If Sparta closes

If Sparta closes will the grand simply cease to exist. Will it be like a book and the ATA move on to another chapter?

 

It would be a poorly managed book.

 

The funding of the IDNR is in jeprody, Illinois is cutting back on all un-needed expenses, it has been in the news these last few weeks. It will be a large undertaking for the ATA.

DLS

 

Somehow I don't believe the ATA will ever leave that facility. Someone (even the ATA) will, in my opinion, pick the place up for pennies on the dollar from the State (if they decide to rid themselves of the place), and continue the operation.

Would you think that the Trapshooting Hall of Fame, and the ATA would sink over a million dollars into a new museum building if there weren't a PLAN "B" in place ???

Just my own thoughts...

Dave

 

That is a lot of money to pay to get into the HOF.

 

Brad'sFriend I Hope: I don't think that Sparta Closing was on or in the ATA's mindset. We will know more after Illinois State Budget is passed. That will be soon. Then we will see.
GB DLS

 

If the State of Illinois did come to the conclusion that the WSRC had to be closed, I seriously doubt the ATA would be able to afford taking it over ... The State can afford to lose money on a yearly basis where as the ATA cannot and continue to exist, not to mention turning even more of the membership against them and the way they operate ... The absolute best thing that can happen is the State keep the WSRC operational for the ATA to be able to host shoots there even with the decline in numbers ... The ATA set the standard and the shooters are making them pay for it by not attending and fortifying the income off of the same ... If the ATA depended on the income from the WSRC, they would of been closed up already ... The clubs all across America, Canada, and any place else are the supporters the ATA with the collection of the daily fees and and in bringing in new members ... The sooner the ATA understands and realizes where their real support comes from the better because it is not from the Grand in Sparta at the WSRC ... The Biggest Little Shoot in the World ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The million did not come out of their pocket. It was donated by the Martins who are now in the HOF. I doubt if the HOF building cost half that amount.

I read they had a building, property, right of way and all that crap offered somewhere else.

I could really care less about a HOF building. Keep it in a closed park. Serves them right.

 

Read what I found out while searching for IDNR Budget for Sparta WSC.

It is absolutely un-believable. Stolen Money, IDNR sex parties, WSC Employee fired for not stripping.

GB DLS

 

That word doesn't mean what it used to. It already ceases to exist.

 

A closure of Sparta by the State of Illinois would become a great inconvenience for the ATA while not disasterous as noted above the revenue from the associated clubs would continue but the preceived ultimate end of season shoot looked forward to by many shooters would have to look for a new home as I believe the ATA could not afford to continue to operate the Sparta facility and remain viabile.

 

I know a buyer for the traps.

 

It would be a devastating inconvenience.

The membership would be in total doubt and confusion, and the ATA would have to remove their traps, find storage, labor, and maintenance/ security till a site was located.
The EC/BOD may even be dismantled by the memebership.

 

Rosey

I cant remember disagreeing with you often but the EC/BOD should have been dismantled as soon as the GAH reached less than 3,000.

If there was a microscopic shred of dignity the EC / BOD , recycled vice presidents and their cronies would have all resigned years ago. How long do you think any of this crew would have survived at a board meeting in front of the shareholders?

The only good thing....we don't get kicked off a forum now for stating the obvious. I am betting I can post in the morning.

 

Fewer care today than yesterday. Fewer will shoot there this year than last year. The big shoots will always be nearest the shooters.

 

The "ATA" can not manage their own shoot format .... like their handicap and class systems. It has been less than a year that their GAH was proof of this.

And ... these same people are going to manage a loser like Sparta/WSC in to black-ink ... not in the real world.

 

It's actually not much different than what happened at Vandalia.

The ATA did not control their property, or their future. The Dayton Airport and politicians determined the property was of more value to their potential expansion and they controlled it.

I realise the ATA may have taken what they considered the "best offer" from the State of Illinois, but those EC/BOD members that wasted all that time and failed to secur property that the ATA could actually own should be kicked in the ass!

If I remember right, the Airport Commission gave us 4-5 years notice.

Once again, we are on the chopping block at the whim of politicians.

 

Republican gov in a demo state, he's just blowing off to satisfy the folks that elected him. It's all politics .......I hope.

 

It was known and spoken of in the 70s that we'd eventually have to move from Vandalia because of area growth.

The real question then becomes; why did we wait till the last minute to facilitate moving our Grand American tradition? A lack of leadership foresight or skin?

HAP

 

Hap

1. There were other sites available.
2. I believe we could have stayed where we were.
3. They were throwing registered targets at the Cardinal Center before Sparta.

The move away from Ohio was a grab. It does not matter now. The heartland of trapshooting has 4 huge shoots. PA State Shoot, OH State Shoot, Buckeye Classic and the Cardinal Classic. Soon all 4 will be bigger than Sparta.

It is time to kick everyone of the EC/ BOD, recycled VP's out of office. If we cannot do that then we have to leave them. 70% of our members have voted with their feet. Somehow these critters have to be removed.

Those officers with any credibility should have resigned long ago. That shows what we are up against.

 

The names of those that have put our sport where it is need to be memorialized on the lawn of the HOF. The signature on the memorial needs to say. Yours in sport.

 

Come on FG. 1. What other sites TX, NV or IN. Tx & Nv are to far, all your heartland shooters wouldn't go that far, IN was 2 stacked lines and nobody wanted that. By the way how come you don't discuss the deal that the OSTA and Middletown had to hold the State shoot there. Only a last minute glitch in the contract allowed the OSTA to back out and go to the incomplete CC.
2. What part of get the hell out of town don't you understand. The airport wanted us gone.
3. How many fields. How many years for CC? This is Sparta's 10th. Get real there is no way they could have even come close to hosting the Grand, not then and not now.

Bash them all you want but don't distort or imply the facts are different then what they are.

Lefty

 

Lefty,
You probably would not know as you are not from OH. Either way there were 3 sites in Ohio. For not pushing those sites Tom Acklin got a gun. Yeppers.....a very nice gun!

There was no get out of town mandate. During negotiations over the expired lease the airport made it clear that they would use the land for other things. But again no mandate.

Lefty, again your hatred for anything OH or CC keeps you from getting the facts. The Cardinal Center was throwing registered targets before Sparta. If you doubt that we could make a large wager. It could be a wager large enough to remind you to get a few facts first. One that would be painful. One that would keep you from making stupid uneducated statements. You tell me Lefty. How large a wager would it take remind you?

In the past Vandalia held the grand with fewer or less traps than are at the CC. How many banks do you think Sparta will need this year. Maybe another wager. A wager big enough to hurt again.

Don't get me wrong Lefty. The Cardinal Center does not need the shoot in Sparta. The name means nothing now. I am not lobbying for that. Three of the top five shoots are held there. I would expect next year 3 of the Cardinal shoots will be larger than the one in Sparta.

 

Lefty....
Impatiently waiting for your response on your wager as to who threw registered targets first? The CC or Sparta.

 

The first registered shoot at the Cardinal Center was a muddy week. I would think someone on the forum has the group picture.

 

The first shoot in Sparta was the US Open, a shake down for the Grand. When was the first shoot at CC? Was there a Buckeye or was the state shoot the first shoot there?

 

This from July 10, 2006 press release from the father of Sparta and felon Rod Blagojevich.

Governor Rod R. Blagojevich joined by state and local officials, business leaders and sportsmen from across the nation, opened the long-anticipated World Shooting and Recreational Complex (WSRC) in Sparta. The newly constructed, state-of-the-art facility will become an economic boon for Southwestern Illinois, bringing more than 250 new jobs to the region, and hundreds of thousands of visitors to the state.
The Sparta World Shooting and Recreational Complex is hosting the first ever U.S. Open Trapshooting Championships starting today.

This was after the Ohio State Shoot.

 

The shoot is small enough now that it can be held in many locations.

 

FG - I really wish you would work on your reading comprehension. Where did I say who threw targets first? I asked a couple of questions you failed to answer, no need to repeat. Acklin must of had the gun buried with him. No reason to try and discuss anything with you because you will continue to accuse me of being anti Ohio and CC, again another of your falsehoods. I guess it's your site and you can accuse anyone who questions you or has a difference of opinion.

You might like to know or maybe not but most of the Ohio shooters I know or run into think you are one big joke.

Lefty

 

Lefty
My comprehension is fine. When I said the CC was throwing targets before Sparta you responded with another of your smart ass proving you are a dumb ass comments.

Good thing someone gave you the heads up on that bet. It is the CC's 10th also plus 1 month more.

And then again you went further by implying the CC was not ready by saying :

Your words lefty...not mine. You compound your stupid comments again implying the CC cant hold a shoot nearly as large as the grand and could not hold one now.

Don't leave angry. Feel free to drop by with your I hate everyone in OH or the CC. I understand your bitterness.

Drop by again for the personal attacks or go back to your pals and let them know you lost the argument but hurt my feelings.

We can still be friends....right?

 

Lefty
Did you think these guys could not comprehend your statement? You challenged the statement that the CC was throwing registered targets first by saying:

Next time take the bet. You could have learnt something.

As far as which place has the most traps. Sparta has the most. Illinois owns the trap houses.

I do enjoy shooting at Sparta.

 

Lefty

Did you get a barrel decal or shirt?

 

Lefty

I don't think I ever bumped into you.

 

The ATA does not need or have they ever needed the total number of traps to host the Grand American based strickly on the numbers ... If someone would figure out how many they need and then have that and a few extra ready in case of a major break down they could cut the cost of operations considerably ... The WSRC gets $3.00 per entry, so they could cut their cost by having 60 traps ready instead of 100 up and running and probably still get the days events done ... The number just do not add up based on whats been happening to the attendance the last 10 years ... If the shoot were properly run and managed I bet they could get the same results with the number of traps they have at Cardinal Center ... The ATA does not have any bargaining power or creditability left so they would probably have to sit back and watch how its supposed to be done ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I believe it was 1974 the Grand was held in Vandalia on 48 traps with nearly twice the people at the grand last year.

I am not saying the shoot should be held in Marengo. Not sure they need it. Mr. Fishburn has done too much for trapshooting already.

The shoot has been beaten down so much since it's move that a number of venues could be used provided the event does not grow.

 

I would wonder if the folks at Cardinal Center would even want to host the shoot if it was or became available ... They seem to be doing quite well on their own without all of the additional demands and expenses that come from the ATA when hosting such a shoot ... I have Cardinal Center on my bucket list, the WSRC is on it also, but just to drop in and see who's there and visit with a few friends ... Its not all that far from the Lake of the Ozarks so it will more or less be on the way ... Most people are not aware of all of the hoops the ATA makes clubs jump through when hosting a bigger shoot or the additional expenses for trophy's and travel for the Fat Cats, not to mention set ups (adult refreshments) and finger food they expect so they can get away from the very people they are supposed to represent ... I did not make any friends when I told them to shove it, thats for sure and if looks could of killed, well let me tell you ... (Thats for another thread) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

FG - you have been enough fun for today. I have to start getting ready for Ohio State shoot held at the CC both of which you claim I hate. You're such a joke. You know CC the place you and your back patting friends don't support because they throw those dreaded ATA targets. Thanks for allowing me and other shooters(in the 100's) to support, financially, Mr. Fishburn in his successful endeavor. I don't think he misses you and your friends.

Onward and upward, have a nice day as I know I will.

Lefty

 

FG is correct. They did throw targets before Sparta. They did have the Ohio State Shoot at Cardinal the same year that Sparta started throwing targets.
One nice thing CC has going for it is that all of the registered shoots they have held there since the day it started throwing targets have been All American point Shoots.
Not too many clubs can say that!

 

Lefty
Gee Lefty, another one of those oops did I say that moments for you. You promptly respond by saying how much you support the CC. But you forgot your slightly non-supportive hateful statement.

Another one of your ah crap....you gonna quote me again moments.

What a great quote......

Put that on the shingle outside.

Thanks for the support. Glad we are still friends.

 

This is getting easier for the ATA to make their first smart move ever.

With $12,000,000 in the bank it's time to approach Cardinal Center with an offer to expand (they already own plenty of traps) and sign a long term contract to hold the Grand there. 20 more trap houses should be able to accommodate any Grand and and the area infrastructure is already in place. A win/win for all!

 

oleolliedawg:

Please explain to me what the advantages would be for the Cardinal Center to want to hold the Grand. They are a successful
cub now.

Ron Burdick

 

FG - Let me ask how that quote is non-complimentary? Fact could the CC in 2006 have hosted a shoot of 2500 shooters - NO. Fact could the CC in 2014 have hosted a shoot of 2000 shooters - NO. Why are the facts non-complimentary ? They are what they are. Get over it.

Lefty

 

As in any successful business he who fails to expand or grasp additional options often regrets those missed opportunities!!

 

Substantially increased attendance would likely be expected if the Grand was held in Ohio. 20 additional traps would definitely be needed!

 

1600

 

Lefty
You fail to grasp the silliness of your quotes. The clues are all there but somehow the obvious escapes you. The facility then and now is capable of holding far more than 200o in a day. I will repost something posted earlier but escaped you.

Oh no....another one of those did Lefty say that moments. Yes you did....again.

Despite that you continued with your hateful rant.

Ollie does make a good point tho.

Ollie May be right but I am not sure the owner of the Cardinal Center wants the Grand.

 

We've already handled a typical Sparta attendance in PA over 48 traps!

 

Interesting that you do not see a forum full of Ohioans beating the drums for the return of their once beloved shoot.

 

RJ Stuart

2003 Ohio State shoot Championship shooters: 1600 singles, 1400 handicap, 789 doubles

2011: 1,242 singles, 1061 handicap, 614 doubles

2014: 1,102 singles, 1002 handicap, 645 doubles

Could Cardinal handle 1,600 shooters (50% increase) on their current set up? Yes, possibly on the Singles Championship day, but it would be a late afternoon completion. It would really get late on 3 event days, or when doubles change over is required, and shoot offs must be over by 10:00.

The CE building isn't large enough to handle classification and squadding either!

 

You all are forgetting one important point. If CC were asked and they agreed to have the grand at their facility, Jack has the resources to make CC a more than adequate facility to hold the Grand. last I heard he really has no interest in having the grand at his facility so I think this is all a moot point about CC and them holding the grand.

 

Minds change and smart businessmen seek opportunities!

 

Hi all,

My son and I are new to trap shooting as of last year, live and shoot near Vandalia, and have started shooting at the Cardinal Center. The feedback us "newbies" hear about the Grand in Sparta are fairly mixed and most of what we hear is about how to handle the heat vs. opinions regarding geography. Positive discussion about the existing Cardinal shoots are common discussions (still second to reloading and supplies), followed by chat about shoots in Florida and other states. There is next to zero chatter about moving the Grand. My son and I will shoot the Grand this year, primarily because we know that life moves on and that while we are fortunate enough to shoot together we should shoot the Parent/Child event at what is still the year's premier shoot.

My point? I hope the Grand will be a very positive experience for my son. We meet good people wherever we shoot and I appreciate the positive role-modeling my son observes as we get deeper into the sport. My hope for the sport is that shooters will stick together for the good of the sport, something politicians simply will not do. They will make politically expedient decisions. Period. As we stick together for the sport we will weather the political winds, shoot together regardless of location, and hand honored traditions to the next generation of shooters.

Thanks for listening to a rant from the new guy.

Happy and safe shooting

 

Ollie made a point, we originally had 48 traps in Vandalia. I remember some shoots being carried over, some due to weather, but they handled it.

If we still had the original events we had in 1960s I think it could still be done over 48 traps.

We have 3 clubs that have 48 traps, Cardinal Center, Pennsylvania, and Missouri
there may be more, these are the ones that I know of.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I believe the CC could handle the Grand if they wanted to, but, I doubt at this time they would/are even considering doing so. The large shoots they host now are run well and on time and friendly even with some unscheduled delays. Sparta is a nice facility for shooting all the traps have a great background but the facility the way it is laid out if not friendly, but again this is my opinion for what's its worth.

 

Tucson has 50 traps and they know how to run a shoot, no ifs, ands, or butts about it ... Don't see the Grand going anyplace unless there is some total political disaster happenings in the state of Illinois ... The clubs that could probably handle the shoot have enough shoots to be worth their while and probably would not want any more unless it was a forced issue ... The ATA basically does not plan ahead now just as they have not in the past for the "just in case" things that could possibly happen or go wrong ... It would be interesteing to know how many traps they have had to use, not how many they have used in the past 10 years ... If push comes to shove they could always make the Grand a shoot you would have to qualify for and run it on 50 traps or less ... Time will tell and when it does we will all know for sure ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Hi, Bud, we're glad to have you!
I live just south of Vandalia myself.
Enjoy your time shooting with your son, both at Sparta and at the Cardinal Center. You'll make memories that will last a lifetime!

 

What could go wrong?

 

This is a repeat of what I said years ago< Mr. Lex Wexner who owns the Limited.
Mr. Wexner offered the ATA a 100 year lease on all flat land. The ATA did not want anyone to have any stipulations, This offer was denied by the ATA and Mr.Acklin ATA President.

The ATA came back and asked Mr. Wexner for the deal. Mr. Wexner said I made the offer to you once, you did not want it. You turned me down once, You get no 2nd chance.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

If the WSRC would be closed due to budget cuts by the state, the Martin's could buy it along with the ATA and make something useful out of both!

 

Have heard a golf course was being planned.

 

18 holes, par is 54

Flyersarebest

 

Rosey, 1957 was my first Grand American to shoot in. There were 2129 entries in the Grand American Handicap and it was shot over 32 program traps. In 1961 I was runner up in the Grand American Handicap and there were 2353 entries and if my memory serves me correctly this was still held on 32 program traps. We need to go all the way back to 1946 to have fewer entries in the GAH than entered last year.

Again relying on memory the whole Grand program when I started was 100 warm up on Preliminary Thursday, 100 each singles and handicap on Friday an Saturday. On Sunday was the Dayton Home Coming 200 singles. Monday Introductory 200 singles, Tuesday 200 Class Championship singles, Wednesday 200 singles Clay Target Championship Thursday 100 Champion of Champion and 100 preliminary Handicap, Friday 100 Grand American Handicap, and Saturday 100 Doubles Championship and 100 Vandalia Handicap. It wasn't until later years that they started throwing 300 target days. Then all shootoffs were held in the daylight. No lights and it was very rare that any traps were reset after the program started. All handset targets and all hand pulled targets.

To answer the question could the Grand be held on 48 traps YES. Could it be held on 32 traps? Probably with some changes to the program by cutting back on the 300 target days.

Dave Berlet

 

The Golf Course idea came from trying to make use of all the sand that the Pro-18 shooters left. The sand from shooting Trap .... would be great for the sand traps for the Golf Course in BFE.

 

Dave, If you consider 15 minutes for a squad to shoot, and move to the next bank:

1600 shooters devided by 5 shooters (320 full squads) on 12 banks is 27 squads x 15 minutes per squad rotation is 405 minutes devided by 60 equals 6.75 hours if there are no problems. you'll lose some time because the first 2 squads are seldom full, but lets assume 7 hours.

If you rotate every 10 minutes/squad, it cuts it back to 4.5 hours.

I'll be timing squads at the Ohio State shoot. Now I'm curious.

 

If I were the Martins I would buy it and Name it after them.
And hold some major shoots there. Like the USA Open.

I am sure they would have their own Ideas.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

If the place couldn't make a dime in the last ten years what's to say the ATA or anyone else could turn a profit. The place is in no mans land without adequate infrastructure. Bulldoze it and forget it!

 

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/2...n-massive-downstate-gun-range-that-sits-empty

 

Dave: I do not think we any 300 target days.
GB DLS

 

I wonder if someone(dawg) will post that link anywhere else.

Flyersarebest

 

Dave Berlet: What is the most entries to ever enter the Grand American Hdcp? I seem to remember approx. 1200 squads is that close?
Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

5,000!

 

1999 had exactly 5,000 GAH entries-100th anniversary!

 

Have to wonder where little green dwarfs will shoot when it closes.

 

That would be 1,000 squads Maybe w/ partial and unfilled 1200+ws on the big board.

GB DLS

 

Do not think we need any 300 target days

GB DLS

 

I don't think there were any unfilled positions or empty squads at the 1999 Grand.

If my memory is correct they were 'full', 5000 shooters, early in the week. And if you were not paid in advance the position was reassigned.

No parking ... the 'wagons' were full all day, no place to ride ... and people selling everything, on every square inch of the grounds ... those were the days ...

 

Rosey normally on 16yd events you can run squads 0n a average of 10 minutes per squad or 6 squads per trap per hour and hdcp squads at a little over 5 squads per trap per hour. It will take most of an hour to complete a 100 target event, but it is only about 40 minutes actual shooting time. Also back in those early grands you skipped 4 fields between 25's and everyone walked. At first when they went to 48 traps you skipped 6 traps between 25's. Then later the line was divided into quarters and you had east east and east west and you had west east and west west with everyone walking between traps. The golfcart mania had not yet arrived at the trapshoots. These are just the facts.

Dave Berlet

 

The new location will need a lot of room for vendors and lots of toilets.

 

This is a massive waste of money. Moving traps and equipment could cost millions.

 

Two tractor trailers at around $1,200 each is not millions. The trap houses are left for the bulldozers!

 

I fail to see why the people on TS.Com are so hell bent on making untrue comments about this site ... I go there and come here, walk freely through both without any ill feelings about either ... The problem with TS.Com is not TS.Com, it appears that its the people who post there are the problem ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

The ATA and TS.com fell to the same fate .... a few narrow-minded self-serving people, including the new owners of TS.com, drove people away for self-gain.

A few "haters" did not destroy the ATA/Sparta-WSC/the Grand or TS.com.

Anything acting as a fiduciary will be OK .... leaches just cause anemia and slow death.

 

Ollie can we get all the Pat Traps at Sparta on 2 Tractor Trailers?

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

All of them except maybe 8

Flyersarebest

 

Good one, Flyersarebest

 

Heard of a vendor that was told not to send his lease money in. Like another poster said....the announcement was the stake in heart.

 

A good friend of mine stopped by the facility in Sparta and says it has grass growing 2 ft tall so they are obviously not doing any maintainance in the mean time ... The Political nature of the State has been shaky for a long time, sooner or later this has to catch up with all involved and some major changes will have to be made ... Seriously doubt the ATA has any plan "B" just in case any or all of the news about the facility as of late are for real ... The news thats being made public sure does not look good, but you never know you know ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Hopefully this is all talk without substance but again you never know and I'm another one that does not believe that the ATA has a plan "B". Just maybe the ATA is in the Know and a plan "B" will not be required.

 

Hope your right ... WPT ... (YAC) ..

 

I just talked to someone who was there Thursday 6/18/15 and he said there were NO tall weeds or grass in the shooting areas. He also stated that what a person has to remember is that area of the country has had 12 inches of rain since June 1 ( of this year).

 

Illinois is still an anti-gun state. If the Cook county political scum can get the Sparta location closed they will. It is not just the money pit that the WSC turned into, it is mainly the hatred of guns. I would not be a bite surprised that Sparta would close. Hope not but I think it does have a better chance of closing than staying open.

 

Not sure when they stopped by but have pictures and said it was not a pretty sight ... They are in Illinois now for family business, sure I will talk to them again before long ... The did say also they will no be re newing the lease on their spot based on all of the information on the news ... They said this will probably be their last Grand no matter what happens, so it don't matter ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Well, well, well. Maybe I hear an I told you so coming. BD.

 

What was that Brad, lets hear it.

 

Leonidas I am much closer to the place than you. Looks bad.

 

How does that start?

 

Who is taking bets on the if part?