3-Hole Targets Are Meaningless Then And Now

We can easily read a bit into this and say top shooters were breaking 100 straights in Handicap for a very long time to achieve their Grand Slam. Presumably, many of the earliest 100's from the 27 yd. line were broken on those infamous 3-hole targets some say we need to fix the broken handicap system. I'd say it simply means the 27 yd. line is very outdated and the only shooters affected by wider angles are the weekend warriors. Here's the facts-you decide!

 

isn't this why they invented disrupters?

 

And then they narrowed the angles. Three hole targets, and the 30 yard, line will solve the problem. And a B.O.D. to get some BALLS and take back the job of running the bone headed EC. Roger C.

 

Interrupters were early 70's. Still little effect-except maybe for Orlich.

 

Rog, the 27 yd line was meaningless then along with 3-hole targets. I'm sure you remember many of those top shooters just like I do.

 

its been my observation in life that if a sport is easy, they make it competitive with hard confusing rules. trap has been around so long, the way around has been past down to a point where some aren't challenged anymore.
maybe that will happen with 2 hole currently? once a kid masters the slow targets, whats next? hang gliding? see my point?
you have talent and you have the gifted.

there are those that work hard at winning, and there are some that just hit them without being awake.
once enough people see that the gifted have settled into a sport, many just give up....making the purpose of competition a moot point and expense waste of time.

this is common in all sports.

 

its always been my belief that top dogs should retire after so many wins, or be moved into an entirely new category, like a master class or pro class where only the best of the best battle it out. and do it well beyond the 27 with 5 holers.
fully sponsored, fully televised, fully made into celebrities and well deserving of the title. push them into a glass ceiling and free up basic traps top space, for the new blood to move up.

 

When cheaters took over the game, and no one complained about their actions, every thing about the sport came to a halt.
JUST a few; setting pop up targets. changing target settings and the ATA did not enforce any rules, turning down angle, calling targets for your buddies.
When honor leaves the game, there is nothing left. Roger C.

 

Rog, what difference did wider angles make to top shooters?

 

We should also ask how many 100's are broken from yardages below 27 yards?

 

God trap shooters are stupid. I made my living off of people that knew more about shooting clay targets than I did. When the ATA went to 2 hole voice pulls I won so much more money. From 1988 till 2004 when I quit it was easy pickings. Believe what you want but as one of those "big Dogs" give me shorter and narrower.

The ATA is an old rich fat man that dying but want to believe otherwise.

 

Maybe we are not all as STUPID as you think, that is why I don't play the money. Trapshooting is a fun hobby for me not my career and I don't plan on supporting you and evidently I am not the only one.

 

"Shorter", actually the old rule book mandated 48-52 yards. The new one now reads 49-51 yards. Explain "shorter". I doubt one yard difference is all that much. Now, shorter Doubles-that's another story.

 

Actually Dawg…..

You have admitted to helping shooters in your area by throwing easier targets. You are on record for that right? A generation of eastern PA shooters had inflated averages.

You are a cheat at best. You are a stain on the forum. I can’t understand why admin doesn’t upgrade and give you the boot.

You talking about challenging targets is a joke. In my opinion your biggest challenge is integrity. How about refocusing on that.

 

If you are using a radar gun and you want a consistent 50+ yard target, you will need to throw it 44.5+ mph. That is why the stakes aren’t used. They are in conflict with the short target radar gun.

 

So Smithy, where did you shoot all those 3-hole targets and are they still throwing 'em? I've only been shooting Trap since 1963 and the last club in Eastern PA that threw a 3-hole target was the old South End gun club in Reading PA and that ended decades ago. I threw a 2-hole 50 yd. target at a club facing South and it worked great. That said, I shot plenty of targets at Thurmont MD and guess what-2-hole. Smithy, I doubt you ever visited the inside of a traphouse and don't know your butt from a hole in a trap.

Targets were set at 44 mph at the club I shot at today. They appeared just right.

 

Next Smithy is gonna tell us the story again of Frank Little's shells that were specially made for him at over 1,300 fps. He knows because his best friend's wife's cousin's sister-in-laws secret lover raided Frank's garage and personally tested 'em over his $69 Chrony Chronograph and will attest to the results.

 

OLEO, You keep saying everyone was 2 holing the shooters, but you were the first one to admit to the cheating game. Maybe because you are trying to say that all club managers were cheating. Just in your post above, you accused every club in Pa. of being cheaters. That brought them all down to your level.
Roger C.

 

The way this bunch gets along I'd suggest putting yall in the round pen and trading till one's left standing
Guss

 

Rog, maybe you should admit there are virtually no 100's in handicap from any yardage below the 27 yd. line. They've been breaking those 100's for decades before the rules were changed. I showed you the proof now please discount it if you can. If wider angles would save ATA trap why not make 4 hole 55 yd targets mandatory? How wide must they be before the top shooters would be adversely affected and the chumps would again dominate? Rog, give all of us a number and I'll have our delegate bring it up at next years' meeting with your name on it. Maybe taking away voice systems for 27 yd top shooters and subjecting them to bubble gum chewing hand pulling young ladies is the answer to lowering their scores?

 

OLEO, I do not profess to have all the answers. But I can for sure say, easier targets is not the answer. An ATA that does not enforce the rules is not the way.
When they let cheaters run the show, you see what we end up with. You can not have every club breaking the rules of the game and then feeding the results into a national organization to depict who is the top scorer. Even you should be able to comprehend that is flawed info.
You say you have been shooting registered starting in 1963, and you still do not understand, that honor is the only thing that holds an organization together.
You and the other cheaters have no honor.
MY suggestions would be; 3 hole targets, 50 yard length, 30 yard line, bring back the industry class, anyone working for or taking restitution from industry would fall in this class. Then and most important leaders that will enforce the rules of the sport. Just my humble opinion. Roger C.

 

Rog, the rulebook allows clubs to throw 51 yd targets and any width beyond a two hole. If club managers thought wider, longer targets would make more people attend their shoots don't you think they'd comply? I wholeheartedly agree we need more yardage and that would cut down scoring by high average Handicap shooters. Start there because without more yardage nothing will ever change. BTW, no club I know has shot a 3-hole target in over 30 years-how old were you then? I'm sure you remember some of those old long gone Remington factory reps like Amerigo or Cockman. Were they a threat to anyone on the trap range? Anyone running a shooting clinic or accepting some compensation for teaching shooting should be Industry-right? Don't forget those shooting glass salesmen or gunsmiths too!

 

Ollie you must really hate trapshooting! Many clubs have quit throwing registered targets and many of the ones left are only treading water so you want the remaining clubs to spend a lot of money pouring concrete? Why don't you first try throwing the targets farther, make the angles wider, and make the handicap system work by having mandatory reductions. A very simple way to settle the professional \ amateur situation is just have the shooters that want to shoot for money and prizes issued one color ATA card and the shooters who want to shoot targets only issued a different color card. Problem solved.

Dave Berlet

 

Why does all the blame for the 2 hole targets fall on the clubs?
If shooters knowingly shoot those illegal targets aren't they also guilty of cheating? If shooters had refused to shoot those illegal targets, I believe those clubs would have stopped throwing them.

 

Dave, you and I have been around a long time. We were there when those small clubs threw ATA targets when it was profitable. Each small club in our area had dates the ATA protected-meaning no competition. The larger clubs usually ran one or two shoots/year like a State or Zone shoot leaving plenty of gravy dates for small clubs. First, the ATA let anyone willing to hold an ATA shoot on the same dates as other nearby clubs to compete. Then large venues kept adding more shoots so where did those shooters go? It was no longer was necessary to patronize smaller clubs for targets needed for classification or Handicap. Just go to one or two of the large shoots and most targets you needed were easily acquired.
Next, the ATA kept lowering the number of targets needed for yardage increases and all that did is drive shooters over to the large venues. Who wants to shoot at a 3 squad Handicap event and get yardage for an 86?
Funny, how I got into a discussion with a local club manager yesterday as to why he discontinued running ATA and Big 50 events after around 50 years of managing 'em. Like he said it's simply not profitably anymore. He needed to give up his entire day for a 10 squad shoot and after paying his help he often lost money.
The old South End gun club in Reading PA often ran over 50 200 target Singles events on a Saturday 40 or so years ago. Now, they're lucky to get 10. You wanna know what happened? All those shooters form that era are dead.

 

People shoot where they can break good scores-always did.

 

vanzant clay pigeon farm, mo throws 3 holers.... and proud of it. my shooters thank me too. they figure if they are going to drive as far as they do, they at least want a challenge worth driving for.

 

Great, how many State or Zone shoots are they holding?

 

Dave, great idea. Make that proposal to your Ohio delegate and have him bring it up at this year's meeting!

 

none. we are strictly local fun shoots. my clients cant justify all the money to (register a score.) most learned long time ago, that within 5 to 10 years, no one knew them by name anyway.
sorta like keeping a junked 1925 ford rotting in the barn registered.
or going to a state fair and pushing thru a crowd thinking everyone was your friend.

 

OLEO,

You keep coming back to your dumb quote. Most shooters shoot to better them selves at the sport. Making the sport easer is not helping them it is hindering them. You are to dense to realize the error of your thinking.
The shooters aren't getting better, the game is being made easier to break more targets. But the more proficient carry AAA classes and the less able shooters make it to class B.
Class AAA came it being after the flight rules were s##t canned. Roger C.

 

Rog, AAA shooters like Ohye, Stafford, Bonillas, Munson or Little among many were carrying those 99+ Singles averages for decades-even in the so-called 3-hole era. Stafford has the current record of 40 years between 1971 and 2019. Please tell all of us what hole those targets were set in and what hole we'd need to set 'em now to slow them down. As I said, the very best shooters were never affected by wider angles just the schmucks.

 

So what is your plan? GET RID OF THE GOOD SHOOTERS IS THIS YOUR PLAN? ROGER C.

 

No Rog, other shooters complained about top shooters in class AA that they didn't feel they stood a chance of beating-hence the ATA tried to accommodate the cry babies and added AAA. Other shooters answered the issue by simply traveling to shoots in a motor home, spending most of their time partying and socializing and shoot for trinkets. Back in the old days the bars in Vandalia were filled with shooters but that sure changed when DWI laws changed the game-remember those days?

 

There is no answer. The game is not broken, the prizes are. The cash/cars are long gone. The only reward is time outside with your buddies. You would not play skins against Tiger, why would you play Lewis against Stafford? If you want to gamble there are casinos everywhere now. Go there.

I love shooting trap. There are not many activities where I can "play" with my two Sons, Wife, and Father in Law at the same game at the same time.

 

Wanna bring money back into the game just make options mandatory. Within a year most clubs would go bankrupt. Heck, there's plenty of live bird shooters that shoot "birds only".

 

oleo, What is your plan? The ATA forbids mandatory options. Give us the benefit of your infinitive wisdom and tell us how you would repair the sport of trap shooting. Roger C.

 

Rog, in a few more years we'll all be dead and now we can't even get anyone interested in taking over the existing gun clubs. The only thing we mutually agree on is more concrete at the larger venues-that's where most of the registered shooting occurs anyway. That'll make the game more interesting for awhile and watching the washed up old 27 yd. shooters crying because the 27 yd .line is no longer relevant will be fun That should encourage 'em to take reductions too. If anyone actually believes they'll need more than one or two banks to accommodate those few longer yardage shooters I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I's sell 'em cheap. Better yet, put those banks on the least desirable backgrounds if you want to see more crying instead of the special banks they now live on. When I was much younger we hand mixed, formed and poured those additional 2 yards from the 25 to the 27 and it still shows at many of the small clubs in our area. If a few yards of additional concrete are going to break the piggy bank at a place like Cardinal Center or Sparta the end is getting really close for both places.
As far as mandatory options, of course the ATA would never go along with that proposal, but we all know they can change the rules whenever it's convenient.

 

All the old western LV and Reno shoots had mandatory money. Live Bird shooting has mandatory money. The old ATA Grand's had mandatory money. I'll change my quote some. Most of todays active ATA shooters are stupid. How's that?

 

The ATA only forbids compulsory purses IF ATA trophies or ATA added money are provided at the shoot (rule Section VII, A). So it could be done.

 

The first few years that I shot the Grand there were compulsory purses. Compulsory Ford purses on both the hdcp and dbls and if I remember there was a $1 dollar 1 money compulsory purse on the hdcp's at least on the Grand American Handicap. The compulsory Ford purses ended somewhere in the middle 70's. There was money set back for repeat wins on the Ford purses. I don't remember exactly how this worked, but the winners names were put in a pot and names were drawn and if your name was drawn it went on a list and if you ever won the same Ford purse and your name was on the list you won extra money over the value of the Ford purse. Maybe Brad can tell us exactly how these repeat purses worked? Now that I think about it I am wondering what ever happened to the repeat money when they stopped the Ford Purses. Maybe H B can tell us this, also if I am correct on the $1 dollar 1 money purse?

I believe that for a period of time there were to be no compulsory purses at any ATA shoots and it has since been changed to say no compulsory purses on any event that ATA trophies, or money are to be awarded. Again I am trusting my memory on this. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Dave Berlet

 

Speaking of 3 hole or 2 hole targets I don't believe that the narrower angles started until a few years after the Winchester 1524 trap came to be the trap that most trap targets were thrown from. Around 1960 is when these traps came on the scene, and after some the time the temptation to go from the 3 hole to the2 hole just couldn't be resisted it was just so easy to do. Some clubs even drilled a 2 1/2 hole so they felt that they complied with the rules and after a period of time it was basically mostly all 2 hole targets. In 1995 the ATA mandated all 3 hole targets. Wow you should have heard all the crying and complaining that year. Probably sounded about the same as if they had been in the out house when it got upset. Only as I remember it.

Dave Berlet

 

The mandatory doubles ford purse was around in 1978 for sure because Leo won them. In doubles you could win them all but in handicap only one and the total. . The handicap was there a few years more I think. I won a ford purse for the preliminary in 1988 and I think the same one in1989 and got the 1000 bucks. I could be off a year or so but I did get the extra grand, after I pointed it out to Dave Bopp that they (the ATA) owed me the money. I always read the program very closely and never did trust the ATA when money was involved.

 

The ATA can never accept the concept of aligning with ISSF ammo requirements of 24 gram loads.

 

i have some local top shooters come to my range who never shot 3 holers. 1/2 way thru a game, they look at me in the scoring chair as they rotate and roll their eyes at me. i tell them its good practice for windy days and they smile.

 

At my local two trap club club, I set two hole setting at the beginning of the day --Shooters want to break birds - Go to three hole at night -- and at night, widen it to the max and screw it tight for money shoots. - Increased trap shooters by 50% last year.

 

gotta love those old western traps with the old 5 holers. its fun and entertaining watching the line from the chair, seeing shooters chase a skeet style hard left and right trap target!

first time I was thrown a 5 hole target was at ft eustis, va.. everywhere else I shot at the time was 3 hole. my scores would go from low 20's to 10 or 12 at eustis. it became a personal quest to beat that 5 hole machine. so, for a long time, id go to eustis to learn that machine.
and when I did, 3 holers seemed slow.

that's how I improved my trap game in the day.

now that 2 hole is the game, I stopped registering birds since tossing birds from a yard trap was about its equal.

 

Back when men shot trap we would turn up the spring and put it in the 5 hole for 16 yard shoot offs.

 

yep.
someday, come to my little hole in the wall and see we still do...on an old western trap too.

 

I wish I'd been able to partake in the days when a 96 in caps could net you 4 grand and a win might get you a new car. But I never had that opportunity, so I just show up at a club in the 21st century, shoot whatever comes out of the house, and have a ton of fun doing it. If I win $500-1,000 I allow myself to enjoy it like I won the superbowl. Why be miserable lamenting about not having a time machine?

Besides, as the youngest inductee in ATA HOF history once told me, "It makes no sense to compare todays targets to pre-voice release / pre-interrupter targets because all good trap shooters read the traps back then." Squads like the Remington Pros called for a bird every 3 or 4 seconds so they could easily read the trap. Find an old video and watch how fast they shot. Ask Brad about reading traps, he's been honest enough to admit the obvious. Leo did it too. I've known enough old-time trap shooters to know that anybody with half a brain read the traps back when it was possible. Why wouldn't you? Anybody who says otherwise is a liar, a fool, or both.

So what's harder, 3-hole faster targets when you usually know where they're going, or slightly slower much narrower targets when it's hard to predict the angle? Scores suggest the former, despite trap reading. But that doesn't account for technology and information sharing. For example, Phil Kiner couldn't show you a slow-motion video of your mistakes in 1968 and teach you exactly how to adjust your $15,000 shotgun to shoot where you are looking. So you had to find a talented hillbilly to bend your barrel using the crotch of a tree trunk. Does anybody think ammo in 1968 was in the same class as modern AAs or Nitro-27s with hard, spherical shot and plastic wads?

In the final analysis it's all just mental masturbation, so why bicker about it? Just go shoot and have fun knowing it's never going to pay your mortgage. Then go have a beer or an Old Fashioned with friends. Life is good, enjoy it!

-Roy

 

If you want to see BLATANT OLD-SCHOOL TRAP READING in action go to YouTube and search on D. Lee Braun: Fundamentals of Trapshooting, and go to 26:23. The Remington Pros average less than three seconds between targets. The only guy on the squad who doesn't know where the target is headed is the poor bastard shooting lead-off.

-Roy

 

You didn't get any nibbles on your last two posts, so I'll bite and answer the question you posed.

"So what's harder, 3-hole faster targets when you usually know where they're going, or slightly slower much narrower targets when it's hard to predict the angle?"

Never had to make a "panic move" on a hard left from one or a hard right from five did you? For the VAST MAJORITY of shooters that shot when the game was tougher it was/is the 3 hole target.

You might believe that EVERYONE that shot 3 hole targets could read the trap, but you would be wrong. Even after the interrupters were on the traps, a good squad that put in the time, had the dedication, AND money, to shoot TENS OF THOUSANDS of targets EVERY year could still "read" a trap. More power to them.

You used the word BLATANT. I assume in caps to show your disdain. (contempt) The definition of the adjective blatant is,

(of bad behavior) done openly and unashamedly

You are wrong on that too. There was no "bad behavior" going on. That would imply cheating. It's like saying a card counter, one that has put hours and hours into figuring out the game is a cheater. Makes no sense.

Now I have a question for you. If you had been shooting back then, and you had the time, money, and the dedication to spend all that time and money, to figure out the trap, would you have done it?
BTW, you needed 4 other guys on your squad that were just as smart. You couldn't just walk up to any Joe Trapshooter in line at the classification table and expect him to know how to do it.

As far as the 2 hole target being harder because you don't know where it's going? It's not. I shot 3 hole targets over both the old Win singles with the interrupter and on the new Pat traps. My 3 hole singles averages were only in the 96% range with only 4 or 5 hundreds per year. I had a bunch of 99's but that doesn't matter. What matters is that after laying off for something like 10 years I was talked into rejoining and the targets were 2 hole. I had a 99 the first shoot. News flash, I ain't that good.

Missed the last one out, quarter left from two, because I lollygagged it. SOB was just hanging there. If they would have been 3 hole targets going the correct speed and distance, there is no way on Gods Green earth that I would have broken a 99. Just a fact.

There ya go, you got a bite.

 

lets not forget...even if people could read targets, they still had to hit it with a gun that could.

like my team leader always said just prior to the 410 match,( from my days at the world shoot,)
'the wind is blowing on everyone guys. just do your best and hit as many as you can. itll get sorted out at the scoring wall.'

 

D. Lee Braun was a skeet shooter. He shot some trap but if anyone knows which way a target is going it's a skeet shooter. I'd be interested in what his trap average was, but not enough to look it up myself. The majority of the old Remington pros were first skeet shooters, then trap shooters.

The best trap readers were shooters I'm sure you never heard of. Factory Trap ammo today isn't any better than trap ammo when I started in 1974. If anything it is probably worse. The old Fed papers or Winchester Super Target's were great shells. I broke hundreds from the 27 with both. Fed papers had a smell that was trap shooting, Super Targets just stank.

Also most ATA shooters can't hit doubles targets and they know where both are going. The reason doubles scores are so high today is that they only go 40 yards and when I started doubles went 50 yards. I wonder why that is?

 

i still use lees old tape to intro new trap shooters to the sport. that old camera on the 1100 still amazes me.

 

I’m laughing out loud while typing this. There is no other way to describe the smelll of those Super Targets.
I always shot Fed papers during the year for caps, and at the Grand for everything. The smell was just the “icing on the cake”.

One year, for a reason I can’t even remember, I decided to shoot Super Targets for the singles and doubles.
By the end of the week when we shot the last doubles, I had to open the 3200 down low on my hip while I turned my nose away from the two ejecting empties. The smell by that time was past being a little annoying. It was downright obnoxious. They would break targets, but man, did they stink.
I think I still have a few buried in the reloading room.

As the great Roger Smith called it,,,, The Golden Years

 

And back then the big 3 cared more about putting out a great shell than they cared about how cheap they could make them.

 

I have been around a long enough to say this ......

In my opinion the entire flight of Trap targets has changed over the years ......

In the late 60's and early 70's you could see the second target in doubles, and some singles and handicap targets hit the ground without being shot at ...... The targets didn't hang in the air like a balloon ...... It was shoot fast or shoot it on the way down ...... Many new shooters would chase the targets all the way to the ground ......

A very high shooing shotgun was useless, because even fast shooters had no need for anything higher shooting than a Model 12 or 870 ......

The angles were wider ..... along with a low fast target that outran many new shooters ......