Failure to Fire not clear : ATA

This from the ATA:

Two (2) failure to fires are allowed and shot over per sub event
 Targets thrown “on time”, within legal limits and not voluntarily shot at by the contestant are NOT allowable Failures to Fire
 Failures to Fire are usually the result of mechanical (gun) or ammunition problems
 The Scorekeeper is required to mark the scoresheet (“F1”, “F2”, etc.) when failures occur
 For HAA and HOA shoot offs – one (1) Failure is allowed in each of the 3 disciplines
 During Doubles, when the single operation of the trigger results in the shooter being unable to fire at the second target (the gun fires both shells at once or “machine gunning” occurs) it is considered a Failure to Fire on the first target.

So is a flinch a failure to fire?

Failure to fire are "usually the result of " --then what are the others.

Was this voted on?

 

Flinch is, so is no shell. Most clubs, even state shoots and Grand don't enforce it because the kids don't have time to learn all the details of the rules. I learned the double F2F rules once, now they have changed so I only sorta know them now.

I do the best I can, don't cheat, and I should be fine.

 

If I may inject a bit of history here . . . . . . when trapshooting using inanimate targets (glass balls and clay pigeons) evolved (1880's), the sport continued using rules established for live bird shooting. The game of trapshooting was formed to simulate wing shooting which was hunting quail, grouse, pheasant, etc. If a hunter forgot to load a shell in his gun and attempted to take down a pheasant, he "lost" that bird.

Trapshooting rules were no different and there were very few reasons entitling a shooter to a second try.

As our sport evolved some favored higher (near perfect) scores over winning scores so they made the game easier. Others felt the game should be challenging and winning scores were most important over perfect scores. The debate continues today. I'm one of those who strongly believes that no sport should be easy. I don't subscribe to the position that it was necessary to decrease the difficulty of trapshooting in order to keep existing competitors and introduce new shooters into the game. I believe perfect scores should be something to marvel at and only seen occasionally.

There have been many rule changes which have contributed to the high scores we see today. The Failure to Fire rule is just one of them. Here is the rule governing lost targets for shooters in 1934. Hope you find it interesting.

Enjoy Our History !

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The game has been dumbed down over the years from giving everyone who attends a trinket to making excuse's and excusing shooter error to some degree ... If a shooter flinches it should be a lost target, same with not loading your gun , and or having a shell misfire ... They narrowed the field to make it easier, slowed down and shortened the targets , what they need to do it make the targets as big as pie pans and have indicators on the trap house to let the shooters know where the target will be going to help eliminate the sore losers or have a device to throw the targets where the shooters is holding his or her gun, this will increase the fun for many who want to compete but are not competitive ... Then having a shooter try to guess where the next target will be going is getting out of hand and it reflects in the posted scores ... Shooters need do overs and or a rule so you can keep shooting until you hit them rules ... This will make the shoot offs a lot more exciting and give shooters something to do way past bed time ... Whats wrong with this picture, whats next ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

What should be "clear", is that recent "rule changes" were to "protect" those at the top.

A very bad "flinch" can result in "calling a legal target" and "jerking" the "gun" hard enough to "fire", at the same time. So the "FTF rule" needed to include "wording" so a "do over" for this could not be challenged. The "shooter" can "declare" a "FTF", and keep a "perfect" score on the score-sheet, with a simple "FTF-1" and if needed "FTF-2" added .... when the "target" is "thrown" and "involuntarily" fired at. Then "turn-down" any targets "not in the zone" without ANY needed addition on the score-sheet.

Those "in power" feel the membership should not "object" to ANY actions, by trying to "word" the "rule-book" to match their "actions". Then "problems" arise when the unwashed masses try to make sense out of nonsense.

FWIW .... those "in power" know, on any given day one shooter may be "able" to "out-shoot" another shooter, but it is much, much, harder to beat that "shooter" and the "rules" in that shooter's favor.

 

After a lengthy discussion I have been having, this is what it appears to me to be a FTF according the rules that are written today.

A failure to fire, is based on both what is intended of the gun when set to fire and what is the intention of the contestant whether the gun fired or not.

It can be as little as a jumping target causing you to delay your fire (I call this the "oh, crap" moment allowance) which if you calmly withhold your fire, is not considered voluntarily not firing.

It can be if you do fire, such as a doubling event, in which the gun did fire but also fired the second shot not as intended. It also can be if you fire after calling for a legal target and miss, if the contestant declares failure to fire, as if the contestant does declare the referee/scorer knows this was a firing that was not intended and thus is a "failure to fire, as intended" or fired unintentionally causing a miss.

You cannot declare failure to fire when a target is broken. It is always a dead target currently, though maybe in the next round to be fair and give honest contestants a opportunity to not take what they broke unintentionally the ATA will give another chance then as well. It is not the case today though, a target broken in flight is a dead target.

It appears it is here VII. C. 1. The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”: 1. When the contestant fires and fails to break the target whether missed completely or when only dust falls from it. A “Dusted Target,” is a target from which there is a puff of dust, but no perceptible piece is seen; it is not a dead target and does not declare a failure to fire;

You only get 2 per sub event though, it is not every time. It is obvious a "lost" target is not what the contestant intended and they should be able to see another target. Right?

Which is impossible.

 

Glad you mentioned this jhunts,

So, let's see how the old rules dealt with a gun "doubling. (Section 4)

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Can you believe that the rules actually put the responsibility on the contestant for making sure his gun was in proper working order, his shells were good and that he was responsible for loading his shotgun? Simply amazing. Today . . . . "It's not my fault." "I'm not responsible."

And look at how wide those angles were!

I should confess that I'm not a fan of the so-called "established" dead bird either. I prefer the old rule in which a failure to fire on either the first or second target of a pair was called "no targets" (Section 5 (c) and the contestant gets another pair. Seems pretty simple to remember and scores were based on a pair in the air and a shooter making two shots.

What's this in Section 7:

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Life was so much simpler in the old days.

Enjoy Our History !

 

My reply when ask about my score in an event was/is almost always .... I could have broke a 100, but they made me quit shooting before I got there ....

Now .... because "easy targets" still can't get the never-was "leaders" up to their Idol's level, they get "additional tries" .... up to 8 additional fired shells each event by "self-declaration" of "FTF" .... and selective "target presentations", by "no-declaration" ....

As with "sandbagging" .... they are going to get "beat" by their own "rules" when "others" figure-out "they" can use this garbage to their "advantage".

Heck .... with 8 "fired unintentionally causing a miss" mulligans, and maybe a couple of more yards off, I may change my mind about going back to "Sparta" for the "Grand".

FWIW .... if you ONLY get 2 mulligans per sub-event .... it makes you wonder if that is a "reason" some didn't like to shoot two 50 round, 10 per post, sub-events ....