The year 1993 in the ATA

I found my old 1993 average book and got to looking at some of the numbers. In 1993 there were 96,351 ATA members. The active members were 55,413. There were 5531 registered shoots that year.

The All American teams had Men 1st team 9, men's 2nd 14 for 23 total men. Women's 1st team 8, women's 2nd 10 for total of 18. Jr's 1st team had 6, 2nd team 9 for total of15. Sub Jr 1st team 6, 2nd team 11 for total of 17. The vets had 10 on their team and the Sr vets had 7 for a total of 17. There was also an Industry team that had 5.

So with all those shooters, over 55 thousand there were less than 100 All Americans total. Just 95.

 

You know what guys? If we handed out more of those All American certificates we would probably get more people paying dues and fees.

Waddda think?

Hey, it's all about the money so, yeah, I'm in. How many more are you thinking? Another dozen or so?

A dozen? Hahahah, way more than that.

 

Yup, and they threw two-hole targets and there still was money in the game.

 

I averaged .9527 that year on 7800 targets from the 27 yard line. How many shooters in the ATA broke even one 95 that year? Two hole targets were too easy for me and I wasn't even in the top 5 in averages. Most shooters didn't stand a chance against me that year in handicap. And for that matter any year that 2 hole shorties were thrown.

The easy birds gave the best shooters an unfair advantage and it didn't take too long for the average shooter to realize NO MONEY. Steve Carmichael's book tells anyone who wants to know a lot. Even if they don't want to believe it.

 

In around 1993 my kid pulled $4,500 for runner up in Handicap at MD. As you know two hole targets since you were there Most of the money players from that era are dead or go to a casino. Many of 'em were old war vets who'd gamble on how many fish were in a tank. Just go back to 3-hole targets and eliminate voice systems-only bubble gum chewing young female pullers planning their date night and most of the big dogs will quit. Besides, those old Winchester hand sets threw better targets and the composition made more sootballs. Yeah, I remember those old Remington targets they threw. I also remember when your squad of You, Leo and Lucky didn't break any records at one of those shoots.

 

Well, I did set a personal record at MD when I clearly missed a target that continued flying until a shooter from an adjacent trap smoked it. The puller just started calling "LOST" when the target broke-those traps were close together. Only time that's ever happened to me!

 

Ollie in 1993 I won the the Maryland State Handicap with a lone 99. That win gave me all the state Maryland Championships which as far as I remember made me the first person to have ever done it. It was from 27 yards by the way, So your kid was runner up to me and I won over 7000. Your memory is as faulty as your thinking.

 

I said around 1993. My kid had a 98 while some other kid came in with a 99. My memory is great and so was my vision. I never said it was the State Championship but it could easily have been the Eastern Zone. That was a mere 30 years ago.

 

Trust me-you didn't break squat the time we watched you, Leo and Lucky shooting right in front of the old clubhouse.

 

One trap a season didn't make any year of shooting for me and what some old fart wants to think he remembers doesn't mean shit to me either. I listened to your revisionists trap shooting history on here for far to long without calling you out. I shot in Pa off and on since 1983 and a lot from 1986 to 1995 and I never even knew who you were until I started seeing you on this site. You were obviously one of those on the side lines and in the background as far as I knew.

If you followed me and Leo around you would have seen us both shoot a bunch of stinking traps, but then again neither of us are remembered today for the ones we missed but the ones we broke. I remember something that Larry Gravestock said that stuck with me ever since 1974 when I heard it. He was asked about shooting an 80 in caps and why it didn't bother him. His answer was that he had a 90 average and to get that average that 80 would have to have a 100 straight somewhere in the future.

So go and check my average in whatever year you decide too back then, check my wins in Pa and Thurmont in that same year that you remember and trust me I don't care about anything you say you remember or saw. It would be nice if your memory was so good you would back something up with dates and facts but like Biden we are just to trust you. "Let's Go Brandon"

 

Well, let's look at it another way. Lucky was good at personally taking the scoresheet back to the office when you guys were done shooting. How nice of him, Yeah, I know, Lucky was one of the most upstanding individuals in Trapshooting those days.

Are you telling us you shot 3-hole targets in PA and MD in the 90's or even the 80's?

 

I knew this was going to be at least a 2 boxes of popcorn thread and that’s OK but “dawg”,
I know what you are trying to insinuate with

"Lucky was good at personally taking the scoresheet back to the office when you guys were done shooting. How nice of him,"

and as moderator I don’t like the insinuation. Now, I know that you don't care what I think but,

If you think he did something with those sheets state what you think he did and then show the proof.

You can delete the insinuation yourself

EDIT: On second thought dawg, leave the swipe at Lucky up. You're on your own.

 

Where was Mr C Stauber at during this implied event?

 

Flyersarebest, don't take that post down, a card is laid is a card played.

One thing I know is that at every club I shot I shot whatever targets were thrown and never did I complain if they looked short or narrow to me. It appears you are calling me a cheater so you better be prepared to back that up with more than your month when I see you again.

 

Done, I edited my post to show that the "dawg" is on his own with this one.

 

Wow! I’ve shot enough targets with Brad to tell you that whatever a target claimer was in those days, he was the exact opposite. If Brad thought he missed a target it was going to be scored as lost, period. Didn’t matter if the scorekeeper thought they saw a piece. Brad is many things but a cheater isn’t one of them. Let’s go Brandon!

 

First of all, I never called Brad a cheater-not once. All I did say is it seemed unusual to see Lucky personally take the scoresheet into the office. That said, I have a witness who watched it all. Wow, it's really nice to see all those individuals rush to Lucky's defense-his reputation must be beyond reproach. So Brad, please tell all of us how many 3-hole targets you shot in PA and MD during those years. I can tell you-none. So Brad, you know nothing about any shady scorekeeping in all those years you spent shooting?

 

Nope, I would never accuse Brad or Leo cheating in that circumstance since they had no control over what happened to that scoresheet after it was hand carried into the office. Let's just say the posted scores were appreciably higher than the results on the fields we watched. I suppose my eyes must have missed some really small pieces that day. Of course I must have been near 40 yo then. Time marches on!

 

Ollie, why at this point in time would you try to cast doubt on a couple of shooters integrity who I shot with quite a bit and I am satisfied that they never took a target that they didn't break. Also being 30 or so years in the past what you remember and what you think you remember are quite possibly 2 different things. If some transgressions happened that day right in front of you I would think that you would have seen to it that they were addressed at that time instead of waiting all these years to p and moan about it now. You stated earlier in this post that you weren't even sure about what shoot your son shot the score that was mentioned, but you can remember vividly something to cast a shadow on some others integrity. Could it be that the older you get the better you used to be.

Dave Berlet

 

Some of us still remember those narrow, short targets thrown at Spanish Forks back in the old days. Once the chosen ones got their Grand Slams the ATA took a

Not really Dave. Let's just say it made quite an impression on my young son who also witnessed the entire incident. To say none of us ever received an occasional free target over the years-myself included-would certainly be a lie. But to say corruption never occurred in our sport would also show we're in denial. I never said either Brad or Leo, who I considered fine individuals and examples of the best the ATA had to offer would be guilty of anything. Of course, I could go on and on about many incidents I've witnessed over the years that were very questionable. Let's just say the targets at Thurmont MD must have been real easy as I broke 200 there once. Yup, the payouts there were great-targets in the 2-hole-and it was one of my favorite places to shoot but to say the demise of the ATA was account of narrower targets ignores all of the changes that occurred during that time period.

 

oleolliedawg, For a two hole specialist to insinuate that the scores were changed a pretty low blow. Roger C.

 

If this happened that day I'm quite sure that your son was quite disappointed in his dad for not reporting and having it taken care of when it happened.

Dave Berlet

 

Creepy post dawg! I hope your son isn’t like you.

 

Look, what happened nearly 30 years ago is certainly water over the dam. As far as reporting cheating I once went to the head of the Central Handicap Committee at the Grand and reported a professional sandbagger who I stated was gonna clean house. Guess what, he did nothing. The bagger went out and broke a 99 in the Preliminary Handicap and played the ticket. Anyone who knows me will let you know I've been great at rooting out corruption in our game on more than a few occasions. If some of us continue to deny this crap happened many times in the past then maybe it's time to look inward. To go on here and say 2-hole targets were the end of the ATA as we knew it should also admit that most of the places we shot those days were in the 2-hole. The last place in PA that held onto 3-hole target settings was the old South End Gun Club in Reading PA and that was likely back in the 80's. Time to get off that 2-hole target crap as I know of no club that still shoots over an old Western hand set trap with multiple hole settings. If some club threw targets farther than the rules dictated then the targets were illegal-read the rule book! Some of us remember when Bowling was one of the most popular games in the country and guess what-it's dead. Sporting Clays ate our lunch and the Casinos took away the gamblers. BTW, Casinos had a record profit this year-regardless of Covid. That said. I'm only the messenger and if more examples of cheating will accomplish anything I can easily provide many but in reality it won't change anything. Some of us need stop living in the past!

 

Dawg
You are trying dilute your stupid post. You are messed up. It got you attention. Not the attention you wanted? I get tired of hearing you tell us how old you are. Senility is no excuse.

Go / yourself

 

Denial only gets you into a 12 step program. Look one up!

 

Dawg, By your own previous admission, you were one of the perp's that thru two hole targets, that was considered cheating, when it went against the rule book. Did you report that? Your creditability has bottomed out. Roger C.

 

So you got nothing Dawg? Brad whipped you in a debate and this is your classless act?

 

Sometimes not all of us can be in the parade. Some of us have to sit on the curb and clap as it goes by. So, grab a bag of Orville's popcorn, any flavor you like, and sit back and watch.

Flyersarebest
Moderator
The good one

 

Bowling is making a return… it’s cheaper than trapshooting…

 

Ollie,you seem to have dug yourself into a hole and it seems to be getting deeper. Maybe the best thing for you to do would be to quit digging?

Dave Berlet

 

Yup, sure did as did nearly all of the local clubs in PA starting in the 70's. BTW, I was personally approached by the then ATA President and Treasurer for an opinion on mandating 3-hole targets in the following target year and said go for it. We all know how well that went over. FYI, I also shot plenty of 2.5 hole targets in the 60's and 70's. I'm sure glad some of us are so trustworthy they'd never question a situation where an ATA President personally takes a scoresheet into the office. Heck, here in PA many of us still remember a few clubs, shooters and club managers who were found guilty of padding target totals, scores and even Lewis Class payouts to their favor. Well, at my age I learned to trust nothing.

Getting back to the 2 vs 3 hole target discussion let's first admit most clubs on the East coast have been throwing 2-hole targets for decades. That includes PA, NJ,MD and probably VA. My wife started shooting ATA in 1997 and never experienced a wider target. Brad came on here claiming the demise of the ATA began with throwing 2-hole targets. That's got to be the silliest reason for reduced participation ever. Looking back we might see scoring improved for many factors like improved ammo, adjustable impact guns and the biggie-voice activated release systems. Heck, if we want to reduce scoring just make plastic wads and hard shot illegal and it will be quite an accomplishment to make and stay on the 27 yd. line. No need to clean up those environmentally damaging wads anymore.

Look, as TD in OH Brad could have used his influence and made Cardinal Center the hub of the new Trapshooting movement toward wider and longer target settings but that never happened. I remember when most of us found the cheapest hotel, spent a good portion of the evening at a local bar and couldn't sleep much the night before a major shoot. DWI laws sure changed that. We sure had fun, options were cheap and so were the guns. Options were played by around a 50% of the shooters Does anyone actually still think the motor home crowd driving $250,000 plus homes actually worries about bringing home a $50 bill for a Lewis class hit?

Some have questioned my integrity. Well, let's cite an example we can all relate to. A few years ago at the Silver Dollar my wife and I were shooting on a squad together. We both make it a habit to observe ours and other shooters targets while shooting. One individual clearly missed a target but the puller never called lost and the shooter was credited with a 25. After we completed shooting and the aforementioned shooter finished with a 100 my wife said "do you know who that shooter was?" Not being a hero worshipper I didn't have any idea. Well, she said, he's captain of the All-American team. Should I have questioned the scoring with the puller or shoot management or even confronted the shooter? Guaranteed that would have got me thrown off the grounds for disrupting the harmony of the shoot. What would all you better than thou detractors have done?

 

Dawg, You can make all the excuses you want to. but you are still a cheater. All of your accomplishments are in question. You have no honor. Roger C.
PS; Are you saying that most of the PA. shooters are also cheaters? And that the club managers were also. That is an insult to all of the honorable shooters in the state.

 

Could it be that the puller saw a chip? Maybe the score keeper had better eyes then you. Not mentioning the shooter who may have also seen a chip.
So now you cast doubts on the score keeper and the capt of the All American team with no proof.
Reminds me of a Sermon I heard many years ago about how evil the tongue can be.

 

I stand by my assessment of easy birds killing the ATA even if an admitted cheater calls me silly now. I guess the cheater part didn't take too well so he's hoping silly will.

One thing I'd like to point out to the dog is that everything I have today was paid for by people who thought they knew more about trap shooting than I did. Read Steve's book, he gets it too. Or maybe he doesn't know anything either.

 

Brad, well over 90% of the shooters we started shooting with who even cared a little about what hole the targets were set at are dead or no longer shooting. Roger, maybe you should read what I just said. Maybe it's time to admit we threw away all those old Western hand set with drill holes years ago. I don't care what Steve believes in as it's his opinion and an opinion coming from another old has been who no longer shoots and dreams of the old days. Brad, you and I have been shooting so called "easy birds" for decades and sometimes we had not so great days even on those. If you think tougher targets will save the ATA work on making Cardinal Center the "new" ATA and watch attendance grow-wanna bet you'll fall flat. You were the TD once you know.

Roger, you claim to know so much about tougher targets but just how many of your ATA All-American friends come to PA, fall on their ass, never to return. Heck, you certainly can throw a much wider target in AZ without trees, tree trunks South and East facing traps and few background obstructions like we have here in the East and a "2-hole" is more than enough target to keep things tough. So. please remember most traps in the East were in the 2-hole starting in the 70's.

BTW, Kay Ohye's handicap average went UP .5% the year 3-hole targets were mandated. So much for that logic!

 

Roger, stop that honor bullshit. Just saying some club managers and shooters got caught padding scores and you rise to their defense. You're starting to sound like a Biden voter. Maybe if you got your head out of your butt you might have heard of the incidents I mentioned or maybe news doesn't travel fast in AZ. Of course you remember nothing of a similar situation in the Southwest where ATA Grand Slams in Handicap were often completed on real soft targets.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "It's all fun and games until someone ends up with the bull-head clap."

 

Dawg, I do not need a lecture from a self confessed cheater about honor. If you cheat at a any game requiring skill you have none. So do not try and say every one else did it, to cover your own lack of integrity, that shit will not fly here. By stating all clubs did it, you are trying to bring all clubs down to you disgusting level. maybe you should take Mr. Berlet's advise and stop digging. You have proven your point, you have no honor and very little integrity. I hope you meet up with Brad, and he insists that you explain why you would say he cheated. Roger C.

 

I need to change my name to Western PA Bob. Moderator said no.

I am on the PA OH line. And we heard the Eastern PA were cheating. Just BS rumors. I never thought someone that has bragged about managing a club and setting targets would confess. And then bringing up Kay Ohye. I get that he shoots there a lot. And probably shot in that area. So his average went up? And did he shoot more in Eastern PA? Is he a member of dawgs club. Close enough dawg implied. If I understood.

It gives me cause to think how many targets Dawg set for him and his pal Frank.

No wonder the Big Shooters from that era failed miserably at the Grand.

I can tell you all the clubs from PA near the OH border were shooting 3 hole targets. I never considered a drive to dawgs club and cheat with the cheaters.

Mods....please reconsider...I dont want to be associated with cheats.

 

I admire your integrity...Bravo!

 

Dawg, Is trying to paint all PA. shooters with the same brush to cover up for his cheating. It will not work. Roger C.

 

Way back at the beginning of this thread I was guilty of posting facts about the year 1993. No one has been able to argue about those facts. Targets were set in the two hole that year, then again in 1994 at MANY CLUBS I SHOT. My original point was that 2 hole birds gave me a tremendous advantage over less experienced and less talented shooters.

Some people scream 30 yard line as the answer but then admit they were some of the ones setting short narrow targets and then bitching about me, or Kay, or Leo for breaking them. This is what happens when you let occupy the 27 yard line think at management level in the ATA.

If you weren't good enough to be competitive at the 27 so then making the targets easy and then bitching about the pros just proves how dumb you are. The ATA is going great isn't?

By the way PA BOB if you are from western Pa I'm sure you shot at Steubenville a time or two, how easy would you say those targets were in 93? Or maybe you shot at Middletown then too. See any one holers there in 93?

 

Roger, whatever you're smoking please save me some. Then, while you're at it, please tell all of us how many places you shot over 2-hole targets and how often you refused to shoot any targets you deemed too easy. So, since you failed to rectify the situation you are just as guilty. That, and, the way you're shooting now, a 1-hole might be a bit overwhelming!

 

I see news about the PA delegate catching a club throwing ATA targets without pullers or scoresheets never reached Western PA. I suppose people out there only communicate via carrier pigeon or tin cans on a string. Some of 'em still believe Frank Little got special shells that Joe Wonder with his $99 Chrony who raided Frank's garage, stole his ammo and proved their point. That's what happens when you're not qualified to carry Frank's shellbag. Others believe, "hero worshippers" that a former ATA All-American Captain couldn't possibly miss and get a free target. Of course, like any of these instances they babble about none were actually there.

 

Brad, you brought up a valid point. Making targets wider and longer would certainly reduce the need for a 30 yd. line. Unfortunately, the very shooters you're trying to help would simply suck even more. Yes, the ATA is on life support and our ranks are suffering from replenishment issues. Of course, the thousands of young kids that have been recruited are inflating the numbers but ultimately when daddy and mommy stop paying the freight they're gone and as you know mostly for good. That said, plenty of 'em are parading around with $15,000 Perazzis, Krieghoffs and Guerinis but seldom play a dime in options and shoot half price targets. That simply says the few left after they find the opposite sex are not gonna play options. So, if changing target settings will somehow bring the money back to Trapshooting I'd say it's a fools mission. Gee, I'm starting to sound way too much like our deceased graphmeister more everyday! Brad, are they still throwing targets at Middletown and Steubenville and if they aren't-why not?

 

"I see news about the PA delegate catching a club throwing ATA targets without pullers or scoresheets never reached Western PA"

Not to side track this great thread dawg, but myself and a fellow member that I have been friends with since 1982, and a great shot himself, that shot on the same squad with Glenn for years knew about the 3 amigos doing there smoke and mirrors shooting long before you did. In fact this fellow member was the one that called Glenn and told him about it. His phone call was the reason Glenn went to Washington to start the investigation. How do you think he found out about it? I shot at that club before you knew it existed.

So no, we don't depend on carrier pigeons or tin cans and string.

Just sayin...

BTW, do you know what happened to all those score sheets? Or did you just hear they went missing?

Now, back to the show.

 

Does Middletown still have that boy mowing the grass up there? I used to even see him working behind the counter from time to time...

 

I deleted that word you used to describe that person. Geeeeez, sometimes I just shake my head.

 

You mean when I described him as the ______ boy?

 

Well, Washington was only one of the clubs guilty of creative scorekeeping and Bucks County in Eastern PA was the other. Hey, one local shooter who could barely stand for a 50 target event broke nothing but 100's and 99's-as many as 300/ day. Poor Glenn had his hands full with that one. As I recall, some shooters had multiple scores removed from their records since no scoresheets were available to the investigators. Some things were swept under the rug for reasons I'm not willing to divulge on here-only on PM. We won't even discuss the incidents at South End and the club in Central PA where creative scorekeeping was also the norm. At least here in PA we do police our ranks at times.

 

Maybe the title of this thread should be;
The year 1993, The Thread of Infamy.

Think I may need more popcorn, this time I'm going Kettle corn.

 

Just so happens Kay only shot live birds at my club-never an ATA target. What would you care, Kay can barely walk now but he's still good enough to to take every dime you'd have balls enough to bet against him. Yeah Frank did miss the 100'th target for a straight at my club but I can't recall what he broke on the other 200 while shooting with Gene Anastasia. Great shot and great times!

 

Were the other squad members, ''Doc'' Coniglio and the Russo Bros?

 

Nope, the Russo Brothers only shot live birds there and I believe one of the squadmates may have been Emmerson B.

 

Yeah that's the word

 

Dawg, I was an Ohio shooter until I moved my company to Arizona in 1988. I helped set targets at Vandalia, and when I left the field the machine was in the #3 hole.
By the way I Do not smoke, drink, or cheat. Do you smoke or drink?
I set the targets every day at the Spring Grand, at the Phoenix club, and we NEVER had a machine in the #2 hole that was from 1989 till 2001. Keep trying to justify your unsportsman like actions, but most of us shooters are not buying your bullshit.
The way I'm shooting now is no way to judge my honesty as a shooter. I am 85 years young, and have had two strokes, but mentally I have not had to cheat on my scores. I still have my honor can you say the same. Now you crawl back in your hole and quit insulting the real shooters with you blather. Roger C. .

 

Dawg, I believe you had a club full of cheaters. It’s your word right? And your friends around your were cheaters too. I believe you. Let’s say you have a moderate memory. Tell us the names of all your cheating friends.

Must be hundreds right. I will settle for about fifty.

And how about your club name. Let’s put the cheaters’ club name out there.

 

I see you're conveniently ignoring those target setting cheaters in NJ, MD and probably VA. Since you claim to have shot all those 3-hole targets please inform us where, when. and how your averages differed. Then tell all of us how many trap ranges welcomed you into their traps to make sure the targets were wide enough for you and your chronies. That said you're fos!

 

So you're still using old Western traps in 2001? Did they have flush toilets at your trap range then? We had indoor facilities at our range and a bar too!

 

Brad, another interesting point you made. Back in those old days (pre-1993) the ATA stopped policing allowing multiple shoots at nearby locations. What that did was cut the pizza into much smaller pieces and made local ATA shoots less lucrative. I remember running 50 squads on a typical Sunday at our local shoot over 6 traps. Try that today and you're lucky to get 6 squads. Then the larger venues started running more shoots, zone shoots and mini-grands leaving few dates open. Sure, running 50 squads on a day was profitable but it still takes a full day to run 3 events with little to show for it. That's why the numbers of small clubs dwindled.

 

Dawg, We had flush toilets before you cheaters ever heard of them. You have shit in your hat with your statement (I set 2 hole targets). What is the wrong with the old X traps. It was easy to tell the difference between #2 #3 hole. on them, was that to difficult for you? You are a self admitted cheater, there is no amount of excuses that can justify what you did. saying that every one was doing it, with out proof will not fly.
Why don't you answer butterly's question and give him a few names, so they can verify the statements you have made. I'm sure they will be happy you still remember them. Keep on talking as your creditability can not get much lower. Roger C.

 

What's an "X Trap"-must be an AZ term for a Remington 4100 or something. Names, heck most of the old club managers I remember are now fossils-same as you. So what hole are your current traps in so I can recommend all future club managers comply with your wishes if you ever show up? At 85 yo you shouldn't be climbing into traphouses anymore checking holes because if something happens they might only find your corpse come Spring. Think what could happen!

 

Dawg. Do not worry about me Your own mental capacity must be slipping. Confessing to cheating and then blaming other of causing you to do it. THE WINCHESTER 1524 WAS CALLED THE X TRAP. Well now we know not only do lack honor you have no balls. When given the chance to back up your
statement that every one was cheating, you suddenly become tounge tied. I usually have respect for people I am having a discussion with, but you are the exception.
I see nothing in you that demands respect. I think I would rather talk to TJ's toaster. Roger C.

 

What scares me after this thread went down the rabbit hole is that Brad probably has more average books he is going to read.

 

My collection started in 1975. I'd be glad to help. Besides, Brad was never known as a speed reader.

 

Flyers, I've been eyeing 1985. Good reading for anyone that wants a heads up. BUT I never jump in front of a speeding train.

 

Ollie, the deeper you dig this hole the farther away you get from reality. You basically say they can't shoot they get their scores changed they always shot 2 hole targets, and now Brad is not able to read at a speed that you seem to believe he needs to be a productive human being. Could it be that when your I/Q gets to 75 you should sell?

Dave Berlet

 

Dave, you got age and IQ confused as I'm only 73. That said, yes, Brad you and me have been shooting "2-hole" targets for decades. If you want I suggest you encourage our favorite place to shoot (Cardinal Center) to throw a much longer and wider target in hopes of making the money flow back into Trapshooting. Heck, it seems every top shooter squad there wants a reset-even if it hits the bottom of the square. Do really think making the targets harder for this group would make them happy?

 

Dawd,..There you go again, trying to make it all the shooters fault. If you had never set targets out side of the rule book parameters, there never would have been a problem. You can not justify your cheating by trying to indict every one that shot at your club. Did you tell the shooters ahead of time that they were shooting 2 hole targets? Or were you just trying to pump up scores at your club? If they knew then they were cheaters also. But you were the leader, you set the targets.
What do you see when you look in a mirror? Roger C.

 

Dawg, Your job was not to make them happy, yours was to set targets to the rule book, so every shooter shooting registered targets had the same degree of difficulty. what made you think you had the right to lessen that difficulty for your customers? Roger C.

 

Gee Dawg.

Stop with the BS. I already accepted your statements about your club and your members that were all cheating. I believe as you state you set the illegal targets. Tell us your cheating club’s name at least.

You haven’t given us the cheating members names. We can do the rest.

Your cheating club name sir.

 

Why would you care how clubs in PA set their targets? Heck, you never seemed to care how targets were set in your own backyard where plenty of Grand Slams in Handicap were set on real soft targets. Then tell all of us how many clubs invited you into their traphouses to verify the targets were tough enough for you and your crappy scores! Heck, at your age and limited talent I doubt you ever refused a single opportunity to shoot the easiest targets you could find. BTW, I haven't shot at any range here in PA that still uses ancient Western hand loaded traps with holes for years.

 

Dawg….
Please stop w the BS. You cheating club’s name sir.

 

Let's see. Lappawinzo, North End, Ontelaunee, Rural Sportsmens, Strausstown, PSSA, Norry all shot ATA targets pretty much the same. So, if you ever shot any of those clubs you're guilty of cooperating and if you didn't why should you care. Seems to me like you've got some issues that need attention. So, what hole do you put all your PAT or Superstar traps in or you still shooting over antiques with holes?

 

3 hole for Pat trap. 50 yd. targets.

Practice only since the club does not hold registered shoots

 

Dawg, You have kept at it so long now you attempt to tell us about every club in PA. should be on the cheaters list. (KEEP DIGGING) You are right about the issues, we can not stand low down people that skewer the rules of a competitive sport , to gain an advantage. I was right on with your discription., on honor no shame, the shooters that played by the rules are ashamed of you. Roger C.

 

Dawg, Only the shooters that knew the machines were in the 2 hole, and did nothing about were abetting you CHEATERS. ROGER C.

 

Some of us watched the late great Frank Little in a Singles shootoff at PSSA many years ago. Traps started in the two hole, moved to the 3 hole and then the 4 hole and cranked up. Guess who prevailed? Cream rises to the top while lesser specimens inevitably fail. One of the local clubs always set a cranked up wider target and drew 40 plus squads every Thursday. So, with around 200 participants the winner nearly every year was limited to three shooters and I was one of 'em. Average shooters will always be average regardless of holes.

 

Average shooters will always be average regardless of HOLES

With the latest talk about holes I know there are at least 3 of you out there thinking the same thing that I was and are preparing to type it.

Don’t do it!

 

Ollie, may I ask how is the angle setting determined on a super star trap??

Dave Berlet

 

Honestly Dave, I completely forgot but I'm thinking. I haven't set one in over 12 years-maybe longer. OK, I think I remember, there's around 6 holes-#1-#2-#2 #3,#4. and a #5. There were 2 #2 holes I think and our traps were set in one of those #2 holes. We did change them into the 3-hole the year the ATA made in mandatory. Correct me if you think I'm wrong!. Still a great trap and better than that PAT scrap.

 

Meanwhile, back at the first post.

This thread started off like a nice 2 hole target from station 4 then turned into 60 mph screaming 3 hole hard left from station 1.

 

Or you could mean less that a straightaway from post 5. In the big scheme of things it didn't matter if you were good.

 

Dawg…..I asked you which is your club. You know. The one you set cheating targets. Don’t give me a list and say pick. Which is your cheating club?

I don’t need a list of others you think were cheating. You didn’t set their targets. Tell us your cheating club.

 

And you still haven't told me if you ever shot at any of those clubs listed so why should you care. Please inform us if the ATA designated you their official Target Policeman and how many clubs trapshouses you entered to verify the presentations were up to your standards. Listen, I'm smart enough to recognize a straightaway from post 1 or 5. You, obviously-not so much. Show us your badge!

 

Dawg
I trusted you. You have implied you set cheating targets for your club. We are all the police of the sport. I trust you cheated. You said so. Your club is full of cheats. You implied that.

We are the police of the sport.

Your cheating club name please.

 

I might need help from Dave Berlet tomorrow. I’m going out to run my dogs at a hunt club owned by, according to a poster here, a cheating retard. Dave, please stop out tomorrow morning to keep an eye on that dude while I’m working the dogs. I’ll put extra beer in the cooler for ya, thanks!

 

DAWG, WHY SHOULD WE CARE? WE CARE FOR LOVE OF THE SPORT, AND WE DO NOT AWANT PEOPLE DOING THINGS THAT ARE DETRIMENTAL TO THE INTEGRITY OF IT. LIKE CHEATING ON SETTING TARGETS TO MAKE YOUR SELF AND SOME OF YOUR CHEATING BUDDIES LOOK GOOD THE ata IS TO BLAME FOR YOU CHEATING AS MUCH AS YOU ARE. YOU, AND YOU MINIONS STARTED IT, AND THEY DID NOTHING TO STOP YOU CHEATERS.
Roger C.

 

Don i'm wondering about Ollie's diagnosis of Brad's bubble being a little off of plumb and could it be that he got his doctor's degree the same place that Jill Biden got hers?

I can't make it in the morning, but maybe you could slip a couple in the fridge and I could enjoy them next weekend when I will be up there to keep an eye on Brad? Also do you believe that Ollie will ever be able to climb out of that hole that he has so skillfully dug for himself?

Dave Berlet

 

Dave,
We used to have a highly educated fella that would post here from time to time. That guy had an extremely high opinion of his own trapshooting acumen. A real arrogant without cause kinda guy. Just like dawg that guy loved using the wrong hole too. Must be an affliction that comes with the degree.

 

Need a graph

 

Don, If that guy is the one I think you are alluding to, My trap mechanic in the mid west when the ATA said all machines must be certified as to them having interrupters in them. Went to his home club to certify the machines. He called me and said I can not certify these machines, None of the program traps have interrupters in them, also I can see buy the wear pattern on the program traps they only throw #1 hole . Some guy told to just certify them and get the hell out , he got out and did not certify them. I wonder if there was ever a chart made of the problem. Roger C.

 

Oh, oh, another target policeman. I never knew that were that many out there. Still waiting to see their badge and those certified trap tags.

 

Now c'mon Dave-I'm a staunch Republican and get visibly upset when someone refers me as a closet democrat. Well, I did hear a good one at the local gun club today. It seems a shooter named Tom Hefele "deceased" (I'm sure Brad knows him) broke a 99/100 in Singles down in MD years back. Your mutual good friend-Lucky-decided he wanted to move Tom up to Class A from B after he shot and that would have taken him out of the money. They almost came to blows. I can't believe Lucky, being the fine upstanding individual some claim he was would ever do something that underhanded. Tell me it's not so!

 

Ollie when I was shooting back in the good old days it was all over the West that Frank Little was a target claimer, I always answered that I shot with Frank many times and he never did it while I was on his squad. You commenting on what you heard today about Lucky from some club expert carries the same weight with me as those westerners did. Anyone that is shooting at a club that was throwing cheaters' targets and knew it must be a cheater themselves. At least that's what I heard at the club, my hunting club, today.

 

To those of you who claim I'm Sir Winston re-incarnated-I'm not telling. Let's just say only Jesus Christ rose from the dead. I'm not as good with charts and graphs.

 

Well Brad, maybe you should tell us a few more stories that include old Charlie Chip from PA-all 6' 7" of him. I know I can. That said, I'm glad you continue to stick up for Lucky and his stellar reputation. Others may have another opinion. I'm sure you must have shot live birds with Tom on many occasions. I mean he shot over 50,000 all over the world but only won the PA State Championship once at Pikeville. Who might you think is more credible?

 

If you don't do charts and graphs maybe paint by numbers would suit you better?

Dave Berlet