Target Totals Removed-Rumor Has It

Word on the streets today is a significant number of targets (100,000) was removed from two offending clubs and the shooters for not having final scoresheets available. Anyone hear anything similar as I'm sure more info is available?

 

Big deal. Until they remove the title of Grand American Handicap Champion from the current holder of that title, they are just spinning their wheels. I don't care to hear anymore about this story until the ATA brings validity back into the process by stripping the title from the cheater.

 

Charles Bickle GAH Champion 2014

All in Favor

 

More info would be nice.

 

This is Ollies M.O.

 

Bits and pieces coming in or we can all read about in the ATA minutes!

 

oleolliedawg, they only put in the min what they want you to know.Not what you should know.

 

The most current minutes are from Aug 2014

We will need to rely on the grape vine for current info.

 

Yeah, but I guarantee we will all know first!

 

Better get Dr Longshot in the case, he knows how to interpret the ATAs minutes. lol

I do agree with "Don't ban me bro" on this subject.

 

Garry will add it to his list.

 

I didn't think score sheets cost that much.

I wonder if almost one tenth of that total number was taken from ONLY THREE SHOOTERS!!!

Flyersarebest

 

AYE!

-Gary

 

If there is ANY justice.

Flyersarebest

 

Can someone explain in what way this impacts those clubs?

 

Laserwizard:

It means the ATA and the state ATA has to send back the daily fees that was collected.

Ron Burdick

 

Well, sort of!

 

Cheat and you get your money back?

What a sport! What a country!

And you keep the rewards too?

 

Have averages been adjusted? ATA points? Who is suspended? Where are the bodies?

 

If, by some strange act of reason and good sense, this all ends with the ATA finally stripping the infamous cheater of his stolen title, I for one am going to look at the ATA with fresh eyes and renewed optimism.

No need to reply or ridicule; just let me enjoy dream of possible justice for Mr. Bickle. Even if it's a delusion.

-Gary

 

This fiasco is, to me, just another crystal clear insight into the credibility of the ATA, as a whole. While the EC should, indeed, act on this right away, the bigger problem is the fact that the ELECTED ATA delegates, as a group, will not take a stand for their shooters and demand the ATA right this wrong. If the delegates stood together and did their job, the ATA would be forced into taking action. The ATA is "supposed" to be run by the shooters, through their delegates, with the ATA acting on the majority rules system. Yeah, sure, and I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you, right?

What constantly amazes me is the fact that so many shooters will pay money to the ATA, support them, and follow them blindly down the road to no where, all the while knowing they are allowing someone to keep the GAH champion title under these circumstances..........

 

In my opinion, if it's proven that both the clubs and shooters playing a part in such a fiasco, both should be penalized severely! The cheating shooter accepting targets he didn't shoot in order to keep a lower handicap average is a low life! Period! Removing that many targets must be for a very valid reason!

Any club sanctioned by ATA to provide registered targets for us members and cheats the system in any way should/MUST also pay a price!

The injustice done by merely smoothing things over isn't the answer we need for Charlie Bickle or our organization! As GW22 said above; I too hope our leadership does the right thing concerning this and gives our sport the integrity it rightly deserves and our membership should demand nothing less. That said, I sure as he!! ain't holding my breath waiting for it either.

HAP

 

Right on, Hap. And whatever the potential legal ramifications might be for stripping the dirtbag of the title he stole, the ATA needs to... DEAL WITH THEM. That's one of the things we pay dues & fees for.

-Gary

 

"justice for Mr. Bickle" .... should happen. And all the other effects of cheating on this level should be addressed. There are other people who may have lost titles from this.

You would think a person earning six-figures of the members money, who let this happen on their watch, would resign. Or, at the very least focus on cleaning up the ATA, and not worry about easier targets to draw in more sheep.

 

So User 1,

Has the person with the six figure salary given up? Do you intimate knowledge of that fact?

 

"given up" .... would apply to one who has tried. If you let it happen, you own it.

Feel free to make me look a fool, by pointing out the great things this person has done to earn 2k a week.

 

You made the accusations, you prove it.

Or is it when you get caught in an unprovable comment you try to turn the table around?

 

At least the ATA was nice enough to refund the $3 fees for all those targets that were challenged and removed. Not a "get rich scheme" as some claimed to have shot 400 targets in one day but only paid the $3. I hear the states will not be that generous. Can't be too careful around these lawyers you know sayeth the powers at the top.

I wonder what Earl Scripture would have to say about all of this!

 

"You made the accusations" ???? ..... do tell. What did I accuse someone of ???? Being overpaid to do nothing ?????

That my friend is an opinion.

 

I have to admit user 1, You make a good Democrat.

 

I am bored enough to have a useless exchange with someone on a grade-school level .....

But, I will respect those who spent the time and money to provide this site, and stay on topic like they ask.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if that number was the total from MORE than one year.
As in it's been going on for a while.

Flyersarebest

 

Would you think that some of the Sparta gang would make a statement? Integrity flows further downs the sewer as time ticks by.

 

What does Sparta have to do with this other than being the unfortunate scene of the culmination of the crime?

-Gary

 

Gary, Sparta is the front office of the ATA. They left Vandalia a few years ago.

 

So just say ATA if that's what you mean. "Sparta gang" can be taken different ways.

-Gary

 

I like the phrase "Sparta Gang". It seems to be a secret click. A click where secrets are being kept and facts hidden.

 

Why should anything change. They (sport corporations) are all doing it. They are promoting cheating. Look at the NFL. New England had the game balls last and air was lost and the NFL couldn't or wouldn't figure it out right away so the cheating team still had the AFC championship and went on to win the super bowel. I guess too much money involved to figure anything out. So it now it does pay to cheat.

 

I doubt any delegates or ATA officials knew anything about this till the cheaters where ratted out by someone.

If a delegate or ATA official then turned their back and let it slide, they should be replaced immediately. The whole thing had a stench of corruption to it, but that doesn't mean the ATA had the responsibility of oversight assigned to any one person or committee.

Does the ATA have a "Grand Handicap Background/Score Checker"???

Maybe they do now!!!!

 

"If a delegate or ATA official then turned their back and let it slide, they should be replaced immediately. The whole thing had a stench of corruption to it, but that doesn't mean the ATA had the responsibility of oversight assigned to any one person or committee."

Well, Rosey.... They all know about it now, have known about it for quite a while, and, so far, have turned their backs and let it slide. But, hey.... That's the ATA officials and the ATA delegates and that's how they operate. If the ATA is not responsible for the oversight once it's revealed, then who is? Is this the trapshooting organization you originally signed up for? There is so much corruption in the ATA BOD and delegates it's impossible to ever get to the bottom of anything, let alone have them take any action in a timely manner in regards to things such as these. Charles Bickle got robbed of the GAH championship by a shooter that is, in my opinion, lower than the lowest. The man is a cheat, period! Earl Scripture got banned for life for things that are were similiar to this, however, due to the current climate of the ATA, the current GAH champion is still shooting. What does that tell you about the ATA? Do you honestly believe they have your best interest in mind? Do you honestly think they have the integrity of trapshooting in mind? Do you honestly think, for one minute that they are a fair and impartial organization? Guess again, Rosey, and don't forget to renew your membership when it comes due.... The ATA is a money hungry animal and needs shooters such as you to feed it....

 

The PA delegate did NOT ignore the situation and took it as far as he was allowed!

 

What about the rest of the ATA delegates? How many have chosen to ignore the white elephant in the room and hope it just goes away? ALL THE DELEGATES OF THE ATA SHOULD STAND UP FOR WHAT'S RIGHT, not just the PA delegate. Why did they hang him out to dry by himself? They all need to demand an immediate, life long suspension of the cheater. Anything less is not acceptable to the integrity of the sport. I applaud his backbone in at least trying to do something...

 

I for one would not call it "ratting out".

Flyersarebest

 

They hung the last PA delegate out to dry and he packed it in. Similar situation!

 

What does the PA delegate have to do with this?

The cheater is from KY. I would think this investigation would involve the KY delegate and the Central Handicap Committee.

 

Yes sir, Ollie... The ATA doing what it does best: Push anyone out of the way that dares stand up to them..... Same thing happened to Rively and Glass.....

 

Which cheater are we referring to as there seems to be more than one?

 

Dan, My statements were based on the assumption that the ATA is still going to "do something" about it.

I'm in agreement with your following statements if indeed the ATA does nothing. I also assume the handicap committee and quite a few others would love to see this go away, forgotten, and swept under the covers.

It's bad press, and it could be conceived as proof that the 4 yards of free reductions was a folly and bad decision if they strip the title from the current GAH champ. But, that's exactly what should happen.

So, who's gonna push the issue with the ATA?

 

This thread started off talking about targets removed from one club in PA. and one in WV.
I would think the PA delegate would be involved.
It then made a slight turn towards the GAH winner. He was from PA. and registered targets at both clubs, Again the delegates state.
Just a coincidence that the winner shot at the two clubs in question. One of them in PA. He had some, quite a few, removed from his totals.
Only a guess on my part but that is why the PA delegate was mentioned in the first place. BTW, I think he did a good job in his investigation. I don't know how far he could have taken it on his own but at least he made a start.
I would think it is on the ATA big wigs to follow up.

Flyersarebest

 

Many of the Delegates sit on their hands until they are told what to do, thats where the problem is ... If its wrong or an infraction of any rules a Delegate should not have to be told what to do, just do it ... The EC is the Good Ol' Boys club and the delegates are in training ... If you ignore it maybe it will dry up and blow away and no one will be the wiser ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

What's even more interesting was when I commented on another website about the situation and one of the Southern delegates informed me he knew all about it. I then asked why it took a delegate from Yankeeland to get the ball rolling since many of the violations were occurring in his district.

Guess what? No further response!

 

CHEATERS ALL OF THEM INCLUDING CLUBS & THEIR OFFICERS

 

Well, it seems like the ATA realizes overly punishing the offending clubs has the effect of reducing income both for the state and ATA. Kinda slippery slope there.

On the other hand, is this what it's only about?

 

The last posted minutes of the ATA are August, 2014. When will the ATA Board, EC have their next meeting and have the minutes posted.

Birddog

 

"On the other hand, is this what it's only about?" ...... no

This was not a small infraction like shooting questionable shells, or calling a target, or turning down targets ...

If you take a cheating scandal this size in any other sport, heads would roll at the top .... not just the offenders.

 

The top of the chain of offenders are not the shooters, the club officials or the clubs themselves, it is the person who signed the shoot report form included with the scores and other information sent to the ATA. Now that is not to say that others are not guilty of violations, but the signee of the shoot form is certainly guilty and should be the first investigated and punished. By signing you are saying that the shoot was run according to the rules and barring an honest error the results are accurate. Then the investigation could move to the shooters and any other parties found knowledgable of violations. At this point we don't know how this investigation has proceeded and if the removal of targets is the only penalty given. I would think that having a written document by one person for each shoot (usually but not always the cashier) would be the place that suspensions should begin to occur. We'll just have to wait on the results of the investigation to know if the persons involved in turning in the scores are deemed guilty.

 

I agree the clubs and officials involved should be severely reprimanded.

Not condoning the shooters behavior but the clubs and here officials actually filed the bogus documentation.

 

Rumor has it they said he died!

 

Heck .... that person probably died 10 years ago.

The level of cheating that has been tolerated in ATA shooting is now coming to a head. It took the GAH being involved to get the attention of some people.

There is no way the leaders of the ATA could not have known this type of thing is going on ALL-THE-TIME ... unless they live under a rock where the sun never shines, and has no internet access.

What they require to file a complaint is absurd. That only leaves cyber-land for people to vent.

 

Has anyone filed a written complaint to the ATA on the subject? It would be in the Minutes
Dr.longshot

 

We will have to wait for the next minutes to be published and that will take some time.

 

Dr., it appears that all this was precipitated by the GAH winner. I believe rhe EC had "recessed" (concluded?) their August meeting before the GA was over. The complaint would appear to have come post-meeting. "Word on the street" (as Oleolliedawg refers) is that a former Central Hcp Commitee chairman initiated the original complaint involving falsified scores and target totals. From my view as merely a spectator I'm figuring I'll have wait until after at least the next EC meeting or longer for any official word. But, I'm certainly not going to hold my breath expecting any additional action or explanation from the ATA.

 

Dr. Longshot: According to former ATA Delegate, ATA President Neil Winston, A written complaint has to be filled within 30 days of when the
incident took place.......So,,, where do we start,, oh, oh we are of time to file a complaint....

Birddog

 

Yes we are way past the time to make a complaint.

We are left with whatever the EC chose to do.

And it looks like they took away some targets and applied some additional yardage.

I don't think anyone will be stripped of a title.

 

"I don't think anyone will be stripped of a title."

The real shame of that, in my opinion is ...... when people look at a collage of past winners, that represents our past, not all of who they are looking at is the best of the best. They are looking at the high score shooters of that day, but not all are true champions of the sport. And, it is not a collage with a single dark spot.

Does the ATA really want new shooters, and young shooters, to see the highest award available in that light ????

 

How many "one win wonders" have there been in Golf tournaments, Tennis tournaments, Downhill Skiing and the like over the years?

Doesn't every sport have its own little dark secrets when it comes to who is the true champion of the sport??

How many of those "so called champions" have been flogged, beaten and publicly humiliated?

What ever is done or even if its over nothing short of execution will be good enough for some people.

What was done was wrong and something needs done about it but beating the horse over and over accomplishes nothing.

 

If you think "one win wonders" are even in the same ball-park as a group effort of clubs and shooters, to position one of their own for a possible win, you really need different glasses. The rose-color seems to be too dark for light to enter.

The only people who seem to be in a hurry to make things 'go-away' quickly, are the ill informed, or the involved.

 

Isn't this the fellow we are talking about.

Thirty two year old Adam Stefkovich of Avella, PA, shooting from 18 yards, won the 2014 Grand American Handicap.

Birddog

 

Yep, he registered quite a few targets at the two clubs, that LOST the score sheets.
He had his totals ADJUSTED

Flyersarebest

 

OK, Mr Blodmann,,,

Show me where I said it was in the same ball park!!

I was just saying that there are other sports that have the same problems. By the way some of those sports were in a hurry to "make things go away" also.

 

"I was just saying that there are other sports that have the same problems." ..... really ?????

Please tell the uninformed like myself which sports "have the same problems", and everyone keeps their jobs.

There may be people in jail for trying things like this in "other sports". Only in the ATA is it considered business as usual.

 

User1 I'll name one the NFL.

 

No kidding. Lots of hocus-pocus and cover-ups in the National Felons League.

Does ANYBODY really believe Ray Lewis didn't murder that dude?

-Gary

 

OK ... the NFL .... when were the false scores submitted by two different entities for the sake of better positioning one team ?????

Remember we are looking for the "same problems" .....

 

"User the loser" .... "doggy boy" .... "Bring your little tag along with you also" ..... "now you can lick your rear" ..... are you a little insecure without your 'friends' from cyber-land far-far away.

I didn't open your links, nor will I engage in your constant grade-school attempts at a childish name-calling contest.

 

Don't forget NASCAR. Many shady situations including letting Richard Petty get away with blatant cheating at Charlotte in the early-mid 80s. Oversize engine plus illegal tires. They didn't even take away the "win"!

-Gary

 

If hurting my feelings was your goal ..... you failed.

"won't respond like an ass" .... well, if that is based on my opinion .... you win.

​

 

"User the loser" ? , "doggy boy" ?, "now you can lick your rear"?

I have both this great new site and that old one in my favorites. I had to go back and check if I had clicked on that old one by mistake.

Flyersarebest

 

You have to wonder what would motivate someone to defend the corruption of a sport we love.

 

Leonidas, Are you saying that since the NFL and NASCAR have had some cheating issues, that it is OK for our GAH champ and 2 clubs to falsify records and scam everyone in what you consider the largest and glorified event in trapshooting?

 

Not sure anyone was really defending it; simply pointing out that it is neither unique nor the most egregious example in sports.

There is no question in my mind that the ATA should find a way to strip the GAH title from the shameless cheater. Doing so would go a LONG way in getting the ATA's reputation and credibility headed back in the right direction. The haters will always find something to be miserable about but the reasonable ATA shooters (95%+) would appreciate the correction, no matter how messy, and would certainly revel in the pleasure of seeing Mr. Bickle officially get what is undeniably his rightful title. It is incredibly obvious what the right thing is to do. Let's just hope the ATA has the sense and courage to find a way to get it done.

If there are any major legal hurdles I would happily contribute to a fund to help defray the costs.

-Gary

 

Gary.....Are you sure no one is defending this? I am not so sure.

 

Rosey

No, I'm saying that every sport has had and will have cheaters. The cheaters need to be dealt with.

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/mostwanted.html

 

That's right. If you have proof that someone was cheating they should be dealt with. If you let it go you only promote cheating.

 

Stefkovich is now on the 23, his best handicap score since the Grand is a 90, and he still has the 100 on his record.

 

Integrity has always been one of the biggest parts of sports, it does appear to be lacking in many venues now days ... If a person has to cheat to win, the only person they are kidding is themself being as there is no glory in cheating they have accomplished absolutely nothing ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Right on Bill.

 

Does the CHC have a voice on any action that needs to be taken. There was a rule change effective for 2015 Target year about filing complaints, 14 days after the fault was discovered, It is in one of the August 2014 Minutes. What appears to me there is an on going investigation.
Dr.longshot

 

I believe the CHC initiated the action. I am not sure the investigation is on going.

What is obvious from a little poking around is they did take targets from shooters and yardage was given after the fact.

I expect they have done all they will do and there is nothing left but to read the next minutes when published.

 

AND, the cheating SOB is still registering targets with absolutely no consequences for his actions.... I don't know about you guys, but, this, alone, tells me all I ever want to know about the ATA..... Just sayin' ya know?

 

Dan you and I have known this to be true for years. When you have a president like Taylor what would you expect. I sleep well at night knowing that the ATA gets none of my daily fee money anymore. Brad

 

Seriously you guys want to vacate the GAH title because you think he cheated. Really though, what is the ATA to do?

I'm not privy to whatever investigation there was. But did the ATA remove the targets from the shooters because they didn't shoot them, or because the club couldn't produce the score sheets? If it was the latter, did the guy really get caught cheating? I'd say no, the club only got caught violating a rule and as a result the shooter was penalized also.

So absent those targets, did he still shoot enough, with a low enough average to earn the reduction to the 18 yd line? If yes, then where did he cheat? You'll say he 'target managed' to keep from getting earned yardage. News flash guys, we've all seen target managers from all yard lines except the 27. It happens. It's tough to catch and tougher to prove.

You can dislike the system in place, but if you can't prove he cheated then it's really tough to take away the title.

Personally, I think the guy gamed the system, target managed his way to the 18 and had a great day when it counted. It sucks, but I don't think the ATA has any recourse to change the results of the GAH.

 

Once the Integrity is eliminated there will be nothing or any reason to shoot no matter what the organization ... If anyone knows that any rule was violated for sure it should be followed up on immediately not a year later ... If the EC or BOD turned their head the other way knowing of any violations they should be removed and replaced with reputable people immediately, not wait another year ... Then they should be banned from every running for office again ... The EC and BOD are supposed to answer to the members they do not, they answer to no one ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

http://espn.go.com/chicago/story/_/...s-chicago-team-us-championship-suspends-coach
Now this group did the right thing. People broke the rules and they take the title away.

 

"did the guy really get caught cheating? I'd say no" ..... really ?????

I shot registered targets Sunday ... I looked at the score sheets ... checked my score ... I watched them imprint my plastic card ... shot with a full squad ... talked to many others that were there ....

So .... if the club .... lost, ate, burned, made paper air-planes, or anything else with those sheets .... do you think I could at least 'prove' that I shot them ????

 

I don't think we will ever be privy to the investigation but I would love to read the report.

 

A shooter pays his money to shoot registered ATA targets by the hundred or fifty and some inept club loses their records/score sheets?? Reimburse the club for fees paid to file those (lost) scores while removing them from the shooters shooting record? Not only that but give him some extra real estate in addition? I smell a foul quiet odor attempting to keep all of this sort of thing hushed.

Would you be satisfied having a few hundred of your targets removed after all the time and money you paid out? Or being blessed with some extra real estate you didn't earn? Sometimes actions speak louder than words and I think wishbone is spot on with his thoughts.

HAP

 

User1, who has the burden of proof? Does the ATA have to prove that you didn't shoot them, or do you have to prove that you did. Sure you can line up your 'sqaud mates' and you can all claim you shot the targets.

My point is, if the ATA has to prove he didn't shoot them, how do they do that? I don't think they can. What they can prove is that the club doesn't have the score sheets as they are required to. He can say he watched the club imprint his card, all the people at the shoot said the same thing, 'we all shot'. At the end of the day all we have is a supposed shoot with no records as required by rule.

What i don't understand is the reason to not shoot the targets? If you have enough targets to avoid penalty yardage and none of the scores you did shoot earn yardage and registering more targets can't result in further reductions what exactly did he gain by registering targets he didn't shoot?

I think the ATA's position on this could be...nothing he did would have impacted the yardage he shot at the Grand. I suspect the powers at the ATA would really like to strip the title from him but they can't find the reason within the rules to do it. Would you all prefer they say, 'the hell with our rule book, we think you cheated so we're taking your title away'?

If they do that where does it stop? Next year some guy on the 22yd line attends nothing but big shoots and carries a 93 average into the Grand. Never earned a yard at any shoot. Breaks 100 in the GAH and beats a prerennial 27ydr in the shoot off. ATA steps in and says, 'you've attended a lot of big shoots but have never shoot well enough to earn yardage. We think you cheated along the way so we're stripping your title and giving it to the other guy.'

 

Dan,

I'm not familiar with PITA so my question is,

With all due respect, what could PITA have done differently with the GAH winner with the same information that the ATA had? edit: information that we know of.

 

"What they can prove is that the club doesn't have the score sheets as they are required to." ....... Club ... not me.

"At the end of the day all we have is a supposed shoot with no records as required by rule." I am only required to keep a record on my paper card ..... You TAKE my targets for what the club has done or not ..... and we have a big problem ..... unless I know I am in a no win.

"Sometimes actions speak louder than words" ..... says a lot ....