The year 1993 in the ATA

Flyersarebest, you do have an impressive way with words, but I think you may have typed too fast for some of the folks on here.

Dave Berlet

 

Roger, congratulations on being older than dirt. I admire your tenacity. No, I plan on dying way earlier than you but I know enough trap setters that will accommodate my wishes and put the targets in the center hole just in case I defy my expectations. Any of your great, great grandkids ask you to turn over your guns to them yet?

 

Thanks Dave
Some might have to read it twice and some might not get it at all but the one thing they will all get is the last line.

Guy #1 Laughing his azz off.

 

Flyersarebest, I did not start the who is better dawg did. He new my name and looked up my records on the ATA web. The dawg and I have a differing opinion of following the rules of a organized sport should be. I believe we should follow them to the letter, he believes he is above them. My grand father told me when I was a young man, Boy you came in this world with a bare ass and a good name ,see that you go out the same way. No cheater can have a good name. Roger C.

 

204 posts to arrive at, "He started it!"

 

Roger, I never said you were Guy # 4

And I also looked up your scores. I believe there is just one person in your state with that name and I know better than to take a swipe at someone that is over 80 years old and still shot more than 31,000 combined targets IN JUST THE LAST 6 YEARS

With 8,700 of those targets being DOUBLES shot in just two of those six years.

And I don't have the banner that reads "Member State Hall of Fame" either.

I never went to college, but I’m not stupid.

 

Your post implies that it is over.

From experience I can tell you, Not even close.

 

Flyer's I've always thought a thread has a shelf life, but then the Dave Schaffer thread makes an appearance. I wish we had a graph that explained all these posts on 1993. I really did just want to point out how the ATA has cheapened the All American teams over the years. Everything else was just a bonus.

 

Roger, AZ only has 4 pages of shooters while PA has 17. That makes my chances of making PA's HOF about 0. Ok, I won't make it anyway because I shot 2-hole targets. It's gonna be a long Winter.

 

Dawg. You could not make it because you were not capable of shooting up to the level needed to get there. You do not get in any state hall of fame based on the amount of shooters in that state. It is based on ability and contributing to the sport.
Do you remember WTJ's toaster, I just sent it an email, an it make more sense than you do. Roger C,

 

Maybe that way in AZ but monetary contributions counted more than ability in many states HOF. Get with the program!

 

This thread reminds me of a stuck toilet...it just keeps running and running.

 

100% pure trivia !

 

Dawg, That is more of your bull shit. Are you saying in most states if you pay the money you can get in their hall of fame? You seem to have a very low opinion of all shooters that you call the big dogs, why is that? Roger C.

 

I'm on it Rook

 

Roger, not only in the states but in the ATA HOF too. You've been around for 85 years and your head is still under a rock.

 

DAWG, most states Have a clause that working for and supporting the sport is reason to be in the hall of fame. It is not only how many events you win.
I don't think it mentions how much you can pay. You have a screwed up opinion about everything pertaining to this sport, do you have the same feelings about
life in general? If so it is very sad. In regards to the mention of the ATA H.O.F., I think you are making reference to a good friend of mine. YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MAN OR HOW MUCH HE AND HIS FRIENDS AND FAMILY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE WELL BEING OF THIS SPORT. Have you ever had a good thought about any thing? Roger C.

 

Rodger when Bradford and the HOF changed the requirements to get into the HOF just to let the Martians in any good that they had done was negated by Martian allowing himself and his wife to be put into the HOF just because of money he gave Bradford.

I'll even go so far as to say if the Martians had never been to an ATA trap shoot the sport wouldn't be in the shape it is today. Without the Martian's money being poured into Sparta the grand would have left there 10 years ago. The Martian's money enabled the ATA to stay in Sparta just like a parent's enabling allows their kids to get away with doing drugs. Neither worked out well.

You can't be calling ollie a cheater because he allowed illegal targets to be shot at his club and then say it is OK to let the Martians into the HOF. A cheater is a cheater. They didn't deserve to be in the ATA HOF and it cheapens all of us shooters that got there by winning trap shoots.

 

Brad, I have known the Martins for over 30 years. I have never known them to ask for any thing in return for the millions they have poured into trap shooting and their facilities. The ATA was on a down hill slide before the Martins started to donate. It was started by people like Dawg, that would not abide by the rules of the game. When the rules are gone so is the sport. The ATA took all the rules off of target flight to accommadate the Pat traps, and it pick up speed after that. They changed the rules to suggestions. Now at any time a shooter can raise or lower the target height three clicks with out a height poll check. The harmony of the shoots are always interupted by shooters either waiting for the targets to be raised or lowered. It is not the same game we knew. ROGER C.

 

Roger I've known you for a lot more than 30 years, I know you have the best interests for ATA shooting at Heart but just because I know you and know that you are friends with the Martians I need to point out a few things. First off the Martians have done nothing for Trap Shooting in Ohio, or Pa, or Michigan, or any state for that matter east of Illinois. I've never seen one dollar of Martian money anywhere near Ohio.

The money that they have thrown at Tuscon has had no positive effect for shooting at large. Forty years ago when you and WPT were running Phoenix the State of Arizona had a whole chain of clubs holding ATA shoots every winter. You can name them I'm not going to, but the Martians building Tuscon for their own personal benefit has not helped even Arizona a damn bit.

You've been around as long as me and you have seen people with money come into the ATA and the powers that be will stick their noses so far up their ass for just that reason to get some of that money. Not to improve the Sport. That's how the ATA ended up with Neil Winston before the Martians, he had money and that was their ticket to the EC.

Anyone that says money ruined trap shooting is right, but not the money shooters, it was the million dollar Provo owners like Winston that wanted to shoot in front of their motor homes that led to the bank system, and then to all 100 on the same field under Winston AT THE GRAND for Gods sake, it was the k 80 owners that could buy a $40,000 engraved gun but still not break 75. And at all times someone was sticking their nose up these guys asses and helping them change the rules so they could compete.

If you really want to know who and what killed trap shooting look in the mirror and you will see the problem. It was old time shooters that allowed these carpet bagger types like Winston and the Martians to buy their way into a once great sport.

 

Brad, I agree to a certain point. The Martins did not jump in and support clubs until Phoenix failed. If they had not supported Tucson we would not even have a club in AZ. worth shooting at. I'm not saying Martin money saved the ATA, but he tried. They let him down just like they let the shooters down. I have stated many times on here, Evil will prevail, when men of honor do nothing. Roger C.

 

So, the Martins handed the ATA a ton of cash to shore up Sparta and bought their way into the ATA HOF. Seems like a fair trade to me-right Roger? Do you want more examples or maybe I should leave that up to others. It's pretty obvious talent is no longer necessary for admission.

 

Dawg, You do not know if they asked to be in the H.O.F. Why don't you ask them? Do you have a problem with people doing with their money what they want to?
Don't judge ever one by your myoptic shitty out look on life. The eastern shooters did not need help they had the DAWG to look after them. Roger C.

 

You once described talent as the means of getting into a HOF. Someone changed the rules and it's obvious you no longer believe it's necessary. What changed your mind-friendship or money?

 

I realize that I'm late to the party but, just so I understand, we are talking about some people named Martin and not a bunch of damn Martians who showed up on this planet and started trapshooting?

 

Jack O'Matic better than any Winston graph ever.

 

What an act of absolute kindness.

 

Dawg, Lets not turn this blog into a question of the Martins actions, it is about people that feel they are above following the rules of a sport. Everyone is entitled to their opinions of what started the sport of trap shooting on a downward spiral, regardless of if we agree or not we all lost a sport that we loved. I'm glad that I lived and shot in the best years of trap shooting. I met a lot of good men that are gone but never forgotten, and a very few that I don't like to remember. Most were hard competitors, but also were honest men. The new shooters will never experience what we old timers remember. Roger C.
Dawg, I have not changed my mind. Most of you never met the folks that you are disparaging.
Maybe if you knew them you would change your mind. Yes they are my friends, but if I thought my friends were doing something wrong I would not defend them.

 

Yep, I'm the kind Mod

 

Roger, I never disparaged anyone-just referring to the ATA changing the rules to let anyone into the HOF, regardless of shooting ability. You seem to have no issue with them changing some rules but not others. Some might think what the ATA did is clearly wrong others like you defend their actions. I believe shooting accomplishments are the sole requirements for a HOF induction-not money or friendship.

 

That's Dawg stuffing the toilet with the ATA mandate for 3 hole targets

 

Did they change the rule? AZ, has in their qualifications for induction into the H.O.F. if a person has contributed to the sport by working for the sport they are eligible for induction. If that is the case, no problem, if the Martins said I'll bail you out but you must put me in the H.O.F. he was wrong. I do not believe that was said. It is all conjecture on your part. Roger C.

 

Would someone please let Brad know that Martin is spelled M-a-r-t-i-n. Brad, if you did some research you would also conclude that the $300,000 Bill and LeeAnn gave to the school in Midland, Texas for an artificial surface on the football field must have led to the downfall of youth sports in that part of Texas. Check the record.

 

Roger, you fail to understand the complexity of the situation. The ATA changed the rules for admission to the HOF. You seem to be fine with them changing the rules on some things but not others. They mandated the 3-hole target for one target year meaning it likely wasn't enforced for decades. Then they changed it back. Did they ask for your permission? The HOF is now open to anyone they please regardless of talent or wins-you seem fine with that because one of your friends was accepted. He's not alone. While you're at it please describe "working for the sport"! Does that mean my managing an ATA affiliated gun club for years should make me eligible?

 

Stop. Just STOP.

 

Pail T Cyr Did the MARTINS buy their way into a Midland TX Football HOF too. They are fake HOF members as far as Trap Shooting goes. If you don't believe me just ask some of the other HOF members what they think. I have zero respect for Bill or his wife. I don't know if I ever met either of them personally but I've met a 1000 others over the years just like them. The list of people that have tried buying their way into winning at trap shooting is long indeed. A Hugh per cent-age of Money people that gravitated to trap shooting during my time hated talented people. They couldn't compeat so change the rules. That was the answer.



If Bradford wanted to put somebody in the HOF that has done some real good for Trap Shooting and all shooting sports it would be the Poterfields. They have donated over $200,000,000 to SCTP clubs. Their are many teams in Ohio that have gotten more than $300,000 each from the Midway Foundation. Money is not a bad thing to have if it is used right but buying your way into something isn't a very respectable in my opinion.

Ollie you had one main requirement to be eligible for the Trap Shooting HOF that I know makes you eligible you have to be a 25 year participant.

Unless your dead, you get a wavier, or a Martian it turns out too.

 

But Brad, I sent the ATA tons of money from the fees I collected from the shooters. I doubt I could go back that far and get an actual number. I wonder what the break point is for the amount of money given to the ATA for a HOF admission. Maybe Roger knows!

 

Dawg. Your cheating off sets any perceived good you may have done for the sport. I think it is time to ask the E.C. why they changed the rules for entrance to the H.O.F. . Was it for the money? Perish the thought or was it so maybe they could start putting them selves in the H.O.F.? Lets get this site back on track, and chastize the cheaters. Roger C.

 

So, how many more All Americans are there now compared to 1993?
And why more? More categories?
Or just a means to try and increase attendance?
Or both?

 

But Roger, I asked you if it isn't too much to ask the ATA to disqualify any or all the targets from shooters records on 2-hole targets. Since you've made the determination decades of scores from the pre1995 era are all illegal it shouldn't be a problem. While you're at it tell them to remove shooters from the HOF you feel undeserving for their poor or non-existent shooting performance. Well, then ask them how much money directly or indirectly they need for consideration. I doubt you were asked for their input on any issue. At least they asked me what I thought about returning to the 3-hole target.

 

Dawg. Your bull shit is redundant to the fact you do not have an honest or honorable bone in your body. As a person you are a complete failure. I pity you, but you still disgust me. Why would any one ask you what you thought of the three hole target, you must have been dreaming. I will not waste any more time with you. Roger C.

 

Was wondering when this marriage was going to break up.

 

Well Roger, I never asked how much I needed to contribute to major league baseball for admission to the HOF. Well, I did play Knee-High baseball back in the 50's!

 

Was it Me?

 

Brad, No, I welcome your opinions. They are honest. Roger C.

 

Right about now I'm thinking Roger is listening to an old country classic, by Hank Williams...''Your Cheating Heart''.
No need to ''walk the floor all night long'' Roger.

 

What 'big money' people caused by getting easier targets so they could break a better you-suck score is ..........

It didn't take a so-so score out of the money ...... it took the money out of a so-so score, when half of the people shooting the event broke one .....

Trapshooting without the ability to go home with more money than you show up with, is nothing more than a great way to piss-away a lot of money quickly ......

If ...... you have a lot of money, winning more of it has far less value than a plastic duck for a you-suck score .....

 

User 1, How true, I used to play Black Jack in the casinos. I was a card counter. I lost interest in doing it when I no longer needed the money. The gentleman that mentored me, was banned from the casinos in Vegas, he is long gone now, but not forgotten. He was also a money shooter. Roger C.

 

User 1 You pretty much nailed it.

 

I should know better than to enter this discussion, but there seems to be some statements I don't believe are accurate and I might like to offer some corrections. This forum is known for its endeavor to separate fact from fiction.

First, the Trapshooting Hall of Fame, Inc. is a separate entity, having its own Board of Trustees. Now I will admit that until about 2003, the annual new member to the Trustee Board had always been the outgoing ATA President so there was likely a high level of ATA influence. However, the THOF Trustees make all the decisions, not the ATA's Executive Committee or Board of Directors. And those decisions are required to be in the best interests of the Hall of Fame.

From time to time the THOF Trustees do amend their bylaws, guidelines and policies.

I would appreciate knowing exactly what rules for admission were changed as referenced in previous posts.

Thanks,

HB

 

And that is why a lot of ATA trapshooters stopped playing the options and a lot stopped shooting ATA targets.

 

Please name all those old HOF members who were not noted for their Trapshooting accomplishments. I suppose you believe ability is no longer criteria for admission- just money.

 

You supposed wrong oleolliedawg. I never mentioned a thing about criteria for admission or what I believe.

However, having been involved in a State Trap HofF, I believe enshrining shooters for their competition records or for those contributing to the betterment of our sport, or a combination of both, make perfect sense. Personally, I give shooting achievements the highest priority.

I simply asked the question because it is not clear to me what rule you and others think was changed. I'm not looking for an argument or even speaking to any specific HOF inductee. Just identify the rule for me so I can determine if I have something to comment on (as in a disagreement).

 

Know we are getting some were .

 

History Buff I never saw it in print, but I was always with the understanding that an individual needed to be a 25 year ATA member or be deceased to be considered for induction into the national trapshooting hall of fame and it would be on ability and or promotion of the sport.
I believe the HOF by laws and rules should be readily available to all ATA members.

Dave Berlet

 

The qualifications are in black and white on the Hall of Fame's website. There's two groups, shooters and contributors.

 

Mr. Berlet,

In June 1968 guidelines and qualifications were adopted and the first ten shooters and contributors were named for the first induction ceremony to be held in 1969. Those guidelines, with respect to your question on time in sport, were loosely written as follows:

"That the record established during the shooting career be over such a span of time and of such note so as to have stood the test of time."

The above rule was listed as a Permanent Guideline. Another "permanent guideline stated:

"That the person elected to the Hall of Fame be retired from active shooting competition."

Realizing the ambiguity of the words "stood the test of time," the Hall of Fame committee amended this rule in March 1969 with the following addition "or have a record of note that extends backwards through the past quarter-century (25 years) from time of election.

The establishment of a Trap HofF was actively discussed back in 1954 when the Executive Committee at that time decided that a Hall of Fame should be created. Guidelines printed in December 1954 said, "candidates whose names appear for voting should be considered on the basis of shooting ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and other contributions to the sport."

Believe it or not, the HOF Committee (President of the ATA or his appointed representative; the editor of The Sportsmen's Review and a third member who shall be someone well advised in the trapshooting game, but not an actual amateur participant) was to propose eligible candidates for selection by vote each year, the vote being done by ATA members in good standing who took the time to make their choice by mail in ballots, printed in the October 1st issue of Sportsmen's Review. Of course, that never happened when the THOF started some 14 years later in 1968.

The first Trapshooting Hall of Fame Committee was ATA President Dwight L. Brown; Betty Ann Foxworthy and the late great Jimmy Robinson.

I've never been able to determine when the time in sport was lowered from 25 years to 20 years. All I can tell you is that it was some year between 1969 and 1975 as I recall that Betty Ann Foxworthy mentioned 20 years when she reported on the criteria in documents that year (1975).

So from at least 1975, the 20 years of competition in our sport has been the requirement.

Additionally, 1975 was the same year the Trustees decided that recommendations from the Selection Committee would now be approved by a majority vote of the Trustees.

I hope this helps,

HB

 

YEAH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE DAMN MARTIANS?

 

"and other contributions to the sport" Sounds like a collection of requirements-not "or".

 

Just like ATA by-laws and rules, the Trapshooting Hall of Fame, Inc. guidelines and policies also undergo review and amendments.

As I stated, the early guidelines for selecting HofF Inductees were loosely written, only to be given greater details in future reviews.

The guideline regarding what determines contributors, enough detail in 1968 for reasonable people to understand that contributors were those who made significant contributions of administrative time and improvements to help the growth of trapshooting. It did not specify financial contributions but it would be my guess that anyone donating a huge plot of land for a homeground for the ATA might also qualify as a contributor. Philanthropy would also be and has been recognized in the contributor category.

Ligowsky, Fred Kimble and the Clyne Brothers were recognized for their inventions. Annie Oakley was enshrined for her decades of shooting, showmanship and instruction for women. I can't figure how Adolph Topperwein was never inducted. He drew more shooters to the sport than anyone I can think of. Bill & Ruthie Hunter and the Martins were inducted largely for their years of philanthropy. And the Paul Bunyan's of trapshooting earned their way in the Hall for their decades of record shooting.

Below is the article from to verify that some details regarding what those in charge of the Trapshooting Hall of Fame thought a contributor was.

Doubters can find it in Trap & Field, September 1968 issue on page 47.

​

 

20 years, HB when I got into the HOF in 2000 it was 25 years of active ATA shooting if you were alive. Betty Ann was my presenter at my induction. I don't know when they lowered the standard and I doubt anyone of the trustees know. The Martins got in because of Bradford wanting money for the Sparta HOF Building that the state of Illinois now owns. We both know that he bragged he could raise a million dollars anytime he wanted and that didn't happen, so when he wanted to build the HOF in Sparta he got the money from Bill Martin.

You sat in on the meeting when Jack offered the deal for the HOF to come to the Cardinal Center. So lets review, Bradford turned down Jack's offer without discussing it with the other trustees, after many false starts the HOF started a building in Sparta, couldn't raise the money for it, got Martin to foot the bill, they end up in the HOF in a building that the HOF nor the Martins owns, Surprise It"s Illinois's building.

Tell me this ain't a F'd Up story.

 

All I can tell you is that in the Trap & Field November article on the 1988 induction, talking about Ray Stafford, says:

"Trustee H. E. Hewett presented the induction plaque to enshrinee Ray Stafford. "In Ray's 23 years of ATA participation he has won the Clay Target Championship and the All-Around Championship at the Grand American twice each, and he has topped High-Over-All standings three times, began Dr. Hewett."

In this 1989 T&F article they again speak of the reduction from 25 years to 20 years of active participation.

And on the following page are the guidelines.

​

Every think perhaps they upped it to 25 years only in 2000, hoping you were short by a year?

 

They WERE there. In 2020

The reason given for moving the grand from the WSRC that year was the covid "pandemic" but the real reason was that a few weeks before the event was to take place an alien spacecraft landed in the field next to the HOF building and a small green man came down the ladder and spoke to the representatives of the WSRC and the HOF.

Through a freedom of information act request the following conversation was obtained.

Greetings earthlings, we come in peace. What is this place?

Welcome to earth. This is Illinois. We are the representatives of this facility and the grounds surrounding it. It is a sporting complex where humans shoot at little flying saucers and this building was erected to honor the people that destroyed the most of them. How may we be of assistance?

You shoot flying saucers? What the..

No, No, not the kind of flying saucers you are thinking of. Just little round clay things that look like flying saucers. Sorry

Hmmm, you had me worried there. I thought I was going to have to destroy this whole piece of your planet. Even that building over there that looks like a horse barn.

It does not look like a horse barn. It was built to look

Very well, we won't destroy it. Now, to the reason we are here. We have a few friends being detained since 1947 in a place your government calls area 51. I believe it is in Nevada? A very desolate place. Unfortunately, our head map and graph maker is more concerned with how fast our ship can move through space and time and doesn't keep our maps up to date.

From space we thought this was that place. We have been observing this part of your planet and have seen very little or no activity since your year 1996. We did see a small number of you humans here in your months of August but compared to what we used to see in that other place in your state of, what is it called?

Ohio, yeah, we know. Go on

Ah yes, Ohio, we know of that place. We need to find that place called area 51 and since this isn't THAT desolate place but just another desolate out in the middle of nowhere place we will be moving on. We landed once in a place like this one. I believe the people there called it by the initials BFE.

This piece of your planet would make a very suitable landing field for our ships. From space it even looks like a landing field. No humans to bother us and from what we have observed of the humans that come her in August we could blend right in.

Well, sorry to hear you can't stay and have a good trip, hope you find your friends. Oh, wait a second. If you don't mind me asking, what do you use for fuel in that spacecraft?

We use a combination of Gold and Platinum.

Really? Gold and Platinum? Hmmm, you don't happen to have spare fuel on that ship do you?

We always carry extra fuel. You never know when that map and graph maker is going to screw up and put us on the wrong course. Why do you ask?

Well, I was just thinking that, you know that building over there? The one I told you was for the humans that destroyed or broke the most of those little clay things? They get their picture on the wall for people to see and admire. It's a human thing but it is an honor and I was thinking maybe you would want your picture up there with these great people.

That is a very nice gesture earthling, but I thought you said those people had to destroy a lot of those things they shoot at to be inducted. Is there some other method that you would use to permit me to have MY picture in there?

How much extra fuel do you have on board?

 

Kenny thanks for the info, I think you are own to something. Kiner told me last year that Bradford wanted to throw me out but they just couldn't figure out how to do it, or more probably didn't have the balls to try.

I always thought they figured the Brain Aneurysm I had in 1997 was the end of me, they were wrong about that as much as about everything else, as always you and your info can't be beat, thanks for putting me straight 20 years and life.

I see David Bopp's name and even though I never saw eye to eye with him I wonder why isn't he in the HOF. Not one of Bradford's buddies I know but you'd think the other trustees would vote him in. He did oversee the ATA when it was at it's peak. I've asked you about that before.

It would have been so simple if you would have just gave me my picture back when you had the HOF packed and sealed, no one would have missed it and a hell of lot more people would have seen it every year at my hunting place. I do have the copy you made me though.

You should have let Bradford quit when he offered.

 

I think what Brad's saying is the ATA makes up its' own rules whenever it's convenient.

 

How can I as a member of the Trap Shooting HOF take being a member seriously and be proud of the organization when I look around at who is getting in and who has been kept out.

Why is Daro Handy for example out and Bradford in? I heard all the time from others that Daro was a cheater because he turned down targets, if that was true why wasn't he ever suspended for cheating?

Every target I saw him turn down was slow, maybe not what others would shoot but Daro was following the rules at the time. For God's sake he has a registered long run of over 500 from the 27, plus all his other records and wins. More than enough to be on the picture wall. But he was never with the in crowd, probably not a Mason, not one of the good old boys but his biggest sin to keep him out was he beat the crap out of a lot of those envious people in charge. So he is OUT.

The HOF was something that when I was enshrined I was proud of, an award for a lifetime of shooting, winning, and playing by the rules. It's impossible for me to be proud today with what has transpired. When you loved trap shooting like I did and you see what it has become how could I feel any other way?

 

Right on Brad-especially the Mason part.

 

Mr. Dawg,

I can't dispute your statement.

My personal view is slightly different. I think both the ATA and the THOF have decided to occasionally overlook and/or interpret their rules, guidelines and policies differently that they had in the past.

I guess I could say that not following written rules is a form of making up their own rules.

I still think highly of both organizations.

Unfortunately, it's some of the leaders who have acted inappropriately, failing to follow their own rules, which has caused many of us to lose trust in both the ATA and THOF.

Think:

2012PULL, LLC - Purchase of the ATA office, and

Donations to THOF - Construction of a museum without informing donors that it would be owned by the State.

I go to my grave always despising liars, cheaters, thief's and sneaks!

HB

 

Ollie I'm going to do a little more venting here. In 1985 I worked my ass off and broke 14 200 straights. That was one more than Ray Stafford's record of 13. I did it over the year shooting regularly scheduled shoots, state shoots, zone shoots, other big shoots, and the grand. All 14 200's were in competition, all shot over 4 or 8 different traps.

Come along a few years later and the ATA changes the rules and allows any number of targets shot, over 1 trap, and not scheduled 200 bird events. A guy I liked Earl Scripture played the game and would shoot 2 or 3 thousand targets in a day and was allowed to split them into 200 target events. He also did this with doubles. All records the ATA had became meaningless. I called it batting practice home runs. But all that had work I did and all that hard work that the shooters I chased had done was gone. THE ATA DID THAT.

We could bring up all those grand slams that were shot in Utah or El Paso, or just about anything after about 1993. Cheap and phony, no one said anything in public but a lot behind backs.

The fake All Americans and HOF enshrines should be an embarrassment to everyone other than just me as a HOF member. I think I have a right to speak out as a HOF member plus I have a duty to speak out for those dead HOF members and record holders that I admired that can't. So Let's Go Brandon"

 

What I'm wondering is it acceptable for other ATA shooters to go back over the years and count our 200 straights that were broken in 300 - 500 - or even 1000 bird events which were all regular scheduled events.

Dave Berlet

 

I don't post much, or even look at posts much, because even 'venting' too much is not a good thing .....

So I will say/post this ......

Who says there has to be only one "HOF" ????? Why not more than one to put who you want in it ?????

Why not more than one "ATA" ????? Call it The New ATA, or whatever ..... The New HOF, or whatever ......

There is this cyber-location, and the Cardinal Center as a face to face location, to do more than concede defeat ......

As the saying goes ...... "If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem" .....

And ..... "Every journey begins with the first step" ......

So ..... The only thing that seems to be stopping the 'first step' is lack of collective will .....

If ..... Those who took the first step long ago, before cyber-land, cell phones, and faster travel, could do great things ..... The lack of collective will seems to be the only reason some are not willing to do the same now .....

 

HELL NO!

 

Brad, rest assured our position on the crap some ATA officials pulled off over the years will not make us part of the chosen few. I can remember plenty.

 

Dawg, Why are you trying to suck up to Brad? You know he does not like people who cheat. (our position) You helped them in their agenda. Roger C.

 

Roger, if I'm a cheater then all those who shot and others who set those East coast 2-hole targets are just as guilty. Instead of your incessant babble what're you gonna do about it? At least we were smart enough to know setting traps in the 3-hole only gave the "big dogs' an advantage over the peons. Others couldn't figure that out.

 

User 1 I have a book titled "Sixth Annual Review and official Registered Tournament Trap shooting Averages" from the year 1920 issued by The American Trapshooting Association, I also have a book titled "First Annual Review & Third Annual List of Official Averages of Contestants in Registered Trapshooting Tournaments of 1915" issued by The Interstate Association.

I'm just bringing these up because it is evidence that for years trapshooting was in a flux. These are in Kenny's wheel house and he can give anyone any info about those long ago years.

The Shooting industry eventually turned the rules and record keeping over to the forerunners of today's ATA. They hoped that men of integrity would run trapshooting, and I think basically so that the industry didn't have to. This worked for many decades until like anything the farther away from the founders it got the more it was bastardized.

So what was founded as a record keeping and tournament running organization turned into the old boy's club of today.

Look at today's most successful target shooting venture, The SCTP. It is run by the industry. Why do I point this out because I think the only hope organized registered trapshooting has is if the industry would take it back and let professionals manage the Rules and Records like they do the SCTP.

Registered trap shooting has surrendered it's once dominate position as far as the industry goes so I don't know why they would want to a care to but it would be the best thing for registered shooting. Or maybe after a complete collapse of the ATA state trap associations because of lack of participants the industry will see the need and do it, but don't count on it. They are very successful with the SCTP which has all the shotgun target sports covered.

I'm like you User 1 I'd love to see something positive possible but you have to admit with the ATA States delegates we have there is NO WAY it will happen. You know the more I think about it the more I see that the industry would be fools to try and help out the bunch running registered trap shooting today. "Let's Go Brandon" ain't just for politics anymore.

 

User 1,

I give you my "word of honor" that your idea and several other options were presented to the THOF Trustees.

Rather than package everything up and keep the museum collection in storage where nobody could see it, Trustees were given the suggestion to operate from the Cardinal Center museum graciously offered by Mr. Fishburn until the Sparta museum was completed. Then, have two museums in operation, rotating different displays between both locations. Only one Trustee agreed with the idea. Others spoke against it while some just kept quiet on the issue.

I can assure you, it took a great deal of convincing, for Trustees to agree to keep the THOF firearm collection in public view by accepting the request from the NRA, allowing them to transport, display them at a Bass Pro in Missouri and the safe return of the collection.

I like the idea that the museum should be located with the Grand American tournament.

However, first and foremost is the fiduciary duty to the organization. The THOF & museum needs support from visitors and donors to be successful. Location directly affects the stability of the organization.

Several people saw the museum's future much brighter and operating more successfully in a location other than Sparta, IL.

But, guarantees had already been given to the ATA, that the Hall of Fame would follow them to wherever they held the Grand American. This, in light of warnings that there would be a reduction in financial support, viewership and donations of memorabilia.

Solutions were offered.
There was a collective will.
Reminders of free land adjacent to the WSRC for both the ATA & THOF were expressed.

Nothing mattered to those in charge. They felt their decision was best. Their minds will never be changed.

Many others thought (and still think) they were wrong.

 

Mr. Dysinger,

I don't know the answer to your question regarding Mr. Daro Handy.

I do believe your claim that you never saw Mr. Handy cheat or turn down a legal target. It's been many years now but I too followed Mr. Handy down the line watching him turn down targets he believed were slow or fast pulls. He did not appear to be afraid of hard angles to me. If the target came out on time, he smoked it, no matter the direction.

One reason Mr. Handy may not be in the Hall of Fame could be that nobody ever took the time to submit a nomination for him. Hard to believe, but I've asked the question concerning several other shooters and found that they had never been nominated.

If I were King . . . . . . .

1. I would ensure a list of all nominees would be in Trap & Field each month. A note would be included stating that being nominated does not determine that they currently meet the qualifications. Please consider submitting updates on any nominee as it might help them qualify in the future.

2. I would give recommendations by the Selection Committee the highest consideration since it is they who collect all the research on the nominees. It is they who are in the best position to select future inductees. There would never be anyone inducted bypassing the Selection Committee.

3. The THOF would own their land and museum.

4. I would never mislead any donor

5. All minutes and financial reports would appear in Trap & Field just as they once did. There would be nothing to hide from public view.

Dang it Mr. Dysinger, now you got me getting involved again.

HB

 

I don't think any of us will live long enough to "take back" organized registered Trapshooting as it is now ....

Maybe 'take away' with a replacement.

I can understand why people would like to "take back" what they have put great time and effort in ...... I just think that ship was allowed to go too far underwater to save ......

Maybe someday before we are all gone there can be a take back or take away ...... either way, in my opinion, it would be time better spent than having pissing contests about the past .....

 

"nobody ever took the time to submit a nomination for him."


Well that explains why I'm not in the HOF.

 

"Always split Aces and eights and never split 4,5s and 10s" LOL Back in the recession of the early 80s, I spent 80-81 in Nevada mostly in Vegas. I supported myself counting cards playing Blackjack, single decks. I would start to play around 4:30 - 5am when a lot of the time I could play at table by myself or with only one other player. My goal was to make $100 a day. I didn't attain that most of the time. Sometimes I would get ran over too. I remember walking into the Dunes one morning and losing 13 straight hands. It took me a week to 10 days before I played again. The really weird part was winning - you couldn't let it be known you were winning. I never stacked my chips in a neat stack, spread em out everywhere so the casino/dealer counting get a read on if I was winning or behind. I would quit suddenly and just stand up and start putting chips into my pocket, dealer would say - hey, hey let me round those up for you. I would pull half my chips out of pocket and let them do that. leaving the other half in. They knew what I bought in for and I always managed to cash out or round up for less than that when I left the table. Cash the hidden chips in my pocket another day or another shift..

I was using the plus minus system. I was just counting cards, using my brain, not cheating. Still the casinos made it known card counters were unwelcomed and if suspected - 86th out of place. So it felt weird winning. I was small fry though. My bets never varied more 5x my initial bet. I wasn't stupid betting $5 on one hand then half way through the deck start betting $100 a hand when the deck went positive 6 or 7. You may as well put a sign up - "hey I'm counting over here." if you did that. LOL

Sorry didn't mean to get off on a tangent.

Do you think it is still possible to be a card counter in the casinos anymore? With multi decks, shoes and they never deal passed the halfway mark in the decks anymore, I don't think it is possible anymore. Oh you could still count em but by the time the deck started to turn positive they would reshuffle.

 

Dawg, People who cheat at a game, CAN NOT BE TRUSTED AT ANY THING. The two hole target did not help, the little dogs, it ran off more shooters than it created. They still suckled the hind tit. It was just a little closer to the big dogs score. The two hole target was just one of many bad moves that ruined the sport of trap shooting. We set three hole targets up till the end at Phoenix Trap & Skeet, we also had 44, 200 straights at the last spring grand. If any one wanted targets changed we checked with the height pole, if they were within the limits in the rule book. they were told to shoot them. Roger C.

 

Roger, thanks for your info. 44-200 straights on 3-hole targets while we're happy to get a few here in PA on 2-hole targets. Like I often said PA targets are much harder in the 2-hole because of limited visibility than anything AZ could throw. You prove my point again and again. Thank you!

 

I shot with Maryland's top 16 yard shooter Dick Forrest back in the late 70's or early 80's at the PA state shoot.
He had the only 200.
I'll never forget what Frank L said about Dick's shooting style, ''No one should be able to break targets the way he shoots''.
Dick would ride the target until it went into the next zip code.

 

Kenny I knew you still cared, though I'm still upset you didn't take Bradford's offer to resign because of what he did to you when he made it. Oh what a better trapshooting world it would have been.

Ollie Arizona was defiantly easier than PA, but PA was easier than FL. Nevada was easier than AZ, but Colorado was easier than Nevada. A lot of which state was easier when I shot them was the time of year. Ohio in the Winter and Spring sucked but when August and the grand rolled around it was great.

Arizona could be so pretty one day and winder than hell the next on the winter chain, same with Las Vegas or Reno but I shot them both in the summer and I never shot an easier place to break 27 yard targets.

Shooting in the winter you also have to think about the low angle of the sun in the sky, in the summer it's right over your head. Of course if you shot Phoenix you also thought about the time of day, Phoenix faced east.

In the old days PA somewhat the same when you went around the bend to the traps on the bottom, at least they had a bar there for your ending, we walked the line back then. Phoenix on the other hand you had to walk all the way to the club house to hit the bar.

Ollie I also think you stumbled onto the truth without looking for it. You had a whole gob of Easterners (delegates) that couldn't understand why so many good scores out west and why so few back east. Westerners thought they were the better shooters and Easterners got an inferiority complex because they thought they sucked. At the Grand westerners for the most part fell on their faces and easterners won events, so the Westerners answer move the Grand West, Vandalia is old and too hard. The answer was blame the place and location and MOVE to my place I'll do better.

I would guess that the vast majority of trap shooters back then had no idea what they were doing when they went east or west. The ones that did like Kay and Frank did very well, of course there were a lot of others but you get my drift. I can remember Larry Bumstead coming to Thurmount and breaking a 100 straight from 27 but Britt Robinson at Thurmont telling me that if the plane taking him back to TX would land in the parking lot he'd get on it right now.

The reason I can say all this is because I shot everywhere in the country (38 states) for over three decades and could look at my own record, plus I knew so many shooters all over the country. My scores said I was two different shooters, one east of Ohio and one west of the Mississippi river.

So I'll sum up what happened, the east went to 2 hole because of feeling inferior and drug all the west (rule change) with them. A 2 hole at Reno or Vegas was like a center target in Pa and there you have the rest of the story as short as I can make it.

 

Brad, you're making too much sense-stop it! Thanks for refreshing my memory!

 

I remember what Kay said about shooting out west. ''I add a few more hits to my score the instant I step off the plane''.
A little different then what Britt said,

 

The difficulty of the targets does not determine the winner, beating the guy that comes in second does. If every one is shooting the same targets the better shooter will almost always win. Some clubs in the mid west used the one hole for their registered targets, they also removed the interuptors from their machines. It was reported to the ATA, but they made a graph and it went away. Roger C.

 

Time out! There has been the implication that no one cares or has tried!

I was at the OSTA regular meeting a few years ago. Once I started quizzing the delegate, at his portion of the meeting, then President Miller, interrupted me stating that the Delegate does not have to answer questions. To no one's surprise that did not make it into the minutes.

This year I asked more questions.....things got more interesting...


I wanted to know or show how much our delegate was involved in the goal making and planning for ATA success. That our delegate was looking out for the best interest of Ohio Trapshooters.

Question 1....
How much were you involved in the ATA Director’s contract? Such as benchmarks for bonuses?

Answer:
“A while back”….(not sure what date he said) “we gave the Executive Committee the power to negotiate contracts.”
“Yes I know that. I am asking how much you were involved in establishing those goals and benchmarks?”
“Not at all.” my Delegate said.
“Have you even seen the contract?
“No I have never seen the contract. But, if you want to drive to Illinois you can see it for yourself.”
“The reason I ask," I said, "is because the ATA filed an IRS Form 990 that specifically states the Board of Directors approved these yearly bonuses.”
“That isn’t true”, he replied. “We didn’t approve them.”
And you would think that was the end. Nope

Now for the bizarre!

“One more question for the delegate. How long is the Executive Director’s contract?
“As long as he wants. He serves at his discretion.”

Previously posted..https://www.americantrapshooter.com...at-the-osta-meeting-more-like-shocking.15269/

And wouldn't you know not all that made it to the minutes.

 

Some might ask why is the above conversation important? The bonuses in the Executive Director's contract are there to reflect the goals of the ATA. The OSTA Delegate didn't even have a clue what the goals are. He said he never saw the contract. Actually, none of the Delegates that I can find know.

I quizzed President Hayes about it. He disappeared from the website. Who didn't see that coming?

I also had a phone call with Paul Shaw about the same topic. Similar results.

I received a heads up from Phil Kiner on this. Where did he go?

None of the delegates have a clue what the goals / bonus plan is for the ATA Executive Director?

 

Do you have a right to inspect the documents of the ATA? That would include contracts right?

According to ATA Bylaws

Members shall have any right of inspecting any account, book or document of this corporation except as conferred by statute, unless authorized by a resolution of the Members or Directors;

So why doesn't your delegate know? Why dont you? We had a thread here about the new President. He should give you a copy of that right? Where are all those that were patting him on the back?

 

A 1973 song by the “Hues Corporation” comes to mind. Maybe they played it before every meeting.

 

flyer's a song would be better than a graph right about now. I think Family Guy is about to slip into the abyss. I almost think Roger and Ollie are close to agreeing on something. The History Buff is close to saying what he really thinks about Bradford and the other HOF trustees. It appears that love and harmony is about to break out on the Web. And just think my thread has brought all together in this joyful season.

I can only say one post closer to 300 and "Let's Go Brandon"

 

Brad, you are one sick puppy. You already know there's a thin line between love and hate.

 

About the 300 posts. Is that by ATA count? In other words is that 300 different shooters or 2 shooters doing 90% of the posting?

 

Rookieshooter A very good question I'm sure that info can be put into a graph, a song or poem would be nice too. I fear for you this will get the same answer that family guy gets from the Ohio delegate when he asks him a question.

My sister is a Wizard of Oz nut. She's has about as much Oz stuff as I do ATA. I'm not sure which one of us was more based in reality.

I collect old books I HAVE HUNDREDS. I have just about every trapshooting book I know of. When talking to Kenny yesterday on the phone our conversation made be remember a book that I think was written by Bradford and sold by the HOF about 2003, 2004. It's long out of print but if anyone has a copy they'd like to sell let me know, The title was "Sometime Over the Rainbow" subtitled "The future ATA and the Wonderful Life Ahead in Illinois"


I'm not sure if was in the Fiction or Fantasy, section originally, but I've looking in the scrap heap of History and BS section today. "Let's Go Brandon"

 

" I collect old books I HAVE HUNDREDS"

After seeing what one book can do that should keep us going for another 30 days.

 

OK, here's the deal. This is post 299 and I'm feeling pretty generous since it's that time of year.

Dawg, If you can pull the trigger (release in your case) quick enough you can be number 300

That will give you 96 posts on this thread. The same as your 16's average?

 

Heh, I'm not always a 96 but I did carry a 98.28 once. I only ate at Taco Bell once too! Happy?