One ounce just for safety reasons!

There have been a lot of posts about gun failures in the last year. Could be just a popular topic. That could explain it. Or not.

Did we ever consider that our guns are also getting a little long in the tooth? Or consider that the 3 dram load used to be 1200 fps or less? Now we have people at the line shooting 1300 fps loads that are 1 1/8 ounce boomers.

less pressure = more safety !

 

Do you think a 1 oz pay load would be marginally safer than a 1 1/8 th load ..? If you do, why and to what degree ..? This is obviously an assumption, and you have nothing to back up the statement based on actual finding or do you ..? If there is an obstruction in the barrel and you fire a 1/2 oz load behind it you got a problem, though probably to a lesser degree ... Guns (barrels ) are proof tested and are deemed safe until you add the possibility (probability) of human error, then all proof testing results go out the window ... I always say if or when in doubt DO NOT SHOOT or at least wait until I clear the area and then have fun ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Do shotguns have "proof rated markings" as far as pressures are concerned?

 

There are several to many articles available on "Google" ( google is your friend for information ) , and there are some that say all barrels are tested and others that say random testing is the standard in the industry today ... I did not see anything that said anything about "proof markings" but it seems like it would be part of the process or should be any way ... I did not take the time to read all of the information but would hope that something more conclusive than the ones I read are on the site ... There is a wealth of information on procedures and standards from one extreme to the other ... Interesting and lots of good reading on there ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Correct

 

How does 1300 fps 1 1/8 load equal 3 drams?

 

My feeling is we need to go to a maximum one once load!! A little cheaper, less recoil and I think it would help equal the playing field (just a little) on the shorter yardage shooters. Truthfully 7/8 once would even be better. Of course the big dogs are still going to win but 27 yards with 7/8 once is a little tougher than 7/8 from the 20. Before you ask, this is just my opinion! I have no dats to back my theory.

 

One ounce would eliminate perfect scores from the 25 and back.

Safer too.

 

I was shooting at Red Mountain a few years back, just smoking targets from the 27 and leaving nothing to chance ... After shooting the first 50 targets (down 1) get more shells and happen to notice the Nitro 27's I was shooting were 1 oz, - 8's which I never would of done on purpose ... Long story short I broke a 97 with those One Oz loads, got to make you think ... I lost that event by 1 target, can't tell you how many times I wondered if I had been shooting 1 1/8 th oz if I would of won it ... Second guessing is always easy but I would bet money that the seasoned shooters will still break the winning scores more times than not ... I would not place money on any gun with a 1 oz versus 1/ 1/8 with an obstruction in the barrel is going to make a heck of a lot of difference one detonated ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It seems there is an excessive amount of these incidents happening.
I've been shooting since the early 70's and I don't remember things like this happening.
I used to shoot Buddy shoots, and some of the shells those guys shot makes me cringe.
Most shot 870's, 12's, 1100's or BT 99's. Some of those guns were not in the best of condition, yet no failures.
Everyone had their recipe for a shell . You would have needed a dictionary size book to list them all.
Some of those shells looked horrible. One shooter used to put a few grains of Bullseye on the primer before the Herco went in.
He said that got everything "cooking real good". WOW.

So is it the Arrow or the Indian ?


Regards....Gerald

 

Fester,

A one OZ. load will make no difference in the scores from the 25 or 27 yard line. They will also make no difference in the amount of gun failures that happen. We used to shoot 3 1/4 dram and 1 1/4 oz. for the bunker competition. Then they went to 7/8 oz. of shot and the scores went up. How do you explain that? Roger C.

 

Roger, get out of that Arizona sun.

If the best in the ATA could shoot the same scores with 1 ounce loads they would be using one ounce loads. They only shoot
1 1/8 because they cant shoot 1 1/4. Are you aware the ATA does not allow 1 1/4 ounce?

 

Fester,
You are in a discussion that is way over your head. I have been shooting ATA for 42 years. Have you ever shot bunker? The loads are 7/8 oz. The second shot at a target is a very long shot and the targets are crushed by the 7/8 oz. loads. Pick a post you know something about and then go for it you are above your pay grade on this one. Roger C.

 

I know, if 1 oz is safer than 1-1/8 and 7/8 is safer than 1 oz and safety is the concern, not who is mixing up what recipe to give them and edge. Let make the max load 1/2 oz or better yet, let's just BAN shooting all together or better yet, let's BAN guns. Then no one will ever get hurt.....Take up golf instead. No, wait, golf has a higher death rate than shooting...Let's BAN golf also. Car racing? No, to dangerous. Alligator wrestling? No, same thing...I don't know. I think piper is a new troll, not a new member....IMHO

 

Think about it, If the shooter next to you turns and shoots you in the leg (by accident of course) with a one ounce load, would it hurt any less then an ounce & one eighth? Why would one ounce be safer? The only thing a reduction to one ounce would accomplish would be a handicap for the lower class shooters. The cream always rises to the top!.

 

Cream might rise to the top but it'll take more churnin' to turn it into butter from the fence!

 

Gee Jack...by that statement you made we are to assume you do not know there is less pressure in a load that is one ounce. We are also to assume you cant follow the thread topic. It is not about shooting someone. It is about the pressures required for that size payload.

I will play along Jack. You can't get it.

 

I'm missing the connection between the pressure, the velocity and the shot load weight as they relate to exploding barrels. My 1280 fps 1 oz loads produce a shade over 9100# peak chamber pressure which is within less than 2% of the pressure my 1200 fps, 1 1/8 oz handicap loads produce. The last time I worked with it, PSI was PSI whether it was produced by 1 oz of shot or 1¼ oz of shot, and it's PSI, not shot weight, that blows up guns. (Of course, all bets are off if those 1300 fps boomers are being created by the morons who have no idea what pressure their loads generate and are interested only in what their little backyard chronos tell them.)

 

DAVIDSON, you miss my point. Yes, 1 oz does create less chamber pressure. The shell pressure is not the hazard in the equation. I believe the problem lies with the fools within the game. When I shot International Trap, 1 1/4 oz were the shells used. Today, they shoot 24 Grams (Approx. 7/8 oz) and produce better scores then we did, without the recoil. Maybe, my using an example of bodily harm was not for everyone's understanding. There was a time when registered trap was shot with 1 1/4 oz loads If you dig into the history, I think the same excuses that were used when that was reduced to 1 1/8 max are almost the same as are being aired today. I was around for that reduction and will God willing, be around for the next one. And for the record, I do get It! You still haven't explained why 1 oz would be safer!

 

Someone has to explain to you why less pressures in the chamber could lessen the number of barrels failing. Really?

You said there was a time when 1 1/4 ounce loads were used. That is an empty statement from someone that fails to grasp the idea of chamber pressure. Mentioning 1 1/4 ounces excludes the pressure and velocity. Was that 2 1/2 drams or 3 drams?

Do I have to explain why 1/2 stick of dynamite is more dangerous than a whole stick? Is this that complicated for you?

I am betting the majority of the trap world gets it. Less kaboom can mean less ouch!

 

Yes my Fabarma Axis is marked Proof Tested to 1600 bars, that is foreign proof testing from Italy by the Mfgr.


Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant......................................Dr.longshot

 

On my 1 ounce loads I use the #9 Axis RS 12 Choke tube which is Extra Full, and produces patterns, that Curl the Hair on Neil Winstons Head, as he will not pattern those Caesar Gurini and Fabarms Axis chokes to prove himself wrong.

That extra full choke tube gives me relatively better patterns w/1 oz loads. Which had me in Doubts till I tried them. Now amost all my re-loads are 1 oz using Promo or 700-X at 1290fps

Less ejecta = less pressures as a general rule, I never load anything more than 10,300 psi

Yours in Sport
Gary Bryant...................................Dr.longshot

 

Two things I've learned so far. One is that the primers in reloading a shot shell have a great deal to do with the pressure. As much as 1500psi between one primer and another according to the Lyman Shot Shell reloading book. Also the wad has an effect on the pressure. Could it be that the exploding barrels are from non factory ammo. Could these exploding barrels be the work of some refreshments consumed while reloading thereby causing the problem. So should we not decide first if the ammo used in the exploding barrels were factory or reloaded shells then go from there.

 

Been shooting trap for 4 or 5 years. I shoot about 1000 rounds a month average. I had a failure with a new 1100, the gun figured out a way to fire on a bolt less than fully closed...... stock fine, barrel fine, extractor missing but bolt looked ok and a couple pieces missing from the trigger......... Nitro27 7.5shot 1 1/8 oz, new. Remington replaced the gun 100%. I have not seen a barrel failure. Reading this forum and a couple other sites it seems there are actually very, very few barrel failures. I suspect that the number of failures, whatever that might be, would not change with a reduction in shot weight. Seems most reloads fall into a narrow band of pressure numbers with different shot weights.... 10000 psi is still 10000 psi........ Factory will attempt to stay safe with pressures but will sell ammo with max ATA velocities and reloaders will still push the envelope. Just my opinion.......... Larry

 

Do most one ounce loads have 10,000 psi? I doubt it.

 

If they did they would be dang fast!

 

Just did a very quick review of Lymann 5th edition. Numerous one ounce loads are near, at, or over 10,000psi. Some 7/8 loads do the same. Did not look real close but most are ATA legal for velocity.... 10,000 psi is 1o,000 psi............ Larry

 

LOL numerous or most? The smaller the payload with the same powder the lower the pressure. Those that are high pressure are dang fast. Check any of Alliant's loads. One ounce loads low pressure with same powders.

Look closer. 10,000 psi is unnecessary pressure for one ounce.

 

Doc gets it!

 

You do need a good burn rate to get clean burning, and most loads are at 10,000psi, This alleviates BLOOPER Loads, If you look at 20ga and 28ga loads most are over 10,000psi.

I used to load Green Dot 18grs 1 1/8th tens of 1,000s of them, then the Plant burned down, and I changed powders,

Those 18 grs of Green Dot were very slow loads, had a real tight pattern, approx. 1120 fps if memory serves me right.

GB........................................DLS

 

1 oz load American Select 8800 psi--1 1/8 oz load 10,000 psi @ 1200 fps.

Smaller bores increase pressure and speed to overcome inefficient smaller bores. Not comparable!