~~~Will YOU Renew for another year again ???~~~

Who will renew again ?? Me~~PITA--PROBABLY !! ATA--PROBABLY NOT !!! Let us know YOUR feelings !!!

 

No need to. My family are lifers!

 

Absolutely ATA

 

Definitely ATA

 

even if I wasn't a lifer I would definitely renew

 

Sure .... they can have my 20 bucks for me being able to shoot at some targets at the shoots I like.

 

Am an ATA lifer

 

ATA, what is PITA ?

 

Something I call my young son on many occasions!

 

The year was 1930 and P.I.T.A. was formed for the benefit of shooters from the west. The first Pacific Grand American Handicap was held in early August, 1931 at the Del Monte Gun Club, Del Monte, California.

Enjoy Our History

 

For Sure !!!

 

I thought it had something to do with PETA animal Activist. Of coarse here is Ohio, it means People Eating Tasty Animals. Maybe out west it can mean People Ingesting Tasty Animals.

 

I am thinking the ATA must have been doing some silly things for another organization to be formed.

 

Family Guy,

It's a long story filled initially with some political correctness from the Pacific Coast shooters while they were being hammered repeatedly in Sportsmen's Review (becoming Trap & Field, February 1, 1956) for organizing in the West. The ATA reminded States that if they were not affiliated with the A.T.A., the recognized national governing body, then their scores were not recognized and their State Shoot was not recognized and they would not receive trophies and added money for their State Shoot like other affiliated States received.

It's an interesting piece of our history . . . . . . at least it is to me.

No Money or Trophies for States Not Registering With the A.T.A.​

The REVIEW announced several weeks ago a ruling made by the A.T.A. executive committee at its annual business session, to the effect that there would be no “double registration” of State shoots this year and hereafter.

This means that States that do not register their State tournaments with the A.T.A. will not be entitled to any money or trophies. Apparently this is not understood in some sections of the country, and for this reason it is reprinted. Very naturally, the A.T.A., which is the legally constituted governing head of national trapshooting cannot contribute money and trophies to States that through the action of a few soreheads, seek to weaken the national organization. While this action may work a hardship on many loyal supporters of the A.T.A. in some states, who would prefer to shoot registered targets and figure in the averages, it will be up to them to find a remedy. The A.T.A. rules are perfectly clear on the manner in which money and trophies are returned to the States. In handicapping and classifying shooters at the Grand American or other big shoots, of course, only A.T.A. registered averages will be recognized. [ SPORTSMEN’S REVIEW, March 28, 1931, page 276 ]

In order to have their State Shoot recognized California quickly organized a new State Association naming it the California Golden State Trapshooting Association.

California “Stays In the Union”​

The Los Angeles Gun Club through the action of its officers, J. F. Goodrich, president, Fred H. Teeple, secretary and other members and a large number of prominent shooters in Southern California are to be congratulated for their action in forming a new California State association, showing their loyalty to the Amateur Trapshooting association, the only logical legal governing head of national trapshooting, being the successor of manufacturers; control of the sport since 1923. That large numbers of California shooters will approve the action of the meeting at Los Angeles on March 5, goes without saying. Now that the California Golden State Trapshooting association has been formed and a four days’ State shoot scheduled for June 26, 27, 28 and 29, California shooters will have an opportunity to shoot registered targets and qualify a State Champion and State teams for the Grand American. They already have elected a State director in the A.T.A. As in other loyal states registering their shoots with the parent body, the State shoot at Los Angeles-Santa Monica gun club will receive a substantial sum of money and $150 worth of trophies for winners of State events. This dependable contribution of cash and trophies is only one of the great benefits State associations derive from the tie up of their shooters with the Amateur Trapshooting association. Without the A.T.A.’s machinery for collecting affiliation card money and registration fees, the chances are few states would collect it. Especially would this be true of States which have only temporary State organizations. Like her sister state of Arizona, where a few weeks ago “Bill” Mullen had the courage to speak up and say, “We stay with the A.T.A on the old ship of State, “Southern California’s shooters are not going to be led away after the “strange gods” and promises of “forty acres and a mule,” but will line up with States like Montana and Colorado, and Nebraska, Missouri, Kansas and Ohio and Pennsylvania and practically all of them in a national and not a sectional organization. So again, Los Angeles deserves praise from loyal A.T.A. members everywhere.
[ SPORTSMEN’S REVIEW, March 28, 1931, page 277 ]

While the West Coast organizers reasoned their new organization was necessary to better represent the shooters in that section of the country, thus providing more opportunity to shoot, while also staging a Grand style Championship closer to their trapshooters than Dayton, Ohio was, there was some disgruntled people who did not agree with the decisions being made by the A.T.A.

Once again, an article in Spotsmen's Review called for loyalty to the A.T.A. and spoke against the rival trapshooting organization saying that States choosing to join them will be the losers.

LOYALTY TO THE A.T.A. IS DUE FROM EVERY SHOOTER​

Some clubs and associations announce, “We will use A.T.A. rules and averages for handicapping and classifying, but our shoots will not be registered.” Unless the A.T.A. were supported by clubs and individual shooters with affiliations and registrations there would be no A.T.A. Any man who is capable of thinking at all knows that a national controlling head is necessary for the sport of trapshooting if it is to carry on in a systematic and not in a hap-hazard, helter-skelter “every feller for himself” sectional manner. The Amateur Trapshooting Association is the legal, logical successor of the manufacturers’ control of the sport, which dates back to 1892, when the Interstate Association was organized and the Grand American Handicap shoots inaugurated. As those who read know, the sport was turned over to the amateurs in 1923, under the name of the Amateur Trapshooting Association of America, national in scope, recognizing no section, with equal representation for every state. A national organization patterned after our Federal Government. It has accomplished much in the last seven years, one of its achievements being the building of the finest shooting plant in the world at Vandalia, O., for holding the Grand American and championship tournament each year – a plant of which every shooter with an ounce of “shoot” patriotism in his makeup should be proud of and willing to spend a few dollars on for its upkeep, regardless of whether or not he individually is able to enjoy it. Fortunately, the great mass of shooters knowing this, are loyal to the A.T.A.

In every organization, however, there are a few who are forever ready to “oppose the government and start something.” This class never get anywhere so far as blocking the “wheels of progress in the national organization is concerned. They merely in a small way weaken their national organization and in doing so deprive their own states of the benefits of being aligned with the controlling national organization. Before the A.T.A. came, very few states ever had any appreciable amount of money in the treasury for buying trophies and providing added money for the state shoots. If for no other reason, the shooters of all states should support the A.T.A. by shooting registered targets, because at the end of the year their state gets back a liberal amount of money that in some cases is “just like finding it,” in addition to trophies.

There are a multiplicity of reasons for a strong controlling body for trapshooting. There are no worthwhile reasons against it. A few shooters with a personal grievance, fancied wrongs or deep-seated prejudice against the controlling body may cost the national organization a few registered shoots, but in the end their states will be the losers. The fact that two or three states seek to start a rival national organization will have little effect on the parent body, which will carry on just the same; but if such movements are countenanced by any great number of shooters, a dangerous precedent is set that might in the end disrupt the national association – a condition that no thinking man wants to see. So those who have the best interests at heart and can view it from the national standpoint should be on guard. To carry on, the A.T.A. must have affiliations and registrations. These are the foundation stones of its existence. It has little other financial support, and in the years to come may have no other. Therefore, it is up to those who take a pride in their national organization to loyally contribute their affiliation and registration fees – a small thing to do, working a hardship on none, yet in the aggregate making the national body a tower of strength, serving the interests of the shooters of an undivided North America. [ SPORTSMEN’S REVIEW, April 25, 1931, page 355 ]

Enjoy Our History

 

I probably would if I wasn't a Lifer since 1975, never know when you get the itch to and shoot a few rounds, just like I do now ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

ATA yes, PITA probably...... Larry

 

ATA Yes been doing it for over 46 years why stop now , been good to me so far .
jdhog

 

I'm a lifer. No need to reup

 

Yes

 

What I read from Hitory Buff's post, is What the Hell Happened to our ATA leadership.

Where are the Men of today that are supposed to be representing the good intentions of it's members?

PITA is doing fine with their organization, they do not have a man like NW
thank God in their organization.

I wish PITA would keep the Competetive Target Settings. They could SET the STANDARD, that the ATA gave away!!

The ATA of today lacks a good governing body, My personal feelings is if Neal Crausaby were still the ATA President, the ATA would not have made
the Game Rules Changing, along with Vic Reindeer's, Vic's Views, written by him in Trap & Field and voiced at ATA meetings.

Neal Crausaby was back stabbed by XX whom everyone knows.

PITA is a well organized Trapshooting Organization we all should be proud of!!

Did the PITA per chance see the Handwriting On The Wall?

Maybe the Minnesota Hole Of Fame will remove him, so they can fill the Hole he created for them.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Not planning on it.

I shoot for fun and am only a first year shooter. This has been a very wet rainy year. Either I had a prior commitment that kept me from going to a ATA event (twice). Or there was bad weather and I didn't want to shoot in the pouring rain so didn't shoot (happened many, many times). Then I find out this 2015 membership I bought in February is about to expire. Wanted to shoot at least the final event in that time frame to see if I wanted to do ATA shooting. Now it's been cancelled. Heavy rains have caused the club where it was going to be to be flooded.

I've decided to just stick to my local league shooting.

 

NordCelt,
Good to hear you will continue to shoot.
Registered targets aren't for everyone.

I hope the rain lets up

 

Don't forget to give skeet and sporting a try as well.
"It is all fun with a shotgun."

 

I'm not. It seems just about every shoot (especially the state shoots around here) requires at least 1,000+ registered targets in the previous and current year, with at least 500 in the current year or they penalize you and put you in B class and at the 23 yard line. My average is around 90ish, which would put me solidly in C class and I haven't shot well enough to move off the 20 yard line. Between work and family, in the past two years I've been an ATA member, I haven't been able to shoot 1,000 registered targets and frankly, I don't think I'm going to be able to in the near future.

With the above in mind, it just feels stupid to be told I'm a C class and 20 yard shooter, but always having to shoot B and 23 yards all the time, especially when all the sandbagging B, C, and D class winners are shooting A class scores anyway (at least in VA...check out the scores at the VA state shoot). Bottom line, when you have to have target minimums and penalty yardage for folks who are classified, the classification system is broken, and this is doubly true when you *still* have folks successfully sandbagging and winning. I don't have the time and/or club connections to successfully target manage my way to class/handicap wins, and I have a long way to go to be competing for high overall wins, so it doesn't make sense for me to throw money down the drain by paying ATA dues.

For those who want to shoot ATA, more power to you. I'm just as happy going out practicing and shooting with friends/family at occasional local club matches for fun and small money.

 

Dolby

All know I am not the person that pulls the ATA bandwagon. A note to your state association stating your above post would go a long way in changing things at the state level. Just my 02.

 

Dolby,
Don't take it personal, its the rules of the game to try and eliminate the Sandbaggers ... It obviously does not work based on observation but none the less thats the intent ... Family guy gave you a good suggestion to try, so you have nothing to lose but a piece of paper and a stamp ... Good Luck, WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Probably so, but I'm taking a ....wait and see attitude first.

I could have signed my name to Dolby's post without changing a thing.

Things changed for me when the target requirements went from 500 to 1000.

Now I have to drive in excess of 50 miles for a Reg. shoot as local clubs have dried up.


Regards....Gerald

 

There are shoots that have dropped target requirements. You would need enough of a history to be placed where you may fit.

The problem the ATA will not address is score requirements to win with or without a set number of targets to qualify.

Trapshooting on a local level is fun and rewarding ... the ATA can earn future business or fade away ... their choice. The like it or stay home sales motto is working ... if they are only interested in transferring the bank balance to themselves and their Idols.

 

ATA certainly....Why miss all this fun ?

 

It's interesting to read the posts on various forums about ATA, PITA and a couple other Trapshooting associations. Folks belong to local clubs and normally bitch and moan about the management, costs, direction of the officers and so on. Then join a State or national organization and do the same thing. Seems that often the discussions become embroiled in numerous adversarial notes based on pure politics, geography, personal likes, personal dislikes, the good old days, the new wave of the future and some just plain pure meanness and pettiness, while some others have the mind set the rest of the world is exactly like or needs to be like their tiny portion of it. There are though quite often posts that display the fact many of those involved with the sport are trying to have fun and make things better. I am new to the game, I am old, opinionated and often cranky but try to be open minded about most things. I shoot almost exclusively with personal friends at small local ranges and shoot registered when I can and when it suits me. It is obvious I am neither an elitist nor a purist. Even though I buy supplies and stuff from other countries I am a Veteran and a Patriot. Even my Diamond Grade was made in Japan. As I read some posts I wonder if folks ever consider what they are, what they are doing and how their message might come across to others.... It seems to me it is very easy to be and destructive but quite a challenge to be positive and constructive........ Larry

 

Larry
So you really know nothing about the conversation, the history etc. You have never shot at the grand when it was GRAND. You did not put monies into the pot wasted at Sparta. You did watch the near demise of the registered trapshooting game. You did not shoot the tougher targets.

You may want to wonder how your own message is coming across to others.

 

Family guy, you have to know everyone has to start somewhere. My message should come across to folks as an indication of the picture being placed in front of those trying to enter the game today and that is exactly what I intended. I read the posts, I try to get something worthy from those that I can. By reading the posts I suspect I am aware of as much as any shooter coming into the game in the last few years and some of the posts are based on nothing more than obvious dislike and distrust. It is obvious where the game is today, what is not so obvious is where it is going in the future. I gather you do not think opinions and impressions of new shooters have no place in the current discussions? Larry

 

No Larry....quite the opposite.

When you discuss what is being talked about today on the site and then dismiss the past and history then the narrow minded issue is on your end. Most of these posters to go great lengths to show the past and how it relates to the present and the future. That is on both sides of all these issues.

Then you come up with the statement...

I suggest you read up Larry and look at previous posts. Saying these posts are are nothing more than dislikes and distrust shows your lack of knowledge of the history of this sport. Could be we have more passion for the sport.

Tell us your opinion of the difference between the targets of today and 30 years ago. Tell us your opinion and show some facts. Post what you want but you have only stated you don't like the messages and you don't have a clue about the history.

 

Welcome to the forum Larry.

In time you'll see the frustrations we have regarding some of the decisions made that negatively impact two organizations we care very much about. You'll also see us identified as "haters" or "bashers" for sharing our opinions which conflict with our leadership. I view our opinions as necessary and important "oversight" of our organizations. I only wish our Board of Directors (ATA Delegates) would become more involved, ask more questions and require the E. C. to discuss important matters with them prior to making monumental decisions. Our Delegates are the folks we've elected to provide proper oversight of the ATA and they need to do a better job at it. And since I was a Delegate for 3 years, I'll place blame upon myself as well. But it does take a new Delegate some time to get up to speed on all the issues and before you have the confidence to speak with intelligence on some issues.

I did make an effort to eliminate that $16,500 shotgun allowance the ATA President gets at the end of his service, opting for a more appropriately valued commemorative gift, but most Delegates felt they deserve the nice firearm. It didn't matter that it takes 825 new ATA memberships each year to pay for that gun and that's before you evern mail out new member plastic and average cards.

Oh well, perhaps nothing will change but I still have a right to my opinion . . . . . even if I am considered to be a "hater."

 

Welcome to the Dark Side HistoryBuff, You're not a hater to me your a keeper of the faith. 825 new members, can you make me a graph of that over the last twenty years? Brad

 

It is easier to see the light from the dark end of the tunnel.

Complicated graph. As more guns are distributed membership plummets. Where is N1H1?

 

Life member.

 

Please note my post did not refer to anyone or any point of view in particular, nor did I single out a particular site. I would gather that unless I was a shooter 30 years ago I have no business even posting......... Larry

 

Gerald,
Write or Call your DELEGATE. Maybe the ATA could make a change and let the people with to few targets shoot their class without penalties on a target only basis. This would up attendance and also let them get a feel for higher competition.

The ATA and the shooters would benefit from this action, this could be at State and Zone shoots, it should also extend to all Grand events. If this is something that would make it easier for you to shoot bigger events get in touch with your delegates and recommend it to them. I will talk to mine asap.
Roger Coveleskie

 

Wonderful post Roger, a positive suggestion that could perhaps get some new blood into the organization and the sport. Without creating a pathway into the ATA family for the young folks the organization will diminish as the old guard becomes fewer and fewer. Individual passion will not sustain the organization, new blood is needed, new energy is needed and new passions need to be kindled.
History Buff, great post and comments..... A question for you. Where do you feel the strength of the organization is to be found? If that strength can be identified and tapped then it could also be used as a tool for the changes you and others feel need to take place to nurture the organization..... Larry

 

Roger:

If you have to few targets to shoot in your class, you should get them at your local gun club.

Ron Burdick

 

Ron,


There is no way that a rule can force people to shoot targets if there personal lives will not allow the leisure time. The sport needs all of the competitors that we can get. If we can not accomadate people that want to shoot, how are we to regain the attendance we use to have?


I agree, support your local club, but not being able to do so, should not deter you from shooting in your class at a larger shoot. If they are willing to shoot on a targets only basis it is a win win for them and the ATA. Good public relations is the back bone of business, and it should work for a shooting organization also. We have been looking back at what we used to be, now is the time to start looking forward to what we can grow into.


I have been in business for 54 years. and have never been able to coerce customers into spending with me.//// Roger Coveleskie

 

Good post Larry. See, I knew you would fit right in with this group. Sometimes we get a little off track but I assure you we all care very much about trapshooting, the ATA, the Hall of Fame and our friends who shoot. Some are very quick to label us instead of asking us why we feel as we do or at least accept of different point of view. You'll notice that you can see some pretty detailed information on this forum as well as thought-provoking questions regarding the health and future of our sport.

Answer: The strength of our organization can be found in all of us; we members. Identifying the strengths are not always easy. I know that the ATA very much needs honest and trustworthy leaders. Men and women who will accept no handouts from the organization. Willing to serve without compensation. Willing to hold telephonic or chat room meetings and forego those expense paid trips to hold meetings at one of the big shoots. There is no need to have the ATA president or a vice-president at a large tournament. Yes, it's nice to see them and ask the occasional question but it is not necessary to spend the ATA's funds in this manner, especially during tough times. I believe it is unconscionable to accept a $16,500 firearm from this organization and I've said so to several ATA Presidents. Thankfully, one President listened to some of my opinions and about 2007 or so made the decision to require that all Presidents, even Past Presidents be properly sent a 1099 Form for their gifted firearm. Prior to that time the valued gift never could be identified within their expenses and I was told they did not pay the required tax.

There are both young, middle aged and old members who would make great leaders. Of course I'm speaking about those with integrity and who understand the importance of communicating regularly with both the Board of Directors (Delegates) and we the members and also have a willingness to air our dirty laundry. Nobody likes this job but it would do much to make or organization stronger, weed out the wrongdoers and regain the trust from those of us who truly lover our sport and our valued organization . . . the Amateur Trapshooting Association.

I know how hard it is to identify those people with the highest degree of honesty . . . . . and you can be assured that it is even harder getting them placed in the line of progression for a position on the Executive Committee.

In closing I can tell you that I received a call from a State Delegate today who asked me what was going on with the ATA and Illinois regarding the closure of the World Shooting & Recreational Complex because he hasn't received any communication from the ATA. I said, "How should I now? I'm not a delegate nor to I hold any position or standing that would permit me to have more information that our Delegates. I reminded this Delegate that as a member of the Board of Directors, it is their duty to demand that the E. C. stay in continuous communication with their BOD and seek approval on monumental issues prior to implementing any changes.

I suspect business will continue as it has until we elect Delegates who realize the power of change is within their authority. All they have to do is use the tools provided them in our Constitution and By-Laws.

Amen.

 

Why should we fear any sandbagger if our decision to control them hurts any new member such as Larry? It would be great if new members could shoot on a probationary basis. That and not lumped into the masses of older more experienced old timers still quite capable of turning in a great score even though classed in the same classes a new shooter may be!

It seems to me the sandbagging fear appeared to escalate more so when we lessened target difficulty, officially in 97, mandating an easier set target. I may agree with the bigger state shoots or our Grand or zone shoots using this penalty but our smaller ATA club shoots also use this method of control. It's at those small shoots where ATA gets most of their membership numbers from?

We're losing a lot of those clubs and that makes garnering new members even tougher to come by. This needs discussing at all levels of ATA membership and rectified for our sports sake.

I spoke with my state Delegate concerning the yardage punch change and he voted against it, good for him! It still passed due to small states not having enough shoots that their small numbers wanted to earn yardage! If it's yardage only they wanted ATA would have awarded them the 25 yard line for free!! As usual, we punish all to satisfy a few?

HAP

 

I did in the ATA.

 

Many renew their ATA memberships in order to be able to shoot registered targets not to support the present EC and what they (the EC) have done to/with our association. Many would prefer the ATA to pursue an alternate path that would see the targets shot under ATA rules that would have targets set as straight aways from positions 1 and 5, 9 to 10 ft at the setting stake and the distance at 50 yds, These people also renew their ATA memberships in hope of a change. Until some changes are made that will increase ATA membership we will continue to loose or just stagnate with memberships.

 

Seems there are two ATA's........ the Camelot with King whomever, his trusty $16,500 Excalibur and a select "Round Table" of knights to keep him and them in power and Camelot shiny. Then there are all the other clubs struggling to have shooters and operating on a budget that in a year does not approach the cost of the "kings" sword... We are hosting a registered shoot in a few weeks, we hope for 30 shooters, we hope to make a few hundred dollars, we all hope to do well and have a good time. We would all like to not embarrass ourselves and maybe even earn a punch..... One wonders if King? knows there are such places.... Larry

 

The little clubs all across America and around the world are the grass roots of the game, the ATA fails to recognize them and acknowledge them for what they really are and what they bring to the sport ... Without all of the clubs that collect the daily fees for the ATA and State Associations there would be no need for the ATA, which would constitute an immediate savings of $16,500 plus, plus, pus ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

When the leader(s) are consumed with preserving the location of their businesses, and trying to 'sell' bad decisions, they tend to ignore the bread and butter.

When you put self-serving people in places in need of a fiduciary, "you get what you got".

 

Sure will, Why not????

 

It is that time year again.

 

I am a Lifer over 55 years

 

Oh you poor thing having to drive 50 miles. You are spoiled. I wish I had your problem.

 

I feel that membership in any organization gives me a vested interest in the happenings...... I belong and will continue to belong. I will never see the BIG shoots but state and region are on my list........ Larry
LadyT....... two of the ranges I frequent are 50 one way and both require going over high elevation mountain passes........ Just the way it is. Matter of fact it does not matter where I go for whatever reason it is a long way and over the top of some mountain or other. Just the way it is.

 

With dozens of trap clubs within 50 miles of where I live I'm often undecided where to spend my day. If ATA meant that much I'd probably move to where it's popular. Let's face it, it's only expensive practice with little return on investment!

 

ATA already joined

 

"Will YOU Renew for another year again ???" ..... No

20 bucks is less than the price of the dog food my very spoiled dog wastes in a week ..... But, I may be able to take 20 bucks and donate it somewhere that someone can enjoy it more than me just donating it to the "ATA" .....

The Kool Aid Crew tries hard to find reasons that people "dislike the ATA" ..... but none are willing to spend the tens of thousands of dollars, and time on the road, to understand the "feeling" .....

 

Not so sure.

I did not shoot much anyway.

 

ATA Lifer here. No plan to change or move.

 

Two lifers in my family and my wife still loves collecting trinkets. Actually, just occasionally beating fellow in-stater, Deb Ohye, is enough to keep her interested. Matching Deb with 199/200 in our State Shoot last year and losing the shootoff is enough to keep me interested in her performance!