ATA & Transgender Category(s)

Has the ATA management looked into the rules for a transgender declaration? Could a person be in a male category one week and 6 months later win lady2?

 

How is the procedure going will you be ready by spring?

Marko

 

This matter was discussed some years ago and the ATA Executive Committee adopted a policy for the future by a 4-1 vote. The issue arose when Lady shooter filed a complaint with the ATA when a male shooter who became a female, entered the Women's Category.

 

This sounds interesting. So what did they decide?

 

If Caitlyn Jenner decided to shoot the Grand............?

 

Yes historybuff details please, what year, what did vote say yea or nea? Has the rule ever been used? Don't leave us hanging. Brad

 

Is the word "Lady Shooter" a metaphor?

 

I'll bet the "leave us hanging" thing had something to do with the "hole" discussion in the first place.

 

God make man and God Makes woman, no Doctor in the world can change what God made ... Thats just the way it is ... Most guys who want to or feel like a woman inside turn out to be lesbians according to statistics so once they look like a ugly woman as opposed to an ugly man they can at least get a date ... I'm not buying any of that BS, not now not ever ... Bruce Jenner is just a guy who dresses like an ugly woman who cries all the time trying to prove his point ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

It could be construed that way but it was my intention only to illustrate that a shooter of the female gender initiated a complaint against a shooter who's ATA No. was registered to a shooter of the male gender who was attempting to shoot in the category established for females; also referred to as women and/or lady category.

I am aware that "the general consensus has been - and remains - that the sport of trapshooting is gender neutral: That there are no specific (physical) attributes that favor either gender and/or age group." So, you may disregard the assumed metaphor.

The entire discussion(s) and disposition of the complaint can be read in the ATA Official Minutes from:
August 7, 2002;
December 13-14, 2003 and
April 9, 2003

Here is a summary of those reports for those who are interested :








Enjoy Our History

 

You have to admit tho that silky things feel better against skin than against hairy things. That is what I hear anyway.

 

Of course I have those right here. Oh wait. I didn't know that the ATA even existed in 2002. Wouldn't it have been easier to just post the minutes.

 

I recently received this. Information starts on line 372.

http://www.shootata.com/portals/0/pdf/minutes/4-03minutes.pdf

 

Lady T

You were unaware but for some reason my response was posted before I was finished. I surmise I was in the edit mode when you made your hasty response.

The ATA Minutes are posted on the ATA website all the way back to about 2001 I believe. There is much important information contained within those minutes and I implore readers to view them at their pleasure.

Enjoy Our History

 

As I read this to mean the information or declaration is voluntary until someone objects and then there is an investigation. Does your driver's i.d. change after the change?

If one state has a different rule on driver i.d. then would it depend on the state you are shooting? What is the law in the various states?

 

I'm sorry hard left . . . . I am not familiar with the subject and/or State and Federal laws and therefore cannot answer your questions.

 

Thanks for the info. Really interesting reading.

 

It would be just as valid as any other driver license as all states are required by the Constitution to recognize each others documents.

 

Trap Shooting used to be about ability, class, yardage. Age, sex, race, gender meant nothing. Ability was what made a great shooter. How many targets you broke, how many pigeons you killed. Where would Annie Oakley's fame be if she just shot against Lady 1's and 2's. Split into categories, make it easier, take out the money and anyone wonders why registered trap shooting is going down the tubes. RIBBONS and ALL AMERICANS for everyone who signs up. We're all winners now, don't it feel good. Brad

 

Brad, let's not forget Mrs. Adolph "Plinky" Topperwein !

Many times she posted the highest score beating all men. I'm a huge Annie Oakley fan but Plinky Topperwein was the greatest woman shooter for decades. The Topperweins did so much for the sport by staying on the road visiting small towns and putting on exhibitions at gun clubs to attract interest to the sport.

Plinky was so good that she was a shooting representative for Winchester with her husband Ad. She went on tour for Winchester Repeating Arms with the men, visiting city after city, and her scores were right up there with the men, and sometimes she was the leader.

​

Here's a little about her in the first few years of her shooting.

MRS. ELIZABETH ‘PLINKY’ TOPPERWEIN
San Antonio, Texas
Winchester Repeating Arms Company Representative (1906)
Dead Shot Powder Company (1907)
Texas State Shoot High Professional Average (1908) 461x500
Won Sunny South Handicap Championship (1909)
Winchester Experts in the South​

Mr. and Mrs. Adolph Topperwein, of San Antonio, Texas, the world’s unparalleled fancy firearms artists, and J. Mowell Hawkins, of Baltimore, have just concluded an exhibition trip through Georgia and Florida in the interest of the Winchester Repeating Arms company. “Top” stands, of course without a peer as a fancy shooter. Mrs. Topperwein is a wonder of wonders, and considering her experience, which is all told three years, it is doubtful if there lives any one who has ever equaled her record. A few of Mrs. Topperwein’s wonderful achievements may not be amiss right here. She is the only woman in the world who has ever qualified as a national marksman. She is the only woman in the world who has ever broken 100 straight clay targets, which she has done half dozen times. She has one record of 485 clay pigeons out of 500, all shot in two hours and twenty minutes: she has broken 99 out of 100 at 20 yards. With a .22 Winchester automatic rifle she broke 967 2 ¼-inch discs out of 1000 thrown in the air. “Sporting Life” readers are familiar with her yearly average for 1906 of over 90 per cent.; also the valuable aid she rendered as a member of the Winchester squad in their Southern tour last fall. On the present trip she and Mr. Hawkins did all the trap work, and their excellent performances give an idea of what Winchester shells and repeating shot guns will do when pointed in the right place. Twenty-eight towns were visited between February 19 and March 28. Mrs. “Top” scored 2529 out of 2645 targets, and Hawkins’ 2574, or .956 and .973 per cent respectively. Mrs. “Top’s” longest straight run was 116 and Hawkins; 271. In addition to trap shooting Mrs. Topperwein gave her fancy exhibition each day, which included her usual wonderful feats. Mr. “Top‘s” stunts are too well-known to need repeating. During the trip the above-mentioned trio made many friends for themselves and the Winchester Company, and were assured of a hearty welcome should they visit that section of the country again.
[ SPORTING LIFE, April 20, 1907, page 23 ]

TOPPERWEIN EXHIBITION.
The Renowned Winchester Experts Visit Highland Club.​

A blazing hot afternoon, that not even Edge Hill breezes could cool- to a comfortable degree, was what Mrs. and Mr. Topperwein, of San Antonio, Texas, found at Philadelphia for their introduction to Quaker City shooters last Monday after noon. After four nights in a sleeper, being detained by a wreck en route, they leached Philadelphia at G A. M. and gave their exhibition as scheduled in the P. M., regardless of personal fatigue. The Highland Gun Club arranged a special cup shoot, in connection with the exhibition which was first on the boards and finished ere the rifle and revolver work commenced. The cup shoot was governed by sliding distance handicap with the Edge Hill variations. That is all started 16 yards, scores of 19 and 20 shot next time from $0 yards, the 18’s shot from 10 yards, 17’s from 18, 16’s from 17, 15 and under from the regulation 10 yards. This penalized the 80 to 90 per cent shots one yard above the usual sliding handicap rules.
The experts, not being entered for the cup, preferred to shoot at 16 yards rather than stand under the shed in the heat, and noise, so were granted the privilege. Mal." Hawkins went out with 91 out of 100, Mrs. Topperwein smashed 89 after a poor start (for her). The little lady shot in excellent time and her 89 on these grounds would easily mean 95 on some others. Percy Pfleger won the cup with the good score of 88, the last forty being shot from 20 yards. Harry Fisher came next with 85, Ballentyne and M. Wentz, third on 82.
This race settled, the decks were cleared for the Winchester exhibition and what those two good shots didn’t do wasn’t worth doing. Though contending with the afternoon sun directly in his face Mr. Topperwein smashed targets with a 44 cal. revolver, holding the arm in unique positions and also with the aid of a mirror in sighting the object. Tin cans were riddled, flying objects from rocks down to small marbles and 22 cal. shells, sent spinning with 22 cal. bullets. In fact, Mr. Top. accomplished those feats for which he is famous and was warmly applauded.
Mrs. Top’s exhibition of fire arm manipulation was indeed wonderful for a woman. She is a born shot and the various stunts seemed like child’s play to her, so unerring was her aim. Such complete mastery of a man’s sport is remarkable for a woman, and it was a pleasure to watch her quick movements. Empty shells were snipped from her husband’s fingers, a toothpick also, likewise a small piece of potato on a toothpick cut from Mr. Top’s lips, all with 22 cal. bullets. Cards were punctured and cut, potatoes peeled, eggs scrambled and oranges splintered by the 32-20 ‘94 model and .351 high power Winchester automatic. Four targets thrown at once were easily demolished, eggs thrown any old angle were picked off like so many quail. A crack ball player, when asked to toss a high ball, did so with such strength, that it looked like a high marble, but Mrs. Top’s 2 ¾ dr. load of Dead Shot Smokeless found it ere it became a low ball. The good crowd present, equally divided as to sex, enjoyed the whole program and Mrs. Topperwein made many friends by her witty sallies and pleasant ways. The Highland Club will not soon forget the lady’s display of skill with small and large calibre rifles, also the scatter gun. Scores of cup shoot:

Yd 20 Yd 20 Yd 20 Yd 20 Yd 20 Ttl.
* Hawkins . . . . . . . . . . 16 18 16 20 16 17 16 18 16 18 – 91
*Mrs. Topperwein . . . . 16 16 16 19 16 19 16 18 16 17 – 89
Pfleger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 17 18 17 18 20 20 19 20 15 – 88
*Pratt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 19 16 15 16 18 16 18 16 18 – 88
H. Fisher . . . . . . . . . . . 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 16 17 18 – 85
Meehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 19 20 17 18 19 20 16 17 13 – 84
Aiman . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 16 17 16 17 18 19 17 18 17 – 84
*Lewis . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 16 16 17 16 17 16 15 16 18 – 83
Ballentyne . . . . . . . . . 16 14 16 17 17 16 17 16 17 19 – 82
M. Wentz . . . . . . . . . . 16 14 16 14 16 16 17 20 20 18 – 82
Hamil . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 11 16 15 16 16 17 18 19 16 – 76
Johnson . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 17 18 16 17 16 17 14 16 12 – 75
Boyer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 16 17 11 16 14 16 15 16 15 – 71
Pierson . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 11 16 15 16 16 17 16 17 11 – 69
Greenwood . . . . . . . . . 16 13 16 12 16 12 16 13 16 11 – 51
Perry . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 14 17 11 16 8 16 11 16 15 – 59
Newcomb . . . . . . . . . . 16 18 16 18 16 20 16 17 . . . . –
W. Franklin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 14 16 13 16 14 –
*Professionals
[ SPORTING LIFE, July 13, 1907, page 29 ]

 

Thanks HistoryBuff, I'd have loved to met Mrs Topperwein and watched her shoot. I've shot with many woman on my squads over the years, a lot of them HOF members today, and I never thought I was shooting with anyone other than a fellow trap shooter. It's really doing a disservice to the likes of Pinky when the ATA divided up everything like it's doing now.

The Jr Gold is a perfect example. Leo and I were on the men's first team when today we would be Jr Gold. That is a joke. When I was 18 I had to sign up to be drafted, lucky I had a high number, but we had to sign up. Our military is made up of 18 and 19 year olds fighting in the mid east. Now we (the ATA) treat these men that age like kids. Obama and the dems want everyone pigeon holed into a special interest group. Women, Black, Hispanic, Transgender and we wonder why in the hell the country's in the shape it is. Of course I shouldn't complain about the country when the damn ATA is guilty of the same stupid stuff. Brad

 

Brad said: The Jr Gold is a perfect example. Leo and I were on the men's first team when today we would be Jr Gold.

Now that brings it all into perspective.

 

If Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh was a trap shooter I wonder what category he would be in.

FlyersAREbest

 

I do not care as much about their shooting catagory as I do about what bathroom they want to use. We had that problem at Phoenix at the Spring Grand one year. Things were not as PC then as they are now. Roger C.

 

So you all inspected everybody's body parts before they entered the restroom? Look Roger transgender-ed individuals using the bathroom is not the problem. You are!!!!!!!

 

Lady T, Grow up and join the real world. I stated we had a problem at a shoot. We had a man trying to use the ladies rest room. I personally do not have any problem with peoples body parts and have no desire to inspect them. The problem is with narrow minded people of witch you come on as one of them. When you see a six Ft. plus male walking into the opposite gender toilet, it some times raises red flags, especially when the women come running out. If it dresses like a duck and looks like a duck, there is a good possibility it is a duck. Now you have a nice day,and be careful what room you use. Roger C.

 

Roger,
I guess you had to be there for it to make any sense ... WPT ... (YAC) ...