than 2,000 shooters in any one of the event's even if by accident ... Pathetic ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The SCTP and AIM at Cardinal had a larger Attendance, they had 800 entries in the Annie Oakley, that was half of the GAH.

Moms and Dads had better places to stay and Eat, and had Casino's


GB........................................DLS

 

Do you consider the economy changing in the last 12 years might have had anything to do with the numbers down? I doubt it, you would rather bash the ATA instead, and bash Sparta.

 

Looks like we have some NEW members visiting. That's great!

Welcome "chooter", and let me be the first to ask you a question.

How is posting a FACT, the attendance numbers, bashing the ata?

 

Gee you really stepped in it there Chooter. As if no one ever asked that. There is a reason the "G"rand did not happen this year. From a previous post.......get educated!
____________________


Those people from Ohio and PA that used to flock to Vandalia can tell you about bad economic times and shooting trap.

Some may remember the hyper-inflation under Nixon but Vandalia and trapshooting was getting bigger.

Carter and his malaise and double digit unemployment and the fuel shortage hit the Midwest hard. Of course it was another banner era for trapshooting.

One of the worst days for the Vandalia and the trapshooting lands was the Monday the steel mills closed in Ohio and PA. Another great year for trapshooting. One of the biggest.

Black Thursday and the stock market crash and the following recession did not stop trapshooting.

The next big crash was the dot com crash. Hurt everything but trapshooting. Vandalia hardly blinked.

We have been reminded on occasion how well the sport did during the great recession. Darn good.

All those bad times above we call the golden age of trapshooting. The good 'ole days.


Then came the move. Not even trapshooting could overcome that.

(from previous post)
---------------------------------------

Why didn't a "G"rand happen this year. It wasn't the economy!

 

I think we need some charts and graphs to make this a little easier for some people to be able to understand ... When you see the lines going down, its much easier to get it to register more so than trying to communicate with numbers ... Pathetic is Pathetic when the numbers do not add up and you cannot draw a crowd, must be something to do with location, location or maybe the location is part of the problem... Ya Think ..? WPT ... (YAC) ....

 

Not for nothing, but I just ran the total attendance/ entry numbers off the the OFFICIAL ATA web site and it appears there were even less than I got when I tabulated them the first time based on numbers I was given from a friend who was at the grand ... (Might of been this damn WalMart calculator)...
The OFFICIAL ATA Web site :
Total number of entry's : 28,192 total entry's in all event's not counting ( the 20 gauge, 28 gauge, and International event's ... These numbers are not posted .)

28,192 entry's @$3.00 per to the IDNR = $84,576.00 .... This would be plus what ever the ATA paid for control of the camping and utilities ...

NOTE : Not one event had 2,000 entry's, the so called claims of 15,000 to 30,000 that was broadcast on the local television station was grossly over stated ... (new math maybe)...

I seriously doubt anyone would consider this to be moving in a "Fantastic Direction" , unless they were on mind altering medication, drugs or both ... The State of Illinois obviously had to protect them self from any more financial distress (disaster) by passing the costs along to the renter and its many sponsors , though those totals have not been posted or made public information so only those who need to know would have that information as of now ... This is truly SAD that the worlds biggest trap shoot cannot ROCK THE HOUSE and fill the place unless maybe the members have have and heard enough of the BS and are growing tired of supporting the ED, EC, and some of the BOD and their agenda's that are not favorable to the membership and the betterment of trapshooting ... The ATA no doubt made money, (how much is any body's guess) but the State of Illinois cannot and probably will not continue to provide a facility for a two week party once a year at great cost to the tax payers of the State ... Some one is going to pay big time for this to happen ... You betcha goombowski ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The sport of trap shooting is in need of some new leadership. The present leaders do not seem to have either the ability or the motive to promote the sport. Other shooting sports are growing and ours is shrinking. Please do not tell me that it is the individual members that are supposed to grow the sport. that is BS. WE HAVE HAD ABOUT 15 YRS. OF INEPT LEADERSHIP, and it does not look like it can be revived in the near future. To many things have been changed to make it almost impossible for the members to take charge of the organization.

I have seen the sporting clays people vying for new shooters at the largest club in the state of Arizona on a regular basis. They even have the employees of the facility telling new shooter that trap and skeet are boring, but sporting clays is a lot of fun. I have never seen a representative of the ATA trying to do the same anywhere. We need new ideas, not the same old stuff that has not worked in the past. Many of us older shooters entered the sport when there were tougher targets and every one that showed up did not leave with a trophy. Many of our present day competitors do not know what the sport was all about. We have to many catagories and special award trophies now. At many shoots people can rack up AA points and only have to compete with as little as 5 shooters. This is crazy. I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm sure we have not tried it yet. I'm sure of one thing we the members need more voice in the direction of the organization than we now have. Many of the delegates are not the brightest bulbs in the string, and even the ones that are can not make a difference in the decisions that are handed to them.

The delegates need to form a committee of their own to combat the power of the EC and BOD. They could decide the direction of the ATA and direct the EC and BOD not the other way around. It would take some balls to do so. I can remember when the AZ/ delegate was leaving office told the members of the state meeting that he would help the new delegate to understand how it was his job to bring to the AZ ATA members what the ATA wanted them to do. I was a little amazed at that statement. I thought it was his job to represent the wishes of the AZ members to the ATA. If this is the mind set of 51% of the delegates nothing will ever improve.I f the zone delegate does not vote the way the state delegates tell him to, he should be removed from the office. The job of reclaiming the organization for the members is not a job for the faint of heart or the sheep.

SPARTA, is not the problem. It is only a part of the problem. It is one of the poor decisions that was made by some of the self servers in the organization. There were many other decisions that led up to the loss of faith in the leadership of the ATA. The lack of ability to compete with the other shooting sports for new members is one of the greatest that has been made. When the existing members will not or can not support the ATA how can we entice new members in to the fold. One or two people investing millions of dollars in the game can not save it, and it is a shame.

If anyone has any suggestions, please post them, maybe some of them can be used to save the sport. ROGER C.

 

I got a phone call today (09-02-16) saying I would be getting an E Mail with some very interesting statistics in it ... The person would not tell me what its all about, just to watch for an E Mail in the next day or so and said it was okay to post it upon receipt of same ... I'm sure it will be something of particular interest to a lot of the members but will not speculate ... They say it don't help to have friends ... lol ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I got an E Mail with all of the grand stats 2006 to and including 2016 , cannot get it to post ... The numbers are not impressive by any means , if someone else wants to try and post it send me an E Mail address and i can forward it to you ... WPT ... (YAC) ...