Hey OSTA Zone team event too costly.

Go OSTA that’s my attitude but having a 200 bird event for singles @ $84 before cost for ammo is rediculous.

More challenging targets with 100 bird event is more reasonable. We need as many participating as possible. A focus on throwing more targets so the OSTA makes more money is myopic. Please start focusing on putting more shooters on the line vs throwing more targets. If not the OSTA is doomed. jmho

 

Jim, not sure I understand your comment about the OSTA making more money with the price of targets for the zone shoot. The OSTA does not get any of the target money from the club hosting the zone shoot. The target fee's go directly to the hosting club. The cardinal center set's the target price. The OSTA just follow's their price for everything. Just my opinion, the OSTA should not be setting the target fee's for the zone shoot. The hosting club should be able to set the fee's at there club, providing they are not more than the fees being charged at the state shoot. Just my opinion. I think a lot of clubs would charge less than the OSTA set fee's, Therefore the hosting clubs would get more shooters. The OSTA would get more daily fee's!!!! Just a thought.

 

Just to clarify what BIG PAPA meant by the OSTA setting target prices for the clubs hosting the Ohio Zone shoots, the OSTA selects one target price that all the Zone shoot host clubs use. The OSTA arrives at that target price by polling the host clubs and setting the target price to match that of the club charging the most. For example, if Newport GC, Monroe GC and Marietta GC all charge $28 per hundred but Middletown charges $30, the Zone shoot target price for all 4 clubs would be set at $30 JUST FOR THE ZONE SHOOT.

As is most often the case, I’m in complete agreement with BIGPAPA when he says the OSTA should let the host clubs select their own target prices. Let the shooters choose what club they want to attend for the Zone shoots. In this modern world there is no reason to force shooters to attend a certain club just so they can vote or compare scores. With these fancy computer things we have, votes and scores can be submitted and tabulated correctly regardless of location. If I want to drive to Monroe CG for the Zone shoot because their target price is lower, background is better or just because I like the pies made by that club manager (and I do!) then so be it. The Zone shoots have been dying on the vine. Let’s try something new!

 

Edit: my apologies to Jim/Canton for drifting off topic from his original post. I agree with Jim/Canton that $84 bucks to shoot the Zone Team event at the Ohio State shoot is nuts. Use a 100 bird event or allow shooters to shoot half of Saturday’s 200 bird event. There I go again, talking about making changes to some of the sacred cows! Is the correct time make change after everyone has stopped shooting registered?

 

I would think the reason behind the 200 bird event is to attract those needing it for their grand slam.

 

Sacred cows make great steaks.

 

65 years ago I was looking forward to attending my first Ohio Zone Shoot. The shoot was started some time before 1957 and it was started to give back to the shooters for supporting the OSTA. Then it was a reasonable priced shoot consisting of 100 16yd targets and it included a free lewis class purse with $5 put into the purse for every entry. Now for the Zone shoot we also have 50 pair doubles and 100 handicap with the elephant in the room being $42 per hundred targets plus $5 fees each day and ammo at atleast $10 per box. This totals out to $338 to shoot targets only for the 400 targets plus the additional cost if you want to play any options. Plus travel and food costs. Also with our youth shooting programs there may be a spouse or a child or in some cases multiple children who would like to participate.

Now my question is WHY the ridiculous price of $42 per hundred when the clubs charge approximately $28 to $32 with some maybe up to $35 for their normal registered shoot. This surely doesn't show a lot of appreciation toward the shooters who have supported the OSTA. Whoever was the mastermind of this should be ashamed of themselves and should be remembered if they run for any office in the future. Just my opinion.

Dave Berlet

 

Don, thanks for correcting me on how the zone target prices are set. You are correct, The hosting clubs are "polled" for target prices, then the price is set to match that of the highest price club. Many years ago that may have been a reasonable way to set target prices, but not today. One of the hosting clubs that I like to shoot at is charging $30.00 per hundred for targets this year. BTW, they are making money. They are FORCED to charge $42 for the ZONE shoot only. I would bet they would get more shooters at their price of $30.00 then the "forced" price of $42. Think about how much fun it is for the club manager to explain why last week they charged $30, then for the zone shoot $42, then next week they have another shoot and charge their normal price of $30. It makes these guys look like the democrats took over for one week. If you shoot all 400 of the zone targets at this club you are paying $48 more then any of their other shoots for the year. Of course, the OSTA is losing the daily fees because of the reduced number of shooters.

Dave, you are correct. Just because one of the hosting club's has higher overhead or is "mis managed" every zone shooter is forced to pay the price or just stay home!!!! Maybe another club should be selected to replace the "high" priced club. At the rate they are going, you will be able to hold the zone shoot at any two trap club.

Well I have ranted enough. I will bet there are a lot of shooters that will agree with me.

 

I have managed the books and the ATA shoots for the Williams County Gun Club for some time. We are a club run by shooters, for the benefit of the shooters. We have a given amount of fixed costs, that we have to pay to keep the doors open and the utilities on, whether we throw any targets or not. Then we have variable costs, that are directly related to the number of targets thrown. We have volunteer labor for our open practice days and monthly meat shoots. Volunteers certainly help the world go round in our shooting sports. But you can't run an ATA shoot on volunteer labor. We also give 13 ounces of silver to Class and Yardage group winners, and HOA. So on the ATA shoots, our costs are labor, silver or awards, and targets. You have to plan your labor force for a good day, so on a bad weather day, you may lose money. That's part of the risk, but when you keep those records of cost and income, you can make good decisions for your club as well as the shooter- and they are the only reason we are in business. We do have a very modest membership fee, but that doesn't pay many bills, and you don't have to be a member to shoot. The only way to pay our bills is throw targets.

We have been reluctant to raise target prices, but target costs and labor costs have forced that. Right now we are charging $30 per hundred for ATA, and with current costs, that's our business decision. We are hosting the split NW Zone with Newport, and we are doing it as a service to the shooters. It takes significantly more work than a regular ATA shoot, it's 2 days, and only 200 targets per day instead of 300, so our efficiency is not quite as good with labor. However- we don't give silver for the Zone shoot, so those 2 expenses off-set. We certainly don't need to charge $42 per hundred for the targets thrown that weekend, but we have a real good handle on our costs. More like $32 per hundred could and should be our fee, just slightly over our regular fees due to labor risk that weekend. I understand that each zone has clubs with different costs than we do, so they may need to charge more. Maybe they don't have ANY volunteer labor EVER. That's a big variable. But with the huge increases in every aspect of shooter expense at this time, it doesn't make sense to me to be required to charge more than our business analysis justifies. I pay different fees for identical products nearly every day, based on their overhead costs and their desired margins, but that's my choice. (For instance, a bottle of my favorite adult refreshment in a Nashville establishment vs. my local Eagles club).

I hope the OSTA directors (who are doing a great job, and definitely not over-paid!!) would consider rescinding the mandatory costs for this year's Zone Shoot, and let the clubs determine their own fees for targets. We want to keep the local clubs in business, and letting them make that decision is just good management. We need to throw targets! If anyone thinks that someone may drive to a competing club in the case of the split zone based on target costs being cheaper at one venue, I think you're fooling yourself. I also think to over-charge the shooters for an event that not every club gets to participate in, is an advantage to those participating clubs over and above the privilege of hosting the zone, as well as a dis-service to the shooter.

Joe Nester, Williams County Gun Club

 

Thanks Joe for providing a great response to this thread. I think some time many folks forget that running a club for trapshooters is a BUSINESS. Additionally, many folks do not understand that with every business you have FIXED COST and VARIABLE COST. Fixed cost (things like insurance, utilities, real estate taxes, etc) are there even if you do not throw any targets. So, the fewer targets you throw the more they cost you. Therefore, the more targets you throw reduces the each cost per target. One of the variable cost are the targets. Regardless of the number of targets you throw, they all cost you the same price. As you stated, a large portion of every clubs variable cost is the labor. The more volunteer labor from club members and shooters who volunteer to help will reduce that cost and help the club stay in BUSINESS. One way shooters can help keep a club in business and the prices of targets down is to volunteer to help the club with anything rather then EXPECTING a few to carry the burden. Do not be afraid to VOLUNTEER. A perfect example is Moultan Gun club. They open up every Wednesday evening for practice shooting. Many of the shooters volunteer to help setup to speakers etc. They have no labor cost. Dirk does a great job of keeping the traps loaded. This is how you keep your cost effective.

Again thanks for letting me rant. Do not be afraid to tell the volunteer's THANKS!!!!

 

Hey BIG PAPA, remind me again how this voting thing works for our zone director. Are we allowed to vote for a write-in candidate? I’m thinking a guy like Joe Nester is just what we need!

 

The ballot does permit for write in's. Joe being a great business man and a very people kind of person, makes WC a great place to shoot. I know that Joe is throwing in the towel at WC. He and a couple of guys have busted their back side to make WC a great shooter oriented club and do everything to keep their cost under control. I am not sure the "I know everything" shooter's (or worse the non-shooter's) appreciated all the numerous hours Joe has volunteered to make WC the great club it is. He will be greatly missed at the club. Maybe some day, some folks will see the great value he added to the club.

 

I could say the same thing about the fella that used to run Newport.

 

Weren't you an OSTA Director as well as the manager of the Newport Gun Club when it was decided that target prices would be set in this manner? Didn't you vote for target prices to be set this way while Newport hosted a zone shoot? Seems like you did some of the "forcing."

 

I've been out of the mix for so long now that I don't know the cost of a box of targets today. I had a guy tell me today that the cost was around $15 a case. That seems high to me but I don't know. Anyone know the cost of a case?

 

Actually BIG PAPA has long advocated for the zone shoot host clubs to set their own target prices and options. In years past there wasn’t nearly as big of a target price difference between the clubs. Jaqua’s was usually a buck or two higher and therefore set the price. Never had a $10+ price discrepancy like we are seeing this year. Middletown set the price this year at $42 per 100.

 

Retre, let me give you the answers to some of your questions. Yes I was an OSTA Director. Yes, I was president of the Newport Sportsmen club for 15 years. As Don said there was never over $1 or $2 difference between the clubs. Remember I only got one vote. I never supported the pricing method but, for $1 it was not worth fusing over. I did get the OSTA board the make the change where the hosting club could set the options and their prices for the zone shoot at their club. If you remember, the OSTA used to set the options and their prices for the entire zone shoot. Retre, just curious. Are you managing or have you ever managed a gun club? Just so you know, it required numerous hours to do the correct job even with a crew of great volunteers. Of course it does not make any difference what the club or organization you volunteer with. There are always some "I know everything" folks every where who never do or volunteer to do any work to help make the club better. If you do not believe me, try volunteer to run "your" club. See how long it takes you to get your belly full for a thankless job.

 

Brad $15 is close they are a little over$14, less than $15. Last targets we got.

 

Looks like the OSTA Friday night business meeting will have higher attendance this year. I'm sure this topic will be raised.

 

Kelli also the removing of a FOREVER ENSHRINED member of our hall of fame needs to be discussed. After someone is inducted into any hall of fame there should NO reason for anyone to be removed for any reason. Check the dictionary and see what the description of (enshrined) and (forever) is. In my opinion this was a over reach and it needs to be rectified as soon as possible

Dave Berlet

 

Who was removed from the Hall of Fame?

 

The shooter in question is Randy Wilhelm. After his induction things went terribly wrong for him and I do not condone or support anything that transpired during these times, but what happened after his induction should not have anything to do with his status, and if there were things before his induction they should have been brought forward then and handled before his induction. On the HOF certificate it states ( where a likeness and the appropriate records shall be forever enshrined). The dictionary meanings of forever are (for a limitless time) (at all times) (until the end of time) (forevermore). No or's ands buts if''s, everything about forever is very absolute and he should be returned to our hall and something like this should never be considered in the future.

Dave Berlet

 

geeesh. and i thought my shoot was high at 14.00 a 100.

 

TTT