It's Unfortunate Stupidity Is Not Painful

The SCTP has left Sparta for 2016 but we have morons proclaiming they will be back in Sparta in 2017 because they have a contract. The ATA and IDNR have an MOU that's now down to three weeks. The vendors are looking at paying still unknown amounts to move large inventories and staffing up for 12-14 days of shooting. The campsites are wide open with very few assigned for 2016. Rauner is already on record showing no concern for the future of the WSC. Two senior state representatives are on record stating their efforts will be focused on selling or shuttering the WSC so not one more dime of state money is wasted. The WSC is dead but the lemmings are still drinking Kool Aid and rejoicing over the fact they got premium camping spots to a shoot that probably won't happen and won't have any vendors if it does. I guess it's true stupidity trumps common sense.

 

What MOU. It was stated that there could be no negotiations until April so I guess they have a blank page. Doesn't matter though since the governor is the one who closed the place and barring a miracle to pass a budget it will take the governor to reopen it.

 

"Stupidity" may get very "painful" ... if the IRS and IL-AG take an interest.

The harder they fight for the "Grand" to be in "Sparta" ... the more attention they draw ... so the quicker the IRS and IL-AG may pay attention ... so fight on, it keeps the "ATA" on the radar.

 

No
It will take a budget that has the funds available to open it. But who really cares at this point? Is this really an issue? Closed is closed!

 

The State of Illinois it appears has exempted itself from prosecution and being forced to honor the lease they had between them and the ATA ... There is no Judge in his right mind who would hear the case and force the IDNR to open under the circumstances when the WSRC has proven itself to be a loser and only adds to the States deficit on an annual basis for the past 11 years to the tune of $23 million plus dollars ... The cost for the ATA to even try and make the State honor said lease would be more than they could recover if all went in a "fantastic direction" as opposed to the way it has the attendance on the decline ... There are somethings in life that its just better off to walk away from and this is one of those unfortunate things that just is not going to get any better ...

The State of Illinois is washing its hands with the WSRC all together , they do not have to and will not take a chance no matter who says what ... The State actually knows more about how much the facility has generated than any body in or who represents the ATA ... The State of Illinois auditors have claimed that the taxes collected has declined since the opening of the WSRC both in the local economy as well and the region, have no idea how that could happen but it did ... Sounds like the Ol' one for me, one for you, two for you, one two for me going on , but it does not matter , that is the way is goes Kimo Sabie ... (Tonto and the Lone Ranger) ... Wish them well, but apply some common sense, logic, and reasoning and move on ... The kool aid drinkers will get over it and if not "Oh Well" ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

MMMMMM not really. In a passed budget without funds to run the facility you most likely would find the authorization to enter negotiations with the ATA and restrictions on what involvement the State would have if any. The big thing is the authorization to negotiate with the ATA which went out the door when the Governor shut the facility down and voided the lease.

 

"ATA" Form 990 (2013) ... "Page 9" "Part VIII Statement of Revenue" ... "Program Service Revenue" ... "2(b)" ... "Membership" ... "1,188,199"

Schedule A "Part 1" ... box "(9)" is checked ... in part, "An organization that normally receives: (1) more than 33 1/3% membership fees ... and (2) no more than 33 1/3% of it's support from gross investment income"

The question is ... how can less than 30,000 members generate "1,188,199" in "membership" ????? Is this a false number to make the "33 1/3% membership fees" look more in line ?????

Same form "Page 9" ... "Part VIII Statement of Revenue" ... "Program Service Revenue" "(2a) Grand American Tournament" ... "2,043,723". Is that entry fees, option money, and added money (by donors), all lumped together ????

FWIW ... the "ATA" uses "Business Code 711210" on "Program Service Revenue" on "page 9". This https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i990.pdf ... lists "711210" as "Spectator sports (including sports clubs and racetracks). A "501(j)" may look more in line with "711210", than a "501(c)(3)" does.

 

You may want to look at pages 51 & 75 of the form 990- looks like they should be filing in different category

GB.........................DLS

 

OK ... one question at a time ....

How can less than 30,000 members generate "1,188,199" in "membership" ?????

"ATA" Form 990 (2013) ... "Page 9" "Part VIII Statement of Revenue" ... "Program Service Revenue" ... "2(b)" ... "Membership" ... "1,188,199"

 

$3,960.66 per member ($1,188,199) ..? Looks like there is something in error or grossly exagerated to balance the books (must be new math) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

WPT: "$3,960.66 per member" ??? New math?? I think you misplaced the decimal point a couple spots in your calc?

User 1 asked: "How can less than 30,000 members generate "1,188,199" in "membership" ?????" MY guess is it is membership dues plus daily fees.

 

To anticipate the next question... the more than 33 1/3 test is not restricted to "membership fees." To put it in plain English it means that more than 33 1/3% of support comes from contributions, membership fees, and gross receipts from trapshooting programs (exempt function income). Trapshooting is the exempt function.

 

Bat, you are right dam WalMart calculation and cell phone ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Why would you guess "daily fees" to be added to "membership" ?????

"daily fees" are more to this question .... Same form "Page 9" ... "Part VIII Statement of Revenue" ... "Program Service Revenue" "(2a) Grand American Tournament" ... "2,043,723". Is that entry fees(including "daily fees"), option money, and added money (by donors), all lumped together ????

 

It's really pretty clear. "Program Service Revenue - membership" represents program service revenue from member activities that are not separately broken out on other lines of question 2. This would include daily fees.

"Grand American Tournament" revenue on 2a would certainly include entry fees. I doubt it includes option money since that is all paid out to shooters and is likely not considered ATA revenue, but instead netted against payouts first. It is possible they include option receipts in revenue, but then they would have to include option payouts in program service expenses. So that one could go either way.

Added money would have nothing to do with it, that is not revenue, just an internal allocation of assets to provide a prize. If what you are really asking about is the money received from donors that is used to fund "added money" payouts, that would not be program service revenue, it would be contribution/grants received.

 

Thanks for the try Bat .... But .... "It's really pretty clear." .... followed by, "I doubt", "likely not considered", "It is possible", "but then they would have to", "So that one could go either way." ....

I guess "It's really pretty clear." means, "It's really pretty clear." that not much is "really pretty clear".

 

No User, the issue in the first paragraph of my response you are referring to is very clear, wasn't followed by "I doubt" or any of your other quoted items. Just offering you some "guidance" on reading a 990.

 

OK Bat ... have it your way. Is "pretty clear", that is now "very clear" ... to be considered absolute ????

You have first hand knowledge what those figures represent ... and you know beyond any doubt that "membership" includes "daily fees", and those items will be the EXACT figures on the 990 in question.

If you have these exact figures please post them.

 

To your first question ... yes.

Where else do you think program service revenue from "daily fees" would be? Most years, they break out the Grand, the satellite grands, youth tournaments, and National Trapshooting Day as the larger single programs, everyday shoots during the year are in a catch-all ... "Membership". Simply meaning all other program service revenue from members throughout the year.

 

Come on Bat ... please answer better than "Where else do you think".

Do you have first hand knowledge of exactly what those figures represent ... and you know beyond any doubt that "membership" includes "daily fees", and those items will be the EXACT figures on the 990 in question.

If you have these exact figures please post them.

 

Why are you so argumentative with someone that is just trying to help you understand what you are reading?

"Program service revenue - membership" consists of annual amortization of life membership dues, annual membership dues, and registered shoot fees ("daily fees"). If you want further breakdown, look at the financial statements, specifically the Statement of Activities.

I have y/e Sept 2013 handy so: amortized life member dues = $57,287, annual membership dues =$486,430, and registered shoot fees =$625,586. Total equals $1,169,303, which also equals "Program Service Revenue - membership" as shown on 990 Part VIII, line 2b.

 

Bat,

No matter what you say, how you say it, the words you use to help explain a tax form to a lay person, those who want to see a conspiracy will see a conspiracy.

 

yes, that is becoming apparent.

 

I have the "2013" and "2014" 990s and Financial Statements "handy". As well as some other fun numbers.

Glad to see you join in duff, you always seem to be able to handle yourself well with a "lay person".

 

Great, you now have the ability to find the answers to your questions for subsequent years also!

 

On more try Bat ... then time to move on.

This is the part of the question I am interested in .... "Do you have first hand knowledge" ?????

 

I already laid out all the parts of revenue that make up the item on the 990 you were interested in. The "exact dollars" you requested, although mine admittedly were from Y/E 9/2013. They tie out "to the dollar" to the 990, showing you exactly what I said they would. You should be able to make the same reconciliation for later years as you have the audited financial statements.

Not sure what you mean by "first hand," since we are dealing with publicly available records, but no, I'm not EC, if that is what you mean.

Hopefully you can now understand what the 33 1/3 test involves.

 

When it comes to the "ATA's" "publicly available records", more are fiction, than not.

My reference to the 33 1/3 ... I started that with "in part". Because if that number is low it would be a red flag for an audit.

If you feel the need use "publicly available records" as facts, that is up to you. I can direct you to "publicly available records" from the "ATA", that are known to be false by the "ATA's" own admission.

Sit back and enjoy the ride ... it is going to get interesting in the near future.

 

User, this is a quote from your post that I was mainly trying to answer for you: "The question is ... how can less than 30,000 members generate "1,188,199" in "membership" ????? Is this a false number to make the "33 1/3% membership fees" look more in line ?????"

The answer is that it is very easy for "less than 30,000 members" to generate $1,188,199 in dues donations and other exempt function income from membership, which is what the ATA's 990 line 2b represents, as opposed to your posting making it sound like "membership fees" is the only thing that the 990 instructions contemplate. You seem to equate only "membership fees" with program service revenue from membership, which is simply wrong. I gave you the exact line items from the audited financial statements that will reconcile "to the dollar" to the line you are questioning in the 990, just as you requested. It really seems you are not interested in the correct answer regarding this issue? Are you saying that audited financial statements are not good enough? I can't help you any more if that is the case.

For anyone else interested in the facts, the dollar amounts for dues and daily registered shoot fees from the audit reconcile "to the dollar" to the amount reported on the 990 part VIII, line 2b.

As far as other publically available records that are known to be false by ATA admission, I'm not sure what those are, but don't believe the audited Consolidated Statements of Activities are included therein.

I'm sure more interesting items are going to be raised, you are correct about that. All I am doing here is pointing out the answer to this direct question of yours.