Southern Grand Classification Failure

Having just returned from the Southern Grand late last night I want to say it was nothing but a pleasant experience. Perfect weather, challenging targets and wonderful people managing the shoot.

Unfortunately, one incident kinda puzzled me. It seems one member of the ATA All-American team with a solid class A Singles average last year was classified D Singles. This fine shooter proceeded to break a 100 on Monday and moved up to C and then broke 99 on Tuesday moving up to B. Understandably, the shooter shot poorly on their last 800 targets but maybe the known ability rule should have been enforced in this particular case.

Does anyone believe under any circumstances an ATA All-American from the previous year should be classified D?

 

I donot believe that an ATA All-American solid "A" from the previous year should be classified as"D". That being said it is in the eyes of the classifier, either the classifier knew the shooter and gave him /her a break or did not know the shooter or his/her record and classified him/her on the last 800 targets which were probably shot under not the most ideal conditions. In any instance you would think that the shooter would have enough integrity to have himself/herself classified according to their ability.

It is also a wonder that nobody complained especially after the 100 broken on the Monday. You would also think that the shooter would have been moved to "A" after the first 100 and a prior record check, but again that appears to be the breaks some get other do not.

 

Leondis, If I'm right the shooter was Douglas Damron. He won the High Vet award on monday. The fact that he was classified in D really didn't have impact on the other D shooters. We wasn't listed as Winner or Runner Up in C on Tuesday. EDIT - Douglas Damron was not the shooter in question. Sorry Douglas!!! EDIT

All American status is determined on points and I believe only top 6 points shoots are counted. So, a person could shoot less than AAA/AA scores for an average and peak at the right time racking up AA points.

Ollie's question was should an AA member of the prior year ever be classed as a D shooter. I don't know. With the Vet/Sr Vet teams going as deep as they do there can be a big change from year to year. Why make a rule to artibitrarily punish someone for their past accomplishments.

Should this person have been classed a little higher? Probably so. It seems we let the computers do the classifying these days without looking at the paper cards any longer. The cards have had 4 years of history on them for quite a while. A quick look at this persons card would have revealed a fairly solid A average for the past 4 years.

Fortunately no true D shooter was omitted from a trophy due to the classification of this person.

 

http://www.rjstuart.com/Trophies/2015/sgrand.htm

Iowa guy, I went back and checked and seen my mistake so I removed my post. Apologies if I offended anyone innocent.

But I will ask how the same shooter (D class) can win the first two singles events and be runner up in the last two and not be advanced for the first two class wins?

 

Brown nosing and good suction ... I wasn't even there and can tell you that much ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Leonidas,

I'm just guessing here based on experience at other shoots, so take it FWIW.

I think this is a big problem with larger ATA shoots, and it is not handled consistently from shoot to shoot. My guess is that this guy did not move up in Class simply because he did not win a trophy in his class - due to winning or tying in his Category. I do not believe it should be handled this way, and some bad results occur in the Championship events because of it. If you shoot a score that is at least equal to your Class' winning score, you should get bumped just like the guys that tied for the Class trophy and lost. You shouldn't be able to avoid a Class bump in B Class just because when you shot a 100 you won Vet! That is crazy. You are still a B Class shooter that broke 100 straight that day, and should be treated accordingly.

Every Category shooter is also a Class shooter, and they shouldn't be able to remain in a lower Class after shooting Class winning (or many times higher) scores in the prelim days.

Some thought has go into the wording describing the issue in the programs.

 

Wasn't Douglas Damron classified AA? I am not sure how he got dragged into this.
From RJ's page the HOA ranking 801429 DAMRON DOUGLAS E 876 AA VET

Ollie can clarify this for himself but I expect the shooter in question was a Lady.

 

The programs state; "Class winners will be advanced to the next highest class, for the next like event."

In such cases with all the class and categories, score should also advance a shooter posting higher scores than his/her class winner!

HAP

 

That's the way I look at it too. I think PA used to (or still does) have pretty good wording in their programs.

 

The shooter in question did advance from "D" to "C" to "B" per the OP.

 

Yes, Wishbone. Got off on a tangent, Leonidas was talking about a different person.

 

Wishbone, this is a different shooter. Go to the shoot link I provided and check winners in D class singles for the whole shoot.

Every place I have shot the rules (also enforced) were if you won your class you advanced to the next highest class in 16's and doubles.

 

Wishbone, that was my assumption based on the following: AA in 2014, 100 in Monday's singles, 800 targets in current year with a low average.

If I am wrong I apologize to Mr Damron. Maybe Olliedawg should have been more clear.

edit
I did look at it. Probably was Tiffany Decker he was referring to.

 

Leonidas,

To me, in the days prior to the Category growth and changes to rules for Class/Cat availability, it was usually - if your score was at least high or tied for your class you got bumped. If I was B Class and won the Prelim Singles Champion w/100, I would get bumped even though I didn't actually win the Class B trophy. Now with the new Cat rules it is really a mess.

 

Leonidas
Yes that gentleman did well for himself in "D" class.

He might deserve his own thread to keep things less confusing.

The rule was enforced in some cases but not in his case obviously.

Perhaps he wasn't bumped because of category shooters in "D" class with higher score?

 

Whishbone.

I can see what you are saying but to me the category shooter should be out of the picture with his win in category.

 

It was not Doug Damron, he was Class AA in High Overall, and High All Around, he was never in class D at the Southern Grand, It must have been someone else Olliedawg was talking about.

 

I think you should check the program. Most large shoots have preliminary days and class wins don't get bumped. Monday and Tuesday were prelim days. Bumps started on Wed. Page 6 #1.

Before you start ripping it helps to know the rules.

Lefty

 

So I see Stuart was wrong re-classifying an A Singles shooter from D class to B class in preliminary events and said All-American team member should have remained in class D for the remainder of the entire shoot. That, even though said shooter maintained a high A average for the entire 2014 season. Surprisingly to some the program states on page 1 the tournament started on Monday March 16th at 9AM-not Wednesday March 18th.

No matter, if I was classified AA-which I was-I would be embarrassed to be placed in D class regardless of circumstances and would have questioned the classifier. Under the circumstance, Stuart was correct upgrading the shooter within the rules!

 

I am not saying classifying didn't make a mistake and I don't know his or hers circumstances. Stuart does what he wants, he doesn't always know the current rules. Nobody uses the paper card anymore and I don't what info pops up on the screen.

Lefty

 

Leftout, you are correct that you need to check the program. That said, you need to realize most shoots start the bumps in the preliminary days, by which I mean the days preceding the start of the HOA. Sometimes the very early days are not included in the bump. Terminology varies, the bump process varies etc. etc., etc. Just make sure the program is clear in how it applies so there are no questions about who gets bumped even if they have to take a Cat trophy.

 

The situation WAS brought to Stuarts attention and the correct determination was made according to him by reviewing the records and rules again!

 

Didn't we have a huge brew ha-ha when one of our Australian friends shot at the Grand, then at the CC and was badly misclassified or put on the wrong yardage? Anyone recall that mix-up?

HAP

 

If memory serves me correctly the Aussie told them about their correct yardage (I think yardage gain from the Grand) and the classifier said he was going from the computer yardage which hadn't been updated yet.

 

I think Stuart does enough of these shoots to know far more about the rules than most anyone else!

 

So did Stuart do the classifying? Are you saying Stuart is negligent is his duties if so?

 

Stuart has nothing to do with the classifying. That is done by a member of the CHC.

Ron Burdick

 

Well Mr. Dawg he didn't know the shell speed rule and removal of the dram in the rule at the Dixie. Shoot management and Stuart had shooter with 4 shots to go told his shells were illegal. Some super intelligent nosey old fart took in his hulls, which he went onto field to get( he wasn't supposed to be there). Complained they said 3 1/4 dram therefore illegal in his mind and mgmt also, they were set to DQ him. Until someone with a brain told mgmt and Stuart to read a new rule book. The shell boxes were marked 1260 fps, perfectly legal shell under the new rules.

Lefty

 

According to what has been stated above Stuart re-classified the shooter in question after it was brought to his attention. Again after what was stated above the shooter in question was classified by a member of the Central Hendicap Committee, if this is correct a very large mistake in original classification was made. Computers are a wonderful thing but sometimes we relie on computers too much, the old saying garbage in gargage out. So much for that.

 

Stuart has nothing to do with shell speed rules but can mark "dq"on the shoot report as per a decision by shoot management. Not his call!

I'm sure if he was in classification he wouldn't have allowed an All-American to participate at a Satellite Grand in class D with a previous year A class average!

 

Is there anything in his system that would indicate the shooter was prior year All American? Is there any display of prior year averages in his system? If the answer to those questions are both 'NO' and the classifier 1) used only the computer to classify, and 2) didn't know the shooter was a prior year All American how would you know to classify other than what's on the screen? Of course the answer is to read the paper card and review the prior year averages, but all too often that's not being done today.

 

Previous year averages are in the computer. How else can one classify if the shooter failed to shoot a target in the current year?

 

Ollie, it was a question and thanks for the answer. To answer your question, review the paper card, either current year or last year's card. What ever did we do pre computers?