The ATA is Lost

This absolute disaster of the uncertain status of the Grand homegrounds at Sparta has the ATA looking utterly incompetent.

I just read some comments made by Lynne Gipson, Executive Director of the ATA, to an Illinois newspaper, "The Southern."

Since I have no idea what gets my posts frequently deleted on this forum, I'll paraphrase Mr. Gipson's comments to head off any (wrong) copyright objection.

Mr. Gipson says that the ATA is in limbo. He says that the shuttering of the WSRC is just political posturing. He doesn't notice the significance of the 10 year lease ending this year. He's advising the ATA to wait and see what happens with state funding. He says the ATA isn't that worried. He says the ATA doesn't have any specific alternate plans. He says the ATA doesn't want to have the Grand anywhere but Sparta. He says that if the WSRC is closed, the ATA will be forced to look at something else and that a Grand at another field would be a, and I have to quote this, "diminished event."

This is stunning incompetence to have, let alone place in the public record. These are not the words of a capable leader or the actions of a competent organization. The ATA is suffering a national embarrassment of taking a course so many of its base said was wrong, and that base has been proven correct in a very glaring "told ya' so" moment. It rarely is so clear to see a "I'm right, and you're wrong" outcome, but that's exactly where the ATA finds itself, with seemingly no firm hand on the rudder and plan for the future.

The ATA is in deep trouble, right now. Their house is on fire, and everyone, from current members, to prospective members, to the industry, to the sports world is watching to see what they will do. The ATA needs much better leadership and direction than the vague statements and optimistic inaction which they are publishing and deploying.

I could lead the ATA out of this absolute debacle that all intelligent people saw coming, but I'm through giving free advice to that organization. If they want some crisis leadership during this fire, and if they want strategic restructuring for market repositioning, I'm sure they know how to find me.

 

Why w

Why would you care? You're a non-shooter anyway. If you can't afford a box of shells you're not a success story capable of running anything-especially anything related to Trapshooting!

 

Unless the original contract language has changed (and I don't believe it has with its renewal) both the ATA and IDNR are required to give a one year advance notice of their intent to dissolve the agreement. The real worry will be if and when the ATA receives that notice. Remember, both organizations greatly need each other, however, the financial state of affairs in Illinois has been an issue since the decision to relocate the ATA to Sparta and has now risen to a major dispute in the State's legislature.

On June 13, 2015 the ATA sent a letter to all State and Provincial Secretaries and Delegates advising them of the threatened closure of the World Shooting and Recreational Complex. Here is part of the letter from Executive Director Lynn Gipson:

"The Governor has stated that one of the cuts COULD be the state’s operation of
the World Shooting Complex, effective September 1. We have been assured by IDNR
representatives and representatives of the Governor’s office that both sides are still working
to find common ground, and hopefully a compromise can be reached to avoid even a
temporary suspension of operation of the Complex."

While I've been very vocal of several shortcomings of the Executive Committee over the past few years, I do believe they are in the process of making emergency preparations in identifying shooting facilities willing to host a telephonic Grand American tournament in 2016 if it becomes necessary. I have no proof of this but I have been made aware of requested meetings in which I assume (and hope) are for this purpose. In my view this should have been in place already years ago.

Whether the Illinois Governor is posturing or not, the many news reports should cause great concern to ATA members. Closure of the WSRC has been demanded by groups for several years and the debate over its future by political opponents coupled by the fact that its annual loses increase the debt to Illinois is very troublesome.

In a proactive approach to this potential problem, it would have been appropriate for the ATA to apprise the membership about the issue and assure them that they have made or are in the process of making preparations to assure that future Grand American Handicaps will continue to be held regardless of the situation in Illinois. That's communication, something the ATA must get better at.

 

Remember what the first "A" in ATA stands for~~~~~~~~"AMATEURS"~~~~~~~~~

 

A "telephonic Grand" would be the very definition of failure. If they are thinking along those lines, my above alarm point is redoubled.

 

smoking357,

I don't think there are many in favor of a telephonic GAH but sometimes you do what you have to do to keep the tradition of the tournament going. If memory serves me correctly, there have been cases during previous Grand Americans when events could not be completed and those who did not finished the event and those who did not even get to the shooting line were afforded to compete the next day, sometimes in beautiful weather.

While not ideal, I would support a telephonic GAH over no GAH at all, and I think many shooters would still compete for the championships and perhaps many more than at present.

There may never be a need for a so-called "Plan B," but that does not excuse our leadership from making advance preparations. And I don't look at telephonic shoots as being a sign of failure. Telegraphic shoots have been around at least back to January 1886 and at one time were thought to be "one of the finest-conceived, and most far-reaching, plans for the development of trap shooting yet brought forward."

Again, I could be totally off base with my assumption that the ATA is contemplating a telephonic a Grand American Handicap, but I surely hope they are putting together a "Plan B" whatever it may be.

 

I sur hope that if they have a telephonic GAH i get to go to where the weather is 75 degrees no wind and sunshine and all the what i call PRO shooters have to shoot in 40 mph winds and rain !!!!!!!!! I would still probably break a 90 but i would feel like i had a chance and if any male under the age of 70 shoot closer than the 20 yard line and breaks a 100 we will lynch him from the highest tree in Sparta even though its closed .

 

Mr. Gipson stated the Grand would be diminished if it had to be held elsewhere. The Grand was diminished when it moved to Sparta too!...Bill

 

It was diminished almost every year in Illinois and under Gipson's watch.

 

In 2006 as Sparta was scheduled to open, Blagojevich whom the ATA courted, delivered an address to his legislature to ban semi auto guns in the state of Illinois.

Our leaders should have to pay the relocation costs and to help recover the initial investment made with the anti gun crowd.

 

Even if the complex is shuttered, it may well only be temporary. Every once in a while, they shut down the Fed Gov, but it always comes back on line. I will resist an inappropriate comment about that.

We should hope that things turn out well. I, for one, fervently hope this is resolved.

 

bill1949,

I think it is more likely that the Grand American will continue to be held in Sparta. However, if the Grand becomes a telephonic tournament in 2016, I'll go out on a limb and make the prediction that the attendance will increase.

 

HB

What is telephonic?

 

There is absolutely no need to hold a telephonic tournament in 2016, especially with so much lead time.

A telephonic tournament would be an embarrassment.

Further, a telephonic tournament would be redundant. Simply throw the top 3% of scores from the biggest events around the country (satellite Grands, state championships) onto Excel, and there's your 2016 Telephonic Grand.

 

I would disagree 357. It needs to be a separate event.
However, many of the top guns will be selective of where they shoot it. That is the problem.
Money and the ring at stake.

 

I agree with you. That's why I say a telephonic event would be an embarrassment.

 

Telephonic....ah yes. We could have 2 places in the west and 2 in the east. And keeping in tradition those further west can shoot the 1 hole targets set with a weak radar gun and those in the east can be set with the bar and 50 yard targets.

What could go wrong?

It would be the grandest time!

 

Good to see you haven't lost your sense of humor.

 

Simple hold a East andWest Grand and put the scores together .
You can shoot both but the first one you shoot is your score.

 

I am afraid the ATA is going to realize they do not have the bargaining power they thought they had before everything is all over ... They are not in a position to make demands and state rediculous expectations on any place that might possibly get in the mix as possible places to host the Grand if in fact the State of Illinois does close the WSRC ... The best anyone can hope for is a continuation of the WSRC hosting the shoot until another place can be located and a deal struck ... Time will tell, sad but don't think many people are surprised ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

You're exactly right, but given the ATA's statements, it seems they're hoping for Sparta to remain the home forever. Remember, the ATA relocated to Illinois and reincorporated as a public charity.

Here's the ATA's 2013 State of Illinois public charity filing. Gipson gets a $116,000 salary.

http://ag.state.il.us/PDF_IMAGES/Indexes20140910/01051666-2013.pdf

 

Even if they leave it open funding will be cut !!!!! Has anyone else who has attened every year noticed that the facility is NOT being maintained at all last year was the worst grass was not mowed doors on the trap houses where rotting and falling off,roads are in need of repair multiple other maintenance items are being ignored . This will get worse !!!!!!!!

 

Who in their right mind wouldn't be "hoping for Sparta to remain the home forever" ... if ... they were making "a $116,000 salary", and their 'wife's' business was located there.

And as far as 'maintaining' things .... if .... there are non-ATA shoots there during the summer .... are they using the ATA's traps, voice-calls, and related 'equipment' ???? if so, who gets paid for this and does the "maintenance" and replacement of them ????

 

Good question. The ATA would be remiss in not insisting on a lease payment to the Complex, unless the ATA doesn't own the traps.

 

The ATA is going to have a very difficult go of it if it looks for a new taxpayer-funded facility.

http://www.northcountynews.org/budget-cuts-call-for-closure-of-wsrc/

According to this story, the WSRC loses 1.2 million, a year.

According to the Illinois Policy Institute, Sparta sales tax revenues have declined since the opening of the WSRC.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/repo...sparta-world-shooting-and-recreation-complex/

 

I don't see how that can be the case. I seriously doubt the ATA shoots and the other venues bring in $50,000,000 as advertised, but there has to be an upside in tax base for Sparta from the WRSC. $1,300,000 a year in expenses generates some labor and purchases.

 

What a Schmuck!

 

You can call me anything you like but I'm smart enough to recognize a keyboard warrior who doesn't even shoot trap because he stated shells cost too much so he quit years ago. I guess that leaves you either out or something far worse!

 

True Story: Several years ago, the PITA had some negotiating problems with the club that usually hosted the PITA Grand Pacific at that time. Unable to come to any resolution to the contract, the PITA decided to split the Grand Pacific between two clubs, Medford Gun Club in southern Oregon, and the Hillsboro Gun Club, in northern Oregon which would allow the Canadian shooters a closer club to shoot the Grand. It was a telephonic shoot. Shooters could choose the club they wanted to shoot and the scores would be called in to Medford, where everything was being handled. Now, these two clubs are as different to shoot as night and day. Long story short, over 90% of the winning Grand scores came from the Medford Gun Club, due soley to the shooting conditions at the time. The Medford club had perfect shooting weather, while the Hillsboro club fought clouds and wind for the entire week of the Grand..... When shooting the Grand, it is imperative that ALL shooters shoot the same club, the same targets, under the same conditions to determine the best of the best... Did this split work? As I recall, attendance was down considerably, and the resulting uproar this split Grand caused was not good.... I attended this Grand, and based on my experience, I would never shoot another telephonic Grand. As mentioned above, it just diminishes the whole concept of what the Grand represents and what it means to the membership.... Just my opinion...

 

Telephonic Grand would and could only be a disaster, not only for the shooters but for the ATA also ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

While that is true you can not say this ship started to sink with Gipson. He was handed the wheel on a sinking ship.

 

It has deminished every year even under Gipson's watch ... I do not think anyone can point the finger at Lynn Gipson and say anything is his fault because its only been a continuation of the years before him, back to and including Vandalia ... The ATA figured they were not going to be able to handle the amount of shooters expected to attend and after the 100th Grand, they set limitations that came back and bit them (BIG TIME) ... People did not take the chance of going there and taking a chance of being turned away ... That was a big OPPS by the ATA that drove shooters away, nothing they have done since has reversed that based on the actual numbers of attendees since ... The Generousity of the Martins didn't do it and they invested over a 1/2 million dollars (USD) in their attemps ... Hind sight is always 20/20, bet the ATA wishes they could do that all over again ... The ATA has lost the support of many of its members by making bad business desisions as well as try to force feed the move to many dedicated shooters so they are now being retaliated against by those shooters not showing their support by attending the Grand any longer ... Its a hard pill to swallow but thats just the way it goes ... If anyone would be to blame it would revert back to the ATA (EC and BOD) itself once again ... Non business men cannot operate a business, like a business and make it pay off ... If you need proof of that look at the situation the ATA is now in and where it might or might not be going in the future ... The State of Illinois has nothing to do with it, the ATA brought it on itself ... Making moves in "desparation" will usually end up being a big mistake more times than not ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

To say what happened BEFORE you is not 'your fault' can be true ....

To say you have no 'blame' in NOT being able to stop the decline may not be true ....

If .... someone employs you, it come with the expectation of improved performance, unless your employer is the ATA.

It becomes "his fault" within a short time without any current improvement, and not much hope of future improvement.

 

Agree with you 100% , up to where it becomes his fault without any current improvement and or future improvements ... The ATA has established the limitations set forth so he is nothing more than a Puppet collecting a big pay check (almost $116,000) ... I don't fault him for being the figure head so to speak with all of the micro management going on ... The truth of the matter is they should all be gone and start over fresh, with some people who have the same values as the founding fathers had many years ago ... Martins money could not turn the thing around, putting a figure head in there isn't going to do anything but be an added expense to the ATA cash cow ... Thats just another slap in the face to the members ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


"If .... someone employs you, it come with the expectation of improved performance, unless your employer is the ATA." (User1 stated)

Can't say it much better than that ...

 

If the previous, and or current EC and majority of the BOD performed for a Company and or Corporation like they do on behalf of the Membership of the ATA they would of been escorted out the door in less than a week ... The current problems started more than 10 years ago with the EC and BOD members from there and not much has changed ... Not sure how the BOD would gather the votes to get things done against the EC today, that depends on the members of the BOD ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I can ONLY speak for me .... but .... " (almost $116,000)" would not 'buy me' to the point of appearing that 'I' was NOT acting in the best interest of the membership who employed me.

If .... you sell yourself to be a "figure head" .... you deserve more than the cyber-land lashings that come your way.

The FACT that you sold yourself leaves the 'ATA crutch' out of play ... you own it. How long would anyone work for any price, if your 'job' was to be the "figure head" for people to 'blame' ????? Unless there is 'more to the story'. A "Puppet collecting a big pay check" ... or one of the gang 'chin-deep' in draining the bank account ...

 

More like him and his pals are the crew that may have sunk the ship.

Himark....I notice again that you have problems pointing to that 2003 mark on the graph where the ATA announced the move to Sparta. You also have problems mentioning the fact that Vandalia and the ATA was boycotted heavily by many in the surrounding states the last few years.

Your graph is worthless without that 2003 mark there. Makes me wonder if NW authored the graph.

You could ask Gipson what he thinks about that decision. He and his wife make a large sum of money around that facility.

 

Family Guy, This is the first I'ver ever heard that the Vandalia Grand and the ATA was heavily boycotted. More info please.

 

Looks like 2012 Grand is at the 1946 level according to Graph
GB DLS

 

Fresh article about the ATA and Sparta. Lots of quotes from Gipson. He really seems deflated and disappointed.

http://www.randolphcountyheraldtribune.com/article/20150704/NEWS/150709798

This book might be already be closed. It would explain the increase in folks coming here to sniff around our discussions.

 

The book is far from closed.
Lynn definitely sounds disappointed, as someone who enjoys his time in Sparta I know I am as well.
But we are good for 2015.
It still looks like posturing and who knows what the future will bring.

Thanks for posting the link

 

Good article, .... Sounds like Gipson is try to make a case, don't think the Politico's care about the ATA, Gipson, or any of the other BS they can come up with ... Its best to let it die and fade away ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Nothing new in the article from the government side. It was good to have the ATA side of the story told.

I don't know if it will help or not.

 

The Illinois Policy folks already shattered Gipson's case by showing that Sparta sales taxes actually declined following the arrival of the Complex. Even if the ATA is good for the Complex, the Complex might not be good for the State. The ATA made a mistake of hitching their wagon to a state park, instead of exploring better means of securing capital assets.

 

Does "We told you this would happen" resonate with any of you that thought Sparta was the cure-all for the future Grand location? This scenario has been on the horizon since the day the complex opened. The handwriting was on the wall then, and the handwriting is on the wall now, however, this time IN BOLD CAPITAL LETTERS....

 

I was just rereading parts of two ATA books, The Grand American, The Home Grounds. In the books was information on how the EC was planning in the 90's on how to move the Grand. They even went so far as to hire Authur Anderson to do a study. When it was completed, it was shelved and not looked at. (I would like to get a look at it.) That seems to be when the EC first stuck it's head in the sand and did not believe that the airport would make them leave. It seems that the head in the sand mentality is back. If the EC thinks that the state of Ill. won't throw us out, they better think again. It seems that the EC does not learn from their mistakes. Someone once said that the definition of insanity is doing the samething again and expecting a different outcome. Welcome to the world of the ATA.

 

It still surprises me how the guys who never went to a Grand or don't even register targets get so twisted over this.
The lifers maybe, but those who haven't paid a membership in years? Seriously LOL

 

Perhaps, just perhaps, some of us that were ATA members in good standing, got a butt full of the ATA, the EC the BOD and their actions years ago. I, for one, sat on the fence for some time before slipping over to the "dark side". The Robert Glass/Frank Rively debacle put the nail in the coffin for me. But, all that aside, Wishbone, does one have to be a current member of the ATA, or attend the Grand, to fully understand what the organization is doing to its members on a regular basis? Any trap shooter with any common sense at all can easily see where the ATA is leading their membership. Why can't you? Tell us, if you can, what makes you want to defend the ATA. Can you name anything good the ATA has done to promote our sport in the past, say, 10 years? We, on the other hand, can give you a sh**load of things they have totally screwed up.

You can sugar coat it however you want to make it good for you because that's how you want it to be. I "get so twisted" over this issue because I was once a staunch believer and supporter of the ATA in the earlier years, and now I get to see all the good things the ATA once stood for, and all the hard work others in the past did for trap shooting, get washed down the toilet due to the ineptness of the current leadership......

At this point, nothing you can say is going to change my mind, just as nothing I can offer is going to change yours, so lets just see where the future of the ATA goes from here..... I'm betting the farm it's not going to get better.....

 

Those of us that have leases for campsites at Sparta, this is our last year of our initial ten years. We were asked to renew and have our money in by August but now I see the ATA has moved the date back to September which tells me they are aware of the looming problem. I also have been told that if the agreement does in fact get another year and the loss continues that will be the end. My friend in Chicago who seems to have been right so far says the odds of a 2016 Grand in Sparta are very doubtful unless a new agreement is reached assuring the state they will not face any more monetary losses.

 

Will the last person to exit the ATA please turn off the lights.

When history buff records the demise of the ATA who will get the a honors title of destroying our sport? I hope it is the same person that got the eight traps and any other renumerations that were obtained.

That may be enough names to make a complete paragraph.

On a brighter side I firmly believe that the sport will be savby either a benivelint club, or a whole new management team, either under the old corp. or under a new organization.

Maybe if the members rose up as a whole and demanded that those in charge listen to the members or resign. We could elect or hire some people to manage the business as a business, not as a good ole boys club. It is a shame what has happened to an organization that has survived for so long, It is a good axample of mismanagement in action. Roger Coveleskie

 

OK, Roger and all the rest of you guys, we've been wrong. Barry Roach posted the letter from Lynn Gipson and all is well. The rumors are all false and the state and ATA are working on a new plan that's been in the works for sometime. Boy, I feel ashamed I let common sense get the best of me as I thought there was really a problem and things were looking bad for the future. Well crap I guess we were all wrong so I guess we need to apologize to someone. Would it be the guy who negotiated the lease for the HOF, the EC for keeping us in the dark so we wouldn't get ahead of ourselves or maybe the State of Illinois for not wanting to lose more money. I'm perplexed I don't know what to do or think.

 

I believe the state sales tax is 6.25% in Ill. That means on a $12,000,000.00 economic impact will generate only $750,000.00 in sales tax revenue. That is not enough to pay off a 50 million dollar bond issue and that is not counting the cost of issuance and interest on the bond issue over a 20, 25 or even a 30 year time frame. Sparta is a black hole for the Illinois taxpayer and the Ill. government may be coming to that very conclusion. I cannot see how given their budget problems that they can afford to keep it open when the cost of the bond issue cannot even be covered.

 

While it appears costly to keep the State Park and the Sparta complex open the true cost of the ATA part of the Sparta complex is not the 1.9 million as reported, but in all honesty I don't know what the true cost to operate and maintain the part of the State Park that is used by the ATA for shooting competition purposes.

Based on history no State Park in Illinois turns a profit on their operation, so why would anyone expect Sparta to be an exception.

Just so no one gets the wrong impression I think the move by the ATA to Sparta for the Grand was a huge mistake, we are told that their was little to no options on where to move the Grand but I think that there was little to no due diligence by the ATA EC prior to 2005.

If Sparta was forced to close it would be disasterous for the ATA but on the other hand if Sparta is not closed by the State of Illinois will the decline of ATA membership and attendance at Sparta increase as the trend indicates or can the ATA come up with some magic bullet to turn this trend around. I don't have an answer do you? Only time will tell.

 

A 12,000,000 dollar economic impact does a lot more than produce a one time 750,000 dollar sales taxes. The money rents rooms, cars, meals, buys, gas, food and many other then things AND pays wages of the locals who work there, who then pay income tax. Those locals then buy food, fuel, shelter and luxuries. This is the dreaded "trickle down" effect.

Money changes hands many many times and the government taxes that money each and every time it changes hands.

 

Is rarely 12 million when offered by someone benefiting from public spending. If the ATA can produce a verified audit, it can put the 12 million figure into play.

 

The thing is its losing 1.8 million dollars per year just in operating costs and is in need of maintance and upgrades as reported. So how are those expenses paid for,the tax payer. Where does the money come from to pay off the bonds issued to build. Sparta will either be shutdown or sold simply because it can't even break even on M&O costs. God help the ATA if it trys to buy this pig in a poke.

 

The ATA can't just buy the Complex. Illinois has to put the land up for competitive bid.

 

It appears that we all have ideas, dreams, hopes, speculations etc. on what should/could happen, but we will all have to wait and see after the September date given by the State. In the meantime everyone should voice their thougths and just maybe we will come up with some ideas that will work for the ATA and all of us.

 

It's hard but I am still sitting on my hands, waiting to see how this gets settled.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshor

 

Stephens said the local group wanted to meet with IDNR director Wayne Rosenthal to discuss keeping the shooting complex operation and getting it to prosper.

"I received a letter from Representative Costello about this," said Stephens.

He said the letter stated that Rosenthal was advised by the governor's office not to meet with the Randolph County group. Stephens said he did not understand what good it would do the governor to not allow Rosenthal to meet with local people.

The IDNR website quotes Rosenthal as stating the he want to improve customer service and communication with IDNR constituents and promote state parks to attract more visitors.

Sheryl Blum, representing the chamber of commerce, noted the SCTP Nationals brought in about 5,000 people. The AIM shoot and the Grand all start the beginning of August.

She asked if the city and the chamber could work together to put up welcome signs for the big shoots.


I do not think that the facility is the problem, the lacking of infrastucture is and has been since it opened ... They want to get it to prosper which is what they have been trying to do for the past 10 years, so what's new about that ..? How do they propose to attract more visitors when they have to drive country miles to see and take in the facility and what would be the newest, latest, greatest attractions ..? The "WELCOME SIGNS" would of been a nice gesture and would of had more impact if they had been there from DAY ONE ... I recall seeing them back in Vandalia, thought it was a great idea from the very first time I saw them ... Personally, I hope the State manages to keep the WSRC operational so they continue to take the ecnomic hit rather close it and let it waste away to nothing as the State has done on many other occasions ... That way they can honor the agreement with the ATA and all those who attend will be happy ... Raise the prices, make it $10.00/$15.00 rather than $3.00 per event, thats cheap rent for a multi million dollar facility of that caliber (so, I have been told)... Then all of the real ATA shooters will be the only ones who attend, lots less wear and tear on the place so maintainance will be less also ... Save a buck here and a buck there and you'd be amazed at what you can do ... Make the shooters keep score, load the targets, and help with the weeds as they stand around doing nothing while waiting their turn ... Oh, It can be done, you just have to use your imagination and want it bad enough otherwise say Good Night Alice and move on ... They could have a BOD day where all of the BOD comes out and scores, load houses, and pull weeds ... Then an EC day so the EC can show everyone how much they support the members as they score, load, and pull weeds also ... Then how about a combo day where the EC and BOD do their part by scoring, loading, and pulling weeds ... There alone you got 3 days already covered and thats with very little thought given to how to make it work ... Sponsor Sparta Days and have local residents come out and score, load, and pull weeds ... There is another day I came up with while typing for (4) , hell there is no end to how to do it, just a lack of desire and imagination from what I can see ... In the mean time Pray and hope the Hell none of them read this or there will be a bunch of PO'ed people out there ... WPT ... (YAC) ...


Then there is always the possibilty of outsourcing the maintainance of the facility and get rid of the State Employees who probably make more money and have benefits that all add up ... Locals could probably use the additional income to provide for their familys and bring some personal pride into the facility and the town for that matter ... Nope, you people just are not thinking ... So you PO a few State workers, who cares, they are all over paid any way and they have other places to send them if they don't want to get rid of them ... They could cut the cost in half by getting the locals involved ... Get your thinking caps on folks... I am going to forward this as a suggestion to the State of Illinois as an outsider looking in and see what they think ... They can hire all Republicans and leave the democrates sit at home, this will get the Republicans out to vote also if it means their jobs are on the line ... Enticements, opportunity await all of those who want to work and are ready to show it ... "No need to Thank me" ...
Reposted from another thread ... Thanks for your support WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Why? We just did a telephonic zone shoot. so what is the difference.

 

So the weather and background conditions were the same at your telephonic shoot LadyT?

I remember one year during the Central Zone shoot one location had thunderstorms, high winds when it wasn't raining there were dark clouds the three days while the other areas had good weather. That makes for a good fair shoot, doesn't it?

 

Look this is very simple. Its the shooters responsibility to break the birds thrown regardless of conditions and yes its a fair shoot.

 

Ouch!

 

Can't agree with you, at all, on that one. 92, humid, hazy and buggy is not the same as 67, clear, with a good background.

 

If all things are less than Equal I seriously doubt it would go over very well ... Zone shoots are not the same as a Satelite Grand, or the Grand American so that Dog won't hunt ... Give me gentle breezes, mid 70's, low humidity and 2 hole targets (lol) and I will be a happy camper ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

To Save the WSRC :

Then there is always the possibilty of outsourcing the maintainance of the facility and get rid of the State Employees who probably make more money and have benefits that all add up ... Locals could probably use the additional income to provide for their familys and bring some personal pride into the facility and the town for that matter ... Nope, you people just are not thinking ... So you PO a few State workers, who cares, they are all over paid any way and they have other places to send them if they don't want to get rid of them ... They could cut the cost in half by getting the locals involved ... They can hire all Republicans and leave the democrates sit at home, this will get the Republicans out to vote also if it means their jobs are on the line ... Enticements, opportunity await all of those who want to work and are ready to show it ... "No need to Thank me" ...

Reposted from another thread and edited ... Thanks for your support ..... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

According to Himark's chart we had a steady increase of membership for 90 years, what the hell happened,?

GB DLS

 

From 1993 (spike) then decline, until the 100 th Grand which shows a sizable (spike) increase in attendance, then the ATA felt they were not going to be able to accomidate those many shooters and put limits on the entries as I seem to recall, which triggered a dramatic decline in attendance ever since, even though they were only Joking ... Once the relocation committee got it settled in Sparta, the decline drops on a continual basis until it is where it is today and fading fast ... Someone obviously got their nose out of joint back in 1993 and put the VOO DOO Whammy on it until the 100th Grand, removed it for one year for the 100th Grand and put it back on ... What other explaination could there possibly be ..? This year the big attraction will be the Rose Colored Glasses Parade and Demolition Derby besides seeing if the EC and BOD can duck the shooters who will probably have a lot of questions ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Bunch of wussys. Though you guys were real "trapshooters", oh well. Oh there is a cloud in the sky have to cancel the shoot.


In the clubhouse. WOW. The wind is murder outside. How fast is it blowing. I'd say about 5mph. WOW, that is bad. Guess they will cancel the shoot. Yep.

Guys all I though I was going to get with the ATA was some fun but there is drama and some really good comdiens in the ATA too. Nothing like a good laugh. Love it. Love it.Love it. simply love it.

 

The Problem
The World Shooting and Recreation Complex (WSRC) in Sparta, Illinois was completed in 2006 at a construction cost of $31.5 million (as well as another $18 million for road, water, and sewer improvement). The 1,600-acre facility includes 746 RV campsites, 120 trap shooting fields, and a 34,000 square foot events center.

The state-funded facility came fully loaded with high expectations. In August 2004, State Representative Dan Reitz said the World Shooting and Recreation Complex “will be the only state park in the state of Illinois that makes money.” In June 2005, the director of the Illinois Department of Natural Resources (IDNR), estimated the complex would bring the state about $50 million to $100 million in economic development each year, once up and running.

Has the Complex lived up to its hype? Not exactly. In fact, the Complex’s total projected revenue collection from fiscal year 2004 through fiscal year 2011 falls short of the total amount the state appropriated to the Complex by more than $1.5 million. The table below features the state expenditures for the Complex’s operation and maintenance as well as its imprest account, which is used to handle minor disbursements, such as awards for competitions. The categories of revenue for the complex include the WSRC Event Center/Mall/Tent etc., event income, concessions, camping related, sponsorship/advertising, shooting disciplines (individuals), shooting disciplines (groups), and gift certificates.

The expected benefit of increased economic activity has also not come to fruition. After the World Shooting and Recreation Complex opened in the summer of 2006, the raw sales tax data from the City of Sparta shows a slight decline in sales tax receipts in following years. When the tax receipts are adjusted for inflation, the decline becomes more dramatic, dropping below 2002 levels.

Our Solution
Projects such as the Sparta World Shooting and Recreation Complex are often touted for their potential to stimulate economic development, but they are rarely analyzed to see whether or not they have lived up to their boosters’ high expectations. The Sparta World Shooting and Recreation Complex should be taken off of the state dole, and similar projects should be avoided in the future.

Why This Works
State and local government should focus on delivering core services, especially in difficult economic times. Rather than attempting to spur economic development with complex and costly projects, the state government should focus on improving the business climate via tax and regulatory reform. By decreasing the cost of doing business in Illinois, the state can attract entrepreneurs and businesses that will drive sustainable job creation and economic growth.

 

I went to Sparta the second or third year after it opened (I 'm old and can't
Remember which one, except that it was blistering HOT, I wanted to
Use a lady's room, and their were NONE, except out houses.
(where I was shooting). There were three men sitting near where I was
They told me the they were from the Illinois Sparta committee, and
They had decided that there was not enough money to
complete the bathroom project. ....and that was early in the ATA
----Sparta partnership. So I left earlier than I wanted to that day,
To make the 50 mile trip back to the motel. I only stayed 3 days and back
To Florida I went. But, before the Grand, I went to Brittany for a 2 day shoot, what
A nice club, and terrific people.
(ps I did go back to Sparta several times after)

Greta c