Cardinal Classic shoot is up

The Buckeye Classic is up, But I personally feel if they Drew For Starting traps the shoot would have been up more.

RJ Stewart again held opening up squadding until banks 5-6-7 were filled, I hope Mr. Fishburn has seen what effect this is having against shooters, and makes drawing starting traps a reality, and more money for him.

I brought this to Tournament Director Luke Spangler's attention Immeaditly after the Ohio State Shoot .

ALL MAJOR SHOOTS ARE NOW DOING IT AND SHOOT ENTRIES ARE INCREASING.

RJ Stewart holding up opening squads until banks 5-6-7 were filled caused a 23% loss of shooters for the Singles Championship.

I want to see the Cardinal Set More Entry Records, Drawing Starting Banks is the first step.

Shooters driving long distances do not want to be held up by RJ Stewart's shenanigans. They came to shoot.


Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Seems to be the only fair way.

Why is the Cardinal International trap not running, Gary?

 

It looks to me shoot is up approx. 10% over last year. RJ Stewart again held up opening banks.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

I do not know, I love shooting the International Bunker, Several years ago I challenged the best bunker shooter on my very first time shooting bunker with my New Caesar Guerini Combo, shooting it for the first time and beat him by 3 targets and I only used 2nd shot 3 times. I need to get a set of O/U Bbls for my new Fabarms Axis Trap. I have fast target recognition still at 74 years of age, I am blessed w/good vision, I owe to taking an Eye Vitamin for the last 5 + Years. I broke 49-50 Intl targets.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

Longshot, when you brought the problem to the attention of Mr. Spangler, what was his response? Specifically. I'm sure we all think he must have said something; what was it?

The shoot is up - as of this morning and according to my addition - about 3% which is good these days.

N1H1

 

I feel that any club holding major shoots, bank drawing SHOULD be made a mandatory rule! I did appreciate the way the target setting committee handled it at this years Grand though! Great decision as it also had some effect on some of the top shooters but certainly not all!

HAP

 

Spangler obviously checked with you, of course. What did he say?

 

It won't work well at the Grand, Hap. Many shooters drive in and would have to stop at the Event Center to find out where to drive next. Many like to set up behind the trap. With drawing, they might well have to take down and move (often a long way) twice.

It only needs to be done if some of the traps are really bad anyway. That does not apply to Sparta. I guess it does at the Cardinal Center, but why can't the practice traps be moved there?

N1H1

 

Neil, with all the TV monitors from one end to other, it could work! Might be a tad unhandy for the MH group to possibly shoot somewhere other than in front of their camp spots but it would be fair to all! I do agree there's no real bad banks at the Grand but there certainly are some very favorites for good reason!

Are you inferring these few without a car of golf cart wouldn't be able to shoot without moving their camper?

I don't feel we should cater to ANY group in any way in the name of sports fairness?

HAP

 

Mr Spangler has not yet replied.

 

Where does the 23% figure come from?

 

As God is my Witness Drawing for starting traps IS THE ONLY FAIR WAY TO START THE EVENTS, NO SHOOTER PICKS HIS STARTING TRAPS, And shooters coming a long distance is not demanded to shoot traps 5-6-7 and forced to wait until more banks are opened by His Highness RJ Stuart.

RJ Stuart's actions actually is costing the Cardinal Center money, Targets in the air=MONEY

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

How many of you actually know what Drawing starting traps does?

Drawing starting Banks shifts all starting points by squad number, Posted every day at the beginning of the first event.

Can also be done on each event. Big Dogs can no longer pick their starting traps, as they have in the past, picking better traps & backgrounds as in the past years to have an advantage/they take every advantage they can take.

Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

 

From the Ohio State Shoot singles Championship, shooters that were forced to wait for RJ Stuart to open more banks, had to wait, and then the RAINS came and they decided to not enter/wait for him to open more squads, he RJ Stuart caused the lowest Ohio State Singles Championship entries ever to be posted.

He has used this same action at Florida's Silver Dollar, they are now contemplating hiring another service, due to shooter complaints.

GB DLS

 

"I brought this to Tournament Director Luke Spangler's attention Immeaditly after the Ohio State Shoot ."

"And again at the beginning of this years Cardinal Classic, "

"Mr Spangler has not yet replied."

You wrote him, did you? The way you told it, I thought you spoke to him. You wrote him at the start of the cardinal classic? Why didn't you just go and speak to him?

Remember, you only need to draw if you have bad traps. There are none in Sparta. So there's no need to draw.

No one is forced to wait, of course. When I was there, I just shot what was offered to me. Anyone can do that. I guess 200 or so wouldn't even shoot because they couldn't get the traps that suited them. As I said, I guess that's the difference.


N1H1

 

I thought for sure he'd answer your calls, right away.

Is there a reason he hasn't replied to you?

 

Copy and paste makes a person say anything a rival wants them to say, agree smoking357 ?

Thats why I keep everything from every thread I've posted on this site. I can prove what I've said, not what someone who copy and pasted.

This gets better all the time.

 

Something needs to be done to address the lack of full squads at the cardinal, at least on 5, 6, and 7. Drawing would be a good start.

I shot bank 5 for handicap and doubles on Friday. I squadded that morning and was only offered what I thought were positions to fill squads. Turned out I shot caps with one other guy. On a side note, he shot both caps events the prior day by himself and would have again. Later we both shot doubles together with just one other guy.

Didn't see any problem with the bank at all background wise. Speeding up the day would have been nice to avoid shooting in the setting sun.

 

You shoot to the north. How does early or late affect that?

 

Drawing would likely be worse, ken.

Drawing makes pre-squadding less attractive, since you might end up on a trap you don't like. So you wait 'til the morning of the shoot to get what you want.

There are two things that might happen.

1. Shoot management might tell Mr. Stuart (as they apparently do now) to keep the squads even, that means, offer only currently open spots before opening any more. That just stacks people up in squadding and does little to help fill the hated banks.

2. Shoot management tells Mr. Stuart not worry about even squads. If a shooter wants Bank 11, give him the next one there, let banks 5,6, and 7 worry about themselves. Since 5,6,and 7 are a quarter of the whole line, and the 23% who refuse to shoot now will get their way, a reasonable estimate would be that each event will take 50% longer. And labor costs will jump by something close to that, more, really, since overtime will begin to really bite.

The effect is longer days and higher costs, soon to carried into higher entry fees. All to accommodate people who just won't try to play fair. Is it worth it?

Drawing works when people play fair, traps are all about equally accessible and conducive to good scores, and the line isn't too long. At the Grand there is no need for it since the traps are all equal and, in my case, for example, it's way, way better to pre-squad and center myself around the western traps near my Winnebago. Others (in premium spots, mostly) have the same wishes in the opposite direction and east traps work out for them.

In the end, what happens is that shoot management makes the best estimate of what will keep labor costs lowest and will still make fair competitors happy - or at least not so unhappy they won't shoot - and that's what's going to happen. Note carefully that Mr. Stuart does not enter into the calculation. He just does whatever he is directed to by the people running things. He will forcefully present his best advice and since it is usually very, very good, he will often be seen as "getting his way." But he is not the boss, except when he is directed to something against the rulebook which is simply will not do, no matter how much it seems to others to make sense, make things easier, and make money.

N1H1

 

Doesn't RJ Stuart run the shoots the way the boss tells him?

How do you know that squading on those banks were the reason? Did you stand there and ask them all?

Maybe the down turn in shooters was due to everyone else in the country is tired of the endless rantings of a few Ohio shooters?

 

Duff

Doesn't that shoot keep growing? Did you get information that said otherwise? Could you tell us where you got your info? Was it from a fellow NY shooter? I was there. Saw some NY shooters. Are you including those NY shooters at the "endless numbers" you quoted?

Who is the boss you are talking about? Did he tell you the shoot was up. Are the final numbers different than RJ's.

 

Read up to Gary's post, that is why I asked the questions.

 

But to answer YOUR questions:

I don't know, that why I asked
Gary said the state shoot was down 23%
I got the information from what Gary posted
I never quoted "endless numbers", don't know what you're talking about
The owner of the CC is the boss

 

Duff

How many of your New York friends were there? Were there as many New York shooters as last year. Didn't see you. The NY shooters I saw looked like they were having fun.

You said the shoot was down. Strange... Why are your numbers different that RJs? Where did you get the numbers? Does the NY State shoot draw for banks. What is their attendance record? Do you think it would be a good model for the OH shoots?

Why are NY shooters driving so far to shoot?

 

How do you know you didn't see me?

The questions are related to what Gary posted, I don't know what you're talking about. But one of my questions, he answered, he was talking about the state shoot, not the classic, so I asked, he answered, see how it works?

 

Duff
Does your association use pre-squadding or do they draw for banks? I notice you had around 400 in the big event. Did it get that large using that technique?

All related to the same topic right. Which technique would work better?

Again, you said the shoot was down. Where did you get the numbers? Not from RJ?

 

JG, why do you apparently think that pre-squadding and drawing for banks are mutually exclusive? It's easy enough, if you are that kind of person, to see where pre-squadding put you and pay for the events where you have good banks and either turn in the terrible banks and wait for good ones, that is, out-wait other picky shooters, or just not shoot as Gary told us 200+ chose.

If they draw for banks, you don't pay for the good ones all week, which is what most of this kind of people will do when banks are not drawn; you just jam up the pay line every day. What's the problem?

N1H1

 

Agreed. Duff had the opportunity to say that. He had the opportunity to state how his association uses it. An argument can be made to use either system.

Duff is here to disrupt only and wanted to show that.

Are we traveling to shoot on good banks or are we shooting for competition. Which is more important?

Good vs Bad or Better vs Less Better banks are purely subjective. There are no banks that are exactly equal. If you want equal you apply equal chance.

How do we criticize a management that has 3 of 5 of the largest shoots? Do we use the Duff model as NY has done? Waiting for Duff to answer that.

 

Again Jersey, you have to read the whole thread, to understand what I'm asking.

 

Duff
I read the whole thread and you failed to answer a single question and as much you have acknowledged you know nothing about the questions you were asking or implying.

Cant answer that can you?

It is your NY State shoot. What technique got you to the 400 shooter mark. Is it affected by what NY shooters say?

Thanks for telling me to re read. Your answer please.

 

Shadows on the target.

 

How does facing north make you shoot into a setting sun at any time of the day as Ken said? Waiting for a meteorological or illogical answer from kenf. This should be good.

 

Jersey, You are correct, I don't know the answers to the questions I asked. If I did, I wouldn't have asked.

In NY, there is pre squad, although I don't use it.

 

I shot the Tatooine Grand back in Stardate 5593.16. That one was a doozy with that Sand People ringer shooting from 19.

Trust me, North is no picnic when one of those suns gets in just the right spot.

 

I see that. lol

 

Good material!

 

Sorry to ruin your anticipated illogical answer. Squad 53 on Friday didn't start until just before 7. The sun setting in the west made for poor lighting conditions on the field and darkened/ shadowed the targets.

 

Presquadding is great....if you are retired, or have a buddy that can sit and wait for presquadding to open up ...(or better yet...wink, wink,... happen to know ahead of time when it will open).

Actually, I have no idea how many people presquad, but I don't have a problem with it either...as long as you draw banks.

This is why: Those who presquad are willing to pay to get both shooting times and banks pre-selected. The result is all the preferred banks get used up. There are preferred banks at every club...every club. Should a drive in shooter or working stiff get screwed cause he doesn't have the flexibility to presquad?
Is it all about money or a fair game chance for everyone? Does "who you are" make a difference?

Let the prequadders have their time (which is a great advantage anyway) but not the preferrred banks. Let's keep this a "fair chance" game. The little guys make the ATA what it is, and they are getting frustrated by the presquad, pay to get what you want crap we have now. There were a lot pissed off people trying to be competitive, and get a fair shake on squadding/banks at the Cardinal. Eventually, it will affect attendance. Do we care? Are we happy to just let the status quo continue as is? If you have the time, money, and persistance, you get can an advantage over a future Leo, a local working stiff, or a new comer to the facility who doesn't have the experience on the banks?

I've camped at Cardinal for 5 years ( 3 shoot package), so don't tell me I'm a"anti-motorhome guy". I could presquad, and at times have. But, our squad did not get one preferred bank we requested. Guess we were just to late ....huh?

I see this as a money based manipulation of the sport that is not only unfair, but frustrating, and a waste of time for at least 50% the shooters. Those that can't presquad.

 

Disadvantage - I don't care if it faces north at sunset the targets are hard to see. Whether they are regular event or shoot off birds. The targets have a shadow that makes them look dark.

On another point I heard many shooters question whether they would be back next year for various reasons such as poorly set targets, leading to long delays in getting them reset, Stuart's bank 5 & 6, condition of the roads and camping areas, brown tap water in the camping area, overflowing dumpsters.

The ideal spot has aged and management gone down you can only live on reputation so long.

Lefty

 

The almighty CC hater has arrived. Couldn't run back to the state up north quick enough and toss some hate.

 

"poorly set targets"-I watched a squad of wannabe 21 yard shooters in front of me ask for a re-set on their very first trap. They soon got it and still stunk. I noticed they didn't re-set the next three fields. Thank goodness-I finished with a 94!

 

Oleo, you were probably shoot the papers with the good wad. LMAO

 

Ha, ha. Me-egg on face. Yup, I did shoot those wannabe Federal Papers.

That 21/25 on the third trap finished my day. Must have been a bad box!

 

My last name is spelled Spengler, not Spangler.

Luke Spengler

 

How about that David Radulovich in the doubles match. Enters one event, and posts a 99. Wow.

What shooting has this guy done to make him such a good shot in ATA?

Where did he come from? Did he ever compete anywhere else?


Ever shoot a 99 in Doubles?

 

As in Mudd...not Mud...

 

I shot the Cardinal Classic Wed - Sun. We presquadded the entire shoot and got Bank 7 for every event despite writing on the form "No Bank 5, 6, 7'. We threw those in, were first in line squadding when the CEB opened and were told there were no full squads available for the entire event and had to break up the squad, despite there being over 50 people in line behind me. I've seen all I need to see and won't be back.
-dave comroe

 

I'll betcha you would have gotten nothing but bank 5 or 6 at PA too when Stuart is in charge. Best take it up with him!

 

Choosing banks in advance is like NASCAR letting racers choose starting positions in advance.

 

The pre-squad at our state shoot would let you choose banks or what time of day (early, middle or late squads) but not both. You would not get the exact bank or time of day but it would be close.

 

Sounds like a plan. How much would you like to bet? How should we arrange payment? I am not taking it up with anyone, just going to vote with my wallet.

 

Pretty good. We didn't presquad for the PSSA shoot on Monday - Wed this year, stood in line that morning and shot great banks. I've never heard of anyone pre-squadding at PSSA and ending up with 5 and 6.

 

I tried pre-squadding last year and was weeks late. In this case the early bird gets the worm. Lat week I got my choice of banks but I did not have the requirement of saving a whole squad. Saving a whole squad complicates things. Could it be we should eliminate the whole squad issue all together?

When I talked with Dan Bonillas during the week he said they could rarely do that. Often the names were thrown into a box and drawn out.

Bonillas said. "In this era the ATA is afraid to inconvenience the big shooters in any way. Eliminate the group squadding and you remove some cheating."

 

We shot nothing but banks 2/4/10/11 all week and didn't pre-squad. Of course, we didn't need full squads either. If certain banks are needed for better scores it might be necessary to break up a squad. Of course, then you just might get on a squad from hell as my wife had in Singles. Life isn't always fair.

I believe Harlan broke 200 on bank 7. Bank 7 is better than anything at PA. Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

The staff at CC doesn't know how to set targets. They set the targets soft and short. We were not the only ones asking for reset, they were so busy there was significant delay. The man doing the reset knew exactly what needed to be done. Up 2 and 2 turns on the spring. He even reset the houses before we got.

FG quit being anal, this site complains constantly how targets are set elsewhere guess it doesn't apply to CC.

Lefty

 

Leftout
Knowing you are always right in at least your own mind would you mind reposting a few of those posts where our members here said people elsewhere don't know how to set targets.

I think you will find that most of the forum members here think the targets should be harder without reset. I would have expected you to find them way overly challenging and the interview I had with Dan Bonillas explained that well don't you think?

And to that could you post where I thought the targets for the week were either too easy or too hard. I am getting a new hip and knee. I couldn't hit them anywhere. One of those weeks for me standing on the line was a treat. The harder the better.

There are many posts on here by folks smarter than me saying that the pat traps have problems throwing easy targets in the wind. I did not change the rules for a shorter target.

Also...you may want to search the definition of the word "anal"--a complainer that pays too much attention to detail. That would not describe you on this thread would it?

As to that brown water stuff. You may have been drinking out of the wrong hose. Grab a breath mint.

 

Ohio shooters met some stiff competition. Event winners were from (8) different states:

RI, NH, CA, OH, SD, IN, PA, and KS. Ohioans won (2) events.

Regarding the target setting, we had the traps reset on 2 events. Oddly enough, one of those was a doubles event, and we were the last squad (at 8:00 Friday PM). So, one has to ask how many squads shot those traps when they were a good 3' to the left, if not more?

 

You can't read. He said shooting in a setting sun which you interpreted as shooting into a setting sun. Two totally different things.

 

How many yards short were they? Did you ever personally set a trap? Can you tell us how you can see a target is short or long when it drops at least 66 yards from where you're standing and the ground may not be perfectly level? Up two what? There was even some idiot who complained the centers were knocked out of his targets not realizing the setting Sun was casting shadows across the target.

Funny how I heard the same complaint about the targets at Sparta being short or soft from a top All-American Veteran shooter on Thursday. Did you ever suspect the targets themselves varied somewhat in weight as proclaimed by that shooter? That makes for erratic targets too!

 

You are wrong. Twice in fact.

 

Ken was talking about the background and added the sun in the conversation as part of the background. I took it that way also......that he was shooting into the sun. He could have used the proper word sunset.

 

So you always request bank 3 at PA and are sure to get it. Dream on!

 

I was referring to your last statement. You were wrong in each sentence you wrote. I have no idea what you are talking about here. Though your wife did shoot on my squad on Bank 3 at least once this summer.

 

If someone tells you what's wrong it gives the organization the chance to fix it to make it better in the future. Not here, if you point anything out on this site you are the bad guy and anti CC. What a crock, I think spending $32 per 100 and shooting 1600 of their targets gives us the right to point out deficiencies. Buying the three shoot camping package gives me the right to complain about the water, which also needs fixed.

Lefty

 

I did watch Harlan shoot Singles on either bank 6 or 7 one day-that's a fact. He only dropped one Singles target all week-that's a fact. Evidently you didn't have a full squad when wifey got on yours that day although she doesn't remember any bank 3's last year!

 

I wouldn't be happy with brown water either. Fortunately my hotel at Lyra Dr. had clean sheets and plenty of hot water. We even walked to a bar/restaurant from our location every night but one-had to make that side trip to the Cheese Cake Factory once

When you bring up target issues you'll always get my attention. I set targets over 20 years at our local club and I've already heard it all. Adjusting distances in the wind and declaring them more legal is usually wrong!

 

Thank you for the correction

 

I was in the Outdoor Eating area and I heard it from lots of shooters, I was in my Wheelchair, and did not go anywhere else.

That actually was the topic of discussion at several tables, all day of the Ohio State Singles Championship, holding up opening banks made their decision to not shoot. A lot of them said they had driven a long distance, and were considering not coming back.

The Cardinal Center does not need this happening, the CC / jack Fishburn needs to be told this so Thet can Print in the New Programs that Cardinal Center will be drawing Starting Traps in the future!!!!

Gary Bryant........ Dr.longshot

 

Seems to be a lot you don't know or remember. Harlan broke the 200 on 9. Newsflash, he is better than us. He would not have shot on 7 if his pre-squadding came through. He is currently sleeping in my guestroom in PA, is there anything else you'd like me to ask him?

 

I never knew more than one shooter looks like Harlan but with my eyes anything's possible. Still, I'm in doubt!