Failure to Fire

Until last week I never heard of a shooter calling a failure to fire. For whatever reason he did not shoot. He looked at the score keeper and said "failure to fire one." He then called for another bird.

Is this the right protocol?

 

In my opinion only no you called for it you shoot it.

 

In skeet your action has to be closed TILL REFEREE inspects in order to make sure everything is kosher... trap is a little more lenient with self monitoring of ftf vs. Not liking target presented. I still think shells that ftf should be forfeit to shoot management for inspection.

 

It could be. What did the scorer feel about it? It is up to the score keeper, shoot management should have discussed these types of problems with the scorers.

Just because he the shooter says FTF does not make it so, but he can try, what was the shooters grounds for the FTF? What was scorers decision?

There is a problem with Federal Top Gun Shells having primers SET TOO DEEP.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Gary, not sure the score keeper can do too much with this one. All the shooter has to do is claim he/she flinched and it's an allowable FTF. I feel bad for those that flinch but I think those should be scored lost, not FTF as the current rule allows.

Actually the rule in trap does not allow a FTF for disliking the the target presented. Yes, some folks will abuse the rule and get away with it. As far as forfeiting the shell of a FTF, what would be the purpose? You can forget to load your gun and get a FTF. No shell to forfeit.

 

Actually the rule in trap does not allow a FTF for disliking the the target presented. Yes, some folks will abuse the rule and get away with it. As far as forfeiting the shell of a FTF, what would be the purpose? You can forget to load your gun and get a FTF. No shell to forfeit.[/QUOTE]
why i said trap is more lenient, in one th thleague there are numerous abusers of ftf, one hates left hand targets and will not take one unless forced to.

Why

 

Some inexperienced trap help will not call a FTF or even know what it is. So a shooter who calls it on him self is a man of honesty. So don't criticize him for doing so.

Lefty

 

The shooter did not have to call a "Failure to Fire" to get a repeat, the shooter could have called a slow or fast pull and repeated the shot without a penalty. I doubt anyone would have challenged the shooter's call. ( this happens with a few shooters and they get away with it). In my opinion this shooter was being honest by calling a Failure to Fire on himself, and no penalty would result.

 

Read the rules, you are allowed 2 failure to fire per each trap (25) targets for any reason what so ever.
Woody

 

Last night in a buddy shoot I had a Top Gun Shell w/primer set too deep and so did Darrel Dowler, we both got to shoot again FTF on shells.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

In a night of shooting buddies how many of those could you have before it was a LOST target?

Flyersarebest

 

Only 2 the third FTF IS A LOST TARGET.
wOODY

 

So the "rules" at a Buddie/Protector shoot are the same as a registered ATA shoot?

Flyersarebest

 

Unlimited by bad shells, TOP GUNS w/primers set too deep
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Flyersarebest: We do not use ATA rules, and have no problems with any targets being turn down by angles, only real fast pulls, or really slow pulls, we have hand pulled targets. Sometimes there is loud talk, and puller cannot hear.

GB DLS

 

Not exactly. I've read the rules.

 

You are correct sir.
But that is not to say the rule is not abused.
Some cheating will always exist.

 

iowa guy is absolutely correct.

Barkingspider you've overlooked the most important part of the Failure to Fire rule.



And what's this about Paragraph C. 2 ?



It's a "lost target" if the shooter voluntarily fails to fire at a legal target. Of course some shooters quickly say they had a misfire or flinch to avoid the loss. That would be cheating.

 

How do you get a FTF w/no shell in gun. This happened in the grand at Vandalia, guy next after a long delay w/broken gun,
shooter forgot to load gun, pulled up CLICK he said bad shell, opened the gun, NO SHELL, scorer called LOST. He wnet on and broke a 99

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Way back when, No shell in the gun would cost you a target.
The rule was changed a long time ago.

We may not always agree with the rules but we are expected to play by them.

While there is some cheating with this rule I don't think it is rampant.

 

Yes, or the safety on or wrong barrel selected would result in a lost target too.

 

interdell look a bit further down the page to paragraph D 1 and read closely what is stated there. Woody

 

Spider, is your recent comment directed at me? If so I know exactly what D.1. States... 'Any reason OTHER THAN STATED IN C.2. ABOVE.'

So what that all means is if you call for a target, it appears promptly, is legal and whole you must shoot at it or it will be scored lost.

 

you guys are too much for me.

 

Spidey, Why don't you explain to us how the FTF rule applies to voluntarily not firing at a legal target. I have an open mind and can be convinced to change my opinion

 

I am done with this thread.

 

The truth of the matter is that nobody challenges the shooter on a "Failure to Fire" or for that matter a Slow or a Fast Pull call. Nobody wants to become involved if a call of this type is challenged most shooter just want to shoot and do whatever else they had planned to do.

 

The rule as written now has worked well for the last number of years. IMHO
It does give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.
It keeps things moving.

It keeps a young inexperienced scorekeeper from having to handle someones prized
shotgun or making a decision they might not be trained or qualified to make.

I haven't seen the rule abused. Maybe some of you have.
For me its a non issue.

 

This forum is for us to express our opinion. I am not saying I have the solution, but I think this is an area where the rules could use a little work on clarification. IMO - the Failure to Fire Rule (FTF) is one that needs a little better clarification in the rule book. As oldphart said above, no one generally calls a shooter out on the FTF rule. I feel for those who have a flinch - at present I do not flinch but I may be in time. However, IMO, the rules as written opens the door for a quick thinking shooter to possibly see 2 free targets per sub event or 8 per 100. It is hard to possibly spot a shooter 8 targets and beat him/her - if indeed your objective is to win your class, or yardage, or event. Not saying anyone is cheating – but if you read the rules as written and the way most all scorers apply them – it is possible for a quick thinking shooter to get to see 108 targets in a 100 target event.

Rule VII, C, 2 states: (and I know this was already shown above)
VII
C. LOST TARGET
The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”:
2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the contestant voluntarily does not fire; or

Has anyone ever heard a score keeper score lost when someone did not shoot at a legal target? Maybe they have but I have never observed one do it - they give the shooter the benefitr and let the shooter call for another target. The presumption is that “it was a flinch, or bad shell, or maybe the trigger did not reset…yadda, yadda”, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt. All a shooter (if he can live with himself) has to do if he/she doesn’t like the target is to stop themselves from shooting and either say nothing and call for another target, or just say I flinched, or my trigger did not reset…… and call for another target.

What about, “ I "forgot" (a brain malfunction) my other glasses and these are the wrong color for this background and I just did not see that one right” (that is really a human malfunction just like a flinch), or, “I just wasn’t ready for that one when I called (another human malfunction just like a flinch)”.
I bet you a snowball on a hot day that not 1 in 10,000 shooters are going to say, “well heck, I just voluntarily did not shoot at that one so mark it lost for me”…… we all shoot with some that are that honest, but not many. I have actually been on a squad when a shooter told the score keeper to mark it lost as he just did not see it.

VII
D. FAILURE TO FIRE
The following procedure shall be followed in all tournaments:
1. A contestant shall be allowed two (2) failures to fire in Singles and Handicap events, for any reason other than stated in Paragraph C.,2. above, during each sub-event regardless of the length of the sub-event.

Any reason other than voluntary, IMO, that is a little vague---- we understand a shell that did not fire or one that was light and the wad did not clear the barrel, the word “flinch” is not in the book that I can see but I guess the presumption is that it is “non-voluntary” so counts as a mechanical (of the human) failure to fire. (Forgetting to put on the correct glasses because of age is not “voluntary” or a set-out-to cheat mistake, so maybe it is a valid excuse too....( man, I just forgot to change my lenses and that cloud covered the sun and it got me).... I have actually missed, and had scored loss, a few like that .... maybe I just needed to think faster and not shoot and get a re-do.

Is there a better way to word the rule? I don's know, I don’t pretend to have the answer but I have witnessed abuse as it exist, esp on the first shot in doubles. ……. If you can think and react fast enough you can look at 4 pair more than the guys shooting against you in a 50 pair event. How would a fellow shooter know if they did it to cheat - or actually has a flinch which apparently the rule allows....... a shooter on the line, or a scorer has no way to accurately know that,.

Are these problems rampant? I don’t think so – I hope not.
All this may be much a-do about nothing.

 

I CHANGED A BOX OF SHELLS, WE HAVE NOT HAD A PROBLEM W/FTF/
NOTHING SAID, HE JUST GETS ANOTHER TARGET, NO PROBLEM.

What gets me in buddy shooting, his partner is a slow shooter, and the b/u shooter does not fire, gets another target/that should be called lost.
Only some shooters will do this, others will shoot if target is still in the air.
GB DLS