Historybuff what changes should we make to handicap?

What changes need to be made? And when? I made suggestions and they fell on deaf ears, and were given bad vibes.
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

To the top

DLS

 

Doc,

I have no recommendations to offer and since I have taken a sabbatical from trap shooting the last couple years, I don't feel I have any authority to speak on the subject.

However, my personal opinion on trap shooting has changed over the years. I used to be on the side which proposes softer targets, permitting higher scores and averages, you know the old adage of "they paid for the targets, let 'em break good scores." After all, it certainly sounds sensible and in the best interests of and attracting new shooters to the sport.

After reading through the history of clay target shooting I have reversed my opinion. Now I believe that assisting shooters in making higher scores by narrowing and shortening the "flights and angles" has not provided the benefits sought. Actually, I feel it has sometimes created additional problems. I point to the host of AA scores made by shooters in the lower classes as well as the many more shoot-offs. How does the true 88 average Class D shooter feel when he has a good day, breaks a pair of 93's for a 186 only to see several 196 scores leading his class?

While shoot-offs are exciting to watch, it has caused a higher expense to clubs for targets and trap help. As a shooter, I recall a few years ago waiting till mid-night to shoot off at the Grand. It was 1 o'clock in the morning that Jimmy Heller and I walked off the field, being the last two shooters and not a person in the Grand Stands. I shall never forget that experience.

If I were in a leadership position, I would fully discuss the history of flights and angles with every State and Provincial Delegate to insure they were aware of how the sport has changed. I would then advocate reverting back to the old straightaway settings from Post 1 & Post 5. Even if they disagreed with my position, at least they would know the history. I believe if the ATA Board of Directors had known the history, they would never have agreed on reducing the level of difficulty.

I'm certainly not against many of the improvements made to the game but improvements do not go well with making the game less difficult. The game was designed to be a test of skill; a practice for bird hunters. Narrowing the targets and throwing them shorter diminishes the game's purpose.

I also have changed my view on the Grand American Handicap. I recall reading an old clipping by a shooter who opposed this event being called a "championship." In his view it was not a championship when some shooters stood closer than others. He stated that in a championship it should be the best shooter that day, with all shooters standing at the same mark. I've come to agree with his opinion.

I believe this year's Grand American will be the 110th Clay Target Championship. For 110 years shooters in this event have stood at 16 yards (except those few years that singles were shot from 18 yards). Each year shooters with the top score shoot-off to determine who is the champion. Everyone shoots from the same yardage for the championship, regardless of their Class average. Nobody kicks over shooting against the top shooters for the title and in my case, my only 200 straight was in 1994 and I don't really enter the event with the expectation of winning the CTC. I feel the same way when shooting handicap and doubles. My ability is not comparable to those who work harder and practice longer.

I support handicap events, but they should be considered just that, events with a winner, runner-up and yardage winners. As well as the handicap system is managed, it will never be perfect and it permits those with far less ability and those handicapped incorrectly, to be recognized in our records as a champion.

A true test of skill of distance shooting for determining the Grand American Championship would be everyone shooting from the same yard mark.

An example in closing: HistoryBuff is handicapped at 18 yards and Harlan at the 27. We both break the top score in the Grand American Handicap. In the shoot-off HistoryBuff breaks 25 and Harlan misses one. HistoryBuff wins the championship, gets his picture in the magazine with his trophy, wins option and added money and has his name forever listed as a GAH Champion in the record books.

Question: Who was actually the best shooter? In my view it was the shooter with the more difficult conditions. Sure, I'd be real happy for a few days. But when reality sets in, I'd know that I had the advantage of standing much closer to the targets.

 

I would like to see the old #3 hole again, and of course spread out yardage increase, i asked a AA27AA shooter and he wants challenge of 30yrd pad, less ties and more shooters will cause the average joe to stand a chance of placing.

 

Thank you Historybuff for your reply, hey we both stand on the same subject as the GAH Handicap Championship should be shot from the Max yardage, now the 27, and I feel any shooter could enter the 27 yard yard event if he or she had a hope of winning the GAH.Just pay the fees and shoot.

I agree with your complete Hypothesis, great posting, and thank you very much.
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Sorry, I can't agree. The last thing this sport needs is more 80 yo feeble and half blind trapshooters standing on the 27 yd. line breaking 50's/100. There is a reason why they're handicapped that close-lack of ability. Why would anyone try to compare Harlan (who already has accumulated thousands of unanswered yards from the 27) with someone at the 20 for years with an 80 average? Please tell all of us how much more attendance in the handicap event we should we expect with this change. Turning what is already a big sucker bet into one much larger is silly at best!

 

The vast majority of the high handicap averages in the country last year were shot from the 27. Simple math shows the majority of today's shooters carrying around an 87 average are not competitive with top shooters carrying low to mid 90's averages from the current fence. Until you're able to further handicap top shooters without penalizing already overly challenged others you'll accomplish nothing-except watching the ATA's numbers go down even more!

 

Handicap is a test... it should be hard, thats the point. Its design is to test and reward those that choose to spend time and money to chase the challenge, then you run into a 27yard wall... while i am not at the 27yard line(yet) my running mate is and he is in favor of more yardage. I am a relatively young pup here and bow to the wisdom of my elders but with the advancements in ammo and gun technology its possible to push wall further back and STILL have a fair shoot.

 

oleolliedawg,

I understand and respect your position.

I won't speak to your comment on the 80 yo shooters, except to say God Bless them. Many are exceptional shooters and I'd be honored to shoot with them anytime.

I understand and support the reason for handicapping and classifying shooters for events. Those with lesser ability (for a variety of reasons) cannot usually the post the high scores attained by the "big dogs" and are not expected to. Thus the need for winners in Class and Yardage by the handicap system. I want plenty of handicap events in the shooting game.

However, it is my belief that championship competitions should be heads up with no handicapping. May the best shot of that day win and be identified as the Champ. Anyone can enter but all must shoot from the same distance. Just like they do in the Clay Target Championship; everyone stands on the 16 mark.

If I'm incorrect in my thinking about the Grand American Championship where I believe everyone should stand at the same distance, how do we rationalize permitting everyone to stand at the same distance in the Clay Target Championship? Shouldn't there be added targets to equalize the game for those with lower singles averages?

While attendance is important . . . . the integrity of the long-time sport is of more importance to me personally. If making the sport less difficult as has been done over the many decades is solely to attract larger attendance . . . . lets just get to the finish line and throw all straightaway targets and shoot from just behind the trap house. Let's let everyone break good scores so they can feel good. But, no matter what you do, those with more ability, nerve, dedication and work to become a great shooter will always finish at or near the top.

The issue of equalizing the game by handicapping shooters dates back to the 1880's and was intensely discussed at that time just as it is today. Here's a few old comments:

How to make it equal for all men at the trap seems to be the leading question among the shooters just now.
To put a good shot back so far that the chances are against his killing a hard bird seems unfair, and yet if he shoots with a beginner it discourages a novice.
You can never make a bad shot win over a good one.
June 1890

Here's a comment from an old-time great amateur shooter from your State, Charlie MacAlester of Philadelphia :

If you want to encourage the common shots place the experts back of the club house or somewhere so they cannot continue to land first average and crack out 93 or 95 per cent.
June 1902

A New Handicap – A Plan For Trap Shooters to Examine, and One
Which Has Never Been Tried Before​

The handicapping of the expert is still a much mooted question, and every now and then a new plan is given to the trap shooters, which promises to remedy all the existing evils and place all shooters on an equal footing, according to their present shooting ability, but as soon as one of these new plans or systems is tried it is found that there is still a weak point and some objectionable features attached to them in one way or another, and the shooter with a long head will again sit down and endeavor to figure out some plan by which the much abused 60 per cent amateur can be made a winner, and the “bloated bondholder” combination of paid experts, manufacturers’ agents and professional gun sharks will not take all of their money, even if they (the experts) do make an average of 97 per cent.
Nov. 1895

And here's the article I mentioned about handicap events should not be considered championships.

 

What some fail to admit it's no longer 1890, 1932, or even 1960. We're in competition for recreational dollars from way more venues. Trapshooting has evolved into more a social event while Sporting Clays ate our lunch. Dedication in most sports is lacking and trapshooting is near the bottom. We can only hope that by making the handicap event more exciting and profitable the segment that found it attractive will return. Simply adding more classes and awards will only increase shooting costs-like skeet. Forcing recreational shooters to attempt to compete with top All-Americans from the current fence would likely reduce entries substantially.

Do a re-think on that one!

 

Kenny,

Glad to see your view on this. I have always felt the CTC was the more prestigious trophy.

 

While I agree with much of what you your post my, position remains unchanged. I never said do away with handicaps or any other events. Hold a Grand American Handicap event, just don't view it as a Championship.

Again, I fail to see why in the Clay Target Championship and Doubles Championship its acceptable for all shooters to stand at one yardage (competing "heads up") but its not acceptable in the Championship at yardage distance.

I wish for a huge membership and attendance as well, but the majority of ATA members will never attend the Grand American so it will have little affect as a whole.

Had the managers of our governing bodies over the past 100 years thought more along the attendance lines instead of just trapshooting, they would have continued with the novelty events and today both skeet and sporting clays would be under the auspices of the ATA. These novelty events at trapshooting tournaments are what led to the game of skeet and sporting clays in my opinion. I've already mentioned how some were paying attention and holding "quail walks" at tournaments in the 1880's and the "Joker Trap" events at the Grand American Handicaps in the early 1900's and even ATA President George McCarty attempting to put a "grouse event" in the program for the 1922 Grand.

Like all sports . . . . . competition is supposed to be a test of skill and nerve and may the best competitor win the championship (heads up).

 

Bat,

In my opinion the more (most) prestigious trophies are the High-Over-All and High-All-Around. The CTC and Doubles championships are also prestigious.

 

I have this to say: When Paul Butterbaugh owned Airport Gun Club, he always set targets to the stake and straightaways from posts #1 and #5, there were no exceptionally high scores, only a few, then one step further I used to shoot trap mostly calcuttas at Pike County Coonhunters near Jasper, Ohio it was commonly known as Yankee Hill, we shot tougher targets than straightaways from posts @1 and #5, at one time they had 7 $200 jackpots on the wall, I did win one of them and a friend who has passed away, Don Fritch won one, Danny Keaton, Roger McNamer, and Larry Smith, won their share, when we shooters from Yankee Hill went to the Missouri Fall Handicap, we won a fair share of the events in all categories, Why? Because we shot the harder targets every week, and those Yankee Hill boys took home the Bacon, One well known shooter Frank Kappner won the Missouri Handicap Outright and bought himself in the Calcutta, he was a regular shooter at Yankee Hill, he also used a electronic push button caller attached to the forearm of his Ljutic, as he lost his voice box to surgery. When you shoot those hard targets every week you become very good at them. Louie Morgan was another regular at Yankee Hill and took some jackpots

Yankee Hill had shooters coming from Kentucky and West Virgina to try for the money.

Did the Yankee Hill shooters have an advantage? Yes they shot tougher targets every week, where the western shooters were supposedly shooting narrower targets.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Kenny,

I can see that also, but I'll stick with the CTC. Everybody is toe to toe and in reality a much larger pool of competition than is present in the HAA or HOA. I see the HAA and HOA as probably meaning more to the very best shooters, since they are all in it. We can all have different wishes, but the CTC is what I'd want.

Trapshooting is odd in the aspect that a handicapped event has received such prestige. Maybe its true in other sports as well, but it seems to me in most I can think of, a handicapped event is not thought of as the most important event. It is more important from a betting standpoint, but not from a competition standpoint.

 

The CTC has turned into more than shooting ability ... I was in Sparta the year there was no winner.

The best shooter of the day is one thing ... but everything has limits.

 

Those are the prestigious trophies.

Prior to the targets being narrowed, and the shell changes destroyed our handicap system, the most prestigious shoot in the land was the Grand American Handicap. We weren't happy with the destruction of the event and moved it to a gun hate state. That was the wooden stake.

Last year we had more than 1600 shooters in an event that at one time had 5,000. Prestige at an ATA event? Don't let our leaders know we have such a thing. They may have more wooden stakes.

 

GUYS & GALS,
No mater how you slice and dice the handicap system. The only way to make it more even for all yardages and to equalize the shooters abilities is to add yardage. Neil's B.S. about modern guns and ammo being maxed out at 27 yds. is just that bull sxxt.
Any change to the pay load of shells will affect the shooters with less ability more than it will the (TOP DOGS) I prefer to call them the more astute shooters. Roger C.

 

I would agree that the HOA and the HAA should offer the most prestige to the competitor but not all can compete at this level for all 3 events, that's what makes the individual event championships all the more acceptable for all competitors. I doubt that the ATA will eliminate the name championship from any of these events.

 

oldphart'
You are correct the HOA and HAA are at the top of the scale for most shooters. Any one can get lucky and win one championship but ligthening is not going to strike that many times in one place. Those are the most coveted trophies you can win.

 

So, I'm thinking..... If you want to be the GAH champ, you shoot for it from the 27. If you don't shoot from the 27, you are shooting for a yardage or CAT prize.

 

Last registered shoot i shot the top 3 handicap scores where inside 22 yard line. And i know of guys that have turned down yardage increases to stay close, i i think it should be mandatory increase, no turned down yardage, next review if it needs to be reduced THEN it gets reduced.

 

I didn't think you could turn down a yardage increase.

 

Right, that's like a punch and back you go.

 

A true test of skill of distance shooting for determining the Grand American Championship would be everyone shooting from the same yard mark.

As said by History Buff....I agree !

There could always be awards for Yardage, etc. but the "True Test" is for those who sign up and compete from the same yardage for the GAH award.

My 2 cents

Dave

 

The "Grand American Handicap" ..... "Handicap" as in ALL handicap ..... not a 27-yard Championship. If you change the game, change the name.

The past idea was it should be up for ANYONE to win ..... NOT just the best under-handicapped, or best rule-bender, that have an advantage on others that are dumb-enough to drink the Kool-Aid and hope for a win, by those with the advantage losing.

 

I though yardage group, category and runner up trophy's already has some of the same kinds of trophies won in our other games, 16s and dbls with class/category awards?

Maybe we need a long range championship event? We could begin that one at 30 yards and adjust accordingly? Open to anyone with the fees and guts?

In my opinion, any future change shouldn't destroy our games historical chain of events for winners at our Grand. Nor should we allow making the game totally impossible to break all the properly pointed targets either!

HAP

 

It takes a lot of money to shoot the whole program+ shells, motel, meals etc for the week!!
DLS

 

Ollie it is not about old geezers on the 27, some refused yardage reductions, but for fairness anyone who wants to shoot for the GRAND AMERICAN HANDICAP, pay the entry fee and shoot, it's his money, his chance to break the highest score in the GAH and get in a shoot off, he could also shoot his yardage and try for yardage championship. You do not want to count out too many of those old geezers on their ability.

But having an 18 yard shooter win the GAH and be 9 yards closer to the target is a poor comparasion.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

We have since conception allowed all yardage shooters to compete for the Grand American "CHAMPIONSHIP". If the rules are followed and all shooters are handicapped correctly I would not want to see this changed or eliminated. There will always be what is termed "Sandbaggers" but if all shooters are diligent and police ourselves we could eliminate most of this.

If we were to shoot the targets as indicated in the Rule Book prior to 1995-96 it would be more equal than it is today. ( 50 yd, 22 degrees each side of centre or a straight away from positions 1 and 5)

 

Even though we may not agree with certain rules, they are after all, the RULES! Once we begin violating a rule it can lead to all sorts of problems once it's an accepted and adopted practice. (Shells, angles, distance targets are thrown which is dictated by target speed, height for target setting) all play a vital role in our game. The most accepted form of rule bending I see today is the height setting. Seems it's whatever the shooters want as a personal preference and clubs will yo-yo them in any direction. Mostly on the high side. A clear rule violation that's accepted willy-nilly across the country. Why have a rule if it's not going to be enforced within the confines of the stated rule?

Members should do a much better job of learning what's in our rule book and make it a priority to see that it's followed to a "T"! If you don't like a certain rule, take the necessary steps in getting it amended.

oldphart, why should we believe such a rule today would be followed and or enforced any better than when it was the RULE? Members should know the rules and demand our leadership not only enforce them as written but abide by the rules themselves! It's a proven fact our leadership has intentionally violated our rules, more then once! Where does that leave the rest of the membership concerning our own rulebook? Confused and unknowing are two words that come to mind?

HAP

 

Would your idea result in more entries-how?

 

Why stop at handicap.

No singles or doubles champion unless you are a AAA shooter and the rest are for class only! No categories either! Categories are nothing but people looking for welfare trophies.

Well hell, why we are at it lets get rid of the women and children, after all thats why we go to shoots isn't it?

Lets get back to shirts, ties and wing tip shoes, that will bring em back and put some money back in the game also!

 

Nobody is suggesting that we change how the Grand American Handicap Championship has been shot since 1900. I only stated that I thought an old article regarding what a real "Championship" should be, seemed to have merit.

The other point I made was that in the GAH Singles and Doubles Championship events all shooters regardless of Class, stand at the same distance. Nobody has an advantage except those with superior ability and/or those who work the hardest to consistently break high scores.

Of course at one time there were the so-called professionals or shooting representatives who shot more than others because it was their job and they were provided shells from the manufacturer.

Shouldn't there be a championship long-distance event where everyone stands at the same distance. Let the best shooter win and be very proud of their trophy.

 

I would have been interested in that before we started the 3 1/4 dram shell crap. Certainly you have a competitive advantage with those bangers. You have to buy an expensive stock to tolerate them. Not for me.

I know who to blame. Just don't care enough to do that.

Change all the shells back to 1200 fps and I would be interested.

 

Why should Trapshooting Grand American Championship, be won at any yardage other than the 27, In horse racing you don't spot a hose a length or two, it's all heads up.

Automobile racing and nascar it is the first one across the line after 500 laps,

In the grudge match at Cardinal should I have given Big Don a 5 target spot?

To be the best in Handicap, it has to be done at the maximum yardage, where targets are hardest to hit them all or as many as you can. Any other yardage is just a yardage win in my opinion.

It is the best of the best shoot, the master of target trapshooting IMHO.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Are you capable of reading your own posts?

Handicapping is giving someone a handicap. You need to re-write that. Does not make sense.

 

Would it not be nice for this event to be shot in front of the Grand Stands over the same traps.Where evry one interested could watch, that way everyone entered shot on the very same 4 traps, I do not believe there would be that many shooters to make it prohibitive.

My guess maybe 30 squads, a mandatory entry fee to be determined, possibly $75.00 + fees.Winner gets 60% runner up 40%.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I am also capable of writing my own posts too. Only a serious trapshooter would enter this event, that has what he believes is the ability to win, from the 27 yard max.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

There is no sand bagging from the 27, it is an all out shooting event.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Doc

Who mentioned sandbagging. You mentioned the handicap event should be shot at the 27. Please explain how a handicap event can be shot a the 27.

You did write that did you not?

 

I'd love to see and partake of a long yardage event where everyone shoots from the same line, not from where Harlan is most comfortable though. Should start at the 30 and progress back from there depending on scores should make a fine competitive event. That's using todays rules and settings of course.


dr.longshot said: ↑
"To be the best in Handicap, it has to be done at the maximum yardage,"

Don't we already know who's best at the 27 in todays shoots? There's a lot of quality shooters standing at the 27 capable of winning from there on any given day. What short or mid range shooter would be foolish enough to put his money on the line to compete with that bunch? "0" is my best guess.

I'd think a contest from yardage no one is comfortable with at first would determine who's best at long range shooting? I'd play.

HAP

 

Hap, wouldn't you get the same 27 yard shooters as Dr Longshot. I would think 30 or longer would scare the short yardage shooters away just as easily.

 

Read my reply, I did write that, and specified why I wrote it.

Shot over 4 traps in front of grandstands at the Grand. I personally feel those traps be all set to the same specs, 50-52 yd targets, angles to be 44 degree, 22 degrees left and right of center.

The best of the best will prevail, even an 18 yard shooter from Kentucky shooting from the 27 yard line could win, if he has the Balls, and money for the shoot.

Who profits from the expierence? The ATA and the winner. National Fame for Both.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I know which group my money would be on if such a shoot took place. 5 more degrees of angle and a couple more yards of distance! If many of the top 27 yard shooters participated, the rest of us would remain wannabees foolish enough to put our money on that line! After all, they are very familiar and comfortable with targets thrown from there and they are very good! It's their comfort zone for heavens sakes!

30 yards may be just enough to keep many out of their comfort zone because it's a foreign land to them!

The primary reason 44 degree angles worked for so long is attributed the type of traps used at the time and competing year round in all sorts of windy weather, not just one event! More extreme angles out of a 100 target event ring a bell?

HAP

 

Olliedawg: Did you read the thread completely? Historybuff: Said the GAH should be shot from the max yardage, all standing on the same yardage, those that shoot 26-25-24-23-22-21=20 will only win yardage and runnerup trophy.

If anyone including an 80 yr old fart wants to gamble from the 27 it is his decision, his money, or he could shoot from his 18yd line or what ever for yardage trophy.

As Historybuff stated there were complaints in early years of shooters standing closer to the traphouse.

I agree that every shooter should stand on the same yardage line for the ULTIMATE championship, all othrs would be yardage winners.

This I feel in my humble opinion is the only fair way to win the COVETED CHAMPIONSHIP "GRAND AMERICAN HANDICAP CHAMPIONSHIP"

No sandbaggers or missed target analsys. no way to cheat the system.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Doc
Are you getting senile? Do you not know what you wrote again? I copied and pasted for you. Please read it.

Now doc that you have had the chance to read what you wrote please tell me what the difference is between a handicap shoot and a non handicap shoot. You just said the handicap event should be shot at the same yardage. Maybe you do not understand trapshooting. Or is it the word handicap that confuses you?

You tell me doc.

 

I have been corrected in my terminology of Handicap Event.

I need to call it something else, Help me out here, if the Ultimate yardage is the 27
and the best shooters want to win the coveted Maximum Yardage Event what would you call it?

This event is open to all yardage hdcp shooters, but you have to stand on the 27 yard line, to participate in it, Pay a Mandatory fee, to become the best of the best

The category we have today is GAH, we have seen sandbaggers, wrongly classified shooters and many other things unfair.

Should we call it Grand American Championship? Where do we separate the Singles and Doubles, from that terminology.

Help me here naming it. I need your help so everyone Knows it is a shoot of the very best from the 27 yard line! The Maximum Yardage.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

+1

 

+1 ? What does this mean?

GB DLS

 

+1 means he agrees with the statement. Same as me too. I agree. etc.
user 214 agrees with user 1

 

MEC8: You must not be an ATA shooter, I find you very insulting.
GB DLS

 

I am asking for help in naming the game, anyone interested in giving it an name?

GB DLS

 

MEC8: What was all the Hulabaloo about the Last Grands Handicap Winner?
Was sandbagging mentioned? Cheating Mentioned? Wrong Classification mentioned? False Registering of targets?

You are new so you would not have read all the posts about 2014 Grand American Handicap Winner.

GB DLS

 

Hap: I was not talking about using todays target settings.
Those 4 traps would be set at 44 degree angles, and 50-52 yard targets.
Those 4 traps would be in front of the GRANDSTANDS AT SPARTA GRAND
We will all see if the present 27 yard shooters are competitive on those angles as they are on present day target settings.

Plus this would help back-up Neil Winstons test he wants.

GB DLS

 

HAP & OTHERS NOTE HISTORY BUFF: Shouldn't there be a Championship long distance event where everyone stands at the same distance let the best shooter win and be very proud of their trophy.

Read his last paragraph.
That is the purpose of my thread.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

320090T: Do I have your support on my thread?
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Neil

GB, is this the test you thought Neil W. wanted? If so, it doesn't resemble the one you pose above.

As for reading HB's writings and posts, I've more than likely read as much as anyone else, possibly even more and I truly appreciate him sharing all of it with us!

HAP

 

I have read all the posts. You do not have to be a member to read the posts. How could you not know that?
I never mentioned sandbagging or any of those things. What are you jabbering about?

The only thing I mentioned is the following:
You cannot shoot from the the same distance and call the shoot a handicap event. How can a lucid person not understand that?

 

History Buff never said that we should have a handicap event where all shooters compete from the same yardage.

 

Who would care what test Neil wants? His game plan removed the sport from trapshooting. Yet after the fact he had nothing to do with it although he accepted a lifetime achievement award for the same.

He still hasn't answered the question as to whether his work had the results he intended. I don't suppose we will hear the answer.

 

Hap: Not directly, it would give proof if there needs to be a 30 yard Handicap.
We haven't shot a competitive target in years, My suggestion puts 44 degree angle, and 50-52 yard targets on the table, then we would see if we need the 30 yard increase,

GB DLS

 

Hap: The present 27 yard masters have not been shooting a COMPETETIVE target.
We would see what COMPETETIVE target results would be!!

 

I'm not speaking for the Dr. but you got me thinking about the difference in the three events. Singles, doubles, and caps.

It is called "singles" because we only shoot at one target. I guess they could have named it "Close Singles". In "caps" we still only shoot at one target but we shoot farther away from that 16 yard "base" line. There again, "Far Singles"? That wouldn't work.

The "handicap"( IMO) is the distance away from that "base line". It is determined by how well you shoot. The better shot you become the farther away you stand. Probably a better way than "spotting" someone a number of targets before the event starts. Like in golf. You have a 6 handicap in Trap? Break 92 targets and your score is recorded as a 98. WAY too confusing. Make shooters move back to "handicap" them. WAY better system to understand and execute.

It was supposed to make it a " level playing field" for everyone. ( How people work the system is a whole other story for a different thread). In theory everyone has the same chance.

Now, after all that typing, I guess I could have just asked the question,

IF, and this has probably never happened, there is a shoot and the "handicap" event has only say, 10 or 15 shooters, and they are all on the same yard line, is it really a "handicap"
event? I would say yes since they are all 'handicapped" by being farther away from the 16 yard line where "singles" are shot.

Again, not speaking for the Doc but I knew what he meant. After all the years shooting singles, doubles, and handicap, any event that had only one target involved and wasn't shot from the 16 was called a "Handicap" event.

So, if all the shooters were on the same yard line other than the 16, doesn't matter what that is, even if all were on the 27, it is still a "handicap" event. IMO

Flyersarebest

 

Since we're on the discussion of long-distance shooting (handicap events & 30 yards) I should point out that during the Grand American Handicaps at Live Birds , shooters were handicapped from 26 - 33 yards. That was prior to the first GAH at Clay Targets in 1900. And, that was before all the innovations and improvements to guns, ammunition, targets, etc.

And in some live-bird matches were staged at 34 yards. Bogardus, Elliott, Brewer and Dr. Carver were all long-distance shooters and most, if not all of them killed 100 pigeons straight.

 

Even prior to the official rule change in 96, we should have had an increase in yardage around the late 70s or early 80s! Why? Because of the number of perfect scores (100) shot from our max yardage! If our leadership followed historical protocol as they did in the past, at least 2 more yards should have been added back then!

Going back today to those same settings wouldn't solve much at all except it may lower averages and high scores somewhat. At least back to what it was prior to the cheating era, possibly?

With todays ammunition and improved guns, mixed with dedicated shooters, 30 yards would be merely a new beginning in stretching that ability! As Kenny points out above, the old pros could kill pigeons from 34 yards!! That, with inferior ammo to what's available to us today in terms of hard shot and all plastic wads!

Today, a 30 yard max, tomorrow may say we need a more difficult angle and more speed to find a true max line for the gifted ones. Going back to what once was is a waste of time and money in an attempt of further handicapping those deemed to have mastered the max. We already know those results. In that goal, we shouldn't ever make it impossible to break all the targets! Pointing ability is the shooter, distance is the quality of the ammo and the shotgun.

HAP

 

Hap & Mec8: Since Flyersarebest: Understands where I was coming from, the ONLY TRUE WAY TO SEE IF WE NEED 30 YARDS is shoot some competitive targets from the existing 27
yard line. Like I said earlier 4 traps at Sparta if it is still open, in front of the GRAND STANDS, Targets set 44 degree angles, 50-52 yard distance, Target Height set at 11 1/2 feet 44-48 Mph
My spec. here.

This event is open to anyone, who pays a fee of $75.00 + Fees
Event Pays 60% to High Score/ 40% to second Hi Score, ties divide.

This will tell if 30 yards are needed, I do not believe we will need to have a 30 yard line under these conditions, I personally believe some of those existing 27 yard shooters will be scratching their heads, have disgusting gestures on their misses, because they cannot break them all.

MEC8: This is a true Handicap event, shooting real targets, Competetive targets.

That should have been thrown years ago.

Gary Bryant (The Senile Shooter) Dr.longshot

 

I was in Vernal. They have the thirty yard line on all fields. I went to the practice trap and shot one round from the thirty yard line using WW super handicap seven and one half loads. I also used the number two choke tube on a K eighty. Al targets were crushed no bad hits. I guess my gun does not know it is maxed out at twenty seven yards. Roger C.

 

Roger, in Vernal, it probably wasn't maxed out, obviously from the 27, at least. Look what the people around you were shooting from long yardage! You were there; you must have noticed the difference.

Why don't any of you get that? At most ATA clubs, guns are about maxed out at the 27. At clubs about a mile high above sea level, with the reduced air density (air pressure drops about an inch for every 1000 feet of elevation increase) they shoot a lot better. A lot better. Proof to follow in a couple of days; I have better things to do right now.

N1H1

 

I couldn't help noticing, Roger, that in the five handicap events you shot you averaged about 90, which makes hitting them all from the 30, frankly, hard to accept.

N1H1

 

Having just gone through the winners of the championship handicap events in PA at the last two shoots a blind man can see some obvious trends. Most events were won by 27 yd. shooters with scores of 98 and 99. Does anyone know the air density or elevation in PA that can produce such high winning scores from the back fence? Is there still an invisible wall in PA (known for some of the toughest shooting conditions) at the 27? Is it possible those quite capable back fencers just might have missed one or did it fly through their pattern?

How could it be possible for Deb Ohye to break 100 from the fence using 1oz. loads. There simply isn't enough shot there for that to happen according to some. Move 'em back!

 

Oh Boy more un-supported graphs are coming.

GB DLS

 

Neil, It is not important to me if you believe what I did from the thirty yard line. I do not take it lightly with you inferring that I am a liar. Some people have a problem with the truth, I am not one of them.

I did. Not notice the targets being easier because of the elevation, I this fact or theory? Roger Coveleskie

 

Roger..... In Neil's college Calculus IV class book, advanced edition, just for smart folks, on page 2673, chapter 98, paragraph 37, it clearly states trap targets shot at higher elevations are much easier to shoot, and break, than those shot anywhere else in the world, and that is supported by the following graphs on pages 2674 through 2913.....

 

i aint da smartest guy in da world but im still lookin for dat page. can some body help me"

 

It is time to go to the 29 yard line for all State Championships, All Satellite Grand's, and The Grand.
They need to phase in 1200 fps average velocity for all loads i.e. 1 1/8, 1, 3/4 etc should have a maximum average velocity of 12000 fps
This post is just to throw my hat into the pissing contest details to follow.

 

Phil
Thanks for going on the record it can only help.
I know that is basically what you presented to the BOD years back before you were even elected.

Any support for that among the other Delegates in the western Zone?
Do you think it will be discussed at this years meetings?

Thanks for stepping up and representing Wyoming.

 

What about Target Angles and Distance?

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot