Shotguns are about at the limit of their ability

to break practically all perfectly-pointed targets at the above-sea-level elevations of most clubs in the ATA. This is shown by the huge disparity between scores shot from long-yardage (25, 26, and 27 yards) shot at the Michigan State Shoot in Mason- at about 900 feet - and the recent Utah State Shoot in Vernal, at about mile high.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n1/neilwinston/Plot VERNAL VS MASON FINAL_zpstzfpcezo.gif

Shooters in Michigan just don't have the shotgun performance to reliably break ultra-high handicap scores from far back. no matter what their skill. At Vernal, they do, since guns perform so much better in the thin air of mile-high clubs.

That's why the 30 yard line, (or the 28 or the 29) promoted by some must be tested for fairness by a solid, professionally-designed examination at the Grand in Sparta. We are wasting traps there by having 28-gauge and so forth pointless (but fun, I suppose) "events" which few play and fewer care about.

I assume no one thinks it would be sportmanlike to banish any member to a yardage where the limiting factor is the equipment, not the skill of the shooter. So let's see at how it works before walking blindly into a potentially unfair set of rules.

Yours in Sport,

N1H1

 

Unless you use the same shooters at both locations and shoot multiple round this tells you nothing.

 

No one is ever banished anywhere. If you can't break winning scores take the reduction. That's how the system is supposed to work and does for everyone not on the 27. If Deb Ohye can break a 100 from the 27 with 1oz. loads and the most recent Handicap event in PA was won with a 99 from the fence the point is moot.

I'll tend to believe a well known All-American Phil Kiner when he says we need more yardage-not a chart and graph!

 

We absolutely need several more factors here to prove or dis-approve, they are
Wind speeds during the shoot?

Rain, was there any rain during the shoot?

What was the humidity?

What were the target speeds?

What were the angles settings?

What were the shooters handicap averages?

This is the type of data needed to make a fair assessment, Data, Data, Data N1H1 not your hap hazard figures.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Flor 1, do you really think that it's just that western long-yardage handicap shooters are about four or five times better than their Eastern compatriots?

I do agree that a definitive test of the 29 or 30 yard lines would involve the same shooters at the same venue, shooting from the two yardages. That's why I have been advocating such a test for long at the Grand. As time passes, as get experience with scientific testing, we could transition to tests of shower shells, lighter payloads, whatever else might interest us.

N1H1

 

The Michigan data covers two years and, generally, twice as many shooters as competed in high-altitude Vernal. In eight events there must have been some with similar conditions. Yet the scores from Utah simply buried those from Michigan in every single comparison. Liz's post promised fine weather for the Michigan State shoot and no one has posted anything like what came from Ohio and now Indiana.

Humidity has a tiny effect on air density compared to altitude. Here's a question for Gary and others here: What is the effect of humidity on air density and why? Please be specific and supply numbers, if possible.

I think we can assume that the angles and target speeds were the same unless you have counter evidence.

While I have no data on this with me, I assume the handicap averages of the western long-yardage shooters were, for the most part, higher than those who shot out East. But that's just because where they shoot their guns perform so much better.

N1H1

 

N1H1, Neil, human error is totally dismissed in your thought process for proving your point. I must agree with you on the differences between higher altitude shooting and shooting along an ocean front gun club. I have done both. I know those differences and Jimmy Heller and I had a conversation several years back concerning that difference.

Why not take the human error part of the equation totally away and shoot stationary targets spinning at 2200 RPMs at agreed upon distances at both high and low altitudes? After all, a spinning target or the shotgun shouldn't perform any differently under those settings, should it? That is; if it's the gospel truth we're after to actually know the exact distance the shotgun with todays legal trap loads run out of choke and ability. Not the shooters ability to point accurately regardless of his known abilities?

Who would play? Would you place any wagers on the outcome? OR, anyone else for that matter. After all, it's merely a new type of testing a shotgun and not a shooters ability to point it accurately, time after time.

HAP

 

First thing is to do the test at the 27 yard line on a competitive target, before we ask gun clubs to pour 3 yards of concrete. Target speed 44mph.

GB DLS

 

N1H1,

Not sure that totally agree with you. Sure, based on the examples you show there is a huge difference.

However, I looked at the NE and KY shoots also. The results are a lot closer. Since you focused on elevation- NE 1924, KY 1024.

NE, 541 25-27 shooters over 4 events. 46 scores 96+( 9% of all 25-27 scores )

KY, 460 25-27 shooters over 5 events. 47 scores 96+(10%)

UT, 431 25-27 shooters over 4 events. 54 scores 96+(12.5)

Scores 100-98. NE 16, KY 10, UT 11

NE had the most 96+ in any one event with 108 25-27 shooters with 24 +96 scores (22%).

It seems to me that the past two years at Mason were unusually low and not necessarily representative of all lower altitude venues.

 

I agree that the Western States at the same elevation as Eastern States will have higher Hdcp
scores, the Targets are Drier as there is less Rain for humidity, this can be tested on a weight drop system on Targets stored in respective Humidity Enviroment. Comparasion will show the drier Western Targets Will break easier.

I do not need to be an Einstein on this.

Airplanes need more runway for take-offs and Landings out west. Ask any Commercial Pilot.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

My Trapgun must have better target breaking ability at greater distances than yours N1H1
Beyond the 30 yard line, Maybe it is the Indian!!!!!

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

"sportmanlike to banish any member to a yardage where the limiting factor is the equipment" .....

A 'short-yardage schmuck' can hit a target, dust fly, no visible piece, lost target that was "perfectly pointed" ... that may have cost them the shoot and money. For them it is "tough luck", "don't like it stay home", "get better and try again", and all the 'other' crap they get told.

But .... A 'Trap-God' .... MAY get moved to the 28,29, or 30 and this happen, it now may be "robbery" ...

The ATA wants everyone's money .... but their actions say they are only interested in representing the few.

 

The largest effect of "high-altitude" is the view from a "high-horse" .....

 

Neil,

Can I get your input please? What do you think about the article in the current Trapshooting USA, where it addressed the "increase the angles" debate.

The author said a better way to make the game more challenging as it was before would be to lower the height of the targets back to where they used to be in order to present less target "area" to the shooter.

The current measurement rule is recommended 9-1/2 feet of a window area limit. Before the recommended height measurement was 8-1/2 feet (from the house).

Also it was suggested putting down the radar gun and cranking up the spring so that the bird reaches the 50 yard stake.

 

Physically, this is inaccurate. Every pitch target conforming to specifications will be broken by lead shot moving 1145 fps.

 

The purpose of increased yardage is to increase the probability of a lost target for ANY reason ..... Handicap .....

EACH high score is a combination of random results .....STOP with the Kool Aid trying to PROVE there is a science to it ....

Luck, chance, ability, and equipment that produces RANDOM results ... does not flow well on a chart ....

 

There are targets lost everyday as a result of THAT shell, working with THAT choke, producing THAT pattern ... shot at THAT target, that may be harder, thicker, smaller, or whatever ... in THAT fight path ... that a shooter from ANY yardage can not break pointing it "perfectly" ...

You seem to only care if it happens to a Trap God shooting from a distance greater than 27-yards from the launch point.

 

COAZTRAP, Who is the author of the article you are referring to?

 

The possible variables could be never ending down to what the shooter did the day before, ate the day before, how much sleep the day before or last week for that matter ... I used to have people tell me to take an aspirin 1 hour before shooting, supposed to calm you down, but I had not shot yet so I wasn't excited yet any way ... I know it sounds crazy but I usually shot better on days when I didn't feel like shooting in the first place ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

What happened to the Kool Aid crap that the "best shooter will ALWAYS win" ....

Now .... to prove a mythical point .... you say ALWAYS is not ALWAYS .... there are conditions that being the "best shooter" will not be enough .... like too much yardage, or too little .... like target-gate and someone being smoked by an 18-yard shooter ....

So .... the best shooter will ALWAYS win with easy or hard targets .... but not from any yardage .... seems you have different opinions .....

 

But the one given we have is that lead moving at 1145 fps will destroy every properly constructed pitch target.

 

Sean Hawley in the July August 2015 edition. He had some comments from some other notables.

Biggest thing that stuck out for me was with the lower height setting, we shoot at the rim, the thickest part of the target, where as with the higher height setting we are shooting at the dome, it's thinnest part. .


I got the impression from the article, the difference of 7 degrees in angle setting was not that critical for most shooters and reverting to the lower height setting and less dependence on the radar guns might be the easiest fix to the "handicap problem" instead of adding more concrete.

 

There could be many beneficial "fixes" that would help our game of handicap enormously! In order for that to happen, one small change almost always lead to another to fix that one change in addition. Just the reverse of how our rule book became twice as thick as it was in 1979?

Our doubles game could be vastly improved also with a couple minor changes so that the average doubles shooter would have the ability to break a better score. No matter how clays are set for doubles, the top shooters will break their share and then some. To make the game better is how we'd attract more of the average shooters partake of our doubles game. The better club operators already do this and it shows up in participation of more of the average shooters at those clubs to.

"less dependence on the radar guns might be the easiest fix to the "handicap problem" instead of adding more concrete."

The radar guns isn't the problem, it's the speed limits that hinders good quality targets, especially on breezy days. Radar the targets from the 16 yard line instead of directly off the throwing arm makes a huge difference in the quality thrown for more stabilization and more distance.

I've always asked why our old rule of 8 to 12 foot with a recommended set at 9-1/2 feet was changed to 8 to 10 feet with the same 9-1/2 foot recommendation? I've never gotten an honest response or a direct answer from any having a role in changing that rule.

HAP

 

No thoughts on post number 8 above?

HAP

 

This topic is really out of my expertise .

HOWEVER~~
Way back when I was a pup I worked in a bake shop in Ohio then one near Colorado Springs.
Right off the bat, I had one hell of a time making getting cakes to rise properly. I had to seek
expert help.

Any similarities to the to the original posters statement and the following responses plus mine,
would be purely coincidental

Eddie

 

What did you do to get them Cakes to rise?

GB DLS

 

"I assume no one thinks it would be sportmanlike" .... for D-class shooters to get pounded with A, AA, and AAA scores .... year after year .... and this happens NOW ....

But .... someone gets their panties in a twist, if there is just talk of the Idols having more of a challenge.

 

Doc Longshot

At higher altitudes decrease the amount of baking powder/yeast slightly, on the cakes and items such as hot cross buns ETC.

Eddie

 

Is it the guns that have reached their limit or is it possibly the shells ..? Why would it not be logical that a shotgun shell would be considerably less effective at some point rather than blame it on the gun ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT: My guns limit is 135.5 Yards with my shells using Hard 6s, they are 97% patterns using my Kick's Smoke .690 Smoke chokes, tighter the pattern the better. It's like using Viagra mixed in w/my powder, you ought to try them , I had abox of them tested in Kansas from the parking lot, using RIO Hulls. Shoot a STIFF ONE.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Thanks, I liked that, good info

GB DLS

 

Neil.... After viewing this video, I came to the conclusion that we haven't even approached the limits of a shotgun when shooting trap..... Just sayin', ya know????

https://video.search.yahoo.com/vide...ge=1317915845&fr2=p:s,v:v&fr=yfp-t-304-s&tt=b

 

Wow, thanks for posting that Dan ....Amazeing ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

What would a new chart and graph have to say about that one?

 

I'm fairly certain that N1H1 will come along and totally prove that what George did is impossible with graphs, equations, etc..... One video is worth 10,000 of N1H1's words....

 

Dan, on his own thread, which you posted the video on too, didn't you, and if you how could you not know how I would respond and know that your prediction, "N1H1 will come along and totally prove that what George did is impossible with graphs, equations, etc." is total BS. Please, don't put YOU words into my mouthsince you seem to have no talent at all for prediction what I will say; I'll speak for myself.

Dr. Longshot wrote: "On that Video Mr. Digweed never missed. He was shooting 1 1/4 oz #5s Black Cloud Shells."

and my response was

"He did not miss on the video. I do not believe the narrator ever said we saw all the shots,, nor that "he did not miss." He described not moving back until he had broken a clay at the present yardage. His challenge was to break a lot of them. A long-yardage trapshooter's challenge is to break all of them. George is clearly a fine fellow as well as the best shotgunner in the world, and the audience clearly was behind him. I was particularly glad to hear him account for part of his success as being due to the "hot, warm day" leading to ideal conditions."
I do believe, however, he was shooting UK's Gamebore "Black Gold" shells, not our "Black Cloud" brand.

N1H1"

 

Figure out where the Bunker target is broken with the second barrel. Up to 60 yards sounds about right. Remember, it goes 82 yards, and is thicker than the target thrown at an ATA shoot.

We use a little less than 7/8 oz of shot. Forget the first barrel, it missed the target, the first 24 grams is a moot point.

One can consistently break the Bunker target with the second barrel. An ATA shooter may disagree, but a Bunker shooter knows this as a fact.

Our guns are not at the edge of the ATA envelope with good trap loads shot through good bores and good chokes.

Sounds like Digweed was using Kentucky Nines (Fives and Fours).

30 yard line, wider angles, faster targets? I'll leave that for the Peanut Gallery to argue about.

 

I would add to my comment from my post above that I WILL continue to occasionally shoot Registered Trap regardless of what the headknockers at ATA do to change targets, or not.

I often work the local trapshoots, and have a policy of not shooting when I work an event.

When I do shoot Trap, it is to fellowship with my friends and fellow shooters. Same with the other disciplines.

I am really slipping (back) into a dark side of shooting. NRA High Power and Service Rifle Match. The folks over there are not as social as the shotgun folks. OCD is mandatory at the loading bench.

 

Could we all just agree to let N1H1 shoot much closer while we enjoy a more sporting game of trapshooting?

 

Neil, I remember reading that dry air is denser than moist air. I don't know exactly why. But, what to me is a better question, because I set targets at one of the clubs I work at, what, if any, is the affect of humidity on target flight? I have set targets, set at 39.7 mph measured with a radar gun, that flew 51 yards, measured. The next day the same 39.7 mph threw the targets only 49 yards, or a little less, measured. The temperature was approximately the same. Why the difference? Back to work, now.

 

Martin
I don't have an answer for you but I don't think it takes much wind to affect the targets.
This is one of the reasons I like the targets set by speed

I don't care how far they fly.
If the are between 42 and 43 mph set by a radar gun and 8 & 10 Ft high, 10 yards from the house,
I feel I have an excellent chance to break that target in the next 6 to 10 yards.

 

Many moons ago I was shooting at the Golden West Grand I was talking to Kay O, he said when he goes from the east coast to there he can pick up about 3 more hits due to the thin air.

 

Both the shot charge and the clay target reacts somewhat different in high density air and high humidity laden air. If you think there's no difference, good luck on making the shoot-offs at both of these different scenarios for trap shooting. Slight breezes also play a part on the shooters perception of how the target are behaving in both instances!

HAP