Weird comments at the OSTA meeting....more like shocking! 2021

I am not sure if Merlo's quote "weird" is appropriate. It was another Dysinger "told you so moment".

I went to the OSTA Meeting to ask a few questions. I thought I knew the answers going in. Almost!

I wanted to know or show how much our delegate was involved in the goal making and planning for ATA success. That our delegate was looking out for the best interest of Ohio Trapshooters.

Question 1....
How much were you involved in the ATA Director’s contract? Such as benchmarks for bonuses?

Answer:
“A while back”….(not sure what date he said) “we gave the Executive Committee the power to negotiate contracts.”
“Yes I know that. I am asking how much you were involved in establishing those goals and benchmarks?”
“Not at all.” my Delegate said.
“Have you even seen the contract?
“No I have never seen the contract. But, if you want to drive to Illinois you can see it for yourself.”
“The reason I ask," I said, "is because the ATA filed an IRS Form 990 that specifically states the Board of Directors approved these yearly bonuses.”
“That isn’t true”, he replied. “We didn’t approve them.”
And you would think that was the end. Nope

Now for the bizarre!

“One more question for the delegate. How long is the Executive Director’s contract?
“As long as he wants. He serves at his discretion.”

 

In previous discussions.ATA President Shaw, and Vice President Hayes made it very clear that I cannot see the contract.

 

Someone tell me this isn't true.

 

What the EC is doing looks like they are going into high gear with some actions to alleviate the ATA of funds. We have either got the dumbest or the slickest people in charge of our organization. I think we need to have an audit of the whole organization for the last 5 years. If it means going to court then by all means lets get on with it. The delegates are about worthless, they do not seem to know what their jobs are. or they know and do not care Roger C.

 

Maybe we should start a fund to finance the audit of the organization. We surely have enough caring and honest members that want to save the ATA, and to cleans it of this disgusting situation it has morphed into. Roger C.

 

The time for legal action / audits would of been at least 10 + years ago when all of the property's were being bought for the relocation of the business offices ... If you have nothing to Hide, Hide NOTHING ... The ED's contract should be available without having to drive to Illinois to see or read it with all inclusions /bonus's as a line item ... The assets of the Corporation should be froze by legal action until a complete audit/ disclosure can be performed ... Count me in on that Roger ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

According to the delegate this filing is false?

 

So, After your questions I’m guessing you weren’t invited out for a beer with the boys.

 

"No I have never seen the contract. But, if you want to drive to Illinois you can see it for yourself.”

What a smartass answer. Sounds just like the graphmaster.

I would have told him,

How about this. You drive your sorry ass to ILLnews and STAY THERE. Give up your OH delegate position and we will get someone that isn't a jerk and can answer an honest question with a professional answer.

NO? How about this then. You get your lazy ass to the computer and request a copy of the contract. Tell them as a delegate you have every right to see it.

Geeeeez, the arrogance never surprises me.

 

Who is the Ohio delegate? Roger C.

 

I believe it is Blair.

 

The Ohio Delegate as well as every other delegate on the BOD should have copies and make them available to the general membership on request ... Gipson as well as the entire EC and many of the BOD are as corrupt as they come ... They can be stopped, problem being there are not enough members who give a shit anymore so they keep being the runaway train ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

hmmmmm. According to this delegate, the Executive Director has a life contract. Lol. What if that is true?

 

Lots of complaining going on but yet I only saw one name on the ATA delegate ballot.

 

No one cares to get involved, ATA is dying. Ohio below 700 shooters in the handicap, 1975 there were 1600 shooters, ten years ago around 1200. Numbers don't lie.

 

I seem to recall there have been attempts to enforce the Codes of Conduct for a Non Profit before since the relocation seems like nothing ever happened once the paper work got filed, ( if it got filed ) or we never heard anything more about it ... The State of Illinois seems to have different standards when it comes to enforcement of rules, laws, and codes of conduct or nothing has ever been reported ... There has to be a States Attorney wanting to make a name for him self or her self willing to file for an Audit or disclosure to make sure things are on the up and up ... Lynn ( the Talking Head ) Gipson obviously has some pretty heavy information that the EC is afraid could be disclosed but sooner or later it is bound to happen ... It sure would be nice if the Martins would sponsor a complete investigation and eliminate the Swamp people ( ED, EC, and some of the BOD) in doing so ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

This doesn’t look like an attack on the organization. OP merely pointed out the Ohio delegate is a jerk. He is part of the problem.

There is corruption wherever there are humans. I would be embarrassed if I were part of the OSTA.

 

If the Ohio State ATA Delegate gave this response he is as normal as any other State/Provincial Delegate. That is, most of them either don't know or care to learn or recognize their required duties.

Sadly they are like most members. Most just want to shoot and not get too involved in ATA decisions.

However, to provide an accurate answer to the question of any ATA Executive Director having a lifetime contract, the alleged statement is FALSE. The E.D. does not serve at his/her own discretion.

When you don't know the answer to a question, it is always best to say so. Tell the requestor that you will find the answer and provide it to them.

HB

 

Employment contracts, even for 501c3 organizations, are not public information. Never have and likely never will. They are privileged information only to be shared among those designated to be on the 'compensation committee' of the organization. If an employees contract is made public he can likely sue for damages for an unauthorized disclosure. It's likely an delegate/BOD member won't be given access to the contract even if s/he wanted to see it. Certainly members of the organization won't be permitted to view it. Just because someone insists something is true, doesn't make it true.

Now 'total compensation' of senior employees must be made public via the 990 form and is easily found if one wishes.

Also, at the annual Board of Director's meeting there is likely a motion made where the BOD accepts and authorizes all decisions made by the Executive Committee. So, by proxy, the BOD is authorizing whatever compensation and bonus the EC authorizes for employees. That doesn't mean the BOD is doing the right thing, have a clue what is going on, or even know what they are voting for....but it's perfectly legal.

I for one am happy the ATA is only paying *1* Executive Director at the moment. Not too long ago we were paying for 3 simultaneously.

 

Thank you jumanji for an intelligent response . That should resolve the nonsense displayed hear .

 

There was a time when the Members ( Life Members ) got a complete financial report on an annual basis, why this was discontinued has always been a mystery to me being as with all of the modern electronics they would only have to push a button and e mail or text it to the membership roster or only those who would request it ... It would be a matter of Data being entered and sent PERIOD .... I say and have always said " if you have nothing to hide, Hide Nothing " , obviously that is not the case ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

And I did not ask for a copy. The delegate was asked if he was involved in deciding the benchmark for bonuses. Why ask that? Because the ATA lied on the tax return. "goals and objectives established by the Board of Directors (delegates). False

The Delegate said he never saw the contract, and was not involved in the year to year goal setting. Another lie to the IRS and the membership. And this Delegate doesn't seem to care.

 

Then this delegate lied when he said I could see it if I drove to Illinois.

But, the ATA told the IRS, the State of Illinois,, and the membership that the delegates created the bonus program and benchmarks for goals. Which we know is false!

 

Correct! The ATA insisted on the form 990 that the delegates/BOD established the bonus program. We know that isn't true.

 

That may be true. According to the Ohio Delegate, he is oblivious to the bonus structure, and goals set for the ATA, and doesn't seem to care. Now the IRS, State of Illinois, and the membership, can see our delegates are asleep.

 

Filing a false tax return is not legal.

Lying to the membership at an Official Meeting should have consequences. Lying to the IRS should have consequences.

 

Why? What is there to hide?

I know an Assistant Attorney General that might disagree with a lot of this.

 

That's right! Too bad this crap couldn't have come out sooner right! We know what we have now. There shouldn't be any doubt.

 

Can I walk into your job / place of employment and demand to see your employment contract and terms of employment? BTW: Go Orange!

 

If you read my entire post you’ll see that there was likely a mechanism where the BOD did approve of the bonus program (whatever that may be) that the EC / Compensation Committee established, albeit in a round-about manner. I’m not a lawyer but very likely perfectly legal and unfortunately fairly common.

 

Would you like Frank Rively’s phone number?

 

Jumanji try this again. NO ONE ASKED FOR THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT. AGAIN..... NO ONE ASKED FOR THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT!

Are we clear on that yet? I asked the delegate if he helped create the goals as the ATA claimed on the taxes. He said no. NO ONE ASKED FOR THE TERMS.
The fictitious form 990 claims....goals and objectives established by the Board of Directors.

No one asked for the terms.

According to the delegate above and the other delegates I have talked to......none know anything about the goals and objectives established by the Board of Directors.

The first person to alert me to this was Phil Kiner. I am not sure where he is hiding.

 

Ain't that the truth

 

This is not about bad stufff at the OSTA. This is the part of the ATA business that happens at the meeting. The ATA Delegates are lead to believe this is how it works.

The OSTA is a great organization. Fantastic Foundation. They give out scholarships and have one of the best Halls Of Fame.

You hear me yelling to keep the Grand anywhere but Ohio. This is why.

 

I have noticed Phil Kiner being AWOL or MIA for quite awhile, speculation tells me he found out some of the BS going on and separated him self rather than be a part of it ... I could be wrong, only he knows for sure ... I looked him up on the ATA web site, it appears he stepped back and it looks like he quit (unless) I am reading that wrong ) ... There was a time Paul Shaw had a lot of people talking favorably about him , it appears that changed also ... (The CANCER grows ) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Paul Shaw must have gotten paid? We need a certified copy of the Check book Entries, and bank BALANCES OF all accounts.

GB..................................DLS

 

The ED Cannot serve at his Discretion, His Actions must be approved BEFORE he can act, is ACTIONS must BE APPROVED AS THE ATA is responsible for his actions, both monetarily and especially illeagal actions, and any repuracations that can arise from his actions, as well as incarcerations in prison.

GB..........................................DLS

 

We as Life Member should file a Federal Takeover of the ATA Offices Completely and file Seizure of all Accounts under the Security of the Federal Government
so all ATA Monetary Holdings are Secure,Treasurer is removed from office, all office personnel are removed from all ATA Buildings Like whaT HAppened to the Clinton Foundation that was operating Illeagally w/federal money. Have the FBI Force entry into Illinois ATA Offices and secure all monetary accounts & Holdings and secure the Museum Artifacts, Change Locks on the Museum, Remove Jim Bradford from all ATA Bldgs, remove all ID's of ED, BOD, President, Secretary, Treasure,Trap & Field Personnel, Secure the WSRC Buildings, Secure Lynn Gipsons Office and Firearms by ATF. Nothing Moves, Period.Illinois State Highway Patrol to secure buildings and grounds from Entry.

Actions taken by Life Members of the ATA in overtaking complete organization.

GB.....................................DLS

 

And Somebody go get a rope!

 

Jumanji,

I appreciate your comments.

Though my knowledge is limited on this subject, I was aware that more often than not, the financial arrangements of employees are kept confidential. I had hoped it might be different for charitable and/or not for profit organizations.

Many many years ago, the Board of Directors (State & Provincial Delegates) empowered the Executive Committee to conduct the daily business of the ATA during the 364 days between the annual BOD meeting.

The authority granted to the E.C. did not come without some restrictions. E.C. members are charged with carrying out the policies of the BOD. Also, anyone who conducts business on behalf of the ATA is required to do so with the association's best interests. They all must give faithful performance. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any consequence for some elected and/or appointed officials.

One example that comes quickly to mind was the 2012 PULL LLC matter. I'm still looking for a person who performed their duties faithfully and made a decision that was in the best interests of our association. But, that's another subject.

I do have a couple questions regarding an employee's financial agreement, as it relates to a 501c3 organization and would appreciate any help to better understand why the information must be considered confidential and not made public.

If the wages, bonuses and other compensation is readily available on the IRS Form 990, what is the reason for prohibiting any member of an organization's Board of Directors from reviewing the agreement?

Doesn't the Board of Directors have the actual power of an organization and is it not their duty to be fully aware of important decisions made by those they've entrusted the authority to carry out their (BOD) approved policies?

If an organization's constitution and by-laws require BOD involvement in the hiring and firing of any member, to include establishing compensation or the discharge of an employee for not conducting business in the best interest of the organization, would it (by-laws) be the controlling authority above an employment agreement between a new employee and an Executive Committee?

 

HB,
I have to hand it to you, you are the MAN ... Love this guy ... Speak softly and carry a big stick type guy (Love it ) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Kenny when I was on the OSTA board we also served as the OSTA foundation board, a charity, we had to have separate minutes and a separate meeting even though we were the same people. We hid nothing from the public. We did go into executive session for special reasons but then had to by law come out of executive session and vote in a public meeting. Sunshine laws demand this.

I've owned my business for 26 years, been on government and private boards and at no time did an employee have a contract that it was UP TO HIM how long he stayed. Damn-est thing I ever heard. The EC is corrupt and the BOD is incompetent. But then again I told YOU this many years ago so I'm not shocked by anything I hear out of an ATA official.

 

Dear History Buff,

You ask good questions that I'm really not qualified to answer. As you know, I'm not a labor attorney nor an expert in non-profit regulations despite being on the board of a few of them and having negotiated employment contracts from both ends of the table.

My best guesses to answer some of your questions:\
- IRS Regulations require 501c3's to make public total compensation of top executives. In the ATA's case this is likely limited to the ED (and possibly the Controller, I haven't looked in a few years).
- Employment contracts have other details in them besides compensation. I've never seen an ATA contract and likely never will but in my experience there are common items such as: length, options to renew, bonus structure, working hours/conditions/locations, time off, retirement contributions, health insurance contributions, insurance mandates, terms and process in which the employee can be terminated, required responsibilities/goals, non-competes, hold harmless agreements, promises not to disclose confidential information, and whatever 'perks' the employee and the employer can agree on.
- It is often in the best interest of both parties to keep this information private, in many states employment contracts are legally protected information.
- Much of the above is governed by state labor laws. Every state is different and has different requirements. I don't have a clue what Illinois labor laws require for disclosure or privacy.
- I would be willing to bet that the ED contract has an end-date and process for re-upping. Highly unlikely the employee themself have the ability to extend it / keep working without one.
- As you mentioned, organizations like the ATA are governed by their by-laws.
- The BOD is responsible for enforcing the by-laws as you know.
- Most organizations have a defined 'compensation committee' made up of several members of the BoD that is responsible for negotiating / enforcing / approving employment contracts.
- The ATA has 60 or so members of the BoD that only get together once a year, it would be unwieldly to have all of them involved in employment negotiations.
- I am not sure what would happen if a delegate / BoD member not on the compensation committee demanded to see an employment contract. It would be an interesting experiment. Despite my misgivings about how the ATA is run, if I were an EC member I'd probably try to discourage this from happening. If forced to, I would let the BoD member *look* at a paper copy, not make any sort of copy of it, and threaten them with serious ramifications if they disclose the terms.
- It seems to me that most delegates have no clue they are BoD members and what that power entails. As you alluded too, they've ceded all power and decision making to the EC. I would also like to see one or a couple of them leverage their individual and collective power but I don't recall that happening. They'd likely lose out on their chance for a free gun.
- I was told by an ex-ED that his main job was to keep 3 out of the 5 members of the EC happy at all times.

Again, most of these are my opinion and likely wouldn't hold up to expert analysis. It's my best attempt to answer your questions.

 

Thank you Jumanji,

Your explanation certainly allows me to better understand both sides of the issue. And you make several points that I believe would be better for our association by providing much needed oversight.

The idea of including members of the BOD on the compensation committee has merit, provided they were interested in serving the organization with the highest level of integrity. I could accept the privacy issue if there were additional eyes on the Executive Committee.

You are correct that most Delegates don't have a clue. It takes a few years of watching, reading and learning what your duties are. Most don't take the time. They are good people, they just want to limit their involvement in big issues. They just want to shoot. I understand that. I do know that once you start paying attention and see some of the sneakiness, you also realize that it is near impossible to correct it. Some would not believe your findings anyway.

Nobody believe the information about the Trapshooting Hall of Fame taking donations to build a $2 million dollar museum that they were gifting to the State of Illinois.

I could trust the E.C. if they made decisions using a balanced scale of justice. Executive Committees of the past have done some sneaky stuff and future E.C.'s learning of past wrongs chose to allow the dirt to remain under the rug.

Your ex-ED told you the truth, but as some ex-ED's learned, sometimes the majority you think you had on your side drops from 3 to 2, and then you find yourself in serious trouble. I think that may have been what happened to Jim Thompson when he tried to improve on transparency for our association.

Again, I appreciate you taking time to help us better understand the complexities of the issue.

I'll keep praying that a majority of our Delegates read the By-Laws and learn their obligations to the ATA.

Here's an article posted in Sportsmen's Review (later Trap and Field), from April 1933 when they realized the importance of choosing the best person to represent State and Provincial shooters.

​

 

Has the 'ATA' devolved into nothing more than a 'line/path' to a 'free shotgun' ?????

Is a 'free shotgun' enough to attract the type of people willing to give up all personal integrity for it ?????

If so ..... buy all 'in line' their free shotgun and close the doors ..... so the 'dreamers' can stop dreaming of a return of the 'glory days', and the new/youth shooters can have a better future .....

The poor dead horse has been beat for long enough ..... it deserves to a proper grave .....

There can only be a bright future, if the dark past is not allowed to shadow it .....

 

Again Jumanji would want you guys to think he cant understand the topic.

The post is not about contract content. We can read that right? The content of the Executive Director's contract was never mentioned. We can read that right? And of course that is not the big issue.

The issue is whether some folks should be fired. YES! I SAID FIRED!

1. According to the Delegate, the Executive Committee has not been informing the Delegates of the content of the ED's contract. All the Delegates I have spoken with have said the same.

2. According to the Delegate, a false statement has been made to the members and to the IRS. The form 990 clearly states the Executive Director's yearly bonus structure was created and approved by the Delegates/Board of Directors. FALSE

3 Whoever is responsible for the fictitious statement on the form 990 to the tax collectors needs to be fired. There are penalties for lying to the IRS. The ATA must deliver penalties also. The Delegates need to decide culpability.

Reading the IRS Form 990 you would think all the bonuses paid were approved by the Delegates. Nothing is being kept secret.

If what the Delegate said is true, then they should have a meeting soon. In my opinion the Executive Committee should be relieved ASAP. Get to work Delegates.

 

I ask my delegate if he seen the and approved the contract. NO RESPONCE. The Arizona delegate is silent. Roger C.

 

Do the Delegates have the authority to fire Executive Committee Members?

 

The goals given to the ED should be the seeds of success for the organization. How successful has the organization been? How can the delegates or EC members fulfill their obligations without being a part of those discussions?

 

Jumanji you said-
The ATA has 60 or so members of the BoD that only get together once a year, it would be unwieldly to have all of them involved in employment negotiations.

If they won’t get together to to set the goals for the Executive Director then for what? That is exactly what they should do. I have to wonder what previous positions you held in the ATA.

 

Depends on how much faith you have it the written words in any constitution or by-laws.

In short, according to our guiding principles and ATA regulations approved by those (BOD) who are directed to establish the policies which govern the association, the delegates can terminate the employment of all officers, agents and employees of the corporation.

It will never happen since most delegates do not understand their duties and powers and are not familiar with or just chose to not carry out their duties as required by ATA by-laws.

Any delegate reading my comments should read ATA by-laws immediately.

Then require the ATA to provide the IRS Form 990 each year when they are provided with the Amateur Trapshooting Association Consolidated Financial Statement. Isn't it odd that the Executive Director's total annual wages and bonuses would be omitted from this document? It's open to the public. Anyone in the world can see the Form 990.

Few delegates have ever taken time to review it. Strive to be a better Board of Director. Ask questions, confirm everything you are told and for God's sake start paying attention to the decline in our sport.

 

I'm not sure what you are insinuating but I've never held any appointed or elected position with the ATA.

While I've been an outspoken critic of many things the ATA has done, I have to wonder if you've ever been in any meeting with a board of 60 people all trying to make a decision. They would likely miss dinner trying to decide what to have for lunch. I can't think of any highly functioning organization that would attempt such a thing.

 

Brad,
You are correct about the OSTA meetings. The Foundation Meeting is called to order with a roll call of members being taken, issues are discussed according to the agenda provided, financial statements are presented /discussed and the meeting is closed. Upon completion, the Board Meeting is called to order and the same process is followed. Our Secretary posts the minutes, of both meetings, on Ohiotrap.com so the membership can stay informed and we can maintain our transparency as an organization.

 

Responding to that silliness will take a few posts. LOL

Here are a few notable times the Delegates got together and made decisions.

1, When the forum exposed that the EC was giving themselves free guns illegally. It was Assistant AG Pasquale Ortiz that forced that meeting. The Delegates had to fix that.

2. Remember when the Delegates were fooled by the HOF Committee. They all thought the HOF building was owned by the HOF or the ATA. None knew it was owned by the State of Illinois. And then they donated $275,000 to the Illinois building fund. Ooops. The EC knew the building was owned by Illinois. Strange how that worked out.

3. Every time a by-law or rule needs changed. There are no roll call votes tho. Who knows what happens right?

And who says the Delegates/BOD should only meet once? They can meeting anytime they want. They can meet as often as they want. It is their job.

I have more.

Ponder this....How successful has the EC been the last 20 years? Is this their accomplishment? Less than 2,000 in the GAH?

Trump would say....you're fired!

 

Jumanji...
My delegate is capable of telling other delegates what has made Ohio successfull. Isn't your delegate capable? My questions to my Delegate had little to do with his actions. It was more about the lies from the EC. Those are the folk you seem to want to trust. The ones that told you and the tax collector and the Delegates, that the Executive Director "may receive incentive compensation contingent on the organization meeting goals and objectives established by the Board of Directors." FALSE

If the Delegates cant do their job. We fire them.
If Delegates won't fire the EC that isn't doing their job. We fire them.
If the EC is doing a lousy job, they can be fired.
All officers can be fired by the Delegates/Board of Directors.

If the ATA is failing, it is the member's fault. We must hold the Delegates to task.

 

I love that, “ may receive incentive compensation” BS

Translation?
Look here’s the deal. We can’t really pay you BUT, we can give you a, shall we say a gift, for all that hard work you put in as the grand pooba

But guys, I really don’t do that much and are you sure we can do that? I mean it sounds kinda shady.

Naw, it’s all good. We got caught with our hand in the cookie jar a while ago but we fixed that.

Right guys?

( Sounds of laughter)
You bet. No problemo now. You still get the gun.

Well, if you guys say it’s OK then who am I to say it isn’t? Sounds good to me.
I do have one question though

When do I get it?

 

If your delegate gets defensive because you asked questions, then you need a new delegate.

 

Strange comments for sure….

I was thinking the Ohio Delegate is a liar or a jerk. And now I realized they made him OSTA President. I hope he gets quizzed at the Cardinal Classic about those statements.

 

Did delegate Blair read the contract while in Sparta as was recorded in the minutes from the annual meeting?

 

Ken- great question.

If he, Delegate Blair, did see it, He will probably respond that he wasn’t allowed to write anything down, take a picture, or copy it. Although the by-laws say he and the rest of the Delegates have that responsibility. The ATA filed an IRS form 990 which Blair implied is false. Really false filing with the IRS?

As per the minutes posted on the OSTA site. They were not voted on. The smart assed statement by Delegate Blair that I could see the contract if I wanted to drive to Sparta was so far stricken from the record.

All the above is strange rhetoric tho. The minutes have not been voted on. Who gave the Secretary the authority to print the incomplete minutes?

I have also written to the Secretary asking when the Delegate said he would look at the contract? He didn’t say that at the meeting. No response yet.

I have email discussing the above

 

Why do all of our delegates turn out to be ass holes as c soon as they are elected? They should sign a contract to represent the shooters of the state that elects them.
That would not be asking to much from them. Roger C.

 

Juwmanji, Are you a licenced attorney? In what state do you practice law? Roger C.

 

Same story different year from the same delegate? Tell me.

 

Info posted here is relevant to ATA voting at the meeting at the Grand.

 

You cannot get reputable people to help. You can see the hell I raised against Neil
Winston the lying SOB.

GB....................................DLS

 

If I win the Lottery Tonite$ Billion .2 I will Move the GAH to Cardinal Center W/ my crew.

GB.......................................DLS