Overbore problems in winter shooting?

Discussion in 'Trapshooting Forum - Americantrapshooter.com' started by rrisum, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. rrisum

    rrisum Mega Poster

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    Does cold weather effect extreme overbore performance? --Wad sealing problems? Shot with a friend shooting a Kohler .750 bore in sub -0 wind chill --His shells just didn't sound right. -- cold shells verses warm shells? -- More we brought it up the lower his scores went. -- Mind over matter? -- Bad loads? -- Just asking if anyone else have noticed this?
     
  2. Shamus

    Shamus Member

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    Find out what ammo. Some estates act up in cold if left in a vehicle over night in cold. Older aguilas had a wad issue but was supposed to be taken care of.
     
  3. Smokintom

    Smokintom Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Yes it can and will in very cold weather. Happened to me some years ago and switched back to my M12 and the problem went away. But it was very cold too.
     
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  4. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Doubt if wad sealing was the problem. When the shell fires, the wad skirt (the part that seals) is instantly exposed to extremely high temperature since the burning propellant is directly behind the skirt.
    I'd say it was a mental thing, since cold temps won't reduce muzzle velocity by more than about 10%, which is not enough to affect shot placement.
     
  5. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    When I had my 3200 with Stan Baker .780 bore top single I could not shoot it when it was 20 or under. New shells went like 1/4 load POOF It is definitely a problem in large bore barrels.
     
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  6. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    If the powder was burning completely yet not being sealed by the wad, the resulting "bang" should still be the same; same amount of gasses coming out the muzzle.
    If you're getting a squib-load's POOF, then incomplete powder burn would be the issue.

    I shoot a ton of shells through my overbored barrels in temps down to below zero Fahrenheit. I've never had a problem with wads. Oh, yeah, I'm a duck hunter......
     
  7. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    mudpack what is your bore diameter?
     
  8. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    One of my duck guns is a Browning using Optima-Plus, which is their overbored barrel, I'm told.
    The other duck gun is a Beretta using OptimaBore Plus, which Beretta describes as "featuring an overbored barrel".
    Perhaps you'd know what those bores are, I do not.
     
  9. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    Just measured the bores, Ken. The Browning is .740", the Beretta is .730".
     
  10. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    In my experience usually you don't have a cold weather issue under a .750 bore. Most standard barrels are .727 so anything over that they list as "overbore"
     
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  11. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    You bring up some good points.
     
  12. pepsiguy

    pepsiguy Member Founding Member

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    Mabe that is why Kolar went back to 740 bore.
     
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  13. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I know some with the .750 bore had problems in this cold Wisconsin weather.
     
  14. 10ga32

    10ga32 Active Member

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    How do these duck guns with big bores go boom in the winter? Look up psychosomatic.
     
  15. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    I did. Here's what Webster's says "of, relating to, concerned with, or involving both mind and body".
    Now, I'm trying to apply that to duck guns. Not having much luck.

    As for why duck guns have no problems in zero-degree temps, I surely don't know but perhaps Cerney's post (#10) holds a clue.
     
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  16. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    Kolar had problems with the .750 Bore guns, and went back to the .740. That .780 bore was terrible in "0" weather with certain WADS Some wads had VIRGIN plastic w/deep flexible powder cups.The factory Bbls are my desire as I shoot in all Weather Conditions and DEMAND excellent shell sealing conditions I am a winner not a loser, .740 Bores are my Choice. Mudpack you need to do some studying of shotshell principles, Bores and Temps.

    GB...…………………………………..DLS
     
  17. dr.longshot

    dr.longshot Grudge Match Champion Founding Member Grudge Match Champion Forum Leader

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    Winchester 3 Inch Model 12s are not Big Bores but Heavy Walled Thicker Bores & a Heavier Gun w/LEAD in the Factory Stocks. Us Old Timers are not Dummies. Called Expierence.

    GB...……………………………..DLS
     
  18. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    I have. I shoot my "overbored" duck guns in temperature well into the teens and even into the negative numbers. That's what I reported here. See post #4 again and tell me if what I'm saying is untrue or misleading. BTW, nobody but you has brought up Model 12 duck guns, since they are pretty much irrelevant in today's waterfowling.
    longshot, you need to keep an open mind when someone voices an opinion that comes from their own experience. You might learn something....I know I certainly have learned something on this thread.
     
  19. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    When I had my Kolar with the .740 barrel I would get some off sounding loads. I think it was the wads not sealing as quickly to the bore. It does not take much gas escaping in the beginning, to drop the maximum pressures. Back pressure is what helps to get full ignition. If you shot Green Dot loads that were left in the cold for a longer period they would really sound like shooting a pellet gun.

    When you really think of it, and look at reasoning for back-boring/lengthened forcing cones seeming to be less recoil, it is because the bore is wider and allows gas to escape in the very beginning. I am thinking that slows down acceleration of the load in the beginning. Then the argument has always been whether our brains can process that very, very small and quick time frame difference. That seems to come up every winter for discussion.

    You have to shoot some hot, higher pressure loads in the winter. Fed 209A's are a good replacement primer in the winter if reloading.
     
  20. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    I normally shoot 2 3/4 dr for 16 yds but last week end I shot the Badger State Games in Marathon WI. I shot 3 dr loads because of cold weather and my Kolar has a .740 bore. It worked as I took Gold in Senior Div.
     
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  21. rrisum

    rrisum Mega Poster

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    Congratulation on your Badger state Win --Why do they shoot it during the winter games instead of the Badger state summer games --Is it to keep the fair weather southern shooter away??
     
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  22. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    I had a Perazzi with a .740 bore (soft shooter) but living in Arizona never experienced a problem ... One friend of mine from Wisconsin had a Baker big bore (.780) and he said he could tell a big difference when shooting in colder temps ... He pattered the barrel and found a significantly different pattern than when he did the same thing in warm weather, it was not in a good way and the weather adversely effected the performance of the barrel when looking at the pattern ... He called it his summer gun from then on ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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  23. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    rrisum, They have summer games also. I think they have the winter games to make us humble.
     
  24. Lost

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    I always was told that the seal took place above the skirt where the shot seals the wad fingers against the bore. The skirt just separates where the powder and wad come together in the hull. That explains why the wads look like they do after firing with residue on the outside of the wads. I've had 2 wad makers tell me this so I never questioned it.
     
  25. mudpack

    mudpack Mega Poster Founding Member

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    It's entirely possible that the shotcup fingers look black because they scrape along approx. 30 inches of bore on the way out, picking up burnt powder particles from the previous shot. Pretty sure the skirt does 99% of the gas sealing at the shot.
     
  26. goose2

    goose2 Active Member Founding Member

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    I didn’t read what types of shells he was using. I know out here in Idaho in the winter it can get real cold and what I have noticed is if your shells are cold like sitting in the bed of your truck they will loose some velocity. Certainly more noticeable at altitude and larger bore. I Always try to keep the shells In warmth. Green dot powder is not a good powder when it gets cold.
    Probably because it’s a slow burner.
     
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  27. rrisum

    rrisum Mega Poster

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    I believe it is a combination of both --Big bores just multiply the problem -- Even my factory Ljutic barrel was spitting fire out of the porting last night in 0 degree weather, shooting gun club shells.
     
  28. cheetah

    cheetah Active Member

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    That’s KOLAR not KOHLER more than likely some funky reload the .750 Kolars I own have never give any indication of a problem but then I only shoot quality ammo.
     
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  29. cheetah

    cheetah Active Member

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    Kolar never had problems with the .750 bore .Kolar has never dropped the .750 bore barrels they are still available as of 03-15-2020 I own four Kolars two with .750 bores and two with .740 bores and a multitude of extra barrels I have never had a problem with any but then again I don’t shoot ROLL YOU OWN Ammo in them just quality factory Ammo.
    GB you have too much fiber in your diet !!!!!
     
  30. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Elite Poster Staff Member Founding Member

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    I've personally seen it happen on a few occasions. Fortunately, those over-bored barrels never became popular.
     
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  31. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    The Laws of Nature say any change should or would present a different out come if all things remain the same other than that particular change ... The barrels are chambers that produce pressure and propulsion by compression so by making the "chamber bigger" it would only stand to reason that the pressure would or should be reduced, probably have an effect on propulsion (fps) also ... I am not into science or all of the Techie stuff but common sense would dictate that changes would indicate and result in changes at least to some degree ... The question would be to what degree which can be determined by charts and graphs if we had any to prove that point ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  32. cheetah

    cheetah Active Member

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    Wpt,perform a velocity test via chronograph .740 versus .750 bore using the same Ammo end results will show you an increase in velocity with the .750 bore versus the .740 bore.
     
  33. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    Cheetah,

    I am not the guy who is into all the techie stuff but I can tell you I had some shells checked years ago and there was a major difference in velocity ( 20 +/- fps) in the same shells out of the same box by more than one manufacture ... The shells that were most consistent were the Remington Nitro's in all flavors ... ( 7 1/2's and 8's ) ... The reports included charts and graphs on the over all break down of the shells I had tested ( I had it done at a testing facility, not a home chronograph ) ... The report was impressive, the results over all not so much ... How much of a difference did you find and on what shells ..? I do not pattern guns for anything other than the "Hot Spot" because there are no two shells exactly the same ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  34. cheetah

    cheetah Active Member

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    The most consistent shell for me is the AA Handicap Winchester average velocity taken from ten consecutive shots thru a 32”.740 bore Kolar from three feet of the muzzle was 1267 FPS , deviation +or- 16 FPS. The 32” .750 bore averaged 1278 FPS deviation over ten shots 14fps using my Oehler 35p chronograph.
     
  35. wpt

    wpt Forum Leader Founding Member Forum Leader

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    The shells today must be a better than the ones I had tested based on those results ... Remington Nitro's were the most consistent, Federal Papers, AA's and AA handicaps shells, Federal Gold Medals, Kent's, then Challengers (recalled from memory) being as the print out results have long since disappeared, been lost, or in a box in the garage I do not recall the actual exact differences ... It would make sense that there have been improvements ( progress ) over the last X number of years ... The velocity difference between all of the manufactures of shells was minimal, probably not enough to make a big difference when all is said and done but you never know you know ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
  36. rrisum

    rrisum Mega Poster

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  37. rrisum

    rrisum Mega Poster

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    The post is over bore problems in winter shooting --both of your chronograph tests don't say the temperature at the time of the testing -- That's the question? --Your posts is what sold us all 20 years ago -Bigger was better - but at what temperature range --Retest with a 70 degree temperature drop and repost -Winter shooting can be challenging >
     
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  38. cheetah

    cheetah Active Member

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    What temperature are you having the issues - what bore diameter and ammo ????? The coldest temp.I have shot my Kolars in was + 15 degree weather and I always carry my ammo inside a warm vehicle.
     
  39. cheetah

    cheetah Active Member

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    Wap,the most consistent velocity shell I have ever tested are the Rio Star Team 1&1/8 oz at 1315 FPS with less than 10 FPS deviation the recoil is pretty hefty. I use them occasionally on long distant shooting.
    My Kolars at night emit a V form flash even more so with double base powders with the Angle Port porting they came from the factory with even in warmer weather.
     
  40. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    Sure all of this comes up after Neil died.
     
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  41. cheetah

    cheetah Active Member

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    And your point is??????
     
  42. Ken Cerney

    Ken Cerney Elite Poster Founding Member

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    cheetah, Looks like you haven' t been here long enough to get the joke
     
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  43. cheetah

    cheetah Active Member

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    Ken pardon my lack of concern.
     

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