The Blame Game .... some required reading for the immature, uneducated, "ATA" leaders

http://changingminds.org/techniques/conversation/excusing/deflection.htm

"Description"

"When accused, deflect the blame by pointing at others. Say that it was not you and that whatever happened was caused by other people or other things.

You can point directly at specific culprits or you can infer that others are to blame by more subtle means, such as indicating that they had motive, were in the right place, and so on (and that you were not).

When being direct or vague, consider the implications if you could be found out by the people you are blaming. If there may be recriminations, then be less direct.

You can also blame circumstances, the weather and inanimate objects."

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/blameBadBehavior.htm

"Blame Action Loops"
"It is not uncommon for people who engage in blaming behavior to also engage in selfish behavior. And as long as they are getting benefit from it -- whether monetary, emotional, comfort, entertainment or psychological stability -- they will continue to engage in those actions. But realize that most of the time the person is too busy doing the behavior to see their actions in this context."

 

GREAT wisdom from "Terry Dean"

"They do not have to let anyone know the findings" .... "the complaint and cost you, the ATA shooters 3800"

Get over yourself, and look in the mirror .... put it together .... "They do not have to let anyone know the findings (and) the complaint and cost you, the ATA shooters 3800"

 

I'm glad they posted the info, at least it's available this way. As Terry Dean posted, the Attorney General doesn't make public disclosure of these results. I would think the calls for defamation suits on the other site are groundless, just like many of the accusations made here months ago turned out to be. I would guess everyone feels at least a little better now that the AG has actually completed the investigation and put Doc's fears to rest.

 

The findings from the atty general have not been disclosed.

I am sure we will have full disclosure. Not from the ATA - dont be silly. I am confident Merlo or someone on this site that cares about the sport will disclose it. Bat sir, you are not one of them.

 

It is not available this way. I am confident the folks here will give us the straight up report.

Bat,
I wonder tho how much skin you have in the game? What fears do you have?

 

Yeah, if Merlo can get it internally that would be great. I'm as interested in the details as anyone. Fly, no skin off my back, just appreciate the results being available. I don't think (but don't know for sure) the AG releases investigation results to the public, so I'm just glad someone did it. It does seem obvious that there wasn't anything serious enough to warrant further investigation or prosecution etc.

IRS likely will move much, much slower on Doc's complaints, and there is more low hanging fruit i.e. possible errors there because of all the potential minefields with tax disclosures and reporting details. But, again, it looks like Merlo will have to come up with the closing document to satisfy some of you, cause IRS won't release it, even to Doc.

Probably take a while for Merlo to come up with something, will keep checking.

 

Bat
You said

Who released it? I haven't seen the report. You?

Why? What makes it seem that way? You said it was not released? Now it has been?

Have you seen a complaint by doc? Or do you just not like him?

Wanting to see the document is our duty right?

 

Bottom line is they are not available .....isn't that right Bat?

And where is Merlo?

 

This was the post .... "This answer from the audit came from A.T.A counsel, who delt [sic] directly with the ATT. General . They do not have to let anyone know the findings and the complainting [sic] person will have to inquire for the results."

IF .... "This answer" .... "from the audit" .... "came from A.T.A counsel," .... "who delt [sic] directly with the ATT. General" .... Wouldn't the "They" in .... "They do not have to let anyone know the findings" .... be "A.T.A counsel". If so, why would "they", "not have to let anyone know the findings" ?????????

 

Butterfly

"Who released it? I haven't seen the report. You?" What report are you talking about? All I'm aware of is that the ATA included information about the matter in a communication with the delegates.

"Why? What makes it seem that way?" Well, the statement posted said the AG had closed the case and there was no mention of any indictments etc. Seems like a reasonable conclusion based on the ATA statement.

"You said it was not released? Now it has been?" You seem to be referring to a report again. I don't recall saying anything was "released," not sure what you are talking about? ATA simply told the delegates the AG investigation was closed. I'm not sure there are any documents to be released? Do you know? I don't know what comes out of an AG investigation, do they issue written closing documents? Seems possible they may simply have a closing conference and say goodbye, but I don't know for sure.

"Have you seen a complaint by doc?" No.

"Or do you just not like him?" Why say that, I don't dislike the Doc? I mentioned him simply because he is the only person I remember stating that he filed complaints with IRS and AG. There were probably more, but Doc's the only one I remember that stepped-up and actually stated he did it. Maybe other did as well.

 

Based on the ATA statement? So again you admit you have not seen the report by the AG.

And you have never seen the report on this one.

Obviously you dont know. You have not seen a report.

You post like you have a lot of skin in the game.

Your rhetoric makes me think you received a gun from the ATA. I would bet money on it.

 

"Based on the ATA statement? So again you admit you have not seen the report by the AG." Thought I already made that clear a couple of times, I'm not even aware that the AG actually issued a report, and nothing I said references this mystery report.

"And you have never seen the report on this one." Again, I stated that I am unaware of whether the AG issues a report in these situations, and have never referenced any report from the AG.

"Obviously you don't know. You have not seen a report." I agree, when I said I'm not sure if the AG even issues reports in these situations, I am being very clear that I have not seen any report from them. If the AG did issue a report, my guess is that both you and I will see it when Merlo posts a copy.

What about my posts make you think I have skin in the game, whatever that means, or that I received a gun from the ATA? Except for repeatedly trying to answer your questions, all I posted was based on what I read in Kiner's post. I have no reason to believe he made that up, do you?

 

That is all it is. We have Kiner's posts here on record. Kiner could have posted the entire report. He did not.

You know what it means and also know that is true.

I believe you got one thing right...

I too believe Merlo's snitches will get copy. We deal with facts here. Not spin by Kiner's ilk.

 

"That is all it is. We have Kiner's posts here on record. Kiner could have posted the entire report. He did not."

Heck, then why did you waste all that time interrogating me about some report? If you think Kiner is making that stuff up, you could have just said it. You certainly know more about it than I do if you know he could have posted the entire "report." From his post it sounded like he was simply posting text from a communication sent to delegates by ATA. I saw no indication that a report even exists. Like I said, I'm not sure these closed investigations even result in a report that is released by the AG at all.

 

Not saying he made it up. It is Kiner's opinion or it could be communication to the delegates, but it is not the entire report. Someone with your education does not think an audit ended with a phone call and no written report. That crap may fly other places. Not on this forum.

I am sure that being a person with skin in the game you have advised the ATA previously. My suggestion is you advise the ATA to publish the entire findings (whatever they are) before Merlo and his pals dig it up.

Nothing is going away. One of the mods / owners / investor/, or whatever title, posted the forum it not going away and that the forum will be in good hands without him. The snitches are entrenched. For all we know you could be one.

 

"It is Kiner's opinion or it could be communication to the delegates" Well, it certainly looks like it was a communication to the delegates; and that is what he called it, so I don't doubt that is what it was. Someone here can certainly confirm that with another delegate if there is that much skepticism.

Someone with my education is smart enough to admit I know very little about AG investigations. I would guess that when they close an investigation without determining any wrongdoing, there is very little in the way of a "report." The ATA communication that Kiner posted said they did make recommendations, so I would guess there would be at least a letter saying the investigation was closed and no significant issues were found requiring further action on their part, along with a list of the suggestions for improvement going forward. But that's just a guess... and it sounds like you don't know anything more than I do about what they actually do.

Merlo will probably be able to obtain this if it exists.

 

"I would guess that when they close an investigation without determining any wrongdoing" .... interesting way to put it.

"The review did include suggestions which the ATA Executive Committee may consider" .... Why "include suggestions", "without determining any wrongdoing" ??????

Is "wrongdoing" equal to "illegal" in that statement ??????

 

I haven't seen a report that said it was closed. I have not seen a report that said no wrong doing. The only thing I know is someone in the ATA decided not to share with the members. Big mistake.

 

The IL-AG found enough in the "complaint" to "investigate" .... so, trying to imply "no merit" to the "complaint" looks foolish on it's face.

We don't know, what we don't know .... because some feel only self-appointed Kings and Queens in the Game of Thrones "need to know".

 

".... interesting way to put it." Really? I guess the actual statement was "...governance of the association and real property acquisitions were proper, sound, and in complete accordance with Illinois corporation law." I thought "no wrongdoing" was a fair summary of that, but I have no issue if you feel I could have used other wording.

"Why "include suggestions", "without determining any wrongdoing" ??????" As I stated, I am not familiar with an AG investigation, but my guess is they make suggestions of ways to improve procedures in one way or another. It's common when a company has its financials audited, so not a far stretch that the AG offers suggestions to improve procedures, documentation etc. Just a guess on my part though.

"Is "wrongdoing" equal to "illegal" in that statement ??????" I can't say that was what I specifically meant, but yeah, it would be included I guess. What I meant was that, according to Kiner's post, the AG found things to be in accordance with the applicable laws and closed the case. I would think if they found something to be illegal, they would not have said they found things to be in complete accordance with corporation law. Makes sense to me.

 

User, I think the "no merit" wording is common when a complaint alleges a violation of a law, and the investigation finds no such violation. It doesn't mean or imply the complaint wasn't worth looking into in the first place.

 

So.....Kiner's post? Kiner's post has no impact. It is only a post from Kiner. I have seen his posts on this forum before. Not impressive. As one forum member described his posts "disgusting".

No one said that did they? The AG did not say in complete compliance.

If this was about being honest with the members the whole report would have been published.

 

Kiner is the one that posted the wording of the ATA's statement, it's not his wording. Looks like ATA counsel actually wrote it. If you really think they are lying about the case, well, I guess I'm more gullible than you.

"No one said that did they?" Well, actually that is exactly what the statement said. I have no reason to believe ATA is lying about that. Since it appears the ATA's attorneys wrote it, maybe you feel they were lying. We don't know if the AG said exactly that or not, but I would expect the attorneys to be accurate.

I get it though, nothing will satisfy you except copies of actual written communication from the AG's office. I can't help you there.

 

That puts you equal to many .... and that is a shame in my opinion. There is not much trust, when "guessing" is what most are forced to do.

Facts are hard to "spin" .... But, "Just a guess on my part though.", keeps cyber-chat alive, and should given thanks for the offering, but may sadly do little for the trust issues.

Thanks for the reply, what someone "writes", may differ from what others "read".

 

The investigation is still ongoing by the Illinois Atty Generals office, there is a .lot to cover and a lot to Investigate further, as more has come to Light.

 

"Federal" .... With support from "people" like yourself, the "fantastic direction" of the "ATA" will stay on course.

 

This to the top for Bat. BD

 

Kiner posted what Kiner was told, he discovered nothing on his own ... He is a delegate (BOD) and says (has stated) he votes the way the people he represents want him to vote ... The summary of the investigation was posted by the ATA's legal council to the EC and BOD, the Ill AG does not post the final results ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Give "Bat" some credit for posting "Just a guess on my part though" and "I guess I'm more gullible than you" .... to think of how painful posting that had to be, gives hope that Kool Aid may not cause permanent brain damage.

 

You saw a report..you didn't see a report. He says, no, he didn't say no. Very confusing thread. Gossip leads good people in sometimes wrong directions. Suggestion for the day---Contribute proven facts!

 

Big Jack,
Not sure anyone but the chosen few got to see any report (or claim they did) other than the one issued by the ATA's legal council, which was the one that Kiner commented on ... Hide nothing if you have nothing to hide, communication is a wonderful thing especially with all this new age stuff they got going on ... IF the ATA wanted to notify the "Membership" of anything at all it can be done with the push of a button in a new york minute (less than 10 seconds) so there are no justifiable excuses or reasons other than, fill in the __________. (blank) ... Suspicious thoughts are usually brought on by suspicious actions ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

When I was informed the membership would get information on a 'need to know basis", I guess this fell under that category.

Oh well, Merlo, User 1, and others have gotten answers for us.

Thanks boys and girls.

 

I haven't seen a picture of Merlo for awhile, anyone have an update on his whereabouts? I'll be at the Cardinal Center for the SCTP shoot for the next 9 days or so and i won't take a computer with me. I hope someone has a Merlo sighting before then, I'm a worried that the EC is after him. It would be good to know that they haven't managed to silence the best info man out there on the job. The FBI could have used him to investigate Hillary it appears. Go Donald. Brad Dysinger

 

Before you describe ATA leaders as uneducated, maybe you should share your credentials with us!

 

For Target1 ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education

"Education is the process of facilitating learning, or the acquisition of knowledge, skills, values, beliefs, and habits. Educational methods include storytelling, discussion, teaching, training, and directed research. Education frequently takes place under the guidance of educators, but learners may also educate themselves.[1] Education can take place in formal or informal settings and any experience that has a formative effect on the way one thinks, feels, or acts may be considered educational."

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education

"Education is about teaching and learning skills and knowledge. Education also means helping people to learn how to do things and encouraging them to think about what they learn. It is also important for educators to teach ways to find and use information."

"Through education, the knowledge of society, country, and of the world is passed on from generation to generation. In democracies, through education, children and adults are supposed to learn how to be active and effective citizens".

"More specific, education helps and guide individuals to transform from one class to other. Empowered individuals, societies, countries by education are taking edge over individuals stand on bottom pyramid of growth."

As far as my "credentials" ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credential

"Examples of credentials include academic diplomas, academic degrees, certifications, security clearances, identification documents, badges, passwords, user names, keys, powers of attorney, and so on. Sometimes publications, such as scientific papers or books, may be viewed as similar to credentials by some people"

The number of each that I have on that "list" would be a long and boring post .... And , I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express many times.

FWIW .... I find the current "ATA leaders" very "uneducated", by definition ....

 

Uneducated is subjective at best, you can be highly educated and not have common sense, logic, reasoning, knowledge, experience etc ... The happenings over the past 15 or so years have showed and enforced lacking of many attributes needed to make common sense judgement calls for the betterment of the entire Association , not the select few who stand to gain financially from some of the actions ... Street Smarts will more times than not come out on top in certain situations especially if there are no definitive answers in any of the books where the Education is gathered from ... Bad Judgement can usually over rules higher education again this is subjective at best ... The SO Called Leaders have not shown any high degree of Integrity, street smarts, common sense, logic, reasoning, in many to most of the decisions made that should of been made for the betterment of the ATA (Association) over all for many years and its not anticipated that this will not continue based on those in line to cover positions that will be vacated ... Degrees can be put in frames and hanged on a wall, they do nothing or add anything to the value except to the one who read the books and applied it to get passing grades ... They do not help in everyday life and most situations ... If you feel everything is all right, you are part of the problem and no degree can help you ... In life I have acquired paper documents and common sense,logic, reasoning, etc . one can hang on the wall the other gets applied to life and the way it is lived ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

From now on I shall bow to the Supreme Moderator and the Supreme Elite Poster.

 

No need to "bow" .... But, you may want to "grow up" and provide something useful.

I am not seeking approval from anyone, or looking to make cyber-friends, so when you direct anything at me you are wasting your time.

 

My ex-father-in-law graduated from a prestigious local university (Lehigh)with zero common sense. Even though he was an assistant principal of a very large local high school he lacked knowledge of simple tasks. Several examples included "what's that red light on my car's dashboard mean?", they dropped my lawnmower on the front lawn and it's still in the box-how do you get it out",and best of all when I bought him a set of tools including a hammer, pliers, screwdrivers and a pair of vice grips. He couldn't figure out what that last thingy was for. Great guy but lacking something. My son always got the call to change his lightbulbs. His daughter (another teacher)totally matched his skill level.

When I need something built around my house it's a joy to watch someone who barely finished high school calculate in his head exactly what's needed and make it happen. So much for all that education!

 

Knowledge can be obtained, common sense must be born with you. Terrible but true. Some of the most intelligent people that I know, do not have enough common sense to get in out of the rain. Roger C

 

Some people are born with what appears as common sense and these people go thru life and appear to show good or common sense in whatever they do in life whether their position in life is at the top of the totem pole or at a lower level. Some people are well educated and are highly recognized in their profession or their position but do not possess the fundamental common sense that life requires to be totally successful, if it was not in their education they just do not understand it.