Emergency By-law Amendment To Be Voted On !

Are any of our ATA Delegates willing to post their recent letter from the ATA advising them of the upcoming vote at the annual meeting, regarding amending the ATA By-laws to exempt the Presidential Honorarium ($16,500 shotgun) from the longstanding rule that members of the Executive Committee shall serve without compensation?

I think some ATA members would appreciate reading the letter for themselves.

Gee, and I always thought the President's gun violated that provision until the Board of Directors approved the Accountable Plan in 2010.

I still wonder why the ATA did not issue IRS Form 1099's for this compensation until about 2007. And why didn't all Past Presidents clearly identify their gun purchase in their expenses?

Yes, and I am aware that asking questions causes one to be looked upon as a 'basher' and 'hater.' I apologize for seeking answers. However, safeguarding our ATA is more important in my opinion.

Note: I'm on record that other than a health and safety issues that pose imminent danger, I oppose Delegates being required or choosing to make hasty decision on short notice. It's not necessary and it often causes mistakes. (the many changes of the Target Year; age of a Veteran; and ATA fee increase without notice to gun clubs quickly come to mind)

HB

 

THE DELEGATES SOME TIMES ONLY HAVE MINUTES TO DIGEST THE PROPOSALS HANDED TO THEM. THEN THEY MUST VOTE ON THEM. If the delegates all had the organizations well being as their goal, most of the problems created by the EC and BOD would have been averted. They should make a trade, let them have the gun or travel expenses, one or the other but not both. It is time to take the users out to the wood shed and give them a stern lecture. Roger C.

 

The president also gets $20,000 for petty cash to use any way he see's fit ... It pays well to Volunteer ... I heard this from a reliable source, not sure how that gets on the books ... That's all probably on a need to know basis ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Where do Robert's Rules regarding by-laws changes enter into the picture?

 

wpt,

I believe that was noted in the Robert R. Glatz report to the ATA back in July 2010.

And look this recommendation offered by CPA Glatz, 2006 ATA Volunteer of the Year :

​

So let me get this straight . . . . this was recommended back in July 2010 . . . . as a result of an investigation, the Illinois Attorney General suggested back in early May (2016) that the ATA bring the By-Laws up to date to show the BOD approval of the annual presentation of the $16,500 commemorative shotgun for the ATA President . . . and just days ago Delegates were sent a letter advising them that they will be voting on this amendment to the existing By-Laws at their annual meeting on August 10th ?

 

HistoryBuff, Do you have an e-mail address? Send me a PM Roger C.

 

What is the emergency?

 

This group has known they were breaking the by-laws. The AG said they are breaking by-laws and they waited until now to notify the delegates? Why?

 

Because the BOD does not meet until August at the Grand American?

 

Because the methodology/rules for changing by-laws are in the ATA By-Laws. Not sure what Robert's Rules have to due with it.

 

multifired....smell some coffee. They could have notified the delegates months ago. They did not have to wait for any reason.....unless of course they did not want the delegates talking with the locals. They would not be that type people tho.....only Hillary types would stoop that low.

 

It is the way they do business, but not giving anyone (Delegates) any amount of time to think about it they force the issue to get their (EC's) agenda's passed ... If the Delegates know for sure what they are voting on and the ramifications of, they probably wouldn't pass ... Corruption in its finest hour ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It appears 10 days is all that is needed, and that is mailed, not received.

 

Not enough time to make a good decision on behalf of the Members ... 10 days ??? Nope ... not good ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Half of them were probably on their way out to Sparta when their mail arrived to their homes.

 

I don't think most Delegates gave any thought nor even reviewed those written regulations which have guided our Association since 1924. But some surely knew.

If our Delegates had taken the time to read that long-standing book of "do's and don't's" I would think (and hope) that most would have clearly understood that members of the Executive Committee "shall serve without compensation" meant that they could not approve the Accountable Plan which granted the Presidential Honorarium ($16,500 shotgun; i.e. compensation) without first amending those very By-Laws to provide for its exemption. Our By-Laws have always provided for the reimbursement of approved expenses. And most Delegates I know accepted their nominations to give back to the sport . . . not get back something in return.

It would seem that every Delegate who voted in the affirmative of the Accountable Plan, actually did so in violation of our By-Laws. They passed a motion which conflicted with provisions within existing By-Laws. And I'm supposed to believe that not one Delegate, E. C. Member nor our ATA Legal Council ever thought to check the By-Laws?

You don't make a decision and then amend your By-Laws . . . . you first amend your rules to permit authority for change. Then again, for many decades our elected officials not only failed to adhere to the "serve without compensation" By-Law, but not concerned that the shotgun was not clearly reported in the President's expenses, or treated as taxable income, or even gave thought that just maybe, the ATA should have been issuing an IRS Form 1099.

Remember, today it takes 825 new ATA memberships each year to pay for the President's gun. And that's before their plastic and average cards are mailed to them.

May I repeat, I hope and pray that someday soon, our Board of Directors start paying attention to each and every new proposal by, asking questions, reviewing ATA By-Laws, and demand answers that are supported by actual documents. Their failure to provide oversight of our Association (their duty) may someday harm our 501(c)(3) charitable status. It has already caused many members to think our leadership believes they are exempt from the rules.

 

I'm not following the problem with the "Accountable Plan" and the gun? It would seem odd to me if the plan addresses the gun, since that is compensation, not a valid reimbursable business expense of the President. An "accountable plan" is a tax term that governs the reimbursement of valid business expenses incurred by someone on behalf of the business. For example, if you don't keep proper records of your business miles in accordance with the accountable plan rules, any reimbursement from your employer will either have to be returned, or taxed to you. It is good that the ATA adopted an accountable plan, as any business is required to follow the accountable plan rules anytime they reimburse someone for business expenses.

On the other hand, the gun is clearly compensation for past service, and should be reported on a W-2 (if employee, which all officers are), or a 1099 if not an employee (board members). It is not a business expense incurred by the President, and is not an expense reimbursement; it is simply compensation. Which of course is not allowed under the current bylaws and has lead to this new issue.

 

Thank you HB for presenting the "Clear" facts on this issue.

Our leaders, past and present seem to think nobody is watching over them.

The next step is to get them to admit they have been WRONG, and correct their misgivings.

And BAT seems to have a very good reasoning on TAX law...Thank you also.

As BAT stated:
On the other hand, the gun is clearly compensation for past service, and should be reported on a W-2 (if employee, which all officers are), or a 1099 if not an employee (board members). It is not a business expense incurred by the President, and is not an expense reimbursement; it is simply compensation. Which of course is not allowed under the current bylaws and has lead to this new issue.

 

I have been alerted by some legal-types that there could be some other serious consequences. It was explained like this:

A group of people handed out mega rewards for a large time to friends that they know. They also knew they would be treated the same way, reaping the same reward. The monies to pay for these rewards came from a non-profit. The action(s) to give these rewards/gifts were in violation of the non-profit organization by-laws.

You tell me what the consequences could be. I am not a legal-type.

Merlo out

 

Thank you Bat,

Your final sentence says it all.

I too am glad for the establishment of the Accountable Plan, but due to its purpose in providing guidance and financial oversight, it should never have been under control of the Executive Committee. I was sorry to see Paul Shaw removed as Chairman without first being informed. He's another good member who, regrettably, our organization has pushed aside.

The only "new issue" I assume you meant, arises as a result of the establishment of the 501 (c) (3) approval for the ATA. If memory serves me, there were some pretty knowledgeable members involved in the conversion process from the 501(c)(7) to the 501(c)(3) when it was initiated back in 2004. So, I'm pretty sure they discussed the issue of the annual purchase of a President's gun and its potential bearing on obtaining and continuance of the association's non-profit status. And since this relates to the issue of "compensation" prohibited by our By-Laws, and the majority of Directors believe the cost of the commemorative shotgun is not excessive and have given their approval, the amendment of our By-Laws must be made.

Since I have not seen the current Accountable Plan myself, I'll accept your premise that it may not address the President's gun. However, please know that at one time it most certainly was included in the Plan, which also capped the honorarium at $16,500, a value that could only be increased with approval from Board of Directors. I will make an attempt to obtain a current copy of the plan for my files and would appreciate learning when the Presidential Honorarium was removed from the Accountable Plan (if it truly was).

I seem to recall our late friend Pat Ireland once reporting in a forum discussion that Presidents had been purchasing honorarium shotguns for 40 years that he was aware of. And wasn't 2006 or 2007 the first year 1099's were issued to all living presidents who received a gun? I was also told that one of our Presidents made the decision put up most of or all the money for his shotgun, but I have no verification to prove my hearsay statement. Stand up thing to do in my opinion.

I also recall a conversation I had with 3 ATA members while sitting under the beer tent at the Grand American several years back. I remember telling them that if I were ever President of the ATA, the gun gift would stop. I thought it was excessive and more importantly I stated the thoughts expressed in my above post, calling the practice deception and saying that I put deceivers in the same group with liars and cheaters and it was my hope to drive all those kind of people from our sport. I should note that those 3 members all are well known, gave a great deal of their time to the ATA and for that I am most grateful.

To be clear, my opposition to the Presidential gun is not because I don't think Presidents are undeserving of a nice commemorative gift for their long service. I probably only know a portion of the time each has spent on the job and of the many unpleasant and/or decisions they struggled with. While I've always opposed the gift because I felt it was in violation of our existing By-Law rules, my main disagreement is simple : ($16,500 divided by $20 membership = 825 new members annually). I believe the value of the gift is currently excessive, just as I did back when the ATA needed to relocate (2003) and had no money to do so. I'd still like to see the ATA minutes certifying that the gun gift was initially approved by our Board of Directors. Yes, I am aware that many disagree, but I'm still entitled to my opinion. For the time being, this is still America isn't it?

I imagine things will turn out just fine - the amendment will be approved - and then a hasty return to business as usual.

I would however, hope you will agree with me, that our association would be better served if we all paid more attention, asked more questions well in advance of voting on most proposals, and when necessary, took time to review our history to see how the issue at hand was dealt with in the past.

 

When do we get those guns back?

 

Shout out to a guy that used to be on here often. That fellow that named himself after a virus and knows everything about the by-laws. A shout to that guy. Please tell us you never took a gun. Tell us you never took a gun because it is against the by-laws. A shout to you the "self proclaimed by-law expert".

This thread is all about the cronyisms and good 'ole boy, trinket loving, and butt sniffin crowd that has ruined the organization and the sport.

All you corrupt cronies - - a shout out to you fellows also. Come hither and tell us you do this for the love of the sport.

And where is the VP that said the ATA is in good hands? That Terri person. Where is Terri? Where are the cronies?

 

No HB, I wasn't clear on that, by "new issue" I meant the proposal to amend the bylaws to allow compensation. An "accountable plan" for a 501(c)(3) is no different than any other business. All they do is require the organization to require employees, officers, board members etc. to substantiate valid business expenses before being reimbursed, or in the case of advances - to substantiate within a certain time frame and return any unsubstantiated advances. If someone does not comply with the accountable plan requirements, any reimbursement they received is taxable and or has to be returned.

My feeling on the gun is that it is probably not an unreasonable amount for the years of service. Others disagree, and I understand that as well. They have been doing this for many, many decades, and if I was aware of it, any other members could have been aware of it since I recall reading about it in T&F over 20 years ago. My guess as to why this continued in apparent conflict with the bylaws is simply that when this started, they looked at it as a gift, not as compensation. That mentality just carried over for years. I can see many board members believing this, but many attorneys and CPAs were there and the conflict should have been addressed a long, long time ago.

I'm fine with amending to allow compensation to be paid as far as the gun goes. I'm fine with them ceasing the practice also. They should do something to cover situations where there might be a technical failure of the accountable plan rules so every small error is not automatically a violation of the bylaws. If someone doesn't supply his receipts for travel within 30 days (or whatever timeframe the plan provides) it will be taxable (compensation), but still might have been a valid business expense, and should not be considered a violation of the bylaws.

 

I have a problem with anyone who "volunteer's " for the Love of the sport then gets what amounts to approx $36,000 for a year as president and prior to that expenses paid while attending shoots on behalf of the members , yet they avoid any contact and want a place to go and hide from those same members they claim to represent ... Want to "Volunteer", sure how much does it pay ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Somehow I never got paid for running Trapshoots at my club for many years. I see sacrificing weekends, hours loading traps, creating and mailing out programs and much more meant little. Where do I file my claim for some compensation?

 

Bat, you sound like an attorney defending the cronies.

Just to be clear again Bat. The guns were NOT permitted according to the by-laws. If you got a gun then I suggest you give the gun back.

Who gives a rats ass how they looked at it. It was not permitted. You expect us to act like we knew it wasn't permitted but they/you did not. Again it is in the by-laws. It was kept hidden.

No Bat...It should not have been done. Not addressed. It should not have been done!

Yes Bat....it should.

Quit defending the indefensible. If you have a gun return it. If one of your pal has a gun then tell him likewise. Don't bother me with the BS.

 

Davidson,

Guess most of it went over your head. I didn't defend anyone. I stated that as far as I'm concerned, I don't have a problem with the gun from a dollar amount standpoint. They can amend the bylaws to allow compensating the officers, directors etc, or they can stop the practice, fine with me either way, but they must operate in accordance with their own rules.

In response to earlier questions of how the ATA did this in conflict with the bylaws starting decades ago - I gave my guess of how it got started. Doesn't defend it, just telling you how it likely started.

 

It might have started with $200 Model 12's or 1100's and morphed into $15,000 to $20,000 Krieghoffs!

 

Embezzlers probably started with candy bars. Same difference in my opinion. It was and is against the by-laws. It should stay against the by-laws. You will find honest men when they return the guns.

 

The same VP's that happily accepted an illegal gift of a firearm are the same VP's that said the Potterfield offer for the youth shooters was not in the best interests of the ATA. The membership should be concerned about the 501 C3 status of the ATA and what having board members who allow the EC to violate those laws and what will become of that 501 C3 status down the road, not to mention the Pull 2012 investigation that hasn't been resolved.

Just because a board member is on route to Sparta, or hasn't had time to study the issue is no excuse for failure to know and follow the bylaws or the laws of a 501 C3. No one should be surprised if sanctions for the ATA and or the Board members and EC members are to come about, be it from the Illinois State or Federal tax officials. Ezeliel 33

 

Who got the gun?

 

Looks correct .... Oh well .... so much for hope by elections ....

 

Really, did anyone have any doubts about the outcome? Just pack your bags and get ready to head out to Cardinal Center next week. Prepare yourself for great targets and much closer amenities-just like we are!

 

I was sorry to hear of the passing of Glenn Lash at the meeting.
My condolences to his family and friends.

 

Great guy. He'll be missed!