Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by merlo, Apr 8, 2018.
ATA supporter, Martin, wants the GAH winner to be limited to 27 yard line shooters only.
They don't have that many people willing to go to that place in IL. now. THAT would really kill it
Kentucky shooters may be officially banned.
The GAH should be a 27 yard win. the shorter wins would be Yardage wins, I have always felt this way.
That would kill any shoot attendance not only the GAH
So Doc, say I'm on the 26 and break a 100. I don't win the GAH, but a guy on the 27 with a 99 does?
Better give that one a little more thought bud.
Doc, I feel that way too but I didn't hold that view in my early days of shooting. It only came after reading the history of the sport and observing the inconsistency of our championship races.
All shooters (from newbies to top shots) are eligible for the Clay Target Championship and all shoot from the same yardage (16-yards).
All shooters (from newbies to top shots) are eligible for the Doubles Championship and all shoot from the same yard mark (16-yards).
So why doesn't all shooters shooting for a distance handicap (true) Championship all shoot from the same yardage?
Where is all the outrage of the top shots shooting from the same distance in singles & doubles? I just don't get it.
Regular handicap events should be for shooters in every yardage group. I support yardage and class shooting events. Hold several handicap events during the GAH.
However, when shooting the major championship to determine the best shot that day for shooters standing at a greater distance from the trap in order to increasing the level of difficulty, I believe everyone who wishes to enter to win the the Grand American Distance Championship should shoot from the same distance mark, whatever it is, just like they do for singles & doubles.
Now you can crown a true Champion for the day.
The history of handicapping shooters at the Grand American however, has always assigned the better shooters the greater distance though. I don't think that will ever change. But, winning the Grand American Handicap Championship from 19 yards just doesn't have the prominence that winning it from the back fence does. IMHO.
What would be the point of a shooting a "Handicap" championship event if you limit who could win the event before anyone enters it?
That is why it is called the Grand American (Handicap) If you have to be on the 27 yards to shoot it they would have to change the name to the Grand American 27 yard Championship because the handicapping has been eliminated.
NOPE: You did not do it from the Maximum Handicap, same as if you were on the 20yard line..
You have an option to win the GAH, if you shoot from the 27, Breaking a 100 from the 26, what would 3 feet make, a Yardage winner.
The GAH Handicap is the best of the Best at the Max Yardage, And it should consist ALL SHOOTERS FROM THE 27Yd Hdcp. If you are good GET OFF the PORCH
and shoot w/the best.
Now take a 20 yard shooter and he wants to shoot for the GAH, so he shoots from the 27 and wins, He is the GAH Winner, hands down!!!!
PS, look at all the 20 yard shooters, shooting 27 Yard Buddies, why are they on the 20 yd line?
HB: My personal feeling, is you want to shoot for the GAH, you get squadded on a 27 yard handicap Squad at the Squadding Table, tell them you are shooting for the GAH. Only those 27 Yd shooters are entitled to the Payouts of the GAH.
You Yardage shooters are entitled to the monies your Yardage Group paid into, same as the 27 yd entries.
It Is Simple to do when you squad, you say I am shooting for the GAH.
Shorter Yardage say I am shooting for Handicap Ydg. Championship.
What's so hard about that, it is the shooter's option, to be the best of the best from the 27.
Might just as well have a 27 yard championship where everyone could compete, if they wish to shoot an extra event.
There is no SANDBAGGING from the 27yd.!!!!!!!!!!!
I posted many times over the years, That the GAH Winner must be from the 27 yard line.
A 19 yd shooter cannot be a GAH Winner, he is 8 yards closer to the target and angles are easier.
What about all the shooters on the 27 who have refused reductions year after year and should not be there? Perhaps there should be a GAH Champion for each yardage....spread the glory around. This thread is not making a lot of sense.....oh well, freedom of speech and lots of opinions to consider. Regards, Ed
Flyersrbest: There would be 2 handicap races at once, the GAH & the Yardage Championships. Both sides win.
OLD GOAT: How are the one's on the 27 that do not deserve to be there or have a 27 Yd average to be there going to win anyway????
Just don't miss any targets in the event or in the shoot-off.....simple. Regards, Ed
[QUO kTE="oleolliedawg, post: 43984, member: 146"]Kentucky shooters may be officially banned.[/QUOTE]
As well as 18 yard pa shooters.
With all the trophies being awarded now, this would be one that makes sense...LOL
As well as 18 yard pa shooters.[/QUOTE]
I'm in full agreement with that one. Unfortunately, KY has traditionally maintained an edge on winning the GAHC. I hear most clubs down there have no need for yardage walkways beyond the 21 so it doesn't surprise me why they're so successful at short yardage.
GB, back in the 70s when I was shooting my way back to the 27, I even told people then, ''The only people I can honestly say I beat were the ones standing on the same yardage as I or closer''.. Only when I shot from the 27 and won did I truly beat every one.
Does anyone shoot the GAH?
I am a 27 yard shooter and I feel that any yardage (18-27) should be eligible to win the GAH. I feel that handicapping shooter helps even out the skill levels of shooters. I know some people take advantage of this system but most of the time it works pretty well.
As long as Harlan is at the 30 the rest can shoot from the 27.
Oleolliedawg, And he will more than likely still win most of the time. Roger C.
First reg targets were 1976. First Grand was 1977 on the 24.5, got 2 yards for the 97 and got the last punch in early Sept.
It took a little over 1400 total targets to get to the fence. Took a one yard reduction a few years later and broke a 98 two weeks later.
I NEVER thought that because I made it the guys trying their asses off on the 22,23,24,25,26 shouldn't have a chance at winning the GAH.
JHC, that is about the silliest idea I've seen on here yet.
A shooter joins,practices all he can and is on a yardage shorter than the 27 so he can't have a chance at the big prize?
So you tell an HONEST shooter that is getting better because he is shooting as much as he can that he can't win the GAH unless he shoots from the 27. Yeah that will get a LOT more people shooting registered.
Hey doc, you have a problem with sandbaggers, you always bring it up, take care of that problem. I am from the same state that produced the 18 yard winner. THAT should have never happened. I'm also from the same state and knew the winner of the GAH that was on the 22. No problem with that at all. God bless him.
Hey Doc since the GAH can only come from the 27. Then they only shoot for 27 yard money and options and
the shooters 18 to 26 yards shoot for the remainder of the yardage money and options. It will make for a lite payday
for the 27 yarders and the short yardage shooters won't be complaining about the big dogs taking all the money.
The 27 yd. marker should not be the limit then if you want a true handicap winner. There should not be a limit.
How many times has Harlan won the Grand American Handicap? Which current shooters have the most 100 straight's from the 27 yard line?
I'll betcha he'll go for top dollar if they held a Calcutta at the same time. Well, if Kentucky sends a large contingent of shooters he might have some competition. Enough said.
The problem is more in the numbers. Chances are better that someone will shoot much better than their average in the lower percentages simply because there are more people down there, and they have more room to improve. Running an extra 10 - 12 birds is much easier up close than running another 4 or 5 at the 27. Odds are that if they have a good day in the zone, that they will do better percentage wise. The 27 yd. shooters will still need to have a good day in the zone to run them, or win the Handicap. That is why it is called Handicap. To win you have to shoot better than your average. Once you reach the plateau, it is much harder to do that.
I find it hard to believe that people will sandbag with their qualifying targets to just get to shorter yardage. Though, you still have to run them or shoot a 99 to win more than likely at the Grand. That still requires good shooting, and a day in the zone.
Also, think of the shoot offs there would be. I could however see that eliminating the shorter yardages (Start at the 21 or 22) would be better than just having one yardage available to claim the "Handicap Champion". That would be more like the "Pro" champion category of a Pro-Am and would not have anything to do with Handicap. It basically would be a scratch Pro champion of the Grand.
Then have a Handicap Champion won by shooting between the 21 - 26 yd. markers.
Actually there is a disproportionate amount at the 27 yard line. (more shooters) Part of the occupy the 27, (got that off user-1)
Here's to taking the the "H" out of the "GAH". lol Oh well we already took the shooters out. Why not the "H"?
That ATA must be considering this if they wanted it in the minutes.
I think you are missing the point of "handicap". It was supposed to level the playing field. Unfortunately it sounds like there may be some bumps in the field. All handicap shooters should be eligible for GAH champion. The winner could always be awarded the "honor" of 27 yard handicap shooter for a period of time with no more than a one yard reduction per 1000 targets shot. Honest shooters from shorter yards probably would not win more than once in a lifetime no matter what and the "baggers " would be moved back to a "fairer" yardage. And the shooters at the 27 would be unaffected.
This is just dumb! Anybody knows if you break the most targets you WIN! Doesn't what yardage. As long as it's your ATA yardage. Merlo where do you get this stuff? LOL
How about limiting this competition to 27 yard handicap shooters only who have NEVER refused a reduction? Only "pure" 27 yard handicappers would be allowed..this would ensure that only the "best of the best" would be competing for GAH champion! I believe this is what this strangely concocted thread is suggesting.
Do I think it is poorly thought out? ABSOLUTELY YES! But, remember, this the "Open Trapshooters Forum" - any and all comments considered.... Flame away.... Ed
So would you do the same thing at your state shoots? Only let 27yd shoot for state title? If it's good for the GAH why not the state shoot?
I heard the guy from PA went to Kentucky for training. Any truth to this "rumor"
Tshot, The handicap game is not a level playing field. Many improvements in equipment and the relaxing of target flight rules has skewered the game big time. The yardage must be increased to the 30 yard line. the long yardage shooters are not challenged as much as the average shooter. They will still be winners, but not quite as often. Most of them will conquer the added challenge, but not over night. They will win because they are more dedicated and have more ability than most other shooters.
Also the term high gun must be removed from all purses. This eliminates 95% of all shooters from finishing in the money divisions. This was the death knell for the money shooters that were not in the top 5% of the game. And I think you should be able to see how that affected the shooters that play the purses. Many lost interest in the sport after many of these changes were put in play. My thinking is they were never thought out as to the long term affect they have had on the game. If you have any suggestions as to how to rectify these problems, please feel free to post them for all to read. Roger C.
Roger - I have a suggestion: Don't play for the money; play for the fun and glory if you win something, mostly handicap. I don't think there is much money in sporting clays and they are doing great.
Not sure about most of what you say but I DO agree no hi gun in any purse!
I have always felt there should be a mandatory purse on Championship targets, with the use of computer programs today it could not be all that difficult to separate Handicap yardages from the 27 yard shooters as well as what would be considered the grand American Champion ... 20/ 21- 22, 23, 24 - 25/26 , and then the 27 yard line as well as the PRO's all by themself ... Each yardage group could shoot for their own portion of the purse so essentially there would be a winner from each group ... Those winners could shoot off from their yardage and the High over all winner could be the grand American Champion ... I do not think the Championship purses should be limited to the grand, but be a part of all registered shooting ... Championship Targets mandatory purses ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
No problem here, just don't call it handicap. It's the 27 yard singles. Let the others shoot handicap, the event where they try to level the playing field by handicapping participants via yardage assignments.
Not flaming you at all oldgoat. I do have a question though.
Aren't you embarrassed to be posting on this "dark side"?
Honestly? Yes, Sometimes....but I'm easily and frequently embarrassed. For example, forgetting to zip my fly once in awhile. Makes my wife furious. But this is an open forum and at 78 years young, there are worse things....like global warming to worry about. Best Regards, Ed
Mike, I had to quit playing the money when the ATA told me I must shoot as an industry shooter. I did shoot for the money and was pretty darn good at it, in my younger days.
That is beside the point. The money is not played by the masses any more. And what is still there is relegated to the top shooters by the high gun options. Do you understand the high gun option? If you do, tell me why the average shooter should enter them.
There are more good shooters, in a much smaller field, than there ever was and a lot less money to divide up among the contestants. This does not draw to many new shooters into the fold. Also our small clubs are not sponsoring registered shoots any more. Something must be done to turn this around. The answer is not, more satelite grands or more AA pointed shoots. Some thing must be done to motivate the small clubs, to do as they used to do, and act as an incubator for the future of the registered shooting sport.
At 81 years young, I am to old the get into the political aspectss of this game, all I can do is try to point out some of the places that I think need improvements. But what do I know I'm new at this game, Roger C.
Trap shooting is a game where the common every day sportsman (young and old) can go and compete against the best and most accomplished who have dedicated years and mountains of money to get where they are today, giving lessons, hosting clinic's and winning money, hoping to be a "Blind Chipmunk" in a sea of established "Sharks" is not realistic ... To test the waters I got a hold of the front office of the D Backs asking for a try out, they said sure if your any good ... The day came and I was approached by one of the Coaches and asked where this Ace was that wanted to try out, I explained that over many (to many years) I had a gathered enough information, not hands on experience and think now is my time to shine ... I told him I would prefer being a base Coach so I would not have to run being as my legs were not what they used to be now that I will soon be 70 years old, long story short I have nerve problems in my lower back so I never made it to the base I was supposed to Coach, (washed out) but thanks for your interest in joining the team ...
I did the same thing with the Arizona "Cardinals" , "Coyotes", and being rather tall when all else failed I figured I was a shoe in with the "Phoenix Suns", they called off practice that day because not one of them could see because of the tears from laughing in their eyes, while rolling around on the floor ... I got back to examining Trap Shooting where age does not seem to exclude a person from trying, but experience does when push comes to shove unless the "Pro's" are separated from the masses ... I always bought my owns guns, ammo, entries, travel expenses,food etc, not to mention support and provide for my family ... I won some money but never got good enough to be able to give lessons, host clinics, get deals on guns and ammo then go out and clean some clocks and make some money to offset the cost of competition ... I guess the time has come to accept the fact I am not a blind "Chipmunk" , and just shoot for fun when I want, if I want and carry on from there until which time ( _________) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
Gary, Though I agree with much of what you post, not this one. What is the point of "handicap?" Whether in trapshooting or golf, horse racing or any other event that does handicapping, the point is to "handicap."
The definition of handicapping in sports is:
"Handicapping is the practice of assigning advantage through scoring compensation or other advantage given to different contestants to equalize the chances of winning. The word also applies to the various methods by which the advantage is calculated. In principle, a more experienced participant is disadvantaged, or a less experienced or capable participant is advantaged, in order to make it possible for the less experienced participant to win whilst maintaining fairness."
The evolution of handicap in trap was exactly that. To level the playing field for new, inexperienced and just plain weak shooters so that they could shoot for money against the best shooters. The GAH has a very long tradition. And it has mostly been won by short yardage shooters. http://www.traphof.org/grand-american-handicap-champions.html And those winners won a bunch of money. A significant amount. (Course, as the ATA has made targets much easier and installed the FTF rule it has made the number of long yardage winners go up significantly.)
Now if you want to have some event at the Grand that only allows 27 yard shooters to establish the best 27 yard shooter on that given day then go ahead. Call it the Grand Long Distance event or something. But don't call it the GAH. That is not what a "handicap" is and it is certainly not the history of the GAH event.
But maybe you think we should just throw away a famous and old tradition and just let a bunch of very old men shoot the sport into the grave. That is kind of where it is going anyway.
Regards, Jake (And, I am a 27 yard shooter so that has no place in my discussion.)
Yea, right. And, let's make sure the long time 27 yard shooters can squad with their regular shooting partners and if possible get their pick of the fields where they shoot while those short yardage folks who are trying to compete against them get squaded with the luck of the draw since they obviously can't have their usual "posse" to shoot with.
That will ensure that only the "best" will win the GAH. And after all, that is what we are trying to find, right?
Been to many shoots lately? Ain't many "young" and lots of "old." I have been trying to figure the average age of trapshooters at events since my 10 year absence from the game over the last 6 months or so. I swear, it looks to me like the average age of the shooters is over 60. Maybe over 65.
If something does not change, the sport will die.
Jakearoo, You are spot on in your statements about the sport. Try and relay that to the EC and BOD. They either did not notice that fact or have no idea of how to entice more new shooters. They tried making the sport easier, that did not work out to well. They added more grand events, all that did was bring the same group of contestants to every one of them, but the ATA received a nice check for the right to have a Grand event. That did not work out to well either, they lost money on many of them.
Now it looks like they are selling our info to advertises to get more money. I do not need any more junk mail or random phone calls. What in the hell are they thinking? Roger C.
I would support all events starting at 20, back to 30 yards.
But the 20yd shooter doesn't have the same ability of the 27yd shooter, that's the ENTIRE PREMISE of the handicapping system. Shooters are handicapped based on their ability, if you make it a 27yd only event then it is no longer a handicap event, it becomes a 27yd line event.
Excellent point and well said! The idea that the "angles are easier" for short yardage shooters misses the point (pardon the pun)....the angles of the targets for each shot are the same for each shooter....it is the skill (ability) of the shooter that determines whether the target gets broken or missed. Regards, Ed
A 20 yd Hdcpd shooter cannot be the best handicap shooter, he can only be the best 20yd Shooter, When he can beat 27 Yard shooters consistently then he is going to join the ranks of the best handicap shooters. It takes more SKILL to break the same angle from the 27 yard line. The 20 yard shooter is closer to the angle, therefore they are easier to break, if that was not true he could break just as many from the 27yard line, which we all know is not possible. Each person has their max ability somewhere between the 20yd line and the 27 yard line. The angle is greater the farther the Target flies and the lead increases the farther it flies,
The faster shells increases a long yardage shooters ability, agree or disagree? Speed is compensating the actual lead over a slower shell, agree or disagree, each has a speed of shell they like, I personally Fare the Winchester Super Handicaps @ 7 1/2s 1250 fps.
Gary, As discussed above, handicap is a noun that describes something (in this case adjusting distance) that is supposed to reduce or eliminate the difference in skill level so that competitors of different skill levels can compete against each other equally or more equally in an event.
It is not a noun that describes an event where the best competitor is determined.
Find me a definition of the word handicap that comports with your definition.
And, as discussed above, once we accept your new definition of "handicap," lets also do away with the entire history of handicap competition in trapshooting and especially the GAH so we can all shoot the new "handicap" event to determine "the best handicap shooter."
ATA trapshooting may not last another generation. Let's eliminate its long history as well.
We have already made the targets and ways of squading events almost non-competitive to eliminate difficult tests. Let's add a couple more FTFs per event and throw straight away targets about 46 yards. That ought a do it.
Gary, Where is this definition of the GAH? (Or any handicap?)
jakearoo, Do not give the EC any more ideas as to how to screw up the game of trap shooting.They have been doing a FANTASTIC job of that with out any help. How about two shots at each target, oh God what did I just suggest?
They could have a champion for each yardage, and a runner up. Of course you can not forget the Ladies ! & 2, jr's, sub jr's, vets, sub vets, Sn. vets,Oh I almost forgot the jr. golds. They will all need a hdk. champion and runner up in each yardage group. Then they can expand the All American teams to honor about 500 top shooters. That should increase attendance at the GAH event. Maybe I should not give them anymore help also. Roger C.
Don't worry too much about the 2nd shot Roger. They won't go to 2 shots at each target because the sport has evolved to create mostly single barrel guns for those events. Course, they don't really shoot any better than an O/U but there are LOTS of them in the game and they cost a WHOLE BUNCH of money. Can't change or all those lovely one shot guns will be good for nothing. (Just like they will be when ATA trapshooting finely breathes its last dying breath.)
But, they sure can make the targets even easier and less competitive. After all, from 27 yards, they are KINDA hard to hit every time. Not fair.
FTF? Honest to God, is there ANY other sport that allows a "do over" or refusal to hit back? How bout if the baseball player could not try to field a ball he didn't expect? Or if the batter could just blow off a pitch or two cause he wasn't ready or might "flinch?"
Maybe they could require pitches to not exceed 80 mph so they were easier to hit?
And in tennis. No reason to go after that serve that comes in at 120 to the corner. Do over.
And, make the serves go into a smaller zone, right at the other player. Those corner shots are too pesky.
And God forbid that a competitive golfer have to live with a shot when there is a gust of wind. It ain't fair. Other players didn't have that sudden, unexpected gust. We only want the BEST to win and unexpected events create uncertainty.
Oh what the heck, just make the GAH a 27yd. an Open Shoot. Everyone shoots 27yd.
If you want to make things really interesting make the Purse mandatory.
Id bet you would be surprised how many would go for that.
Roger, NOW "WE" are thinking along the same lines....
Is there a Grand American Singles Champion and a Grand American Doubles Champion? Or is there only a Champion for each class/category (ex. AAA champ, AA Champ, Lady 1 Champ, etc.)?
I like the idea. The top event should be from the hardest yardage. All entrants should be allowed to shoot from the 27 and try for match win.
Choosing squad mates and field choice should never have been allowed.
I'm fine with that. Just call it the Grand American. It's the top event. Treat it like such. The local high school team doesn't play in the Super Bowl.
The Grand American is nothing but smoldering ashes sitting next to a run way at Dayton Int Airport ... You can call it anything that makes you feel good about it, fact is "The Grand " as many of us knew it is gone and will only be forgotten once the last one of us who attended it in Ohio is dead and gone .... Like it was once said about putting "Lipstick on a PIG", its still a Pig and the smell gives it away long before you see it ... The new and improved version can't draw a crowd all the while other shoots seem to prosper at least to some degree ... Many (most ) members have made the choice to not support the State of Illinois and in turn the ATA pays the price ... Shooters have made other shoots a replacement for the grand so they can get their fill of big events ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
Sad, but so true. Every time I drive past those famous grounds at least twice a week, I look over those empty fields and can't help feeling a great loss.
I believe I said this before, The GAH is shot from the 27, all others are Yardage Hdcps, strictly Hdcp, no designations of women, juniors, seniors, Etc. strictly Ydg.
The best at that yardage, no matter what it is. Women have the same ability, there is not that many women Trapshooters, compared to the Male trapshooters.
The Younger shooters have better reflexes and most are not affected with stress, or anxiety.
I am a DEEP TRUE TRAPSHOOTER AND REALLY LOVE Handicap shooteing, the harder the better, just give me the hardest presentation and I will do my hardest to break them, That is one reason I shoot a Really High POI.
If we shoot 60 Degree angles at 60 yards distance from the 27 yard line, and there are multiple 100s broken, then I feel it is ok to have a 30 yard line.
Until then absolutely no 30 yard line.
Trapshooting is a SPORT like no other, nothing would or has compared to 60x60x27, I believe in it and would love to shoot it even at my soon to be 78 yrs old.
With all the improvements in Trapguns, Hdcp shells, Voice Calls, and 700 hp+ cars that are being built, and then you get people like Neil Winston get approval of 1300+fps. legal shells, and 30 degree angles, and 48 yard targets to make Trapshooting what IT WAS NOT DESIGNED TO BE.
REAL TRAPSHOOTERS WILL STAND WITH ME ON THE, 60 X 60 X 27yd targets, especially with all the improvements in equipment.
Add WOBBLE to the above and you really have trapshooting at it's absolute best, don't you just love it?
Truly competitive trapshooting has been reduced to fun and games for the most part ... I have seen numerous shooters (game shooters) go and break targets from 50 yards behind the trap house going to 60 yards away, high, low , second shots smoked, because it is all just fun and games ... I have seen and watched some of those same shooters not be able to break 75/100 in registered or a special event from the 20 yard line ... I shot with a few and ventured into buying a few in special events only to have my money go more as a donation to the other shooters (got what I deserved) ... In all fairness it would not be logical or reasonable to limit the winners of the grand to only (established) 27 yard shooters, thus eliminating those who have not made it to the back fence ... The mid and short yardage shooters have to be considered and given just as much consideration as the long yardage shooters, there has to be a way to sort out the "All of a Sudden, got Lucky" shooters from the rest of the field ... I have felt for a long time that all handicap shooting should be from the 27 yard line ( or at least 25 yard line) and people be classified as they are in singles and doubles, this would no doubt create and send shock waves to the now middle and short yardage shooters even before it was tested ... I do feel longer wider targets have some merit but with some modifications to make and let the handicap system work as it was designed to in the first place and some how eliminate the cheaters . (sandbaggers ) ...
The established "PROS" have to be separated from the general shooting population so they shoot against each other for their monies ... (PROS give clinics, lessons, sell DVD's, get gun deals, shells deals, sponsors, etc , etc ...) If a 27/ D shooter breaks and wins with a score of 50/100 so be it, same with 27/B, 27/C, 27 / A, etc ... The technology that exists today would simplify the classification systems with a push of the button ... The game was built on Integrity and sportsmanship, some how, some where along the way that got ignored and eliminated to become what it has ended up being today ... I agree with DLS, but with slight modifications to his ways of getting it done ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
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