Grand at Cardinal Center a no go?

I know a couple shooters have indicated there may be enough friction between the CC and the ATA that it would take some work to smooth things out. Now after speaking with a friend in Ohio I'm at a loss as to where things stand. He told me that the ATA has little to no chance of striking a deal with the CC. While I don't doubt my friend I guess I'm not aware of much that has transpired. Is it true the opportunity has passed and the window is now closed?

 

Personally, I'd love to see it. Now that would be a real Grand again!

 

seitz9010, I do not think the CC has the time to have the Grand. They have a full shooting schedule without it. A shoot of that size takes a lot of prep time and a lot of work after it is over. There may be a Grand at the CC some day, but I do not think the ATA will be involved in it. It will be a sad day but it may be on the way. Roger C.

 

Why screw up a good thing.

If it would be held at CC, and it wasn't absolutely frink'n perfect, the bitching would be unbelievable.

We don't need that.

 

The "Prep and clean up" time as stated by Roger above could / would be a factor especially when they have a full slate of event's scheduled ... If the things that have been said, printed, posted, and read are remotely close to accurate about the Cardinal Center I seriously doubt there would be much bitching or things to bitch about, with the exception of some who would harbor ill feelings due to them losing the benefits they got at the WSRC by working the shoot ... The Cardinal Center seems to be doing quite well as it is and I live by the rule "If its not broke, don't fix it" usually but on rare occasion will try to tweek things a little bit ... Lynn Gipson made a statement that the ATA owes the members and the members expect the grand American trapshooting championships but nothing has been said nor have shooters that are owed the grand have been notified of any changes to date ... The clubs that would be interested and have the facility's could make a temp lease agreement and send them in for consideration ... The ATA just might find they do not have the following or support needed when there are other shoots that can be had in place of the grand as it has been for the past 15 years any way ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Don't we all know that the ATA wigs are waiting to hear that we will have the 2016 Grand in Sparta.

After all, it isn't until next August. Then they can say: "See, we told you so !"

Plenty of time, no problem, don't worry, be happy !

Santa will bring them a present at the end of December.

 

As I've said before, yes they may have the Grand at Sparta again but the attendance will be way down from the low numbers they're already seeing. Shooters have lost interest. Many have decided to look at other options. Sparta, while a nice facility, is pretty much a dying location for the ATA. Personally, I think you'll see the CC numbers grow and Tucson along with some of the other Satellite Grands. Sparta started losing shooters after the first year so why do some continue to believe it's going to prosper?

 

Its takes maybe 5 years to build a business and get it to be successful, they gave Sparta 10 and still not close to to being able to hold its own or just break even ... Reality has struck for the most part, have to agree with the above post by Seitz 9010 and his assessment of the future and Sparta ... If the ATA was smart they would make plans to move on and never look back ... (Key Word: SMART) ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Oh boy. Are you telling me that once again Ohio is going to say no to a possible Grand site because they could not be ready in 9 months! If that is the case you guys need to stop the complaining about Illinois. They did something that none of could and that was a viable location. I would love to have the Grand in my back yard instead of a small 6 hour drive. I think the attendance numbers would be amazing if our Pennsylvanian friends would support us. However, I think a better place would be in Pennsylvania not the CC. I like Eburg far better than CC.

This news will break your heart but I just returned from a meeting (8:30 AM today) in Illinois for my company, where we have a huge account with the State of Illinois. We anticipate a resolved budget in the next four weeks. The word within the State offices is that the WSRC and all other facilities will be open for business the instant a budget is signed.

Set the record straight...Ohio offered what location for a Grand 12 years ago? The Kool-aid is being consumed in OHIO. Ohio failed and Illinois did not. Get over it. How to have a bad time shooting in Ohio or Pennsylvania? Go to a Ohio or Pennsylvania club and hear the same Ohio cry babies tell everyone that will listen how great they are and how the EC lied, stole, and kidnapped the Grand from Ohio. Not true! Where was the best offer from? I drove to Springfield IL last night, had my meeting and I am at home. Not much of a drive if you ask me. Just think of the guys that drove to Vandalia in cars without AC on 2 lane roads. Wow we have it rough, Interstate most of the way! Get over it or get out.

Proud Ohioan

 

From the numbers that attend the GAH in sparta your last sentence looks to be spot on.

FlyersAREbest

 

So you like PA more than CC. Well, I'm from PA and I like CC far more than PA. You must have some very influential friends that save you a bank 3 opening for every shoot. The rest of the peons are denied that luxury!

 

Since only 30 shooters attended the PA State shoot from Ohio out of 1,787 others you might just be listening to the same 2 or 3. Time to broaden your horizon!

 

"WSRC and all other facilities will be open for business the instant a budget is signed" ......

"the instant" ... that is impressive, makes one wonder what rock they are hiding all those millions of dollars under.

Heck ... if signing a budget is like printing money, I am going to have to get my wife to sign me a budget.

 

We could post budgets online and sign them electronically.

 

And what "State Office" would that be? Would that be the one that issued the IP address? lol

I like shooting in PA too. Prefer bank 3.

 

I'm the nice moderator and I immediately knew he was full of crap!

 

Dyna, thanks! Really did sound a little strange.

 

TROLL from that old worn out site. They always give themselves away with that old lame " if you don't like it, get out" crap. That should be the motto of the "sparta forever" crowd.

Shame is, a lot of us did.

He probably did have a meeting for his company. The company that owns Kool-Aid.

FlyersAREbest

 

"BUSTED " ... You have to give him credit for trying, not much credit but at least a little bit ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

I miss the kool aid crowd banter. That's the one downside of being proven right. I miss the arguing and name calling. Please, Please kool aid guys come back, I miss you even if these others don't. I miss hunter44's months of shooting experience being shared with me. I miss greentitian's tips on traveling to ATA shoots, some as far away a the East ST. Louis area. I miss bigdon's wit and candor.

Men defend your position, fight for what you believe, stand up and be counted. Remember the EC needs you more now than ever, show us how strong you support them. Send in a sizable contribution to the HOF, they still need 380 grand. Buy an extra camper space. Put your money where your mouths used to be. Don't give up the ship. Brad

 

Unfortunately, many ATA members fully believe in the ATA leadership. I know because I was one of them for a number of years. As I started compiling the reports I realized the need for our elected Delegates to involve themselves more with overseeing operations as well as question all proposed changes and decisions and ask for verification so they could read documents themselves.

To my knowledge, not one (Delegate) had questions regarding the hasty decision to leave Vandalia at the end of May 2012. Not one asked what documents the Executive Committee was shredding, not one asked for the estimated expenses for 2012 year from the ATA staff which greatly differed (by $30k lower) from the $80,000 figure given to shooters by each Zone V.P., not one asked about the lease agreement between the ATA and the IDNR, many were surprised to learn of the details such as the ATA getting 25 free campsites and agreeing to pay the IDNR in advance of the Grand American the full cost of renting every campsite on the premises, not one asked for the details or to inspect and read the lease agreement between 2012 Pull, LLC and the ATA for the Sparta office, and not one asked to read the actual lease agreement between the THOF and the IDNR to learn the details prior to voting in favor of the $250,000 donation for the construction of the museum. Not one was aware that the THOF gave ownership of the museum to the State of Illinois even though member donors paid for it.

I would hope that any Delegate reading this and/or those thinking about running for State or Provincial Delegate can appreciate how much better our organization could be if they would start providing the necessary oversight of the ATA. After all, that is actually their primary duty.

Sadly, but understandably, most members just want to shoot and not get involved in or question the decisions of the organization. I fully understand that position but the ATA will never reach its full potential until integrity and transparency is reintroduced, demanded, mandated and policed by our membership. That is our duty.

 

HistoryBuff, Great post with some great examples of how crazy things can get when nobody cares and puts their blind faith in the elected officials to do the right thing. I've had the opportunity to discuss a couple of the examples you mentioned with a gentleman who was involved in some of the decisions and the answer was and is still today. "You don't have all the facts so you have no business asking questions that have no relevance to the real world that we have to work in." I guess a little transparency would help enlighten us dumb bastards and we wouldn't have to upset others by asking questions. Whether you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing, if you're doing it secretly you are always in the wrong.

 

HistoryBuff you know I think the ATA is doomed, and a lot of the reason is just what you describe. I've been very disappointed in my fellow HOF members and my contemporary ALL Americans and the fact that so many of them know better but have chose to say nothing. I've got to say that I've got respect for their trap shooting ability but not much for their character when they let a sport that was so good to so many of them down by being quiet. Shame on them and shame on any delegate who let this happen. I hope they all very proud of themselves. Brad

 

If you really want to get depressed in a hurry start thinking about the things you know actually happened. Space being rented out to store cars and vehicles. Premium squad assignments sold before presquadding was opened. Money disappearing from ATA funds that couldn't be accounted for in later reports. Shells stolen from the shell house and from the ATA shed. Don't spend time on what might have happened we already have enough information to know that things have been out of whack for some time. Term limits and open meetings would certainly help. I also don't believe a VP should get a free ride once they're in. Everyone should stand for election every year. As it is now they can say, "now I'm in the position where I can do whatever I want and the shooters can't touch me."

 

The Good Ol' Boys Club in action and yes its been going on for way to long ... To listen to any of them talk , they make it sound like it costs them money to serve (if that's what they do) when all along they are stealing the members blind ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Lets talk about the old grand in Vandalia. Was they a BUNCH of shells missing way back in the early 80's that were never accounted for?? I do remember that one day after the grand they were selling shells out of the shell house for cash at reduced prices. Where did that money go.?? Was it going back to the ATA?? Or to the people working in the shell house?? Those were the days when shells were mandatory with your entry fee. Seems they always had a miscount at the end of the event. Was it the employees working n the shell house?? Just another thing to add to the pot?? Motordoc

 

It's been awhile and I don't remember the year but I'm pretty sure a group of "gentlemen" we're caught stealing shells from the shell house. They were kicked out of the ATA and then as soon as nobody was looking they were promptly reinstated. Am I dreaming or do others remember this. About the same time I was told there were also some missing funds that a second audit reversed the first and everything turned out just fine. Things always seemed to work out fine for those reaping the rewards.

 

They were "stealing shells from the shell house" with unpaid for 'tickets' that you would get when you paid your entry fee, and then redeem the tickets at the 'shell-house' for the shells of your choice.

Not all were "promptly reinstated", but one won the GAH in the 90's after being "reinstated".

 

I guess he knew the right people. I used to think of him when I looked at my Seitz gun. Am I remembering correctly? Interesting all the stories from over the years yet nobody seemed to care and it was and is business as usual, I'm thinking.

 

Interesting all the stories from over the years yet nobody seemed to care and it was and is business as usual, I'm thinking. (Quoted from Seitz 9010)

This is and has been the problem, we as members who really care have to find a way to eliminate the problem and get things back on track ... I am all for anyone who wants to start to make it happen so there is a chance the ATA will be around long into the future ... I stand ready and willing to help in any way I can, open for suggestions ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Linn Creek has 60 traps, CC has 50 how many does Pa. have? The CC turned down a one and three year deal with Lynn Gibson about three weeks ago. I think he was just looking for a plan B.

 

Why guess about these things? Doesn't Karla have all the answers? Just be patient. lol

 

First I heard about this. Any details?

It really surprises me that some of you people allow this type of posting against someone who really tried to do good .things for the trapshooting community. Expected from some but really surprised by a few others.

 

What has Karla done? She said be patient. There is a plan. Leonidas tell us about the plan.

 

Leonidas,

If these persons in charge had not of lied to the membership so many times, maybe the would have received the benefit of the doubt. When they do not think the sheep have the brain power of being able to see the neferious deals that have transpired under their watch, they under estimate the masses. There are some of you that are to trusting to see the writing on the wall. Open up you eyes, some of these people are devious. Roger C.

 

I love the "some of you people ALLOW" and the "AGAINST someone" and the "expected from SOME" stuff.
This is why I WANT you here leonidas, king of the spartans. For the laughs.

What do you expect from a bunch of "has been", ATA bashing, sparta hating, can't shoot 2 hole easier targets, pissed off at how the EC and BOD operate, people?

You post under a name meant to show your support of that hole(money pit) in the middle of a bankrupt state.
You use that ANTI CC avatar with the circle/slash and haven't been chastised or banned.

Oh, wait, you WERE called on it and your excuse was because maybe you disliked some local HS football team. I think there were 0ne or two other lame ass, what you thought were cute, excuses but we will go with that first one. You weren't chastised or banned, because your excuse was funny. On the contrary, you were told to keep coming back, even if it is just for comic relief.

NOW you want stelts reprimanded. Is it because of the cartoon? Or because you think he took her name in vain? Or is it because he used her name at all?

Or is it really that ANYTIME you think you can make this site look bad, no matter how petty your choice is, you take a shot?

Most of us know what the true answer is. I only ask to see if you have the nads to admit it.

And, if you haven't figured it out yet, everyone wants to "do good things" when it comes to correcting the screw ups the EC and BOD have committed. That's why we don't drink the infamous Kool-Aid.

Keep posting, you are more than welcome to keep trying to point out posts that you perceive are inappropriate. Like I said, just for the comic relief.

FlyersAREbest