The 2015 ATA BOD meeting - results

The meeting Wednesday night was businesslike as usual. The situation with the State was discussed. Meetings with the local senator, representative, and multiple IDNR representatives including the boss has given the ATA confidence that we will be having the Grand American at the WSRC long into the future.

The ATA made 1.1 million in fiscal 2014. Most came from investments; the second largest contributor was the 2014 Grand American. Day-to-day operations were about a wash, expenses balancing income, as has been the case, and intention, for the last 20 years.

The number of shooters required for a "high score" half-yard punch was returned to what it had been for a long time, most recently 2012, fifteen. In 2013-2015 it had been 25 and only 25% of shoots have that many handicap participants and the shooters who want to move back were finding it hard to find enough shoots with a chance to get the yardage they were looking for. The change will result in an additional thousand shoots (0f 5200 total) where there will be enough shooters for the high-score half-yard.

Longer yardage and shell-speed changes were discussed in the zone meetings but were not brought up at the Annual, where it counts. The three-hole was not mentioned, as it has not been for 20 years.

It was a productive, relatively short, and informative meeting to anyone who cared to drop by. There were but a handful of us gawkers which I take to mean that few members who actually shoot are much worried about the way the ATA is being lead and governed.

N1H1

 

Thanks for the quick update, the tinfoil crowd will be out of bed soon to dismiss everything you observed.

 

What? No storming of the gates? No crashing the meeting of the Evil Empire by the down trodden peasants who have been under the heel of the big money makers? No calls for "no justice, no peace by the protesters sick and tired by the unfairness dished out by a he evil BOD and their lackeys known as the EC? No vote taken to return the ATA and GA to the Holy Land in the East?

What happened? Did the revolutionaries get lost trying to find Sparta?

Oh well, there is always next year.

.

 

Must be longsnot couldn't quit whining long enough to attend.

 

Thanks for the post H1N1.

 

N1H1 said,

"Longer yardage and shell-speed changes were discussed in the zone meetings but were not brought up at the Annual, where it counts. The three-hole was not mentioned, as it has not been for 20 years.

It was a productive, relatively short, and informative meeting to anyone who cared to drop by. There were but a handful of us gawkers which I take to mean that few members who actually shoot are much worried about the way the ATA is being lead and governed.

N1H1"

That would almost lead one to believe the 28,000 count membership of the ATA does not think these are important issues. Oh whoa is us.

 

Another stupid rule change returning the yardage requirement back to 15 shooters. That typically penalizes the small clubs and 75% of the shooters who don't want yardage-except for a $$$$$ return. Another step backward and nothing going forward!

 

The original proposal ( at the 2012 meeting) had been to raise the minimum to 50 and that was reduced to 25 by the BOD. They did not see any increase in interest in shooting handicap as a result of the change and so reverted back to the old standard by a vote of about 17/35 (as I remember but did not write down. )

Correcting a typo above, the number of handicap events annually is about 5800, not 5200. I regret the error.

N1H1

 

AZCO

You posted:

Please tell us how the 40,000 members that left the organization felt about those issues. What polling data did you use? Did you get the information from the meetings at your own state shoot which you have been boycotting?

If OH and PA have most of the shooters and your state is an extreme minority how does that affect your data collection?

Are you applying the unequal voting principal wherein the state you are from which you do not support has the same vote as a state with 10 times the shooters?

Please explain.

 

Andy, on the contrary, it was a Delegate from Mississippi who brought the motion to the floor on behalf of the small clubs in his state. Apparently the shooters who are attending small shoots do want yardage. The motion passed by a 3-1 margin. An FYI, the EC spoke in opposition to the motion.

I do not agree that shooters should get punches at shoots with fewer than 25 shooters. It results in shooters moving back with scores that don't necessarily demonstrate that the shooter has mastered their current yardage. It results in shooters moving back to a place where they are not competitive. Then in an attempt to even the field, things like 2 yard reductions are offered or requests for an expansion to 29-30 yards (as you know) are made to make the best shooters as non competitive as the benefactors of the easy punches.

 

Would you say it was a productive as the meetings in which you were instrumental in taking the sport our of trapshooting?

That lead to you being given your lifetime achievement award.

Jim Bradford, past ATA President, and Neil were able to get the misfire rule changed, and Neil was instrumental in getting the 3-hole target rule rescinded.

So after having that "productive" meeting are you happy with the results from you being instrumental in removing the sport in trapshooting?

 

FM

I used the same methods you did, "guess and by golly" and same number selection process you used, by "Make Up Anything I Want Insitute."

I'll start showing evidence, when you start doing the same for your wild exaggerations as well.
If the 50,000 ex ATA members who live in Ohio had not left, we would not have this problem.

The membership is what if is, 28,000 plus who decided to stay and carry on the membership.

Contrary to desired outcome, the ATA did not die and is not likely to, even though the 75,000 former Ohio ATA members decided to join the American Porch Shooters Organization.

One would think after 20-30 years of bellyaching you guys would grow up.

 

N1h1,

Did the yardage thing actually pass, and when will it be implemented?

FG,

Of the 40k, you claim, that left the association, how many are dead, unable to shoot, or lives changed so that they left amicably? What polling data or other research did you use? Did you compare any other activity that uses up so much time and money?

 

AZCO

Who has been in the ATA 30 years you refer to?

When were there 50,000 members in Ohio?

Previously you stated we did not need the membership that left as you said:
They were not committed anyway.
Should I assume they are not in your polling data?

FYI....to many in business losing 2/3 of your membership is dying. Not you. But you don't support your own state as you must not have the commitment either.

 

'06, no change in maximum yardage was talked about at the Annual Meeting. I did not attend any zone meetings but think it may have surfaced there as a possible (later) motion, whether at all five zone meetings I don't know. It's a good way to test the waters. In general, you don't want to make a motion at the "real" meeting which not not very, very likely to win, since the taint of earlier defeat will follow it from that point on whenever you try again.

N1H1

 

FG,

The 75, 000 Ohio shooters who quit ATA, no longer have a voice in it, therefore, nothing can be said for or about them. The face of the ATA today is the people who make up the 28,000 members. When people give up, walk off, throw in the towel, cash in their chips, leave the organization, their voices no longer matter or count.

If they were really interested in having things their way, the 99,000 former ATA members who have left since the changes of 3 hole to 2 and the move to Sparta, would have stayed and fought, no matter how long it took to overcome the evil Board of Directors decisions.

But no, the 125,000 former members pouted, quit and stayed home. If only 5% of you 140,000 disgruntled crybabies showed up at the Grand each year, marching with little signs that said "165,000 ATA ex members matter" then maybe the Grand would be back in Ohio, you could have a "Porch Shoot Event," and you would be happy shooting your 3 hole and 4 hole targets.

As it is, a number of ATA shooters today would think 3 hole, 4 hole refers to mega porta pottys and could not show you where Ohio is on the map.

Have a nice day.

 

AZCO

Ohioans are not jumping up and down to get what is not grand anymore.

Yet you post the silliest thing I have seen you post. Again dismissing the votes of those that voted to leave our sport.

You must be the CEO of the year in CO.

As you boycott your own state shoot.....does your voice matter?

 

I am an active ATA shooter. Nothing in the ATA rule book dismisses my voice for missing my State Shoot due to health reasons. You on the other hand, a non ATA member who cannot attend any ATA shoot, especially the Grand, can sit back there with the other 210,000 former ATA members from Ohio and cry your eyes out. You don't count if you don't have a membership card. Silly is as silly is, silly.

 

Funny, you use an actual number here.

That's idiotic. You must not be in business. The most important customer is the one you just lost. It takes a lot of work to get a customer.

 

I have no use for quitters. You don't matter when you give up. You are dead to the issue.

You really need to use a dictionary, smoking, you do not know the difference between a business for profit and a non profit membership orgainzation. That is not idiotic, that is reality.

Geez, no wonder you guys lost control of the ATA,the Grand and let a minority group yank it out from under you while napping.

 

If your prior post wasn't nutty enough, you've managed to top it with this. You simply don't know how the real world works.

Either business wants all the customers it can. Ever see all the stuff the NRA sends to members who let their dues lapse? Ever see what political parties send to prior donors?

 

Yes, I do know how the real world works, I do not know first hand like you the fantasy world in which you reside. It's been 20 years, time to move on, quit living in the past, accept what is today and you will live a lot longer.



You may continue your rending of clothes and nashing of teeth if you desire.

One more time, the ATA is not a business. If it were, the IRS would cancel it's 503(c)3 as a non profit organization which is. Some 275,000 former ATA members who reside in Ohio quit and quitters are losers, pure and simple. "Here's your sign."

 

So a silly motion from the MS delegate was acted on to the detriment of most of the smaller clubs in the entire US. By the way, MS had 70 active shooters who shot some Handicap targets last year while only 22 shot 1,000 or more. I suppose every shooter in MS must have refused that 2 yard reduction when it was offered too. If that's gonna save the Handicap event from obscurity this organization and it's thinking is more confused than ever!

 

"The ATA is not a business".Hmmmmm.

Maybe it's time to be run like one.


Regards....Gerald

 

No, it is a 501(c)3, a charity orgainzation with a tax exempt status. To run it like a business, making profits, would cause it to lose it's tax exempt status. You want to pay dues that go towards taxes? That will be income, property and sales taxes we will have to pay.

When you 375,000 thousand former ATA members start your own trap association, you can try it your way.

 

How many shoots do you think this will effect? Do you really think shooters will turn tail and run? Was there a major improvement in attendance when the minimum was raised to 25?

 

Sorry, but you don't have the first idea of what you're talking about. "Revenues" does not mean the same thing as "Profit."

 

You are the one who does not know the difference between a non profit as it is exempted by the IRS and a business for profit. Don't talk about stuff you know nothing about, it makes look twice as foolish as you are already.

Businesses are opereted for profit. They generate revenue and profits after taxes in order to make the owners of those businesses rich.

Encourage the 400,000 former ATA members who quit ATA to start your own trap shooting orgainzation and run it the way you see fit. The 28,000 ATA members who did not quit, will take care of "business" without your unqualified nonsense.

Why aren't you working, earning your minimum wages, paying taxes so you can support me with my SS check? I have another payment coming up on my motor home and I need money for diesel fuel. You stealing from the boss again?

 

Jo2 made a very good post, if some will stop long enough to read it and let it sink in.

The ATA wants to keep donors on the hook for money, while making shambles of the competition. It is faux-pride to believe earned yardage with a poor score is somehow better than just asking for it.

The current ATA mirrors the country now ... no 'middle-class' ... just those at the top, and those who want easy hand-outs.

 

If shooters want to move back in handicap let them shoot their way back. The thought used to be that you earned your yardage by demonstrating your ability. 96 still gets you a half and 97 a yard. You should shoot well and move back but today everyone wants to be on the 27 so we have to find ways to help them. I think shooters should always shoot from the yardage they are competitive at. Today it's a social function so we'll continue to see uncompetitive shooters on the 27 wanting Harlan moved to the 30 so they don't have to contend with him.

 

If a few shooters from MS wanted back so bad all they had to do was ask for it. The ATA will gladly oblige and assign them to the 25 yd. line. See, problem solved!

 

Oh, how the game has changed! They used to make fun of you for getting free yardage, now they beg for it!

 

Looks like a bunch of sandbaggers complaining that it's too easy to get yardage now!

 

Everyone wanting long yardage is probally the reason few play options today, they know they are back past their ability to be competitive. For those that don't want cheap yardage, all you have to do is avoid the little shoots. The new rule change will have little effect one way or the other.

 

once again more great move by the dumbasses at the ata. they cant get 25 shooters to shoot at small clubs now. but well you put a piece of xxx as vice president terry dean. him and that xxxxbag Danny have done more to hurt smaller clubs than anybody. the latter was the biggest Cheat that ever came out of kentucky. i hope they hurry up and board the whole place up.

 

Great to hear from you after so long, nitrogetsome!

Neil

 

Tell us what you really think!

First words out of a local small ATA club manager tonight was "what a bunch of idiots"!

 

I suppose it is really nice to have a convenient scapegoat.... Doesn't matter which side of anything you choose to support or fight just pick a scapegoat and avoid the real issue and real meaningful discussion.
I suspect that at many shoots at small clubs even 15 registered shooters would be hard come by. A recent shoot at a small club near here had 9 shooters for handicap.................
There are real issues that impact Trapshooting as an activity. One is ACTIVE membership in local clubs. A local club has a registered shoot tomorrow. Its going to be fun, the birds are registered, attendance will be low.. Why??? Nothing to do with 3 hole targets, yardage reductions, who is vice president or the meeting of the ATA BOD. Less than 20 have paid for yearly membership this year..... about 400 life members and over half are dead and most of the rest do not shoot.... some of them do drop by once in a while...to sit on the sidelines and bitch and moan about whatever... Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. must be the fault of the ATA BOD. Yup, that's it.... Larry

 

Seems to me the whole yardage punch issue might have been made a little more palatable to many if the stipulation that no punches would be awarded for any score under 90 was included. After all, that is the trigger point for a reduction is it not? Maybe a little common sense could help, or maybe this idea would result in a lot of 89's being shot, who knows? I think this limitation would ease the concern of many however. I personally have been the receipiant of a 1/2 yard for a blazing 84 in my career, I just accepted it and moved on. Started on the 18 as a sub jr in 1965 and made it to the 27 at age 18. Earned a lot of it 1/2 yard at a time until the last 2 1/2 on one day. I also wish we could look at those who run 50 straight within a 100 event or 3 25's within a hundred and don't get yardage now. As a former shoot cashier those were always suspicious and probably should have received some yardage.

 

The 'ATA' is 'in charge' of 'their' shoot format ... and shooters are not interested in their offerings ... so who's 'fault' is it ?????????? the shooters ????????????

League Trapshooting, 'games' Trapshooting, and practice Trapshooting are all doing OK .... and the ATA is not. So how can it be anything BUT the ATA leadership ????????????

You CAN NOT force people to GO where they do not want to .... and SHOOT under conditions where a win is out-cheating the cheaters.

They have ALL the shooters interested in a D-class win with an A-class score .... and ALL the 'local shooters' that want 'earned yardage' with a 79 or 80 handicap score .... so if they are interested in MORE shooters, and RETURN shooters .... they need to change their thinking.

"convenient scapegoat" ... no ... self-serving people bleeding the bank account ... yes

 

Whether its ATA or club activities "all doing ok" does not represent what is taking place. It seems that User 1 has the opinion that non ATA shoots are doing fine and ATA shoots are not. I am sure he is basing that on what he see's in his area but that is not the existing situation I observe locally. Numbers are down at ATA but numbers are down more at the "fun and games" events. I suspect most folks that belong to ATA start shooting with friends at club events and do not start out striving for yardage and recognition. ATA (or PITA) at some point will have to recognize that reduced involvement at local events equates to less membership and shooting at their events. Larry

 

Larry,

I am not sure I understand your post correctly, but if I belong to ATA or PITA, I would not want me dues to go to attracting people for local events that are not ATA or. PITA. When people do not have to pay dues or fees for membership, then the membership declines, even more from free riders. Now, I could entertain an "open event" to entice on ATA shooters to come out to give registered shooting a try, but ATA will not allow it and it might be hard to police it to prevent abuse.

If you are talking about the local events being an ATA or a PITA event, no additional amount of involvement beyond sanctioning the event will help. Like politics, all shooting is local. It requires the club having the ability attracting a crowd. We can all find shoot dates listed through the ATA or our local State affiliation, but what is more likely me to be drawn to a shoot is the mailing I get In my mailbox describing the event and listing entry fees, start times and amenities.

Many clubs do not want to go the extra step to attract people. Little things like not enough restrooms, no food, water or bad food, weeds, no shaded seating outside, dirty or run down lounge are the little things that turn people off from returning to a club, even if they don't know the reasons they will not go back.

 

" I am sure he is basing that on what he see's in his area but that is not the existing situation I observe locally."

Read your own words and think about it ....

You have no idea how large "my area" is .... and then follow with "but that is not the existing situation I observe locally" ....

It is hard for some to understand what it is like to live in Trapshooting 'Heaven' .... but "I" can Trapshoot 7 days a week at different Clubs each day, within a 75 mile radius of my house ... most much less than that. Many days "I" have options on where to shoot, and what type of Trapshooting "I" want to do.

So .... FWIW "my area" may be different from what 'others' may see.

 

Then you're a dope who's bad for the gun community, the shooting sports and the shotgun sports.

You should think about the consequences of your positions.

 

AZCOTRAP,
You are very fortunate to have so many options for your recreation and in my post I made direct reference that I did not know the situation for User 1. A one size fits all approach from an organization as diverse as the ATA is not going to work all the time but a rule book is what everyone goes by. There is a process and protocol to use to make changes and it sounds like MS made a proposal the vote approved. Because they are not part of "shooter heaven" does not matter, they went to the meeting and caused a change. The point I was trying to make in reference to ATA and PITA is that shooters start out as individuals in whatever part of the world they are in and then migrate on to organizations....... the club events are suffering in the world I shoot in and it carries over to registered events for other organizations. The health of any organization depends upon its foundation and roots....... Larry

 

larry, you must know a thing or two about rule changes just for the heck of it. I suppose you also supported those free two yard reductions too. Did that do anything to help those small clubs increase attendance or give 'em another kick in the butt. And you wonder why more small clubs are dropping ATA shoots altogether. Hasn't helped attendance either at the ones still around-has it?

 

The above statistics and yet those few shooters as a group have as much voting power as all of PA. The system is a joke.

 

Really? You take the "freeloader" approach and tell me my position is bad for the gun community? I bet you are one of those freeloaders who enjoys the protection of NRA efforts through court battles, but does not belong, right?


I'll say it one more time, dopier than I, join up, pay your dues, then you will have a voice in the matter.

 

Agreed Larry, But nothing will destroy an enity, more than the poison spread within. All day long I read stuff by disgruntled people. Some are who are not members, but have a real hatred for something they do not participate in, jealousy I suppose, who knows. But if the continued drum is "can't" instead of "can do" then failure is the only result. People complain all the time about expenditures of the ATA, so it is not very likely your proposal will gain any traction. The membership drop is another complaint which would cause further loss of members with money spent outside the ATA. Just ask DLS and his good buds, Who complain about membership loss and money expenditures all the time on this site.

Don't shoot the messager.

 

You should really stop talking. You're going off the deep end.

 

I' m not talking, I am messaging with typed word. If you don't want confrontation, don't provoke people. Don't ask for welfare from me then condemn me when I refuse. I must be right, you did not deny.

Hmmm, guess I will make use of this "Ignore" feature for the first time.

Goodbye.

 

Oleolliedawg,
I do know that within the rules there are provisions for votes, ideas, changes and discussions. From reading posts here and on other sites it seems to me that only a few use what is available to attempt to change things. That is not uncommon with both large and small groups. As to my supporting the yardage reductions, no longer than I have been in ATA it really is not something I have even thought much about, I only shoot from the 20 now. I do know that it is up to each individual to accept or refuse the offer of reductions.... seems it has been left up to the shooter. Again I address what takes place locally, the reduction in ATA events by our small clubs has nothing to do with ATA, it is totally a function of reduced club membership and participation by what members there are. We have a registered ATA event tomorrow, I drafted two other shooters (one is ATA the other is our friend) and we loaded the traps and traphouses. a fine young woman (an ATA shooter) took it upon herself to set up the computers and so forth (with no help). Tomorrow morning will be a demonstration of another event with low attendance and little or no help....... not the fault of ATA or BOD or EC, just the result of low local involvement and willingness to help. It is my opinion based on my personal observations in this part of the world that unless the club can strengthen itself any effort by ATA or PITA goes un-noticed and unappreciated.
AZCOTRAP made a very good point...... "poison spread from within". Whether ATA or some tiny two trap club in the middle of nowhere, the future of the effort has to be based on a firm foundation of dedicated, active and proactive members. I do see lots of whine and complain but I see very little willingness to take an active role.... Larry

 

Yes, small club management suffers from lack volunteers and lack of talent. The old timers are just that-burned out even if they were successful at one time. The law of diminishing returns also has an effect-fewer people makes for even fewer people. Successful small club management means thinking out of the box. If you think the answer for increased attendance is simply offering a practice ATA shoot without options and prizes you've already lost. Set yourself apart, spend money on postage and programs, use that ATA average book as your bible and provide great targets with good food. Shooters are a finite resource and you must attempt to draw all you can.

I hate to brag but when I ran our little 6-trap club we had those traps filled from 10AM to at least 6PM. Our Sunday shoots usually drew 50 squads. Of course, that was around 20 years ago and I doubt we could match that today. First thing needed is to rid yourself of those miserable old pullers and replace them with high school girls if possible. Cute girl pullers will always pull more male shooters and younger ones too.

Enough success stories for today. Think of what we found really worked!

 

Any organization chooses a path....... either to facilitate and enhance the objectives of its members or to control and exploit its members.
You and your club obviously chose to facilitate.
Our pullers are electronic, we tried the hiring of scorekeepers, I am here to tell you Oregon has more damn rules and regulations pertaining to the hiring of individuals under legal age than we thought was possible. It is a different world now...... Larry

 

AZCO,

You should go back and read your posts. the longer you talk the dumber you sound. Roger C.

 

The State of Illinois is bankrupt, the lease for the WSRC has expired and all Neil can tell us is that
the meeting Wednesday night was business like as usual. Sounds like Bull Shit to me.
Of course I realize none of them know what the hell is going on , so I suppose it is business like usual.
Birddog

 

Lew:

"the lease for the WSRC has expired"

Well, "will expire in 2026" to be perfectly accurate.

Those here who don't like my Annual Meeting reportage are pretty-much stuck with my version if they want any at all, since I was there and, their chest-beating aside, the "invaders" weren't. That didn't surprise anyone, I hope. I'll be doing the same from Sparta next year. Watch for it!

N1H1