Home Grounds

Sparta's World Shooting Complex to close Oct. 1

Has the ATA tried to buy this land or just the clay target part? The NSSA &NSCA own 671 acres in Texas, and they do not seem to have the problems that the ATA now has. I have shot registered skeet(20 years) and registered trap(4 years). I believe there is 30 registered trap shooter for every registered skeet shooter so the money should be there. Instead of arguing about where the home ground should be, do what is best for the sport and own are home grounds (wherever) and control our future. Or are we going to be like Washington (Republicans & Democrats) and destroy our future? Could it be that simple?

 

Dust

It doesn't matter who owns the grounds. Nothing grand is going to happen there. The majority of the shooters have 4 of the 5 largest shoots within a few hours. The big shoots are near the shooters. Go figure.

What is best for the sport was never in the equation or we would not be having the conversation.

 

Dust,
The State of Illinois has operated and maintained the facility for the last 11 plus years, in that time they have lost an accumulated amount of money in excess of $23 millions dollars ... If the ATA owned this property this loss would of been absorbed by them (ATA) as opposed to the State of Illinois tax payers ... The ATA has claimed $12 Million dollars in the bank and or various investments so that would not last long ... The ATA turned a majority of the membership against supporting them by making the move to this facility in the first place so to get the support that would be needed would not come from the majority of the members who do not support the actions taken by the ATA , the amount of shooters does not matter as mush as the number of shooters who support the ATA does ... This has been going on since before the relocation to Ill eleven years ago which can be confirmed by the attendance dropping off up to 15 years ago ... The Members are the ATA not the other way around and they seem to of forgotten who butters their bread, without the Members there would be no need for the ATA ... You mention what is best for the sport and being in control of our future which has obviously not been on the agenda for the past 15 plus years based on the actions taken by the EC and BOD of the Association ... The membership numbers are falling like a lead balloon so its not only a few people who feel as though they have been forgotten and or ignored ... The ATA was warned about making the move prior to them making it so it comes as no surprise that the outcome would not be good and would catch up with them sooner or later ... This did not start yesterday and will not end tomorrow ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Since the shooting center is State owned on State owned property, to sell it would first require the State legislature to pass a measure approving the sale. Then public notice give for bid tenders would could be 30-60 days of notice time. Then the time for submitting bids would be another time period, follow by a review of bids and the acceptance. Acceptance might even have to be reviewed and approved by the legislature, it depends on how they set up the process. This process could take a couple months or much longer. Of course the bid would have to be the highest in order to win it, providing there is no reserve or the bid submitted exceed the reserve and there might be conditions attached that require action before, during or after the purchase.

This could be a long process, beyond getting the Directors together to approve the idea of wanting to purchase, then approving an amount to bid.

 

Dustinthewind,

The land was a gift from the dupont's . It was not purchased. This makes a large difference. Roger C.

 

I was a National Director, and voted to buy the last 200 acres.

 

Dustinthewind, Very good decision, Some of our leaders do not make decisions unless there is juice involved. We need your kind in the ATA . Roger C.

 

The ATA, ED, EC, or BOD have not posted anything about having located another place to host the grand in 2016 so it appears they are hanging on to the possibility of it still being at the WSRC ... If there are any changes made they had better notify the members so those who want to attend can make plans and or reservations to do so ... The ATA web site mentions an up date but nothing since the facility has closed and the State is at loggerheads over the budget ... It seems strange that nobody who should have any information has not at least given people something to think about for attending the grand in 2016 ... It seems there has been a complete loss of transparency by the ATA and all involved and the membership ... I have serious doubts that the ATA could force the State of Illinois into honoring the agreement for hosting the grand until 2026 at the WSRC if the State can show cause not to ... I would imagine something should be initiated to remove the traps so they would not be at risk while the facility is not being used ... The silence is deafening in many ways, but not unusual on behalf of the Association ... That is the biggest part of the problem and has been for quite some time ...

 

It appears that the ATA is willing to sit and wait ( it could be they have no other option) but to not communicate with the members who are the lifeblood of the organization is irresponsible. If the ATA wants a sizeable contingent at the 2016 Grand it has a responsibility to keep the shooters advised, as has been said before shooters will make other plans, if this should happen and the Grand attendance falls which would be unfortunate the ATA will have no excuse than to be responsible for their lack of communication.

 

Who is the ATA? Isn't that us. Aren't we responsible for drinking the Kool Aid? No outrage then no foul!

 

The Members are the ATA, problem is if you get people who do not communicate (ex: EC, BOD) with the members there is little than can be done ... The process to get rid of them is long and dragged out just the way they planned it so the damage they can do before you can get rid of them is over whelming ... The EC has their own agenda and it does not include the members or so it seems, same for many of the BOD who do not stand up for the members and voice an opinion on behalf of the members but for the members ... The ATA is in trouble and to stay on the path they are on will only be the cause of their demise ... The ATA is a cash cow for the EC and they do not want anyone milking their cow till they are done with it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Communication from the ATA to the membership is greater now than it was when I joined over 40 years ago. The only communication I ever received in the 70's, 80'snd 90's was my new average card and changes in the rules. Now the ATA has a web site and that right there is a big change From what it used to be. They have a contact feature and a forum.

In order to communicate something, there has to be something to communicate. Good chance there is nothing to pass on right now, right now we are at the mercy of the State of Illinois.

I would not suspect it very wise to scour the country side looking for a new site when chances are we will have the Sparta site available to us in August 2016.

It is up to your State delegate to report to you via your State trapshooting association and their website

 

Azco....I assume then you are taking wagers both big and small on the issue. I watched the Illinois Comptroller's remarks on the dire situation Illinois is in.

Got deep pockets? Wanna bet!?

Collegiate SCTP championships just left.

 

Langer,

If it happens, it happens. What is the point going off the deep end about it? I like to stay positive, even though I don't trust politicans. If we don't have a Grand next year, it will not be the end of the world. The policital posturing going on with Illinois is no different that on the national level, end of the world, we're all gonna die, blah, blah blah. Who is really at risk here, the State of Illinois or more specifically Cook County?

As to owning grounds, would the ATA be any better than the State of Illinois, keeping a facility year round requireing upkeep for only 10 days of activity and revenue? Should the ATA join forces with other shooting disciplines to operate a large complex? Naw, that would lead to disputes on usage of the land and other problems we see similar at local gun clubs right now. Maybe that is the reason for the reluctance of land ownership.

 

Since when does political posturing affect trapshooting? Oh.....that's right. It just did. The Collegiate Championships left Illinois. Gone! It wasn't due to posturing. The joint is closed. Closed by a government called the State of Illinois and it went to a venue that cannot be closed by a state.

 

Posture--definition:

from The Free Dictionary-------behave in a way that is intended to impress or mislead others. Kind of funny huh? What flavor Kool aid you drinking?

 

The state of Ill. used this range for other shooting venues, when it's open and not just the 10 days ATA operated Vandalia!

Just because ATA once used their own home grounds for just two shoots per year certainly isn't cast in stone, only an accepted practice at that time. Maybe, just maybe if we owned our own club again, other measures may be taken to ADVANCE trap shooting as our by-laws require?

The longest journey always begins with a first step?

HAP

 

Hap,

We all know the State of Illinois had other shooting venues at the complex, but if the ATA owned it's own grounds without other venues, then how could we (ATA) operate such a facility any better than Illinois?

How would other shooting venues be supported with just trap ranges. You would need skeet, bunker, pistol and rifle ranges. Who foots the expense, who manages it, how are dates set, are all the other disciplines non profits as is the ATA? If not does that present any legal problems in management, income and funds handling? Are we willing to risk the trails and tribulations to find out?

The State is a buffer to keep all things separate and equal.

 

Family Guy and langer,

Okay, Sparta is dead, just not buried. Now what? You have anything lined up to replace it? You have a grand idea to fix it or going to talk this subject to death for years as you did the move to Sparta? Anyone can say I told you so, repeat the tired "drinking the kook-aid" bs. Show us some intelligent and original thinking by coming up with a worthwhile solution, or is it easier for you just being a defeatest and a troll. Surprise me.

 

Interesting how everybody cries about lack of leadership, but has none to offer theirselves.

 

AZCO, I suggest you ask those in charge of the skeet organization how that works out! They changed their game to such easy shots they practically put themselves out of business doing that! BUT, those in charge had the forsight to incorporate other shooting venues into their organization before they went belly up! They now own their own lands and all connected with it.

Are you suggesting our own ATA members couldn't possibly be smart enough to do the same? Sure sounds that way from your writings?

HAP

 

I don 't know Hap, are we smart enough? Sure does not sound like it with the constant criticism leveled at ATA for the move to Sparta and it now closed.

All I am saying if we get into bed with other disciplines to have our own complex, will we know who these bed fellows are and if it turns out unworkable, can we endure disagreements, disputes, lawsuits and even possible loss of our investments?

I'm just asking questions, wanting to know if we know what we would be getting into. Can those who make this happen handle the criticism that will be given to them as they gave to others if it fails?

 

A search committee composed by some industry giants and our upper echelon is currently examining locations in the mid-West for just such a possibility. Don't ask me how I know?

 

Okay, we won't ask.

 

Top secret info. If I tell you I'd have to kill you. Let's just say the ATA intends to own the facility if possible this time. Suffice to know they're not sitting on their hands-just in case!

 

Azcotrap, In my opinion, based on 40 years of trap shooting and almost as many in the gun and hunting business the only ways the ATA stays viable are:

1. Change the rules back to when registered shooting was the game such as but not just things like harder targets. Do away with satellite grands. Do away with telephonic shoots and mandatory reductions.

2. Change political set up so states with most shooters get the most votes. If a state only has 30 shooters they shouldn't have same vote as a state with 3000.

3. Hope and pray that it's not to late, and the damage of the past 20 years can be fixed. Admitting that Sparta and the deal with anti gun Illinois was a momentous mistake would go a long way.

4. See to it that any criminal activity by past or current EC members leads to jail time. Brad

 

The other shooting venues that are always mentioned do not need to partner with the ATA, they have established "Home Grounds" and seem to be doing reasonably well without adding the ATA to their mix to clutter things up for them ... When the ATA made the move to Illinois everyone seemed to think the State of Ohio was going to dry up and blow away when it came to trapshooting, last I heard the Cardinal Center seems to be doing fine and has no problem keeping the attendance of their shoots slightly above their established average year after year ... The ATA made the grand a disaster before the move by limiting the number of entry's thinking they were going to get over whelmed and over ran with shooters for a couple of years ( 2, I think) and that back fired BIG TIME, rather than try to get it done , if it happened (we all know it did not ) ... The ATA is not in a position to own a "Home Grounds" as it stands even with an estimated $12 million bank and investments on hand ... We have seen what the cost of operations and maintaining the grounds can cost by using the costs that are related at the WSRC ... There are clubs that can host the grand and God forbid them getting to many shooters showing up for a change ... I think that just might happen as an I told you so type thing to show the ATA what they been missing, being as these clubs have infrastructure already in place and there for the taking ...

4. See to it that any criminal activity by past or current EC members leads to jail time. Brad****** ( copied from another post )

WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

To get more delegates per State based on number of shooters would require a change in the bylaws and a majority vote by the existing BOD. Don!t how that is possible.

 

"3. Hope and pray that it's not to late" ... and ... "4. See to it that any criminal activity by past or current EC members leads to jail time"

If ... "4." is linked to the building of WRSC/Sparta, "3." may not help.

When it gets time to throw someone under-the-bus, the ATA will be the weak link. The taxpayers of Illinois were lead into a investment fraud by false data supplied by the ATA.

The ATA needs to shut-up and walk away, the more they repeat false numbers, the greater the chance someone is going to hold them accountable.

 

I can see how the Satellite Grands have siphoned off attendence to The Grand, but it is allowing people who cannot make the big one share the experience on a lessor scale. Is that so bad? How much is the attendence of the SG's total compared to the Grand?

Is it time to revamp the way the Grand as held? If we limited the attendence by allowing only certain people by target minimum, attending one or two zones, at least one SG with a steady average in their class and yardage, during the year, zone and SG"s, would that make the Grand a true championship event, requiring a smaller site to hold it?

 

If my recall generator is correct, the state of Ill. said they were going to build this facility whether or not the ATA came along for the ride?

It's time our sports leadership came to their senses and realize it's time for some changes that actually work for our sports longevity. Instead of smaller clubs comprising the bulk of members, we now rely on all the satellite Grand's and nation wide Zone shoots to bolster the lack of attendance at our main Grand American. This practice is driving away lots of our smaller clubs at an alarming rate! This is wrong and our history proves it.

History is a very valuable tool if used correctly. Sadly, those who've been in charge for way too long could care less about our sports history. N.W. once chastised me for mentioning our sports history often and said; "I'm sick and tired of you mentioning this history BS and wish you'd quit it". My response was. I'll write you a prescription for your sickness, don't read my posts!

HAP

 

The State of Illinois had no reason to build it without the ATA. If you read the "lease agreement" they built it to ATA specifications. And, if a 'shooting range' was on the agenda for some reason, that size and number of traps for the population makes zero sense.

Linking the building of the Complex to the ATA is easy, and looking at what Dayton/Vandalia said they lost by the move, and what the ATA said their 'impact' would be in dollars is easy enough to compare.

 

Azco,

The satellite grands are detrimental to the sport in a way you probably have not thought of. They draw most of the shooters to there sites. The smaller clubs that throw targets are not getting the attendance they need to survive and then we have no incubator for the new shooters to be born in.

The Grand at Sparta, the Spring Grand in AZ, and the Grand in N.Y. are all that are needed to give shooters a chance of attending. Our small clubs are failing at an alarming rate. I'm not only talking about closed clubs, many are not having ATA shoots any more because of poor attendance. The AA points are a big part of the problem. If you want to make the team you better be on the road at every opportunity you have, and shooting small local clubs are not in the picture.

Between satellite Grands and near by State shoots there are not many weekends left for the small local clubs. Some say the average shooter can not compete with the AA shooters. They are correct, but the average shooter likes to rub shoulders with the very best of the competitors. Our sport is in a downward spiral that can be halted if only our leaders would put the sport first and their own ambitions last. Roger Coveleskie

 

Brad,

You outlined a very good start for fixing the problems of our sport. However #4 will never happen, but it should, there have been to many smelly deals under the bridge. If all that did them, + all that did nothing about them were made to testify we probably, would never live long enough to see what their judgement would be. Roger Coveleskie

 

Here is a fun read from 2003 for anyone that has doubt about the ATA being involved in the sham.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/..._illinois-department-sparta-airport-expansion


ON THE OUTDOORS.
Sparta shoots for the big time
August 21, 2003|BY LEW FREEDMAN.



VANDALIA, Ohio — Randy Bertetto, mayor of Sparta, Ill., wore a green T-shirt with the words "World Shooting Complex" stenciled on it. It may be the first souvenir for a poised-to-be-developed dream.

That dream project could pump $50 million into Bertetto's southwestern Illinois community of about 5,000 people, Randolph County and the surrounding area.

Last week Bertetto, Illinois Department of Natural Resources director Joel Brunsvold and a host of other state officials were in Vandalia, Ohio, to meet with the board of directors of the Amateur Trapshooting Association. Their aim was to persuade the group to literally relocate lock, stock and barrel and bring the Grand American trapshooting championship to Illinois.

The massive event lures 7,000 shooters to 10 days of competition each August. It must move from its present site near Dayton International Airport, and Illinois may be the new home. The ATA board sidestepped a final decision, but the executive committee has been empowered to negotiate lease terms with Sparta and Las Vegas over the coming months.

Bringing the event to Illinois would be a coup. It is estimated that the championships generate between $10 million and $12 million annually.

It would be a foundation client for the World Shooting Complex, which is moving closer to reality.

Brunsvold said he recently signed papers to authorize spending $1.88 million to purchase 1,179 acres from the Peabody Coal Co. He said the paperwork should be finalized in early September.

The money was previously earmarked by the Open Lands Trust.

Bertetto said backhoes should be moving earth by mid-September, and complex completion is projected to be 2005.

The $20 million complex, financed by the state, county and city, is planned as a multiuse year-round facility. There will be areas for trapshooting, archery and ATV trails, among other things. Bertetto said the complex signifies an area attempt to turn tourism and recreation into a local industry.

"It will be terrific input for our economy," Bertetto said.

Brunsvold said the $50 million estimate is "what we think is a minimum number."

Illinois has wooed the Grand American for several years. The Grand American, the self-described premier shooting event in the world, just completed its 104th competition. It has been conducted in Vandalia, 10 miles west of Dayton, since 1924 but is losing its lease because of airport expansion.

Two years ago the ATA announced a move to Sparta but changed its mind.

Illinois has stepped up its lobbying, but rank-and-file shooters express concern about the lack of hotel and restaurants in the Sparta area.

There also is a backlash against Illinois gun laws--real and proposed. Several shooters cited Gov. Rod Blagojevich, Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley and state legislators who introduce bills that affect gun registration, purchase and possession.

"Some of the worst gun laws in the country come out of state legislators in Los Angeles and Chicago," said Steve Minneman, a trapshooter from Clayton, Ohio. "If it goes to Illinois, I probably won't go to the Grand American anymore."

Todd Walker of St. John's, Mich., said: "I don't like Illinois government officials. I don't trust 'em."

ATA officials were scheduled to make the final choice on Aug. 14, and the Illinois contingent was primed for it. The board of directors considered proposals from Illinois, Shelbyville, Ind., and Las Vegas. Shelbyville offered the chance to own land, but the deal required paying out $5 million the trapshooters association doesn't have.

Although Las Vegas has 125,000 hotel rooms, it is a comparative late-comer in the bidding and is said to be at a disadvantage because most ATA members live in the East.

Illinois is offering a free long-term lease at the World Shooting Complex and is willing to expand the construction of trap fields from a planned 24 to 124 if the Grand American comes. The organization would be able to run other major shoots on the grounds too. Illinois asks only that a $3 user fee be paid by each shooter to cover cleanup costs.

"How big a lease do you want?" asked state Rep. Dan Reitz (D-Steelman). "Fifty years? A hundred years? We're building a shooting range. We want people to come and shoot."

Clearly, Illinois is hot for the Grand American to move to Sparta.

"It lends the prestige of one big shoot," Brunsvold said. "It lends one big cornerstone to the project immediately. We would love to have them come. The bottom line is it won't cost them a thing. We have a great offer."

The ATA board debated proposals for 3 1/2 hours that night, finally voting 36-17 against Shelbyville for fear of taking on too much debt. Then the group told its executive committee to wrap up a deal with either Illinois or Las Vegas by next spring.

"We can do this in a week," Brunsvold said.

Maybe Illinois can. And the Grand American eventually might say yes. But the group is moving at all deliberate speed.

 

If you miss it, this, "Two years ago the ATA announced a move to Sparta but changed its mind." is in there, and the date this was published is "August 21, 2003".

 

It does not appear anyone with any common sense has ever dealt with real (actual) numbers from the very start according to everything that has been posted and claims made even by the State of Illinois obviously based on what they had been told by the ATA ... 7,000 shooters, 10/12 million, 50 million (minimum) , is it any wonder the place is in so deep it will never see the light of day again ... I think the biggest surprise is it took as long as it did for the State to wake up and smell the coffee (Manure) before someone had the stones to put a stop to it ... The ATA had less than $5 million at the time, (2003) now they claim $12 million on hand and or invested ... So, the ATA has made money but at the cost of losing a big part of its supporters (members) over the past 12 to 15 years, got to wonder if the trade off was worth it in the long run ... It appears that the longer this goes on the worse it gets ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

 

Thank God its finally closed. Now WPT (yuck) and his band of HATERS can get along with life. What a burden they have lived with. OK go ahead and delete my post as you have all the others i have posted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Steve Johnson, User 1 posted a factual newspaper article, history, I fail to see how facts can have an emotion attached to them. Facts are facts, opinions are just that, and emotions lead to failure. My bitch with Sparta is well known, but facts are what many others said and followed up with. Back when I was posting on tsc, when David owned it, I argued my points with facts. I don't know if you can achieve download them or not but I've been hit over the head with the hater club a lot. I don't care what I'm called as long as "He was correct" is the final outcome.

The kool aid drinkers of the political press can't understand why Trump is doing so well. He is dismissed by the political elite just like the ATA dismissed the trap shooters that were against the move to Illinois 14 years ago and they have mostly quit shooting and have never been replaced. In this whole monumental F***UP they are the only ones to keep their word.

User 1 thanks for the memories. WPT gloating is an art that only the correct can master, the uninformed, unknowing, unsuspecting, can only call foul. I've never met you that I can remember but your posts are many times more right on the mark than off. It's nice to be associated with the haters like you. Brad

 

Your opinion is yours i respect that. The only problem is would it not be better to promote than cut down the sport. I may be wrong in how i think i hope not.

 

Steve,(Johnson),
I'm not sure who you are but I for one always said "I Hope/(wish) the State keeps the WSRC open and operating so they can pick up the tab" and no body gets anymore stupid ideas ... If I was a hater you would know it without any mistakes or abbreviations ... I still feel that way but do not feel its fair for the tax payers of the State of Illinois to pick up the deficit, so it would have to be spread around a little bit ... That of course would mean additional cost to all who attend any and all events at the facility ... Kind of like "Pay as you go" to take the heat off of the tax payers and others who want to benefit and enjoy the facility and HOF also ... I don't think the Moderators will delete your post being as it is partially accurate when you say we can get on with life, which we have been for a long time, actually since right after the ATA moved to Sparta ... There are many shooters who are not "Haters" realistically, that will not support the ATA since the ATA started down the path to destruction ... They (we) were told to stay away that we were not needed which turned out to be totally untrue as it turns out ... I will nominate you to be a Moderator if you give me your permission, other wise have a good day ... WPT ... (YAC) ...

Thanks Brad,

We met many way to many years ago in Vandalia, watched you in a fair amount of shoot offs and then some over at Tipp City shooting the "OutLaws" ...

 

I wouldn't take this down for anything.

Flyersarebest

 

Flyersarebest, I always thought what made live bird shooting so intriguing (in the USA) was that there was a basic format of rules but that each club we shot at had its own take on them. I had a different handicap starting yardage at each club depending on how I shot that club. Some clubs you shot that yardage, some clubs had a starting yardage for everyone. Some clubs you'd slide forward and backward depending on killing or missing, some each 3 birds and most each 5 birds and at some you'd shoot the whole event from your initial yardage.

When I shot we had 10, 15, and 25 bird events. I guess today 30 is the norm but pigeon shooting seems to always be adapting. The one constant has always been MONEY both cost and what could be won. As a trap shooter I've always thought the ATA should spend more time promoting the sport and keeping the records than promoting a venue. For the last 15 years all the EC's time has been spent in and on promoting Sparta and the Grand.


I know that many delegates back then didn't really know what was going on and some really believed that Sparta was the answer but you'd think with what is going on now in Illinois (and the HOF) common sense would flame up in some of the current ones. I do read a flicker of it in Gibson's letter in the fact that the ATA is at least admitting Illinois broke the lease. That's a good start. I hope the negotiate like Trump instead of Obama, Pull the Plug Now, Admit Your Mistake, Do what's best for the sport for once and stop believing your own propaganda because 70 % of the ATA shooters shooting when that newspaper article was printed have stopped shooting and have not been replaced. How big a Grand do you EC expect next year at Sparta if it's held there? Use this as an Opportunity to do the right thing.

It will be interesting to me to see when or if the light will go on in the current batch of ATA trap shooters in what has happened but I don't hold anymore faith in them than I do today's politicians and TV newsmen. Monolithic thinking has a death grip on the human species in this country not just trap shooters. I often think about what the "old pigeon shooters" we knew back in the 70's would be saying and would this EC ATA ignore them as easily as they do us.

No matter what it's going to be an interesting offseason to watch from the sidelines. Brad